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12:28 AM
Haha, I like that I'm the go-to Maid RPG person.
Today my younger-than-me uncle asked me if I played D&D as I as leaving a family function. When I said yes, he told me he needed help DMing. We shall see if I'm up to the task, heh. Really depends on what his problem is.
 
Well that was an interesting weekend. Went to the local Steampunk Festival (at the railway museum). Wife did her book launch. We sold 25+ copies of the book, despite the fact that we didn't actually have copies with us (damn couriers, damn US public holidays). She wasn't expecting to sell that many - the 2nd day's orders will have to come out of the next shipment. People ordering didn't mind the 3-4 week delivery time!
 
Very nice.
 
1:12 AM
Tell me Pixie.
Would you ever dress your uncle up in a maid costume?
 
 
2 hours later…
3:02 AM
14
Q: Why does a match go out if you hold it so the flame is up?

TdonutI have noticed something which may have been noticed already: take a match, and light it, then hold it so that the flame is directly above your hand. The flame will eventually go out. My guess as to why this happens is that the convection causing the flame to go upward eventually starves the flam...

If you thought the mechanics of a matchstick were simple and straightforward you were apparently probably wrong.
 
Matches are REALLY complex.
 
@BESW You are not wrong at all.
 
It's 8 C tonight in Rochester. I'm freezing, but there is a cat on my feet.
 
I'm beginning to think a [edition-comparison] tag would come in handy so that I can search through all our existing questions of the form "What's the diff between Game 1st edition and Game 2nd edition?"
@BESW the "but" instead of an "and" makes all the difference there.
 
Happily I'm not allergic to the cat.
 
3:09 AM
Hooray!
 
@doppelgreener That actually would be really good
 
I don't think I've ever had a foot cat before. Foot beagle, yes, but that's a very different sort of thing.
 
we have a lot of these.
 
Foot beagles? I didn't imagine they were a surplus commodity.
 
Edition comparisons. We have a shortage on foot beagles. We're not going to make our quota this financial year.
 
3:41 AM
@doppelgreener Ooh, you're going for it!
 
4:02 AM
@doppelgreener I added some of a tag wiki.
 
4:26 AM
@BESW Delightful and warm for june. You should see the rest of winter.
 
And the award for the creepiest out-of-context question title goes to...
1
Q: Can you make an unwilling creature willing?

NicholasGoing through the spells, I see the phrase "Willing creature" used to determine who you can cast some spells on. I don't ever see a proper definition of what a willing creature is, but I would assume that it would go something like if you asked them "Can I perform this spell on you" they would an...

 
@acomputingpun That's where my mind went too...but it's a really good question.
 
I know! It's an actual potentially useful-in-a-game point of mechanics that I both don't trivially know the answer to and would be interested to learn it.
 
5:19 AM
Idea for a game, requiring a rather unscrupulous party. Eclipse Phase or Shadowrun or the like. Dead Man's Switch is a common trope: someone has compromising documents on someone else, and sets up a system/friend to release them if an unexpected misfortune were to befall them. So should a party want to bring someone down but lack the compromising documents, all they have to do is find out who does and off them. Repeat as needed, until you find the person with an actual DMS.
For a reversal, have party's minor enemies start disappearing. A cause for celebration quickly turning to concern. Save your enemies!
 
Wait, as in, the party knows A is being blackmailed by B, but they don't know the identity of B. They expect that B has set up a mechanism to release the documents in case of B's death. So they start killing random (well, presumably there are selection criteria) people in the hope they happen to hit B?
 
Pretty much. Well, ideally they know the identity of B and it's a more-or-less straightforward deal. But just offing all the people who ever crossed A is more amusing.
 
And hope that they don't hit C, the guy who is part of the mechanism B set up.
 
Doesn't your "reversal" rely on the party being blackmailed by a nemesis in the first place? In which case, they would be hunting the friends of the nemesis.
 
Relationship graph of NPCs: who is blackmailing whom. Knock out the weakest link and watch the dominoes topple.
I think it's usually not a blackmail so much as "leave me alone". As in, a reporter knows the party has done something dodgy, but won't actually publish it for fear of retaliation. It's a stand-off.
 
