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6:03 PM
it's frightening how close to accurate and relevant that lecture is to my job
"SELENIUM SELENIUM!" -- scary
 
Bob
@jokerdino Is it supposed to be hard to understand?
 
@Bob I can't understand a lot of those words if I am not paying enough attention.
 
Bob
o.O
the accent or the topic? or a combination?
 
The accent and the stress on words.
 
probably the drony voice
 
6:06 PM
and well, he is just putting me to sleep.
 
he's saying you give instructions to Selenium in Java the same way you give instructions to a junior tester in English
 
Bob
@jokerdino well, he's actually not that bad. I've had worse lecturers as far as sleepiness goes
 
Ah.
He is too loud for me to fall asleep to.
And that chorus.
 
Bob
...are you watching a different video from me?
or a different part of the video? o.O
 
The 3 min video?
Or the one after that?
 
Bob
6:08 PM
...oh
I clicked the 1hr16min video
-_-
 
Lol
 
Bob
watching the 3min one
WTF
 
There that's the proper response
 
I just don't like that all these H1-Bs keep coming in here taking all the USA jobs >_< that's my only beef lol
we don't go $60k into debt only to be left looking for a job because hundreds of thousands are taken by foreign workers who do the same job or worse for half the pay because they're a captive audience under threat of being deported if they don't take whatever's given them
 
Apparently, these telugu people are the most competent IT professionals in all of India.
 
6:10 PM
@jokerdino that's frightening
 
Microsoft, Facebook and Google are all setting up offices in their capital city.
 
Bob
@allquixotic your bigger problem is how much the universities charge
and hospitals too, come to think of it
 
Google is apparently opening the second largest office there
 
we have a few Telugu people here
 
@allquixotic I do believe a handful of them are extremely talented.
 
6:13 PM
@jokerdino sure, but because they're willing to work for cheaper, even the less-skilled ones (of which there are tons being churned out of universities in the United States, too, don't get me wrong), look way more appetizing to hiring managers than having to pay a living wage to a USAian.
 
That's the problem with free movement of labour.
Or human trafficking.
 
A lot of them only come here for about a sixth of their life -- maybe 10-15 years -- then go back to India, having lived like paupers here to save up money in the bank, then take it back to India and live like kings.
They don't contribute much to our community because they can't afford to. Donating, etc. When we take up donations for helping local schools, etc., I only see the managers and up contributing. The regular line employees? No.
 
@allquixotic Not to forget the big dowry package they attract for simply being US-return.
 
damn cat lying on the keyboard again
3
 
hehe @Oli s cat does that too
 
6:16 PM
@Mokubai That cat is insistent upon equality. He's trying to tell you, "we should be given equal rights!"
You have Martin Luther Cat, Jr. under your very own roof
 
@allquixotic If the white collars can't do that, wonder what the blue collars in Middle east do.
 
@allquixotic Well, he's rubbish at games, and his code is only marginally better than mine so :P
 
And look, we even have a dowry calculator.
 
@jokerdino What's that? Dowry package?
> caste
*closes tab*
 
@allquixotic dowry package is the boat load of money and jewellery you loot from your in-laws.
 
6:20 PM
To be honest what I have is the worlds daftest cat, this is how he sleeps:
 
@jokerdino I figured that's what it was, but I was surprised that there would be some kind of a dowry for being "US return".
@Mokubai hehehehehe :D
 
@allquixotic the marriage happens when the groom is still working abroad.
 
this professor dips into Telugu randomly :D
 
and continues to milk money after returning home.
 
Bob
> It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. --Edsger W. Dijkstra
 
6:22 PM
@jokerdino any Indian women come to US as H-1B and try to stay here by marrying into the US? :P
I need to know of them :P
 
@allquixotic most Indian women that come to US come only as wives :P
 
@jokerdino Bleh.
 
@Bob You must forward that quickly to my university.
 
@allquixotic Thank you :D
 
@allquixotic If I hear about any of them near your state, I'll let you know :3
 
6:26 PM
@jokerdino lol thanks
 
But I think these women are way too choosy.
 
probably!
so are the locals :P
to get less choosy I'd have to go out to the mid-west states I think
 
Don't the foreigners prefer to mingle with their own community?
 
"OMG! ANOTHER PERSON?!?!?"
@jokerdino very much so.
 
Any photo I see on Facebook is just Indians grouped up in a coffee shop.
 
6:29 PM
lol
they really tend to keep to themselves, except for my boss, who mingles with everyone
 
Even the ones who are settled down with a green card and stuff don't mingle about.
My uncle is raising kids there and he's like I don't have much american friends.
 
@allquixotic You have a foreign boss?
@HackToHell does he talk money in dollars?
 
