The Whiteboard

Telastyn

19:09

Yeah windows has an encryption store (maybe server only)

André

Eclipse use the SO encryption store on windows, so I assume it also works on standard version

user114359

I stayed up all night thinking of a way to describe my latest computer problem:

user114359

0

Q: Loud optical drive

At times, the Blu-ray drive in my computer will be very loud: it makes a grinding noise that I suspect is the drive motor. This is the computer equivalent of the sound a Honda Civic makes with an oversized tailpipe. This loud noise only occurs while reading discs, not writing. Sometimes it will...

user114359

I give you... the riceburner comparison!

Duga

Probably more appropriate for programmers.stackexchange.com — Jason Watkins 42 secs ago

This would be too broad for Programmers.SE: please read Where to start? — Snowman 10 secs ago

enderland

19:21

two bluray drives in one computer sounds... sketchy :)

user114359

@enderland Two BD-Rs, one in each of two computers.

enderland

oh. ha

user114359

Besides, I make enough money that I don't need to engage in any of those "sketchy" behaviors.

user114359

;-)

user114359

I came across this blog post: The Failure of Agile written by one of the authors of the Agile Manifesto. Interesting ideas: most organizations don't get Agile right (hammer, meet nail head); and software is grown, not built (which is what the Agile Manifesto basically says in a roundabout way).

Thomas Owens

19:35

1

Q: C++ - why does the main function use 'char *argv[]'?

I was wondering why C++ uses the following function prototype for the main() function: int main(int argc, char *argv[]); instead of something like: int main(std::vector<std::string> argv); What's the reasoning behind using the first? Why not just go with the (much more modern) version using...

c++

Seriously? Close votes? You can't vote to close as a duplicate of a question on a different site, and it's a design question, which makes it on-topic for Programmers.

I totally don't get the flags and votes being raised on this one at all.

user41796

@ThomasOwens The premise behind that question is painful

user41796

> Why not just go with the (much more modern) version using vectors and strings?

user41796

I fully agree with you regarding not closing as dupe of a Q on SO though

Thomas Owens

Allow me to do the correct thing here.

user55340

Copy the best so answer as committed wiki because the current one is... Poor?

user114359

19:38

I think the cross-posting guidance is relevant here: answer fragmentation.

user55340

... And the delete the poor one, stick a mod notice about the comprehensive one on so, and lock it?

user114359

If the question is going to stay open then @MichaelT has the right idea

Robert Harvey

0

Q: Tornado Framework's Design Pattern

I'm working on a article about design patterns for web applications that demand high load and performance. I'm basically trying to compare an event-based web aplication to it's correspondent multi-thread/multi-process version of the same web application made by me. I'm using Python with Tornado t...

design-patterns python event-programming

Thomas Owens

Now, someone up votes my Community Wiki answer so it gets marked as answered and we're done.

@ChrisF >_<

user41796

@ThomasOwens Um, I can't seem to up vote your answer.... Something seems wrong....

Thomas Owens

19:44

Yeah...one sec.

user55340

To the blue room!(?)

Thomas Owens

Problem solves.

user55340

One more down vote on the other answer and we can get 20k delete voted on it...

user41796

Would be kinder to just convert it to a comment

Thomas Owens

And then nuke the comment?

Robert Harvey

19:48

What are you guys trying to do? Aren't you a mod? Don't you have absolute power?

Duga

Not a fit for SO, but might work on programmers.stackexchange.com — j08691 10 secs ago

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey We just fixed the question.

1

Q: In C++, why does the main function use 'char *argv[]'?

I was wondering why C++ uses the following function prototype for the main() function: int main(int argc, char *argv[]); instead of something like: int main(std::vector<std::string> argv); What's the reasoning behind using the first? Why not just go with the (much more modern) version using...

c++ language-design

Duga

@j08691 this question would be closed on Programmers for the same reason it was closed here. — Snowman 40 secs ago

user55340

Note that cmaster is a new user. We want to provide some pointers (beyond votes) about the expectations of answer quality.

user114359

@cmaster ping!

Thomas Owens

19:52

I think now the question is in the intended state.

With the right comments and answers and stuff.

Did I miss anything?

user41796

@Snowman Pretty certain that won't ping them.

user55340

It is in a reasonable state.

user114359

@GlenH7 ah, don't they need a chat account linked?

Thomas Owens

I do wish linking to questions across sites was better.

user41796

@Snowman yes

Thomas Owens

19:53

But wasn't it in here that we agreed a CW answer with pointers was the best?

user41796

or a blue name to super-ping them

user41796

@ThomasOwens it's a reasonable approach

Robert Harvey

Do today's developers only have the ability to speak in GOF patterns?

