English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Faheem Mitha

17:00

Actually, that Guardian columnist had some good things to say about this.

Cerberus

But that is different.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus relative gnp? You mean relative to the world?

Jez

@Cerberus i am. it wasn't evil. without it, the world today would be less advanced, and less able to communicate internationally. it's about time people recognized that.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha As a percentage of global GNP.

Jez

@FaheemMitha hah. the Guardian is an ultra-left wing pile of crap.

Cerberus

17:00

@Jez Hitler did good things too. Doesn't mean he didn't do evil things.

Jez

lol

what a terrible comparison

Faheem Mitha

@Jez India went to a lot of trouble to remove those benevolent people who were making their country so much more advanced. And they didn't go easily.

@Cerberus Like what?

Cerberus

@Jez The Guardian is one of a handful of British newspapers that are still respected around the world, including the Financial Times and the Economist...

Jez

@FaheemMitha actually, yes they did. the British could have massacared Indians in vast numbers.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus right. Well, like I said, I can't put my finger on it.

Cerberus

17:01

@FaheemMitha Like a ton of things. We still have some good laws from Nazi times, for example.

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Sorry, I don't follow.

Cerberus

Bridges, railways, roads, too.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I'd be interested in examples.

Jez

@FaheemMitha the British left India quite peacefully. they did not kill Ghandi in a public execution. they did not commit genocide.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Building stuff is not a moral act.

Jez

17:02

you think the Islamic State would afford him the same kindness?

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Peacefully yes. Easily, no. And Gandhi spent much of his life in British prisons.

@Jez what Islamic state?

Robusto

That one.

Jez

@FaheemMitha ISIS

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Huh?

Jez

never heard of Daesh?

Faheem Mitha

17:03

@Jez no

Jez

o...k.....

Cerberus

> The first autobahn in Austria was the West Autobahn from Wals near Salzburg to Vienna. Building started by command of Adolf Hitler shortly after the Anschluss in 1938. It extended the Reichsautobahn 26 from Munich (the present-day A8), however only 16.8 km (10.4 mi) including the branch-off of the planned Tauern Autobahn was opened to the public on 13 September 1941.[17]

Faheem Mitha

I'm thinking of Monbiot. He had a good article about British imperialism.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Why not, if it helps people?

I did not mean evil in the narrowest sense.

Jez

@FaheemMitha a self-loathing pus-filled zit on the ass of humanity.

Faheem Mitha

17:04

@Cerberus People build bridges and roads because it improves communication. The British did plenty of building in India too. Much of it is still around.

Jez

@FaheemMitha and do we hear a word of thanks for it?

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Actually, he strikes me as a good guy. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Then it is good that you can use those builds, or could use them in the past if they are now destroyed, right?

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Um, they used India's own resources to do it. And they did it for their own purposes. Granted, they did a good job of it. Many of those buildings are still standing.

Cerberus

Even the Islamtic State does some good things in Syria and Iraq, they bring a degree of law and order in some places where there wasn't any.

Faheem Mitha

17:06

Eg. VT. Just a few miles from where I live.

Cerberus

Well, there you go.

Jez

@Cerberus barely. 99% of their influence is evil. i wouldn't say that about the British empire.

Cerberus

Even the most evil empire still does some good things too.

@Jez I did not mean to say that the Brits were as bad as the IS.

Faheem Mitha

Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus

Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST) (Marathi):मुंबई छत्रपती शिवाजी टर्मिनस is a UNESCO World Heritage Site and an historic railway station in Mumbai Maharashtra, India which serves as the headquarters of the Central Railways. Designed by Frederick William Stevens with influences from Victorian Italianate Gothic Revival architecture and traditional Mughal buildings, the station was built in 1887 in the Bori Bunder area of Mumbai to commemorate the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria. The new railway station was built on the location of the Bori Bunder Station and is one of the busiest railway stations...

@Cerberus Building stuff isn't a moral good. Everyone builds things.

Cerberus

If the buildings are useful to people, then it is good.

Faheem Mitha

17:07

That used to be called Victoria Terminus. It's a couple of miles from here.