5:32 AM
Well, I mean, you know how these unscrupulous cyberpunk corporate blackmailers are... I mean, it's never just the one guy who has a dirty secret that someone else is holding over his head. Chances are, B's being blackmailed by D, and D set up a mechanism (held by E), and D's being blackmailed by F, and so on and so on until the party's best bet is to kill random janitors until they hit the one at the bottom of the tower.
 
@Magician Ah. And then the reporter's friends start disappearing, as someone tries to find the incriminating info
 
@Adeptus That works too, though my idea was to purposefully trigger the dead man's switch, not steal the documents giving it weight.
Because presumably the friend is a distant connection and hard to track (otherwise it's not much of a DMS).
@acomputingpun Pretty much. Would make for a cool short story, too. A janitor dies of a heart attack, and a corporation collapses around them.
 
@Magician "Heart attack". Uh huh...
 
Although, that kind of reporter/blackmailer/whatever would probably have dirt on lots of people... they die in suspicious circumstances, and everyone's going to be outed
@Miniman Heart attack(ed by hot lead)?
 
It's particularly amusing if you assume the graph contains (several?) loops: everyone knows that if anyone starts the DMS war, they know it'll come back to bite them in a few connections' time. Mutually assured destruction.
It's like the Cold War with janitor murder instead of nuclear missiles.
 
5:43 AM
Aye. Which is why an actual heart attack is so amusing, to me at least.
Doesn't have to all be DMS, either. Could be some actual revenge in the mix, too. "A is dead, it must have been B that done it. B will pay."
 
@Magician I've definitely watched something with a plot along those lines.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:46 AM
Hello?
 
Hello
 
Hey
 
I made a thing for D&D 3.5 for what would happen if you used the Bell Curve, Variable Modifiers, and/or Complex Skill Checks variants.
In that it shows the probabilities for various things
I set it up as a toy in Google Sheets that anyone could open and toy with
Would anyone here like to try it?
 
not my system I'm afraid
 
not particularly interested in 3.5 stuff anymore myself
 
7:59 AM
ok
 
there are people who are interested in that here, quite possibly at least
but many of them might not be online right now
 
I made a futuristic revamp of 3.5 where I went on a shopping spree in Unearthed Arcana.
Players Roll All the Dice, Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, etc.
I also heavily-customized up a number of variants such as for Spell Points (which were utterly broken before)
And made other changes to kill the "15-minute workday"
I also institutionalized a number of useful house rules, such as the Real Alignments fix to the alignments system.
It's practically a whole new game.
bbl
 
9:14 AM
bak
 
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Urrg. Saturday was in the 20s, and we probably won't see 15 again until tomorrow.
 
Hey.
Can anyone here explain me why it is called Forgotten Realms?
 
@BESW @Althis Would you like to see my 3.5e Complex Skill Checks probability toy?
 
@Althis Wikipedia: "The premise is that, long ago, the Earth and the world of the Forgotten Realms were more closely connected. As time passed, the inhabitants of planet Earth have mostly forgotten about the existence of that other world—hence the term Forgotten Realms."
 
YES.
Oh.
 
9:16 AM
@EmrysTernal Thanks, but not really my thing.
 
So they did that Animated Series thing.
I see.
TOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOYTOY
 
@Althis Is that a yes?
 
You had a Yes.
And then you had a frantic uttering for your product.
I guess that is the cue for you to deliver it.
 
You use the first or second sheet to get the probability, then you plug the relevant values into the Complex Skill Checks sheet
 
I have a question.
What is the vertical axis?
 
9:20 AM
Probability of at least that roll result
from 0 to 1
Expressed as a %
 
I like how you say the probability of getting a 21 on a d20 roll is zero.
Pft. Fool.
 
There needs to be upper and lower bound values or the line graph for each one would stop at the adjacent value
 
Also, there is still 0,49 chance you will get a 19 on 3 d6.
Why didn't you simply 0 this one as well?
 
The number format shown is rounded, but if you click on the cell it shows the full percentage
(in the edit box)
I assume you're being sarcastic.
 
I was mocking you about the 21.
 
9:26 AM
If I didn't include them, the lines on the line graph would stop short
 
But the 3d6 does have a positive value for 19.
 
So I include the 100% and 0% values to ensure that the line graph is complete.
 
Shouldn't these tiny mistakes by chance of calculation have some impact in the final results?
 