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Maybe.

enderland

superping doesn't work for someone without 20 rep though, afaik

unless you specifically invite them to a chat room

user55340

19:54

@RobertHarvey college is an Abstract Developer Factory now.

Thomas Owens

When I TA'd the object oriented design course, the book was the GoF book. But I tried to get people to just think about good designs.

user55340

@enderland the user is an 11k on SO.

Thomas Owens

I don't really care about patterns. I just want to see a reasonable, implementable, testable design.

user114359

I actually just reread the GoF book with an eye toward "how has this aged 20 years later?"

user55340

@ThomasOwens ever read the book that inspired it?

Thomas Owens

19:55

@MichaelT The architecture book about cities and buildings? No.

user55340

I recommend it. Third link in my profile.

user114359

To sum it up in one idea: the GoF patterns are quite relevant today, but most of them are buried in frameworks and APIs that already implement them. Focusing on "design patterns" is almost counterproductive in my opinion.

enderland

@MichaelT .... well that's definitely enough

user55340

GoF, I feel set forth too rigid of a structure with the language and examples in the book.

Robert Harvey

GOF pattern: "My braindead language won't do this thing that I can do readily in a more expressive language, so here's a workaround."

Thomas Owens

19:57

Just added it to my amazon Wishlist. I wonder...if I put my Amazon Wishlist in my profile, do you think anyone would buy me books randomly?

user55340

It made them look like building blocks rather than organic solutions.

user55340

@ThomasOwens who knows. One way to find it out.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey A friend of my describes it that way, too.

Anyway, I'm out. Good night, all.

gnat

Isn't that stack overflow? — Meitar 5 mins ago

wow. Just... wow

user114359

I think the GoF book is valuable though, it pointed out the fact that the languages and technologies of the 90s were inadequate to express our designs without a lot of extra work.

user55340

20:02

They still are... Just that work is in frameworks that are easily accessible on ways they weren't in the late 80s and for another decade or so.

user114359

@MichaelT Which sums up my previous post :-)

JoeP

we used the head first book...

i dont know how i feel about them

Robert Harvey

20:28

You can feel just fine about them, so long as you don't start parading them around like they're gold coins.

Software patterns are tools, just like any other tool. You don't ask "Which tools should I use to fix this roof?" Because if you have to ask that question, you don't know enough to fix the roof.

5

Egad, I finally found an adequate way to express my cognitive dissonance about them.

user41796

Yeah, that's a pretty good metaphor

Robert Harvey

I think I finally understand why C++ exists. It's all about "You don't pay for what you don't use." That explains all of its inherent complexity.

user41796

@RobertHarvey That's a fairly accurate statement regarding C++

user41796

And C for that matter

enderland

hey cool about to repcap here

user41796

20:35

Some of the zealots will argue about whether foo belongs in a particular standard library or not, and will go so far as to roll their own version of the standard library. But the premise behind your statement is correct.

user20683

Like it says in GoF (good if highly, highly overrated book), design patterns are communication tools, not recipes.

user20683

@GlenH7 The "D" problem

user41796

C and C++ came out of times when every single resource mattered. And bloat was to be avoided like the plague

Robert Harvey

I think that, if I started with C (which I consider more or less smart assembly language), added classes to it, and continued improving it with the singular focus of not paying for what you don't use, I think I would wind up with a similar language to C++, minus the templates perhaps.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Yep, pretty much

enderland

20:36

@GlenH7 technically resources matter still, just a lot cheaper to scale up to make the language choice less relevant

user41796

@enderland correct

user41796

The fundamental prism has shifted.

enderland

I'm curious if/when it'll shift back

user41796

Previously, equipment resources were the constraining factor. Programmer time was effectively infinite. Now that's reversed.

user20683

one of these days, I'm gonna try for a C with prototypes

user20683

20:37

just to see what happens

Robert Harvey

@WorldEngineer Javascript?

user41796

@enderland I don't know that it ever will. I don't see that as a cycle - just an evolutionary shift.

user20683

@RobertHarvey kinda?

user20683

Javascript looks nothing like C under the hood

Robert Harvey

True that.

user41796

20:39

<rant> what an afternoon for endless crap questions on the main site. </rant>

Robert Harvey

So C with prototypes. Sounds cool.