Jez

@FaheemMitha anyway i think you should get over your hatred of the British. move on. the commonwealth should be doing business together peacefully.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus That's an excessively general criterion, imo.

Cerberus

Why?

Faheem Mitha

@Jez I don't hate the British (whatever that means).

Cerberus

Perhaps we should define our central question more tightly, then.

Faheem Mitha

17:08

@Cerberus Because any activity (e.g. building) is useful to someone. If that is your definition of good, then everything is good.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha No, I meant good for the people in India.

Faheem Mitha

Any crime benefits someone, if only the criminal and his affiliates. Suppose the criminal has cute small children, and puppies, and stuff. Then it helps the cute small children.

Cerberus

If it's just something the Brits used that was useless to the Indians, then it doesn't count.

And I am not talking about intentions.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus You mean the buildings and transport facilities? yes, I expect it was. But it was built using Indian resources, without any input from Indians.

Jez

useful infrastructure is generally gonna be useful for everyone

Cerberus

17:10

I am talking about the actual consequences for the region involved in the long term.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, I think intentions are important.

@Jez Agreed.

Jez

@FaheemMitha boo hoo. i suppose they should've shipped the materials over from Britain :-)

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha That doesn't mean they were less useful than what would have happened if they hadn't built those things...

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I'm not sure about long term anything. The point is, India could have built those things themselves. They didn't need the British to do it.

And it only happened that way because they were essentially a captive population.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha When the British massacred another Indian village, I'm sure the higher-ups had some lofty goal in mind, they considered it a necessary evil of sorts.

Faheem Mitha

17:11

So, I don't think gratitude is in order.

Cerberus

Hitler thought he did humanity a favour by killing the Jews. I don't think that should count.

Jez

@FaheemMitha you don't really know that. at the time, India's technological development was way behind.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Possibly. I'm not saying the British occupation was a good thing; I'm just saying the British didn't do only bad things in India.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus If the British killed people, I expect they were in their way. I don't think lofty is the word to use.

@Cerberus Hitler was a maniac. Let's leave him out of this.

Cerberus

Lofty from their own perspective.

Faheem Mitha

17:13

@Cerberus Nobody does only bad things.

Cerberus

Why leave Hitler out of this? He was just another historical leader.

Faheem Mitha

But overall the British occupation did enormous damage to India.

@Cerberus Well, at least on the subject of the Jews, he wasn't exactly rational.

Cerberus

I'm sure it did lots of damage.

George Pompidou

is there a word in English for the sentence construction with "there is/are", but not specific to English? (the word would also mean "c'è/ci sono" in Italian, "es gibt" in German, "il y a" in French, etc)

Faheem Mitha

It did. What is the most well-off country in Asia?

Cerberus

17:15

@FaheemMitha Then we would have to define rational... but, sure, I think the British also did many things that we wouldn't consider rational.

Faheem Mitha

It happens to be (almost) the only country that successfully resisted colonialism.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Existential.

George Pompidou

is that colloquial enough? or linguistics jargon?

Jez

@FaheemMitha you clearly have an "i was oppressed" axe to grind. it's rather annoying.

George Pompidou

will someone understand if I say an existential quantifier

Cerberus

17:16

Existential clause

An existential clause is a clause that refers to the existence or presence of something. Examples in English include the sentences "There is a God" and "There are boys in the yard". The use of such clauses can be considered analogous to existential quantification in predicate logic (often expressed with the phrase "There exist(s)..."). Different languages have different ways of forming and using existential clauses. For details about English, see English grammar: There as pronoun. == Formation of existential clauses == Many languages form existential clauses without any particular marker, simply...

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus just to be clear - I'm not saying that modern day English folk should feel "guilty", or "responsible" for what their ancestors did. But perhaps they could try to learn from it, and not do the same things again.

George Pompidou

oh, good!

thanks @Cerb

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou It is not colloquial at all.

Jez

@FaheemMitha like there's some risk of that.

George Pompidou

oh, haha

Faheem Mitha

17:16

But part of that is taking responsibility for their past actions.

