English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-09-06

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12:36 AM

Hello, Strangers.

Oh, they’re gone.

Did they post it as a question?

looks

@Mazura You could post that as a question, although it’s pretty basic.

@Mazura Probably [ˈmɒsˈaɪslɪj] out of Alec Guiness’s RP-speaking mouth. Most Americans would use [ˈmɔːsˈaɪsli], which is phonetically different but not phonemically so.

1:09 AM

@tchrist I don't think either of these are worthy of a real question. I just wanted to say, here, chew on that for a while. Thank you for obliging (in British and American, nonetheless).

RP is spoken only by about 2% of Brits if I recall correctly.

It might be 5%, although I doubt it. It’s quite narrow.

Remember also though that Alec Guinness could play with accents quite well, and he talked the way he wanted (or his directors wanted) for that part.

It’s a clipped patrician accent.

But the basic phonemes are pretty plain.

He may be raising the diphthong more that I’ve indicated here, but unless you can hear the difference between the two different vowel clusters in most North American pronunciations of tight and died — and consider these different phonemes not just different phonetics — it really doesn’t matter that much.

Most people can be brought to hear the difference with practice and training, but I don’t think anybody ever considers them different phonemes. They’re just allophones.

I have no clue what phonemically means (even more so after reading the definition), but I don't feel so bad knowing that linguists can't even agree what they are.

A phoneme is what you think you’re saying. Or that someone else is.

For example, did you can be pronounced with different phonetics. It can become something like did ju. But that doesn’t make it a different word. If you change the phoneme, it is a different word.

You can change the phonetics without changing the thing that people perceive. That’s what allophones are.

One abstract, broad, mental phoneme has many possible physical, concrete phonetic realizations called allophones.

A phoneme is all in your mind, not your mouth.

The k in cat is a phoneme?

Well, yes.

But that doesn't tell you much.

International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects

This concise chart shows the most common applications of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) to represent English language pronunciations. See Pronunciation respelling for English for phonetic transcriptions used in different dictionaries. AuE, Australian English CaE, Canadian English GA, General American InE, Indian English IrE, Irish English NZE, New Zealand English RP, Received Pronunciation (Standard in the United Kingdom) ScE, Scottish English SAE, South African English SSE, Standard Singapore English WaE, Welsh English == Chart == This chart gives a partial system of diaphonemes for...

user image

The thing they are calling a diaphoneme will do as a phoneme. The (allo)phones are what really gets said.

For example, the /k/ it cat is actually the aspirated (breathy) allophone, [kʰ].

Unlike the one in scat which is not aspirated.

But here's the thing.

If you don’t say that puff of air for cat, people will still know exactly what you said. They’ll just think you have a funny accent.

That’s because changing the phone doesn’t change the word.

But if you use a different phoneme, like the g from gas and say gat, now you will confuse people.

See the difference?

Consonants have some variation in English, but nothing so crazy as the vowels.

If you read down to the vowels chart in the page I gave above, you'll see what I mean.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I think he failed his saving throw versus confusion.

1:25 AM

I'd have to study that list for quite some time to do what you did with Mos Eisley. The first list makes sense; eyes glazing over the farther I go...

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist Pardon?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 joke joke

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist I don't

That sentence doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, it sort of does.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It’s a D&D or fantasy rôle playing thing.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

But I don't know who he is.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh

1:26 AM

He is Mazura.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

right.

Hi @Mazura :)

Oh lulz... yes!

I didn't know who he was either :) sup

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist How is it not phonemically different?

Even though the British accent we call Received Pronunciation and General American would use slightly different vowels for Mos Eisley, nobody would be in doubt about what words were said. That’s what allophones buy you.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Because they both think they're saying Mos Eisley?

1:28 AM

Yes. And both think the other is, too.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Sorry, I just now went back far enough to understand what's going on here.

Okay.

Basically, Americans have a broader vowel in moss than Brits have.

And the RP finish at the end of a word like silly or really or dicey is very slightly different.