No, they're only there for a cosmetic effect.
 
Because say I am trying to get a 19 and I can roll a skill with 3d6.
Through your system it would tell me it is possible.
Even if logically it is not.
You might then say I am not that stupid.
 
9:28 AM
No it doesn't.
 
But as a software developer you always assume your user is the must dimwit person on earth.
 
Yeah, but I also can assume that the GM is not.
 
Hehe.
I would not.
 
That's like saying "Assume you were a non-Jedi wanting to take down Darth Vader."
 
Basic math is too much an assumption for these days educational system.
 
9:31 AM
"How would you do it?" "You can't."
I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
Anyway
 
It is pretty cool.
Simple but cool.
Now you can know EXACTLY how unlucky you are every time you roll.
 
Here's an example of how you'd actually use this. Let's say you want to find an Item Level 3 item (something worth almost 800gp). That's a DC 16 complex Gather Information check (assuming there are no factors which increase the DC). Assuming there are also no other factors that influence the # of required successes or allowed failures and you have a +3 modifier, there is a 11.36% chance of success normally, or 21.32% if you press your luck.
 
I am assuming you just subtract the modifier as it works now.
You might want to think of an interface that does this automatically.
Power is only useful through the gates of usability.
That old hag.
 
Yes, DC 16 - 3 = 13, and you can take the probability on a 3d6 of rolling at least a 13 (25.93%) and use that for the trial probability
 
You could just add a cell that takes that modifier and subtracts it from the desired value.
 
9:38 AM
true
 
Believe me, it looks like a tiny thing, but would really go a long way in terms of usability.
 
Makes sense.
More importantly, I wanted to run a social encounter session using Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery.
Also hacking through UMD and Knowlege (Hypertechnology)
All of which use complex skill checks
Using this tool, I can accurately gauge the chance of success for a Lvl 1 social-focused character
And summarily say "Yeah I shouldn't put the DC as higher than say 14."
 
Hey.
I have a question.
Don't you guys think it is really unfair that despite being an incredible proficient character in a certain skill, you might still do REALLY REALLY well due to the roll of a dice?
 
I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic.
 
Upgrading the dices don't work in this case, because they always default to 1.
I am not.
You only rely on modifiers for certain mastery.
 
9:47 AM
How could it possibly be unfair to get a good roll as a result of being really proficient?
 
Now I see the beauty of the poker hand system in some games.
 
Hello everyone!
 
Hello Mittan.
Oh, sorry, typo,
 
I.. prefer Alex
 
You can still do really really terrible I meant.
 
9:48 AM
Linked with Facebook, has to display my full name
 
Though luck.
 
That's what circumstance modifiers are for. They're your way of telling the GM "I've got a trump card in my hand."
And that's also why you can't fumble a skill check.
 
Yeah. But modifiers don't ever go too high.
 
@Althis I agree with this, I don't like really swingy and "fiction-unrealistic" systems
 
They give you a +2 for each circumstance.
 
9:49 AM
The most I ever get in a D&D game was +4 in a skill check.
That isn't even the mediocre level.
 
You could come up with 10 circumstances that help you and get a +20
 
What game are we talking about though?
 
That's the nature of the D&D skill system. It's meant for uncertain circumstances where a lot can go wrong, often not due to any mistake you make.
 
D&D.
 
In my case, D&D 3.5e.
 
9:50 AM
3.5 D&D
 
Oh okay
 
See also goblin dice by yours truly.
 
Emrys, did you ever get a natural +20?
 
I'm not saying that it happens very often, but it's plausible to get that many circumstance bonuses if your party helps you.
 
Magician.
 
9:52 AM
@Magician I was about to say that, it has a lot to do with goblin dice doesn't it? I refrained from saying it because I was afraid it's not exactly that
 
It might be fun in means of narrative.
 
It may help to borrow a page from Fate (and other games, I'm sure) and not always blame failure on the character, but rather on external circumstance. Were you making a suit of armor and rolled a natural one, ruining half of your materials? Maybe there was a fire in the forge, or an apprentice stole it.
 
But it is also not really realistic.
 
For example, I implemented a called-shot system that lets you force a -2 penalty to someone's attack rolls for each body part you cripple.
 