@Jez Risk of what?

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou I don't think those who are limited to colloquial terms have a word for this phaenomenon.

Jez

doing colonialism again

we cant even hold our own country together

George Pompidou

I wanted to tell someone that there's no existential-specific word in Romanian, you have to make a hacky sentence to say "there is"

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha They should, and they have, to some degree.

Faheem Mitha

@Jez Any country can do bad things. Whether strong or weak.

Like helping the US in Iraq. That was a bad thing.

Jez

17:17

@FaheemMitha that was a Blair thing.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I'm not sure of that.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha But strong countries do more bad things on average, because they have more power.

Of course there are other factors.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus this was the article I had in mind:

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Why "quantifier"?

Faheem Mitha

monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts

Also theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/…

George Pompidou

17:18

not quantifier, I'm just used to talking about that in a class or something

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus you are presumably aware that the Indian subcontinent had many famines during British occupation, and that they stopped once India became independent?

Jez

@FaheemMitha "Why do so few people know about the atrocities of empire?" - that guy must be living in a different world to me, because all I ever hear is how Britain was so evil and killed loads of people. what I don't hear so much is that everybody was doing slavery at the time. Britain was not some kind of special entity.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha From what I saw at a glance, I am not surprised at all. Their policies killed millions.

George Pompidou

it's wrong, but I call it that because it makes me think ∃

Jez

self-loathing bullshit.

Faheem Mitha

17:20

@Jez hear from where?

Certainly not print media. Or television.

Jez

@FaheemMitha the BBC, foreigners, white British people, foreign press, politicians...

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Yes, it is a bit like ∃, which is of course the E from existential.

Jez

@FaheemMitha you've just linked to a bloody Guardian article

Faheem Mitha

Or radio. Though I don't think people listen to the radio that much these days.

Jez

they never shut up about it

Cerberus

17:21

@GeorgePompidou A simple existential construction is probably what you mean?

Faheem Mitha

@Jez BBC? Seriously? Example, please.

George Pompidou

@Cerberus that sounds good. cool.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha That they stopped after independence is a bit complicated. The green revolution happened around that time, didn't it?

Jez

@FaheemMitha news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4742049.stm

Faheem Mitha

@Jez you seem a bit fixated on slavery. If you have a subject population, slavery isn't that important. Ultimately it is just a legal construct.

George Pompidou

17:22

yes, you have to say "există un dumnezeu" (there is a god)

which is literal

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha And millions died in Chinese famines too.

Faheem Mitha

Indians were not technically slaves, but they might as well have been.

Jez

@FaheemMitha news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6185756.stm

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Maybe. But I wasn't talking about China.

Jez

@FaheemMitha so denying someone all freedom isn't important?

i think you might get some pushback on that argument

Faheem Mitha

17:23

@Jez No, not at all. Read what I said again.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Both foreign and native governments have caused famines in the course of history, all the time. I seriously doubt whether one behaved worse than the other in that regard, on average. Besides, when one Indian empire invaded some other region of India, they were foreign too, in a way, and no doubt caused many atrocities and famines?

Jez

i can't be bothered. this argument is boring.

Faheem Mitha

Suppose you were a poor Indian living in British India. Would the fact that you were not technically a slave be of great comfort to you?

Cerberus

It depends.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, as regards India, apparently the British period was far and away the worst for famines. India hasn't had a major famine since the British left. And considering how incompetent and corrupt Indian govts are, that is saying something.

Cerberus

17:25

If you can at least leave a hopelessly poor situation and go to the city or something, you might be glad that you can (even though your situation may actually become worse in the city...).

Jez

@Cerberus you don't speak any Spanish?

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Not if your options are bad everywhere. Take modern India, for example. If you are poor here, your only options are bad ones.

Modern India is pretty messed up.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha There are 1000 factors in play here, like the green revolution. It's very hard to compare different periods.

@Jez I can read a Wikipaedia article, but I can only utter a few sentences.