Although, I think you can sorta do that already with ordinary functions, and perhaps structs. Not sure how closures would work though.

user20683

@RobertHarvey not a clue

user20683

it's more a thought experiment than anything else. C++ = C with simula style classes, Objective C = C with Smalltalk style classes/objects

user20683

totally separate note, the other day I realized that Shaman in WoW are basically that game's bards.

user20683

I then realized that I am a god-tier nerd

user20683

20:42

and humble too :P

user41796

@WorldEngineer exceptionally so

durron597

My code golf question is +7/-7. You don't see that every day

JoeP

im feeling pretty BOBed right now

I think ill start using that as a feeling

user114359

Could we remove the downvotes and close votes from this?

user114359

0

Q: In C++, why does the main function use 'char *argv[]'?

I was wondering why C++ uses the following function prototype for the main() function: int main(int argc, char *argv[]); instead of something like: int main(std::vector<std::string> argv); What's the reasoning behind using the first? Why not just go with the (much more modern) version using...

c++ language-design

user20683

20:50

@Snowman close votes I can remove by closing and reopening. I can't do jack about up/downvotes

durron597

@Snowman Well one minus became a plus.

user114359

@WorldEngineer I was hoping the people who cast votes would retract them

user114359

And with CVs it will end up in the queue, and someone might create more work for @ThomasOwens to undo... again.

user114359

@JoeP I am still trying to figure out that question: was the asker referring to Microsoft Bob?

user20683

@Snowman BoB could be "Band of Brothers" from EVE but they've not been around in nearly a decade.

MetaFight

20:52

@RobertHarvey Hope you don't mind me linking to this post in my profile. You're in good company with Eric Lippert!

user41796

@WorldEngineer I think it would be appropriate to roll off the close votes on the question. Thomas did some finagling with the question to make it workable.

user20683

@GlenH7 way ahead of you :)

user41796

roll off == close & reopen

user41796

@WorldEngineer I blame caching

durron597

@WorldEngineer are you able to see who close voted a question prior to closure?

Actually I guess any blue name could answer that q

enderland

20:54

yes

though I have never once looked at that unltil just now

user20683

@enderland is that a new feature?

enderland

@WorldEngineer goto the timeline

20

Q: Having trouble working with a programming buddy, do I just let poor design choices go, or keep endlessly fighting over it?

I've found myself in a tough spot as of late. Been working on a game with a programming buddy for nearly 8 months now. We both started off as newcomers to programming around August of last year, he is a 2nd year CS student, I'm an IT support tech by trade and am a self-taught programmer with mult...

code-quality refactoring teamwork hacks

I made a pretty significant edit to this to bring it back on scope here

JoeP

@Snowman I honestly have no idea.

user114359

@enderland +20 and on hold. Eh?

durron597

cv-pls dv-pls cast-down-into-abyss-pls programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/283822/…

JoeP

20:56

but being BOBed just sounds like a depressing state... 'man,, i got laid of today and Im just so BOBed'

user114359

Also, Office Space. Man, I got Bobbed today... the Bobs laid me off!

Ixrec

@Snowman that one still feels like it'd be a good question over on The Workplace, not sure if we should try to move it there or not...

Robert Harvey

@MetaFight Link away.

enderland

@Snowman it seems like a good question with a bit of scope, basically, "when is a project/software team a lost cause?"

user114359

@Ixrec That would be for @enderland to decide: @WorldEngineer could migrate there if they agree.

Ixrec

20:58

true

user114359

But from what I remember I think it was too software-specific

user114359

I don't feel like reading that wall of text again.

Ixrec

it was pretty software-specific

I guess that answers my question of where do you ask the programming-specific "Workplace-style" questions

durron597

@enderland I don't see close votes in the timeline. Is that diamond only? Do you see close votes in this timeline @enderland ?

enderland

@durron597 mods have a lot more fancy timeline

user114359

21:00

@Ixrec Back when there were two or three SE sites it was pretty easy to know where to ask stuff. There are quite a few gray areas and overlaps now.

enderland

@Ixrec some of those can be on topic here, as long as they are very scoped to software dev related issues (not "I'm a software dev with a workplace issue" but more "I've a software dev specific issue")

user114359

That makes it even more important to check around when asking a question that could possibly be on-topic in more than one place

Ixrec

too bad we can't agree on whether it's too opinion-based or not

I'm tempted to reopen-vote but I can't really deny that it's attracting the answer-spam typical of an opinion poll

durron597

@enderland Next time you make a significant edit like that, can you remove tags like hacks too please? ;)

enderland

I ALWAYS forget tags when I do those sorts of edits

is that pretty on topic here now? I'm not sure what your line is for that sort of thing

user114359

21:03

Now that I can edit tags inline I always forget when editing the subject/body

enderland

@Snowman +1

JoeP

#hax

durron597

@enderland If you have any left you can nominate for reopening zee old fashioned way

enderland

@durron597 I don't have 3k rep...

durron597

@enderland Ah right crap. I keep waiting for you to post more answers so I can upvote them.