It creates that ludo-narrative dissonance we hate so much.
 
9:52 AM
@Althis Er, what do you mean?
 
@Althis How is "An expert failed in this easy task because of something other than his skill" unrealistic?
 
I agree with the Fate thing, tough.
though*
 
That's the thing, you can't fumble.
You can fail, but if your normal bonus is high enough, even your worst possible roll is enough to succeed.
 
@Magician Yep, if I were to ever return to D&D, I'd still count on the Fate books for GM advice
 
I disagree that a master lockpick should be capable of fumbling a simple lock.
 
9:54 AM
@EmrysTernal Then why roll?
 
Because you don't know the DC, and the GM shouldn't be telling you the DC.
Because it would be metagaming.
 
@EmrysTernal The latter part is questionable.
 
The GM can of-course look at the DC and obviate the roll
 
Yes, the GM shouldn't be telling the DC, but he also shouldn't be asking for a roll in that case.
 
but that's their choice
 
9:55 AM
@Althis Then either the system takes that into account and master lockpick's skill bonus will be high enough to always beat the DC, or it doesn't and the GM can simply allow the picking of simple locks without a roll.
 
If it's more dramatically appropriate, the GM wouldn't be amiss to require a roll
 
I was decently into the "GM doesn't tell you" thing before I played Fate, but I actually like the Fate approach (no pun intended) a bit more... you know exactly what you're up against and it creates a sort of.. narrative bargaining to get what you want
 
For example, let's say a master lockpick needs to open a lock in a hurry
 
I actually found that letting PCs know important numbers like monster defences and the like not only sped up the fight, but didn't hurt it any way.
 
That's a -20 penalty IIRC
Suddenly all that skill isn't so great
 
9:56 AM
@Magician Yep, I find "hidden" data to be more of a desperate novelty nowadays...
 
Rather, the DC increases by +20
 
But that is working around the system. The truth is, if you use the system as it is designed, there is the possibility for rolls where it shouldn't. And D&D isn't like Fate where the rule book says to ignore the rules when seen more narratively appropriate.
 
Actually that's exactly what it says
On the first page
 
First page you say?
Let me look mine.
 
Ah, but you see, there's no such thing as D&D. (Again, by yours truly, sorry about self-promotion).
 
9:57 AM
Not literally necessarily
But in the first few pages of the DMG I'm pretty certain says Rule 0.
 
Dude.
 
Which is to say, everyone plays it differently. Groups develop unspoken conventions and ways of interpreting the rules.
 
And specifically calls out when it would be dramatically appropriate or fun.
 
Do you want to link me to your book already?
 
In pretty much all D&D books it says that the story comes first, although my antipathy for it makes me just go "[snip] off..." to it
 
9:58 AM
I feel like I am reading a lost tome of knowledge here!
 
Players should be players and characters should be characters. We care about what the characters do, why would it matter if the players are aware of some numbers or not? I find that it doesn't improve immersion in any way... if you have to rely on the players not knowing things to immerse them, you might want to work on other things or even switch systems
 
Point being, yes, even D&D says you can skip the rolls if they're taking away from your fun.
 
@Althis Is it... useful?
 
Not really.
But it is interesting.
 
Hah, I'll take that.
 
10:00 AM
It isn't useful because I think most GMs don't really thing in terms of game design.
 
I find Magician's posts useful, especially "goblin dice", I loved that one
 
They just think in terms of what seems "fun" and what "might work".
 
I feel like "goblin dice" is starting to become a thing, like a new term, at least on here, because of that
 
@Althis I do though.
 
game design IS "fun"and "might work"
 
10:01 AM
I said MOST.
 
that's what a game IS
 
Which is why I made this probability toy
 
"fun" and "functional"
 
@AlexMitan But it is that put into terms of science.
They do it more instinctively, which means they don't really put much thought into what they are doing.
 
So I can say "Do I really want them to only have a 25% chance of success?"
 
10:02 AM
I do think a good GM thinks in terms of game design as well, I think something's missing if a GM doesn't give that some thought
2
Players calculating probabilities and dissecting a game system is unimmersive and we call it "metagaming", but a GM doing that is.. an essential part of being a GM... I think.. I'd go as far as saying the GM should do that so the players don't have to
 
Well. I've read lots of books on game design. Theory of Fun. The Art of Game Design. Game Design Workshop. The Design of Everyday Things. And so on. NONE of the other GMs I know have. But they have been GMing for a lot longer than me, some up to 20 years.
So I do not thing an academic knowledge of game design is necessary to be a good GM.
Trial and error usually does it.
 