Jez

@Cerberus so your written Spanish is good enough

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha But you may still feel glad that you have the option.

@Jez No, I do not write it.

Jez

17:27

maybe you could have a go at doing my extnsion's Spanish tran. it's only 12 strings.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, the famines stopped after the British left. And India didn't have major famines before they arrived. And actually the first famine (in Bengal) was shortly after the East India Company arrived and ripped the place up.

Jez

@Cerberus if you can read it you can have a good go at writing it

Cerberus

Source?

Because every country in history has had famines, the more as you go farther back.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Sure, it's marginally better, in some ways. But my point is, it isn't that different.

Cerberus

@Jez No, not at all.

> Would the fact that you were not technically a slave be of great comfort to you?

Faheem Mitha

17:28

India also has the concept of indentured laborer. Which is technically not slavery.

Jez

sigh. lack of ambition. :-)

Cerberus

I still think the knowledge that you are free in theory might make a difference to you psychologically even when you cannot improve your situation either way.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, at least the 100 years prior. That book "Churchill's Secret War", has some discussion.

Jez

i mean im not great at writing French but I would give it a go!

Cerberus

But it may be of very limited value.

Faheem Mitha

17:29

@Cerberus No idea. I haven't been in that situation.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Is this a truly academic book?

It sounds rather unacademic, to be honest. You are speaking to an historian.

Or maybe it was the holocaust bit that sounded unacademic.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus The author isn't a professional historian, if that is what you mean. She's a physicist turned writer. Got bored with a post-doc in Chicago or somewhere. Won some awards.

@Cerberus Maybe take a look at decide for yourself?

@Cerberus what holocause bit?

@Cerberus anyway, for the record, I'm not that concerned about slavery. IMO it's a detail. Britain abolished slavery in the 1820s, if I remember correctly. But they continued to have an Empire and all the bad things that went along with it, well into the 1950s.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Okay, well, you can imagine I would be a bit sceptical of that, especially since it is such a political issue.

> Ancient India in 300 BC may have had a population in the range 100–140 million. It has been estimated that the population was about 100 million in 1600 and remained nearly static until the late 19th century. It reached 255 million according to the first census taken in 1881.[15][16]
...
Mortality rates fell in the period 1920–45, primarily due to biological immunization. Other factors included rising incomes, better living conditions, improved nutrition, a safer and cleaner environment, and better official health policies and medical care.[18]

So I'm not saying I know what the British occupation was like...but it is a very complicated issue, the total effect of it on India as a whole compared to other periods.

This ^ is from Wikipaedia.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I don't see what other periods have to do with it. At that point, it would have been ancient history.

Cerberus

You were comparing it with other periods.

Faheem Mitha

17:45

The point is what the effects were in the late 18th century, when the British arrived.

@Cerberus I was? I was just saying that the British period was exceptionally high in major famines. And the following period has not had any famines. That I know of, anyway.

Which is not to say that modern India is all rosy. Clearly, it isn't. And yes, there were technological factors, but they didn't kick in immediately.

@Cerberus you should read the Mukerjee book. Also the Davis one.

Cerberus

And I am saying that perhaps they would have been other great famines and civil wars if the Brits had not come, so that fact alone does not tell us whether the Brits were more evil than some Indian maharajah.

Faheem Mitha

There is actually very little literature about British criminal activities during the Empire.

Perhaps no surprisingly.

Cerberus

But I remember reading about lots of evil things that the British did in India.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, you need to look at why those famines actually happened. Which is why I've suggested those books.

Cerberus

I think there is enough literature...

@FaheemMitha The maharajah might have caused famines too.

All empires are evil to some degree.

Faheem Mitha

17:49

@Cerberus No, not really. Everyone always mentions the same half-dozen books. Usually not written by British people.

Cerberus

That is not my impression.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, the British famines in India, like the Irish famines, happened because the British were expropriating profits for themselves. A maharajah wouldn't have the same economic motives.

@Cerberus Ok, feel free to provide me with a reading list, then.

I've actually not read the Davis book, but I would like to.