The height of the first vowel may also vary a minute amount.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

RP has more tongue action.

...

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Particularly in really.

1:31 AM

No triple-tonguing in this chat.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Unless the RP in my head is wrong.

Well, Sir Alec may be flapping at times. He was of that generation.

Tolkien did as well.

Let me restate.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I wonder if they wore long strands of pearls.

He may have the Italian or Spanish r in places.

Very

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Short, fringed dresses.

1:31 AM

I've critically failed and lost my next turn. Have a good evening, y'all ;p

Night.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Um, I'm sorry.

I feel responsible.

I like your avatar. And good night.

puce

1 hour later…

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:00 AM

puce, puce, char-treuse

I don't understand the people who confound those.

Confound? Hm.

Just came from answering a question on pt.se and leaving a comment on es.se, both in their respective tongues, and my brain may be temporarily latinoconfuso.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Chartreuse sounds like a purplish color.

Conflate?

3:15 AM

Yes, that.

Chartreuse is yellow-green and puce is purple-brown.

But you get people doing weird things with them both.

mac(tchrist)% colorgrep chartreuse
chartreuse: a pale apple-green.

mac(tchrist)% colorgrep puce
puce: Of a flea-color; purple brown, or brownish purple.

Searching for chartreuse dress on Google Images is ok.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

The Magritte apple.

And its ill-fitting hotel room.

But searching for puce dress includes some green stuff. Plus the rest is mostly mauve anyway, even rose.

Ever notice that the hard colors are always French? :)

Then of course there’s vermilion, which ever since The Silmarillion was published, and the band Marillion created, a lot of people keep spelling wrong. :)

It had two l’s until the 19th century. I don’t know where it lost one by the way.

> vermilion /vɚˈmɪljən/, sb. and a.
Forms: ɑ. 3 vermelyon, 6 -eleon, -eleoun; 4–5 vermilyon, 5 -ylyoun, 5–6 -ylyon(e, 6 -ylion; 4–5 vermilioun, 5– vermilion (6–7 -milian, 7 virmilion). β. 4 vermeillone, 5 -elone, 5–7 -elon, 6 Sc. -eloun; 4–5 vermylone, 4 fer-, 5 vermyloun, 5–6 vermylon; 4–5 vermulon, 4–5 vermilon(e, -iloun; also 6 vermelonde, Sc. wermeling, -myling. ɣ. 6–9 vermillion, 7 virmillion.

Etymology: a. AFr. and OFr. vermeillon, vermillon, vermilo(u)n, etc. (mod.Fr. vermillon, = Prov. vermeillon, vermillon, vermelho, Cat. bermello, Sp. bermellon, bermillon, vermellon, Pg. vermelha…

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

In the [French river].

Peut-être.

Hm, it looks like Modern French lost it.

Vermelhão (em francês: vermilion; do francês antigo vermeillon) é um pigmento opaco alaranjado que tem sido usado desde a antiguidade. O pigmento ocorrente na natureza é conhecido como cinabre. Quimicamente, o pigmento é sulfeto mercúrico (HgS) e como muitos compostos de mercúrio é tóxico. Hoje, vermelhão é na maior parte comumente produzido artificialmente reagindo mercúrio com enxofre derretido. A maior parte do vermelhão produzido naturalmente vem de cinabre extraído na China, daí seu nome alternativo vermelho China ou vermelho chinês. == Referências... ==

Maybe that’s why have just one now.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 So you were right all along! :)

Vermillon (couleur)

Le vermillon est une couleur rouge éclatante, plus ou moins orangée. Son nom est tiré du français vermeil, terme utilisé pour désigner un rouge éclatant, légèrement plus foncé que l'incarnat et tirant sur le rouge cerise, et qui lui-même vient du latin vermiculus, une teinture rouge obtenue à partir de la cochenille Kermes vermilio parasite du Chêne Kermès. On distingue la forme naturelle appelée cinabre (du minerai de mercure de cinabre), très difficile à trouver dans la croûte terrestre, et le vermillon ou vermillon de mercure, sa forme artificielle à partir de sulfure de mercure. Le vermillon...