I can't make generalizations, but empirically, I find that most of my Indian friends who "mingle" more with USAians are from Gujarat.
@jokerdino Gujarati boss, yes
 
@jokerdino No idea, though he probably does
he's been there some 15 years
 
I rarely even see the Tamil folks apart from absolutely necessary work communications, though I try to be friendly ._.
@HackToHell ^^
 
6:32 PM
lol
boo tamilians
 
lol
 
@allquixotic lol, funny you say that. Most Indians don't even seem to mingle outside their language speakers.
 
@jokerdino Oh, it's different here. I see the Gujarati/Tamil/Telugu/Hindi people mingling very well and chatting and going out and walking, etc. all the time here. They all speak English in a large group. :P
In small groups they'll speak their native tongue
But any more than 3 people and always English
 
Have you ever tried to sneak in and pretend to be Indian?
 
English did sorta unite India
 
6:34 PM
(Sorry, bad joke)
 
Too many stupid langiages
 
@allquixotic lol I actually laughed.
 
@allquixotic spray on tan ? :P
 
Seriously though. Even about 70% of the USAian-native coworkers are black (African-American). I'm one of the very few white-skinned people here.
Customer employees are completely different.
 
Bob
@allquixotic if you ever try ZFS root, where the instructions say chroot (and bind-mounting procfs etc) use systemd-nspawn instead
at the very least, it got rid of some errors from the locale stuff o.O
 
6:37 PM
Customer is much more balanced, diversity-wise. Yes, they have Indians, too. And blacks. And Asians. And everything else. But they also have a good share of whites.
I think it's because they're Government and probably have "quotas".
It's almost 20%/20%/20%/20%/20%, between whites, African-Americans, Mexicans, Indians and CJK (Chinese/Japanese/Korean) at customer.
Here, it's 50-60% Indian, 30% African-American, very small percent CJK, and rest white.
 
I find it peculiar Indians are not categorized under Asian.
 
I meant CJK, sorry :P
not sure why my company hires so few from CJK community
there are a lot of them here in my area
 
So, Indians are still Asians then?
 
@jokerdino Sure! They live on the continent of Asia, right?
 
Yeah.
 
6:40 PM
@Bob does that mean you're booted to ZFS now?
 
But I don't seem to relate when they talk about Asians on a platform like reddit.
 
Bob
@allquixotic still installing
be funny if that was actually the issue
but I don't think so
 
@jokerdino The stereotype of "Asians" in the U.S. really means Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
 
Bob
also have to monkey-patch the GRUB kernel parameters
 
As I understand, their culture is a lot different from India.
 
Bob
6:41 PM
at some point I need to figure out the GRUB config stuff so I'm not modifying the live version (overwritten on update)
 
I don't really know a lot about them. Hell, I barely know about half the cultures in my country.
 
Bob
also, I've SSH'd into the live image and am working from there... much better than the tiny vmware console without DPI scaling
turns out sshd was started by default but pubkey only
enabled password auth... it's just a test vm anyway
 
I should boot into Fedora at some point. I lost touch with these beautiful words like GRUB and SSH.
 
lol I'm listening to this lecture in the background
"HELLO?" every few minutes
trying to keep their attention so hard
 
lol
 
6:48 PM
the Telugu bits don't help
he keeps drilling in the problem of "lack of experts" about automation -- the funny thing is, any decent or even mediocre programmer can learn automation very well
and probably more thoroughly than someone trained in just automation by rote
 
I gotta go sleep now. Talk to you guys next month.
 
:(
next month?!
 
That's how often I seem to visit this room :/
 
Bob
@jokerdino gnight
I probably should too, but... zfs...
still building that module
 
I wonder how Bob seem to stay up later than me every time despite living in a worser time zone.
 
Bob
6:56 PM
yes, I accidentally hit pause instead of printscr
 
is that inside VM?
 
Bob
SSH into a local VM, yes
and then chroot (really, systemd-nspawn)'d into the installed dir
 
we're near the same spot in our config bobby, except i'm not zfs root
having trouble getting zfs mounted on boot
on jessie 8.1
 
Bob
@allquixotic what, you compiling too? :P
 
@Bob already done
 
Bob
6:58 PM
ah
I'm only seeing 5% CPU usage :\
wonder where the bottleneck is
 
I borked my metal Fedora install hard enough it is not detecting any network connectivity. Should try ethernet cables..
 
Bob
oh there it is
 
@Bob, are you into Hurd too?
 