I've heard a lot about it, though. He sounds like quite a character.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Why not? Most rulers used to exploit their realms.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm, actually it's available for paperback for around Rs 1000 on Amazon India. Maybe I'll buy it.

@Cerberus Not to take money out of the country, no. They live there, after all.

Well, maybe these days it's different, with all the off-shore bank accounts. But not then.

Cerberus

Whether the gold goes into his own coffers in Delhi or in London, that matters little for the peasants who die for it.

user116848

17:59

Hi and salams!

user116848

Nice discussions going on

Cerberus

When some ruler from Delhi conquers and exploits an area near Madras, what do the poor peasants care who are suffering from it?

user116848

I'd jump in but I have nothing good to say.

Cerberus

Hi!

Mitch

@Jez ZaZing!

Jez

18:00

@Arrowfar hey. by the way The Jinn & Tonic show is just starting. you might be interested in it.

user116848

But I love this quote from Rocky:

user116848

Cerberus

I'm sure Pakistan was not much different from other parts of British India in some respects...

user116848

@Jez Hehe, okay I'll watch it.

user116848

Hi @Mitch!

Faheem Mitha

18:01

Amazon seems to have gone insane. I'm trying to check out, and they're giving me lists of additional things to buy.

@Cerberus Local rulers usually care at least a little bit what is going on in their kingdom.

Jez

@Arrowfar oh... the youtube channel has been suspended no doubt due to false DMCA claims

darn

Faheem Mitha

E.g. the current Indian govts.

Imperial powers, not so much.

user116848

@Jez So where can I watch it?

Faheem Mitha

And, like I said, Indian Rajah's didn't use to have London bank accounts. Maybe now they do.

user116848

@Cerberus Crazy shit goes in Pakistan every single day Cerbs. But I am still proud to be a muslim. Woohoo!

user116848

18:04

Well I blame terrorists and other bad bad people.

Faheem Mitha

Still trying to check out here. Is there anyone here who has tried to use Amazon India recently?

It's not letting me check out. Dunno why.

Jez

@Arrowfar it might not be on this week now :-(

stupid youtube

Johan Larsson

user116848

@Jez oh no!

Jez

they assume every DMCA claim is legit

then they don't punish ppl for filing false DMCA claims

user116848

18:06

@JohanLarsson Hej! What is that?!

Jez

@JohanLarsson wow. you need some more driving lessons.

user116848

Chat room got active all of a sudden. Yay!

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha I don't think I agree. Both local rulers and foreign ones can be OK or horrible.

@Arrowfar I know, I know. But at least the country seems to be somewhat stable now, right?

user116848

This is Pakistan. See crazy shit happens here all the time:

user116848

18:09

Well, they put too much weight on the donkey!

Cerberus

Haha aww.

user116848

Woohoo!

Cerberus

Poor donkey.

user116848

I know. It is sad.

user116848

haha

Cerberus

18:10

@JohanLarsson You win!

user116848

No I win.

user116848

lol

user116848

It is well known pic here. Been in many newspapers.

user116848

Crazy shit!

Johan Larsson

@Arrowfar Texting while driving.

user116848

18:15

@JohanLarsson oh!

user116848

Yeah it is very unsafe.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus That wasn't my point. And I don't think foreign rulers can be Ok. By definition.

@Arrowfar did you say you are from Karachi?

user116848

@FaheemMitha Yes I am. And you?

Faheem Mitha

@Arrowfar Bombay. I used to have relatives there, once.

user116848

Ah, I see.

Faheem Mitha

18:22

To be clear, used to have relatives in Karachi.

I suppose I still have relatives in Pakistan.

user116848

Ah. So you are a muslim too?

user116848

Well, the environment in this city has almost put me in a psych ward. But I struggle and try to remain happy.

user116848

I mean I have good friends, family etc. here.

Faheem Mitha

@Arrowfar I am, actually, yes. Well, ethnically.

user116848

@FaheemMitha I see :)

user116848

18:26

Karachi is on the 2nd largest city of the world list. I mean the population here is huge!

user116848

I think all large cities have problems.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha But what is "foreign"? If a ruler comes from a different region in the subcontinent and subjugates another region?