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist Hourra!

Woops. Bad translation.

3:28 AM

> VERMILLON, subst. masc.
Étymol. et Hist. 1. a) Ca 1160 vermeillon « poudre fine de cinabre, ou sulfure de mercure, d'un rouge vif tirant sur l'orangé; couleur extraite de cette substance » (Eneas, éd. J.-J. Salverda de Grave, 432: Sanz vermeillon et sanz azur); ca 1165 (Troie, éd. L. Constans, 3071: Azur ne teint ne vermeillon); 1327 (Archives du Nord, B 3271, fo25 rods IGLF: 1 libvre de vermelon); mil. xive(Roques t. 1, IV, no9031: vermiculum vermillon); b) 1854 vermillon d'antimoine (E. Mathieu-Plessy, loc. cit.); 2. ca 1165 « couleur rouge vif » (Troie, 30008: cort mantel D'un vermeill…

Well, I dunno.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Merveilleux!

> d'un rouge vif tirant sur l'orangé

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

No, my translation of 'hooray' into 'hourra'. Well, the goog's translation.

Scarlett, my dear.

Damn, I lost my quote.

But I think of scarlet as brighter (oranger?) than vermilion. Oh well.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

user image

Scarlet tanager.

4:00 AM

A wonderful bird.

user image

Not my picture, but a frequent sight by me at the right time of year: a rufous hummer on scarlet gilia.

Ipomopsis aggregata

Ipomopsis aggregata is a species of flowering plant in the phlox family (Polemoniaceae), commonly known as scarlet trumpet, scarlet gilia, or skyrocket because of its scarlet red flowers with lobes curving back as if blown back by rocketing through the air. == Name == Since its discovery in 1814 by Frederick Pursch, the plant has undergone many name modifications. The current scientific name of "Ipomopsis," Latin for "similar to Ipomoea" or morning glories, refers to its similarities between the morning glories’ similar red tubular flowers. "Aggregata," "brought together" in Latin refers to its...

> Depending on elevation, height can range from 12 inches, in Rocky Mountain alpine areas, to over 5 feet, in areas of southern Texas.

I had no idea it was ever more than a foot tall!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist wow!

2 hours later…

5:49 AM

> A war cannot determine who is right, only who is left.

3

6:46 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer, offensive answer detected: "Upon" at the very beginning of a sentence by jasmine on english.stackexchange.com

6 hours later…

12:40 PM

Guesses are for comments. Answers are for answers. — Robusto 12 secs ago

1:06 PM

votes are for voters

1:56 PM

@JohanLarsson —Bertrand Russell

ty

2:26 PM

@JohanLarsson Oats are for oaters.

hmm, probably too advanced for me

@JohanLarsson Or the opposite.

:)

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto Mairzy dotes.

It was a @RegDwigнt-level response. A simple twist of words, substitution of something that rhymes irrespective of whether it makes sense or not. I might have to pay him royalties for it, now that I think of that. But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $3,000.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 And little lambsy divey.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:28 PM

@tchrist Speaking of phenomes.

No Matter What - Badfinger

3:02 PM

George Thorogood - Bad to the bone [Official]

@skillpatrol similar?

@JohanLarsson yes

smoother

@skillpatrol another

not sure which is the ~original

good question

maybe it is just blues

3:14 PM

yup, these kinda things are hard to track down...

3:43 PM

Howlin' Wolf - Back Door Man

4:05 PM

ty for wolf Rob, think it was the best thing I found in 2014

4:53 PM

Hi

High

Can you help me?

I can try, because I've a modest knowledge

Recently I submitted a paper for A and chose you for edits. it is my first paper and I am B.S student. I don't know that you are received from journal office or not, however I hope that my paper published in your journal.