Ixrec

21:05

okay I reopen voted

user114359

I think that question is technically on-topic, but validly closed as opinion-based even with the edit. I think it is a perfect example of How do I explain ${something} to ${someone}?

user55340

Proposal: mod association bonus gives +3k rep on all sites. (No not serious)

Ixrec

I thought the crux of the question was whether to keep working with this person, not how to explain things to them (the OP is convinced he cannot be explained to)

I guess this means it needs further editing to clarify what the main point is

enderland

@Snowman we've had really good success turning "what do I do?" questions to "what factors should I use to make this decisino?"

gnat

@enderland now you only have to vote down / flag all the answers invalidated by the edit, possibly along with all bikeshed answers it attracted at all

enderland

21:09

I clarified this some in hopes to make it more on-topic - if this changed your intent too much feel free to edit it and clarify. I'm trying to make it less "tell me what to do?" and more "what factors can I use to decide this?" which is more easily answerable in a Q/A format. — enderland 5 secs ago

gnat

community protection could be there already if it wasn't so friggin' insenstitive to upvotes from hot list lemmings...

1

A: How many questions escape community protection because of reputation gained within checked question?

Observing for last 5-6 months how protection works (or more precisely fails to work) leaves me quite disappointed. Unless stats show that my observations somehow miss the big picture, I would say that it is probably broken, at least at the sites I am active at (Programmers and Workplace). As an ...

user20683

Korpiklaani – Sahti (With lyrics) HD

►

user20683

Korpiklaani (Finnish Folk Metal) released their newest album like a week ago

user20683

Sahti for reference is home-brewed beer

user20683

Sahti

Sahti is a traditional beer from Finland made from a variety of grains, malted and unmalted, including barley, rye, wheat, and oats; sometimes bread made from these grains is fermented instead of malt itself. Traditionally the beer is flavored with juniper berries in addition to, or instead of, hops; the mash is filtered through juniper twigs through a trough-shaped tun called a kuurna in Finnish. Sahti has a distinct banana flavor due to the production of isoamyl acetate by the yeast. Sahti is a top-fermented brew (ale), and while baking yeast has been used traditionally, ale yeast may also be...

Robert Harvey

21:19

@WorldEngineer That is a strange brew.

user20683

@RobertHarvey appropriate since so many of their songs are about getting shitfaced

Robert Harvey

Accordion and thrash guitar. Mind blown.

user20683

See: Vodka, Tequila, Happy Little Boozer, Wooden Pints

user20683

KORPIKLAANI - Happy Little Boozer

►

gnat

Nightwish - Sleeping Sun (old sound, new video)

►

^^^ video reminds of Programmers front page today

user20683

21:24

@gnat I was never terribly fond of Tarja

user20683

the new album though, most metal thing Richard Dawkins has ever done

user15026

@WorldEngineer The new album makes me so happy

user55340

/me puts on headphones playing yo-yo ma

gnat

@WorldEngineer well I am fond of her, because she helped me to seduce my wife

user20683

@gnat I'm not saying one should not be fond of her :)

user20683

21:28

I am not but I also started listening to Nightwish around 2004ish anyway

user20683

Korpiklaani - Minä Näin Vedessä Neidon ( Noita )

►

user15026

For me it was later than that even. Post 2006 for sure.

user55340

Suite for solo cello #1 in g major (bwv 1007: Prelude)

gnat

@WorldEngineer if memory serves, their popularity exploded around that time, 2003-2004

user20683

@gnat that and I went to college in 2004

user20683

21:29

so I had absolute control over my media environment

user15026

@MichaelT Holy shit, my ears, they are so happy right now.

user20683

I honestly can't recall who introduced me to them

user20683

I know who introduced me to Korpiklaani

user20683

that was the former and possibly current webmaster for 40k Radio

user55340

Bach - Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major BWV1007 - Mov. 1-3/6

►

user20683

21:31

I forget his handle but he worked as a game dev in SoCal

user15026

Most of my like of metal and things of that ilk came from my ex-wife. Before that my life was pretty much entirely country music, with some dipping into CCM stuff in my teens before I got bored of it

user15026

Country is still my go-to genre though.

user20683

@AshleyNunn I've introduced you to all manner of oddball stuff

user15026

@WorldEngineer Yeah, you really, really have :D It's wonderful

user55340

I like my metal and singer songwriter... But for some reason here Bach cello solos are the right music for headphones.