"Foreign" implies nations and borders; in this context it is part of the discourse of nationalism.

Much of the Mongol reign over China is seen as a stable, prosperous period, as opposed to many Chinese dynasties.

The same applies to Manchu rule.

And the Roman Empire.

And Hyksoi rule over Egypt.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus True. But a European imperial power is a very different animal from a local Indian ruler. And, to be honest, I forget what we were talking about.

Cerberus

I don't know that it is.

Let's agree that the British committed many atrocities and leave it at that.

Jez

yeah

and let's also say that Indians committed many atrocities, while we're generalizing

also, Dutch committed many atrocities

Cerberus

18:33

Yes, absolutely.

Also on other Dutchmen throughout history.

Jez

personally i don't have self-loathing so i don't dwell on it

Cerberus

Such an hiatus!

user116848

People are idiots as Mitch would put it.

Mitch

@Arrowfar I know!

@Jez I loathe people who don't hate themselves

user116848

I mean look at the poor donkey above (in the picture). It ain't no donkey's fault that he happened to be in Pakistan.

user116848

18:42

Same here. It ain't my fault that I was born here.

user116848

But I am no donkey, I use my brains.

user116848

At least I try to.

user116848

Btw so much interesting stuff goes on here everyday.

user116848

Funny too!

user116848

The problem here is lack of education in the country. Which is directly proportional to the poverty level here. I mean I am not rich either, but it takes some motivation to change one's situation here.

user116848

18:48

So I blame everyone here. Even police here asks for bribes. Ugh.

user116848

To top it off we have IS/Talibans etc. who does all the killings. And gang wars. Ugh.

user116848

And drones!

user116848

List goes on :-)

Mitch

Universal education in the US and people still have problems with science.

user116848

So here is the the way I see it, it is like a loop:

user116848

18:59

People whose countries are being destroyed like Iraq, Syria etc. they make a coalition/group like ISIS.

user116848

Because people are bent on taking revenge from everyone. Well, it is my theory.

user116848

I am against that all of course.

user116848

But interesting stuff. I mean If ISIS can have proper education and luxuries of life they would abandon thier ISISy thingies.

user116848

I should stop rambling :)

Jez

proper education

like not being indoctrinated into a religion

there's the rub. try and stop people from doing that en masse

user116848

19:04

Sorry, I mean like college education and proper upbringing.

user116848

Which is not possible without funds etc.

user116848

The way I see it: Poverty leads to all crimes.

user116848

Then they become extreme in the religion. Which taints the name of Islam.

user116848

So Islam is not the issue here. I am sure of it.

user116848

It is the people and their old habits.

user116848

19:11

But I read that ISIS already has 2 billion dollars. But all that for terrorism. D'oh.

user116848

> The International Business Times says ISIS is now worth $2 billion, making it wealthier than small countries such as Tonga, Kiribati, the Marshall Islands or the Falkland Islands.

user116848

ctvnews.ca/world/…

user116848

I don't know about the authenticity of that news though.

Jez

@Arrowfar they could have $99999999999999999999999 but if people won't sell them stuff it's worthless

user116848

@Jez Yeah. But there was no ISIS when their countries were intact, was there?

user116848

19:24

So what changed? Someone punched someone first (us or them), God knows who? And all the hell broke loose.

user116848

I mean I am talking any sides here. Just trying to understand a simple human mind.

user116848

And the mind works for all of us in the same way.

user116848

Yeah religion plays a role. But when you have no country, no place to shit, no place to eat, nothing. You go and buy an AK47 and go crazy. Because there are no colleges and system too.

user116848

That's the way I see it.

user116848

I am not taking any sides here of course btw :D

Jez

19:27

@Arrowfar doesnt explain people coming into ISIS territory and joining them, from foreign countries.

user116848

So everything is fucked up in the world.

user116848

@Jez Well, they must give some inspiring speeches I bet, that's why? :-)

user116848

I haven't heard any of course. But you know... all common sense.