Bob
...no?
 
he literally gives the outline notes for them to write down on paper for the last 20 minutes of class @_@
 
7:05 PM
It happens in every single class, I tell you.
 
really??
here we are expected to take notes while the professor speaks
and instead of everyone repeating what the professor says, individuals raise their hands and ask questions
 
Those are luxuries we can't afford. We risk offending the professor's knowledge by asking questions.
So, professors dictate 'notes' and we take it down.
 
wow
here, if the professor wants to give us their own notes, they pass them out as handouts
or PowerPoint
 
If we are unsure about something the professor said, we better not open our mouth. Coz it means we were not paying attention and we get called out in public.
 
@_@
 
7:09 PM
@allquixotic yeah no, there is zero visual aids used and what is this Powerpoint you speak of?
I'll go now and give you updates about what happens tomorrow.
 
OK. bye
that's interesting though, how the presentation method here gives us strong visual learning skills but weaker auditory listening skills, but in India, you practice auditory learning so much that it becomes your default mode of learning
a lot of USAians prefer to learn, mentor one another, etc. through email, IM, chat, presentations, video, etc., whereas I find that my Indian coworkers will not understand if I give them that; they need me to come over to their desk and explain it to them verbally
or over the phone
 
Hey, we still have the blackboard that professors use to scribble stuff on.
(using chalk)
 
I hate the phone, or any form of voice chat, I would much rather type ;p
 
Me too. Talking kills the introvert in me.
 
it's interesting: if I were in their place and not as familiar with English as my native tongue, I would want coworkers to send me emails so I can spend time translating it carefully (for any words I don't understand) to make sure I can comprehend it fully
instead, they prefer that I talk? in my native USAian English?
and somehow they understand that better!
go figure.....
 
7:15 PM
I prefer materials that I can fall back on for later use.
 
that's what I would prefer too
 
@allquixotic is enigma a suitable word to describe it?
 
@jokerdino to describe what, exactly?
 
their preference to oral instructions instead of written ones.
Guess I am running low on sleep and started to blabber more noticeably.
 
well rather than an enigma I'd say it has a rather logical explanation
 
7:18 PM
Nighters, really.
 
since, that is the way they were trained
night, really :P
what does that have to do with quality and testing?
> you are not user-friendly to me.
> even though he is earning three lakhs per month
;p
300,000 INR -> USD = $4680 USD per month = $56160 USD -- this amount is barely enough to live on in many parts of the US, for 1 person, and definitely insufficient for a family
not a comfortable living in any case
 
7:37 PM
@allquixotic I make just under that, and have to support a kid that's only with me half time. It's truly not enough anymore
 
@CanadianLuke yep
 
Bob
@allquixotic yknow what would really help
if I didn't specify quiet on the kernel params
-_-
 
lol
 
Bob
ooh, stuff happened!
scrolls too fast to read...
then it actually goes blank at the end fml
time to screencap!
hmm
that's the last frame I got in the video
 
> drm
trying to get a desktop with this thing?
do you have plymouth installed?
 
Bob
uhh shrug
it's an extremely bare-metal deb installation
debootstrap and that's about it
should have init and coreutils and probably not much else
had to pick a different username... freenode has a bunch of the common ones reserved :P
might have more luck with the mailing list though
some people around on irc but not many
@allquixotic yea, pretty sure it's plymouth stuffing up with efi
 
Bob
8:40 PM
I hate how I have to wait over 15 mins to compile zfs modules every time I want to change something -_-
 
Bob
9:04 PM
@allquixotic :D :D :D
:D
 
@Bob Is tank a default name for ZFS pools? I was recovering a ZFS pool for a friend, and that was the name he chose as well
 
Bob
@CanadianLuke not so much default, but it's become a kind of convention :P
19
Q: Why are all the zpools named "tank"?

asciiphilIn practically every example of ZFS usage that I've seen online (including several questions here), the zpool is named "tank". Why? Is there some sort of significance to the name or is it just that the original documentation used "tank" so that's what everyone else uses, too? If you have more ...

 
Ahhh OK
 
Bob
@allquixotic just in case you ever want to do this: efibootmgr -c -g -L "Debian (EFI stub)" -l '\EFI\debian\vmlinuz' -u "add_efi_memmap boot=zfs rpool=tank bootfs=tank/ROOT/debian-1 root=ZFS=tank/ROOT/debian-1 initrd=\\EFI\debian\initrd.img ro vmwgfx.enable_fbdev=1"
the vmwgfx bit is a fix for the plymouth stuff => lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2013/07/msg00877.html
 
I wanted to install Debian on my Surface Pro, but it wouldn't boot :(
 
Bob
9:09 PM
@CanadianLuke take quiet off the params and see what it prints :P
or just look at the logs if you can access the FS
 
I'll wait until my Windows 10 TP expires
 
Bob
@allquixotic so, you had to update the EFI firmware?
@CanadianLuke TP keeps making me think of toilet paper for some reason
now I just have to decide: are the benefits of raidz worth the potential instability?
 