user15026

21:32

My mom scrolled through my mp3 player the other weekend and was like "is there anything you don't listen to" and I was like "rap, because I find the lack of melody uncomfortable, and opera, because the sounds are too high and wobbly"

user15026

@MichaelT I'd never listened to this before - I love it, I think it would be a good thing to study to

user55340

@AshleyNunn magic flute?

user55340

@AshleyNunn ever watch Master and Commander?

user15026

@MichaelT I am really bad at classical - I like the idea of a lot of it, I just never know what to try because I don't know how to articulate the sounds I find appealing

user15026

@MichaelT I can't remember if I have. I don't think so.

gnat

21:34

@MichaelT played by Pablo Casals?

@AshleyNunn try Wagner's overtures

user20683

okay so the next one is Korpiklaani's cover of possibly one of the most familiar songs that you've no idea who sang it

user55340

Master Commander "Violin & Cello scene"

►

user20683

Korpiklaani - Jouni Jouni

►

user20683

Points for the first to figure it out

user20683

without looking at the net

gnat

21:37

...and Beethoven's 5th 3rd movement

user55340

MASTER AND COMMANDER FINAL SONG

►

user15026

@WorldEngineer A Billy Idol song, but I can't remember the title.

user20683

@AshleyNunn he's famous for covering it

user20683

most people (me included) think it's his

user15026

@WorldEngineer Well, then I did pretty well for a blind listen.

user20683

21:41

this is the original

user20683

Mony Mony by Tommy James & The Shondells

►

user20683

The question is: "What the hell is a "Shondell"?"

user15026

yeah, I've only ever heard it as a Billy Idol thing

user20683

@AshleyNunn yeah, because he's way more interesting than this crew

user20683

I'm not fond of the late 60s as a musical period

user20683

21:42

rolling stones and a few others excepted

user15026

@WorldEngineer "In 1964 James renamed the band the Shondells because the name "sounded good."", says Wikipedia

user20683

@AshleyNunn I probably should have done some research :P

Robert Harvey

Robert and the Rutabagas.

user20683

@RobertHarvey Robert and the Routers

user20683

:P

Robert Harvey

21:45

For the record, hitting a guitar like that makes a terrible sound.

Also, "Crimson and Clover" is better, even though it's two different songs with different tunings pasted together.

gnat

@WorldEngineer original is good and cover is a real killer, thanks!

Robert Harvey

The Routers. I'll have to remember that. Complete with Cisco product placement.

gnat

Master of Puppets - Apocalyptica

►

^^^ @MichaelT meets @WorldEngineer

user15026

@gnat Apocalyptica! <3

user15026

This reminds me I really need to expand my music collection as I have time and money

user15026

21:53

right now I am relying on things I get from other people (which means mostly mom, so mostly country)

gnat

@AshleyNunn Patsy Cline?

user15026

@gnat Some, yes - my dad is responsible for anything classic country I have, mom is more recent country

gnat

@AshleyNunn I know she's (very) old fashioned but haven't heard better country than her

user55340

Blind Guardian - The Wizard

►

user15026

@gnat I like a lot of ladies of her era - Loretta, Dolly, Patsy, all of them make me a happy me

gnat

21:56

@AshleyNunn others of that era are good, too, but Patsy is... special

user15026

There is definitely something about her, yeah :)

gnat

Lady In Black - Uriah Heep

►

user55340

(Much prefer BG over the Uriah version... Watch if you dare...)

user55340

Uriah Heep - The Wizard

►

user55340

The hair should be warning enough...

user20683

22:00

@MichaelT reminds me of me about 5 year ago

user55340

Same shirt(less)?

user20683

@MichaelT there is one person in the room who has shirtless privileges with me ;P

gnat

@MichaelT interesting. I like BG's cover, but prefer UH. Guess I just got used to Byron's vocals :)

Uriah Heep - Easy Livin'

►

user20683

Party All The Time - Eddie Murphy (HQ Audio)

►

user20683

original

gnat

22:03

livin' is easy but getting used to their vocal ain't

user20683

vs cover:

user20683

Children of Bodom- Party All The Time(Eddie Murphy Cover)

►

user55340

@gnat I'd put it on the excessive voice manipulation at the end of phrases in UH that gets to me.

user20683

22:20

@MichaelT @gnat They are still at it

user20683

Uriah Heep - Nail On The Head [HQ]

►

gnat

@WorldEngineer I just tested, UH is best to listen when reviewing in SO close queue. Brings easy to vote garbage questions and apparent audits. Eddie Murphy and Children Of Bodom work much worse

user20683