user116848

Well, I am a Muslim myself and good thing I am educated and have a proper job. If not for that and my country got destroyed, God forbid, I'd be a jihadist too I can tell you that much. But I have a good upbringing and good education, thanks to god. Because sometimes when you are in a tough environment your mind works a little different.

crl

@Robusto but.. I need 25 lingots for that :) I would have to do all the beginning test to earn them probably

Jez

19:39

@Arrowfar im talking about people who join ISIS whose countries haven't been destroyed... unless of course those people feel that "their country" is not the country they immigrated into. which underlines my belief that immigrants need to integrate, and multiculturalism is a broken idea.

user116848

@Jez Well, I know many people that have gone to western countries for education and have settled their legally, and are happy. They don't bother anyone and no one bothers them. They know that they are in the international territory now (US or UK). So, saying that Muslim immigrants create problems is not correct. What I am saying has nothing to do with muslims in the west (immigrants), they all have a right to be happy.

user116848

So multiculturalusm is not a broken idea, no sir, it is a good idea (kinda).

Robusto

@crl You accrue lingots pretty quickly.

user116848

@Jez ISIS has their own ingenious ways of recruiting people. That has nothing to do with multiculturalusm and muslims in the west.

user116848

Well I am a bit newbie on this topic so don't take anything seriously :-)

user116848

19:53

I am writing relating to what I know and what I see.

user116848

It is all crazy stuff.

Jez

@Arrowfar they have no right to be happy. if someone makes a conscious decision to immigrate to another country, they should be prepared to take the consequences that come with that decision. that includes integrating into the new country, not expacting it to change to your wishes.

@Arrowfar i don't really agree. i think multiculturalism makes many western muslims much more "fertile recruiting ground" for the likes of ISIS

user116848

@Jez Well, they integrate, don't they? It is just a few here and there that create all the problem. So blaming Muslims in west in general doesn't make any sense.

user116848

@Jez Yes that is a good point. Well, some are crazy, they give up the good things to join the terrorists.

user116848

I mean it is all complicated stiff.

user116848

20:03

I can't answer it very clearly though. Just trying to make sense why ISIS is doing what they do.

Jez

@Arrowfar not when 60% of UK muslims want death for apostasy (or something like that), and sharia

that's not integrating

user116848

Yeah I can't say anything on that topic. It is all sensitive stuff man.

user116848

I mean I kinda get scared talking about that stuff.

Jez

right... you're in Pakistan?

user116848

To be honest their is a death penalty for that sort of thing is Islam.

user116848

20:05

@Jez Yes I am

Jez

sure. that's why i contend that Islam is incompatible with liberal democracy.

user116848

Well, Islam is strict!

Jez

but a lot of people want to "reform" it. they don't take the view that i do that it's unreformable.

user116848

And peaceful too. I know I sound ridiculous.

Jez

good luck - they'll need it. i say Muslims should just become atheists

user116848

20:06

haha

Jez

it's only peaceful if everyone is the same kind of Muslim.

otherwise, it is not peaceful

user116848

Well, I tried to be very open here today. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

user116848

I know and read a lot about Islam that's why I talked.

Jez

@Arrowfar the fact that you're nervous about discussing it kind of underlines my point about how "peaceful" Islam is.

every thinking person knows its true nature

user116848

@Jez Haha! Well, it is not like I am a wuss. I was just nervous about talking about the death penalty topic.

user116848

20:19

But the hell with it. I am still talking :-)

user116848

20:34

It is night time here.

user116848

I will continue this discussion with you some other day if you want. Take care, bye.

user116848

I have a lot to talk though. It is not like I stopped just here :)

user116848

I have some good arguments too. But I have to think a lot before typing here.

Johan Larsson

22:12

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 22 mins ago, by rightfold

> I knew someone that was frozen to absolute zero once. He was 0K.

pun for you

Robusto

22:22

@JohanLarsson I got it.

Johan Larsson

:)

Johan Larsson

22:48

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 3 mins ago, by fredoverflow

> Pull up to my bumper, baby
In your long black limousine

not very subtle

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