What benefits are there, compared to a traditional array?
 
Bob
@CanadianLuke raidz doesn't have the raid5 write hole
it also has better integrity verification (checksums)
@allquixotic I'm thinking I should go with the SSDs
600 GB is quite a lot of storage
really annoying that ovh doesn't allow upgrades...
 
9:28 PM
How do PGP encrypted emails work? I received an email the other day that looked like it was encrypted, but seemed to display as plain text in Gmail without any intervention.
 
Bob
@MichaelFrank please define "looked like it was encrypted"
 
It came in as:

----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----
Hash: SHA256
*message body*
----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----
*stuff*
----END PGP SIGNATURE----
 
Bob
signed
not encrypted
 
Ahh
okay.
 
Bob
signed => you can verify who sent it
encrypted => only you can read it
they can be, but don't have to be, together
 
9:34 PM
So how do you verify who sent it?
 
Bob
with a program capable of doing so?
only that person's private key can sign a message you can verify using their public key
the general process (I don't know pgp specifics) goes something like:
sender: hash message, sign with private key
receiver: run signature through public key, compare to hash of message
...from memory, I might've messed it up :\
 
@Bob But I'd need to find the public key of whoever sent me this message first before I could verify the message?
 
Bob
@MichaelFrank ya. IIRC PGP (or was it GPG?) keeps some kind of trust network... you're better off looking this up
I only touched on it briefly while learning about pubkey crypto (which I've also mostly forgotten)
 
Anyone have any suggestions for software that supports remote mob programming? Plenty of stuff for pair programming, but what about when you want more than 2 people and each person should be able to control the keyboard and mouse. So far it looks like floobits might be good.
 
@still_dreaming_1 That sounds horrible.
 
9:46 PM
@MichaelFrank LOL
 
10:00 PM
@still_dreaming_1 I think I have a question about this around here somewhere.
I want to collaboratively program
Clippy, why u no find my software?
Probably SO tho. unsure
-2
Q: Looking for alternative Collaberative Developing Environements

Tom WijsmanI'm interested in Collaberative Developing and I was wondering if there are alternative solutions than using UNA (example video) from N-Brain. Free would be even better, but I guess that's not an option which such technology. PS: The main future I'm looking for is working real-time with multiple...

There we go. :D
That's the previous big release tho, they are one big release further than the one in screenshot.
 
@Bob to boot in UEFI, yes
 
0.5 looks slightly different than 0.4, but not much; probably a huger difference in the features.
 
Bob
@allquixotic according to the guys on irc, raidz1 might not boot
trying that now
 
@MichaelFrank Yeah, that can be found on key servers.
But you indeed basically need some form of trust instead of wildly assuming that they key you find on the key server is really from the person in question.
 
@TomWijsman lololol You realise what Gobby means in this part of the world?
 
10:09 PM
The cheap way is to check from different connections if the key is the same as adverted on the person's homepage and on multiple different key servers.
The more trustable way is to check if you know anyone from the chain of trust in real life.
The only way to know for sure nobody is setting you up is to meet the person in real life and ask him for his key.
But even then, it might still be a robot with a skin. Or a stranger in ur dream after brain manipulation. Or... 8-)
@MichaelFrank There are too much slang definitions nowadays. >_<
Just scroll down urbandictionary.com/… if u want to know what I mean.
(And yeah, once you have the key u need this PGP/GPG/... program to verify the text has not been tampered with)
 
When I google an error and I see sevenforums in the results, I know immediately that unless the problem is really trivial and standard, it's not going to answer it.. and the community there judging by some of their answers, must be the stupidest on the internet
 
Thanks @TomWijsman! Will check out Gobby.
 
@still_dreaming_1 If u find anything better, feel free to let me know.
 
@barlop Or you get the dreaded edit: "nvm I fixd it."
 
@barlop wat error do u google my friend? I haz sekrit stash of error fixes, u wanna know solution?
 
10:25 PM
@TomWijsman If it's anything like what our Service Desk does... It'll be "renamed Excel in registry" or "applied the registry fix".
 
@MichaelFrank Yeah, make sure registry is in there. Remapped drive letters in registry. Repaired registry damage caused by viruses.
 
As a level 2 tech it drives me nuts... cause we don't have registry fixes for these issues.
 
Makes more sense to them than saying "on disk".
 
So I have no idea wtf they did.
 
Our descriptions need to be as short as possible but still make some kind of sense, because most customers don't understand technical explanations. Your case sounds different, they should type it out properly or reference to some kind of solution document.
 
Bob
10:59 PM
hmm
@allquixotic ran into an interesting problem
efi boot is failing in vmware
it's not even getting up to trying to mount the zpool
 

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