For example, let's say they have a 25% chance of guessing a password. I can use this toy to answer the question "how many times should I let them get it wrong before there are dire consequences?"
 
Not academic, but basic knowledge of game design elements and its interactions with psychology should be there... I've played a lot of video games before, ever since I was 4 I've played games, and it comes naturally to me now to estimate if some element of design is fun or not.. and to what kind of player
 
It's not necessary for a GM to know game design, I think. But it helps to consider it, as it may reveal the reasons behind some game trends or behaviors, which is what I often do in my blog. I don't have proper academic background in game design either.
 
^That
 
10:06 AM
If I want the group to actually have a better-than-50% chance of success, I can say "for 1 success required and a 25% chance of success per trial, I would have to let them fail at least 3 times at maximum (which would produce an overall chance of success of 57.81%)
 
Some people just wing it and it works wonderfully.
Have any of you ever killed your entire party in an encounter?
Some people see that as a failure as a GM.
 
That assumption of wanting a better-than-50% chance of success is based on my game design instincts.
 
But honestly, I don't think it should be.
 
@EmrysTernal That sounds like 4e's skill challenges more than 3.5
 
I haven't, but that's because I always provide an out and give PCs passive wisdom checks.
@Magician That's partially the point.
 
10:10 AM
Anyway. I have to go make a presentation.
Nice talking to you guys.
I will be back.
Eventually.
 
@Althis To save @Magician from having to self-present, I think this article's amazing about TPKs: ponderingsongames.com/2011/12/13/inconsequentialness_of_combat
 
@Magician I use the Complex Skill Check system in my game for hacking, among other things.
 
Ok, see you around
 
Duuuuuude.
HAVE YOU WRITTEN ON EVERYTHING ALREADY?!
 
Psst. Guys. How do I link things in a more... sleek way?
 
10:11 AM
Leave some for us poor fools.
See ya.
 
@AlexMitan You're too kind :)
@Althis I've been blogging on and off for a few years, it adds up.
@AlexMitan There's a "help" link at the bottom right of the screen. It's [link name]....(link itself), without the elipses.
 
More importantly, I don't TPK unless the players are intentionally stupid. Case-in-point, if everyone gets KO'd, they have reserve points to bring them back to above 0.
(assuming that what KO'd them didn't then kill them explicitly)
 
Oh okay thank you!
 
As for combat inconsequentialism, there's always a backup plan for if they fail, or even encounters where they're supposed to run instead of fight.
For example, maybe if they're KO'd they all wake up hours later in a jail cell
And have to either break out or use social skills to negotiate their freedom.
 
I think Fate inherently solves combat inconsequentialism, much like it solves any failure... make something different, but still interesting happen
"That’s not the way a straightforward game like D&D would handle it. In it, you fail – you do nothing. Maybe you get to try again, maybe something occurs to prevent you – but not because you made the roll. " - Magician

Exactly, this is the reason I quit D&D.. that, and the dreadful balance on early levels and menu-picking
 
10:17 AM
I don't know much about Fate as a game, but it sounds like it's much more about impromptu solutions.
Where the GM is forced to make up "interesting" things on the fly
all the time anyway
 
Not primarily, that's Dungeon World's core rather
The thing I like most about Fate is that you can narratively "bargain" your way to succeeding, one way or another, AFTER the roll is made
so you either succeed at a major cost or spend your "fate points" on helpful circumstances to narratively invoke them
 
So basically metagaming is built-in as a dominant strategy
 
Not to mention creating advantages/aspects to help you and reduce randomness in favor of narrative involvement
Well... I don't know if I'd call it metagaming
hm, okay, I should give an example I guess
let's say you're trying to pick a lock with the difficulty of 3
 