There are some mistakes

4:56 PM

Its true From the perspective of grammar؟

Where?

you mean 'correct' not 'true', and no, it's not perfectly correct

what do you mean with "received from journal office or not'"?

I just to understand that part first

Yeah it's not entirely clear what you mean.

The words do not fit together.

Now I wonder in which language this paper is written.

"I am a B.S student.", "however I hope that my paper will be published in your journal." for the beginning at least

5:02 PM

"choose you for edits"?
"I am BS student"?
"that you are received"?
"my paper published"?

@crl Or that it has been published. We don't know.

maybe he's addressing this to another submitter?

@Cerberus right

I can't speak English good.

you don't speak it well yet, but try to use a translator/dictionnary (wordreference.com, linguee.com, even translate.google.com)

5:22 PM

Wow, actual people here. Everywhere else is pretty quiet.

5:35 PM

we are just virtual

5:48 PM

@crl You're virtual?

6:37 PM

Burning Man Live Stream

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

7:18 PM

@tchrist not having any this year?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Health issues.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I'm sorry.

Thanks.

1 hour later…

8:48 PM

@tchrist Wow, I wonder what all those people are doing, milling around in the sand.

There seem to be a surprising number of people riding around on bikes.

@FaheemMitha There is no sand.

@FaheemMitha It’s the best way to get around.

@tchrist Oh, that's not sand? My mistake.

The playa is made up of dust.

I was just wondering where they were going...

Dust?

Dust.

Alkali flats.

8:53 PM

@tchrist Oh.

The feed is very jerky.

> The Black Rock Desert is a flat, prehistoric lakebed, composed of a hardpan alkali, ringed by majestic mountains. Daytime temperatures routinely exceed 100°F and the humidity is extremely low. Because the atmosphere is so dry you may not feel particularly warm, but you’ll be steadily drying up. Sunscreen, lip balm and lotion are key to your comfort. At nearly 4,000 feet above sea level, you will burn much faster and more severely than at lower elevations.

survival.burningman.org/your-survival-in-brc/the-elements

@tchrist I've never been to such a place. Thanks for the information.

Black Rock Desert

The Black Rock Desert is a semi-arid region (in the Great Basin shrub steppe eco-region), of lava beds and playa, or alkali flats, situated in the Black Rock Desert-High Rock Canyon Emigrant Trails National Conservation Area, a silt playa 100 miles (160 km) north of Reno that encompasses more than 300,000 acres (120,000 ha) of land and contains more than 120 miles (200 km) of historic trails. It is in the northern Nevada section of the Great Basin with a lakebed that is a dry remnant of Pleistocene Lake Lahontan. The average annual precipitation (years 1971-2000) at Gerlach (extreme south-west...

It is surreal, a blank page upon which can ever year be written new tales of wonder and marvel, and sometimes of despair.

It floods in winter.

@tchrist Sounds like it.

Why do they choose to have it there? Doesn't sound terribly habitable.

It is completely flat. There are no rocks or trees or gullies or slopes. It is composed of soft silt, powdery dust.

It is completely wide open.

You can have laser light shows bouncing of the mountains at night.

You can shoot up fireworks anywhere with no fear.

People can run around as though they are on the beach by day.

It also takes some time to get there. This provides a mental transition, and the isolation has other benefits.

You don’t have strays. It is easy to patrol the perimeter. You can put up a landing strip. You don't have to argue about radio frequencies.

9:04 PM

@tchrist Strays?

Non-participants wandering in.

@tchrist oh

You can ride your bike everywhere.

Hmm, somebody just lit a fire.

You can create a city that is exactly as you would like it.

@FaheemMitha Perhaps you missed the first word in Burning Man. :)

9:05 PM

The feed doesn't show any construction.

@tchrist Isn't that just a name?

Well, that was done before.

@FaheemMitha No.

Although when the Man goes, the fire is so intense that mini-tornadoes are generated.

There are uncountably many fire things there.