You are literally saying "oh, I rolled a 12, shit, well I can think of A, B, C, and D reasons why you should let me win anyway"
 
no, no
listen
you roll a 2
it's not enough, so the GM says you can treat it as a success at a cost, such as messing up your lockpicks forever or someone overhearing you and coming to see what's happening
OR, if you still have Fate Points, which you mainly get by making your own life difficult narratively
you can spend one on something relevant, let's say you have an aspect called "Master Burglar". You spend the point giving you a +2, bringing you up to 4, which is enough
Fate points are powerful, but they come and go as the story unfolds
The same "Master Burglar" aspect could be compelled by yourself or the GM when it'd make your life worse, let's say when someone recognises you as being one or something. You gain a Fate Point then
I'm doing a bad job selling the system, it's really a gorgeous one
 
10:31 AM
0
Q: Overly hasty comment deletion

Clara OnagerI was going to talk about this in relation to this question where basically every comment in sight has been rapidly deleted but after reading this and this I think I'll just stop bothering to answer questions at all.

 
Fate is great! But yeah, Fate points are a meta-currency, and as such their use can be considered meta-gaming.
 
As in, the characters aren't aware of them or what?
 
Yeah, they don't have a place in the game world, they're purely a gaming table thing.
 
To me, metagaming sounds like a crime, the way it's used... Isn't rolling dice itself metagaming then?
Isn't a player a metagamer just by virtue of not actually being able to practice magic in real life?
 
Metagaming as it's typically used means "using out-of-game knowledge, such as rules knowledge, to make decisions in-game".
So one could accuse a player who sees a garden of realistic stone statues and stocks up on stone-to-flesh spell scrolls because they expect they'll be facing a medusa of meta-gaming if there's no way for their characters to have ever heard of a medusa before.
And now I must away.
 
10:37 AM
Another example might be if the PC group is split and has no way of knowing what eachother is doing. If one group acts on information gained by the other group when they can't communicate because of things they heard me tell the other group, that would be meta-gaming too
 
Hm, okay, but Fate Points are an inherent part of the game, to me they seem to be that kind of build-up of juice a character goes through when their life gets so messy that they get more and more motivated to get through the next obstacle
a sort of "I've been through far too much [snip] to give up now, I WILL succeed on this" translating to a player's "Yeah, I have 5 fate points, watch me"
 
and in that context I it wouldn't be frowned upon (although I'm entering dodgy territory as my familiarity with Fate in general is not good)
afk
 
Meta-gaming, like most gaming behaviours, is only bad when the group dislikes it.
Thing is, a lot of RPGs assume metagaming as a default stance--but some of the more "traditional" playstyles dislike it, and their inertia lends the concept an erroneously universal poor reputation.
 
Is there an article or something about the difference between the "traditional" playstyle and the "modern" ones?
squints eyes at @Magician
 
(Ludonarrative was earlier referred to as a universal "bad thing" also. Metagaming --and its associated awareness of the ludonarrative-- are hazardous to "immersive" gaming styles where the player's agency and the character's agency --and their shared experiences-- are expected to overlap as much as possible.)
(In any game where the player and the player's character have different values of agency or their experience of the narrative is expected to differ, metagaming and ludonarrative incrementally cease to be bugbears threatening to ruin the experience.)
 
10:49 AM
Hm.. okay, but I feel (and I emphasise, this is just how I feel) that the extra effort needed to keep things hidden and unify the player and character are not just unrealistic, but manage to create very unimmersive mechanics, like a lot of number-crunching and foggy data, which in themselves are clearly not something a swordsman or a mage does, all of this just to make the player just as able to act as the character
 
Oh, I agree. But it's a subjective experience, so I can't generalise my opinion that such mechanics cast a veil between myself and the narrative experience into a statement that it's inherently a poor game style.
When I finally internalised my intellectual understanding that all abstractions leak, I was able to make better-informed decisions about abstractions in my games.
 
What kind of abstractions do you mean?
 
Anything which intends to represent something it isn't in a simpler way than the thing it's representing.
An easy, commonly-discussed example is D&D hit points.
> The basic idea is that abstractions hide details, but sometimes those details are important, so pretty much every abstraction will require us to "break it down" and look deeper sometimes. (source)
Barring a bunch of rocks and a better understanding of the world than humanity currently possesses, no RPG can accurately and losslessly simulate a real event.
At best we can approximate realism or hope to be realistic--and the 'ism' and 'istic' bits are the important parts of those words, not the 'real.'
 

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