@tchrist oh

Plus there are the braziers at the major camps and crossroads, fed by firewood, to keep people warm at night. It gets very, very cold. Or can.

Is it starting or ending, or somewhere in the middle?

This is the zenith. Tonight is.

9:08 PM

So where is the city?

The day is a wonder and joy, but the night is a hundred times better.

It is northeast of Reno, Nevada.

user image

The feed looks like it is down around 8:00 and pointing NE out into the Playa. You cannot see the city itself from that shot. Most of the Festival is non-city, so to speak.

user image

See now why people ride bikes to get places?

user image

That’s why they have it where they have it. You could do that nowhere else.

You can find infinite images on Google Images for "Burning Man" or "Black Rock City".

But most are of the day. The night is the true wonder.

user image

user image

See?

This is what it will look like tonight; this is from a Saturday:

user image

Do "Burning Man night" at Google Images, and look through some.

@tchrist I see. Ok.

An aerial image of the city might be more interesting. But obviously difficult to arrange.

You really have to have this out in the middle of nowhere.

You mean a feed?

Google Images has a lot for "burning man aerial view".

A feed would be hard to keep up there.

9:23 PM

@tchrist Yes, a feed.

There's a drone video on youtube, not live.

@tchrist True.

This is from this year:

Drone's eye view of Burning Man 2015

@tchrist well, it's certainly colorful.

It is that.

It's all donated time and money and materials, a cooperative endeavour. It would be incredibly expensive if it weren't done that way.

I remember one camp with a really big green laser cost over $100k to put on, what with all the power requirements and all.

It's a not-for-profit thing, and no commercialism is allowed.

There are some monetary grants for art projects.

9:27 PM

@tchrist I see some constructions. But they don't look particularly semi-circular.

What do you mean?

@tchrist did you make any useful "professional" contacts there?

@tchrist In the drone video.

I made a lot of unprofessional contacts. :) All the hackers I knew there I'd met before.

What I see does not look a lot like the semi-circular "city".

@tchrist Ah, ok. Purely social, then.

@FaheemMitha You're supposed to have fun. This is the point.

9:29 PM

@tchrist Having fun is always a good thing. Not enough of it in this world.

The giant letters spelling out BELIEVE look a little out of place.

You can find anything there.

10:05 PM

@tchrist What, anything? How about, really, really good chocolate? Or illuminated manuscripts? Maybe a first edition of the Principia?

1 hour later…

11:25 PM

@FaheemMitha Yes, anything. You can certainly find really, really good chocolate. I haven't come upon the others, but I have heard live organ music and live cello music, both Bach. There are art exhibits where your other two could fit.

@tchrist Ok. :-)

11:40 PM

Hello.

Hi.

What's up?

The moon?

Yup. How are you?

This is imo. a sign the sick times we live in, where people enjoy censorship and lack a sense of humour: After outcry, “edutainment” game removes slave-Tetris mode

I'm good, browsing the tubes. You?

Fine thanks.

11:48 PM

@Cerberus Barely. It rose at 1:10 am with a waning crescent.

Your time.

Hmm.

I never keep up with the moon.

How not?

I am a different kind of dog.

wunderground.com/q/zmw:00000.1.06240

No shape-shifting needed.

11:50 PM

Don't you want to know when it's a bright night or a dark night? How will you know whether to bring your flashlight?

I like to know when I have to catch Randy early.

They really want to be out when the moon is near full.

What about clouds?

Clouds?

I have over 300 days of sun a year.

The number of overcast nights could be counted on your fingers.

Orly?

I need lights on my bike moon or no moon.

^

11:53 PM

Or no moon?

Ew, it's raining at your house!

What's that about?

Moonless

What is this, November there? I hate timezones.

@tchrist I fear you are getting too caught up in our room's normal description.

For posterity: The Incomprehensible Room.

8

It is September everywhere.

It is always September on Stack Overflow.

11:57 PM

Why so?

Eternal September = endless stream of dumb questions from freshmen.

Ok

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Sep '156

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