The Whiteboard

user55340

12:10 AM

0

Q: Does closing a question before an answer is received change the behavior of a user on future question?

One of those ideas that got bantered around - does closing a question have any evidence at modifying a user's future behavior if it happens before they get an answer? We often see people ask a question, get an answer, and then get the question closed for one reason or another. Also, there are ti...

Robert Harvey

12:50 AM

0

Q: Equivalent translation of Asynchronous behaviour in C

As a follow-up to my other question, if one were to build a general-purpose translator from a language that has support (be it with an external library or otherwise) for asynchronous behaviour to a language that may or may not natively support it (let's use C as an example), then is it a semantic...

programming-languages c asynchronous-programming

This guy's almost as bad as Overexchange.

André

nods

Robert Harvey

I'm too pragmatic for this kind of speculative horsehocky.

If it has an answer, it's more likely to be found on CS.SE. I've flagged to have it migrated there.

André

would be appropriate to ask the terminology for such structure?

as in the timer/callback

I googled that, found what he was looking for, aparently

Robert Harvey

I hate 'name that thing' questions.

Also, this:

Aw, c'mon. Is Google broken today? Here, here, and here. — Robert Harvey 2 mins ago

André

know that feel

I tried to contribute to SO, realized that most of the questions are answered by google

Robert Harvey

1:01 AM

Some questions are answered better by Google than others.

Few questions are a slam dunk, but that language keywords one is.

André

nods

Robert Harvey

Some people are just shockingly bad at using Google. It took me awhile to get good at searching for things.

André

Good questions on SO usually have really good answers already. I feel like a junior developer sometimes around P.SE

Telastyn

I got good at finding things via AltaVista, so when google arrived, it was piece of cake.

André

@Telastyn that

I had Cadê

it was bought by yahoo

it was worse nthan AltaVista

Telastyn

1:05 AM

yahoo is still worse than AltaVista.

André

hahaha

hey @Telastyn would you kindly share you resume again? I'm writing mine now, I could use some inspiration

user55340

perl.plover.com/classes/HashHistory/samples/slide024.html

user55340

> AVL trees

Undergraduates are still regularly tormented with this useless crap.

user55340

From Historical how and why of hash tables

André

Thanks @MichaelT, my evening is complete

"Oh the horror"

user55340

1:12 AM

I don't know anywhere avl trees are used. The only thing I can think of their use is that if you understand how to build and manipulate them, you can do anything with a tree.

user55340

When I took data structures class... it was the first taught in C++. It was also taught by a professor who specialized in DBAs. One day he started a lecture with "today, we are going to work on chapter something in the textbook on AVL trees... and then he tried to keep a straight face and started laughing. "No, we aren't. They're useless. Today we're going to deal with 2-3 trees and then on to B* trees."

André

haha. I took data structure classes with java, I think I dealt with B* tree at most too. Frankly, AVL tree are a bit of a mystery to me

It was hinted that it exists and it's applications

10

Q: AVL Trees and the REAL world

in school we are taught how we can balance an AVL tree upon an insertion or deleting. How is this type of knowledge actually going to be useful in the real world? Can someone give an example on when this type of knowledge would actually be useful? From what I have seen, in the workplace such d...

algorithms data-structures

Telastyn

sorry, no longer at my main machine.

user55340

AVL tree

In computer science, an AVL tree (Georgy Adelson-Velsky and Landis' tree, named after the inventors) is a self-balancing binary search tree. It was the first such data structure to be invented. In an AVL tree, the heights of the two child subtrees of any node differ by at most one; if at any time they differ by more than one, rebalancing is done to restore this property. Lookup, insertion, and deletion all take O(log n) time in both the average and worst cases, where n is the number of nodes in the tree prior to the operation. Insertions and deletions may require the tree to be rebalanced by one...

user55340

> In computer science, an AVL tree (Georgy Adelson-Velsky and Landis' tree, named after the inventors) is a self-balancing binary search tree. It was the first such data structure to be invented.

user55340

1:25 AM

That's part of the reason that they were taught for so long.

user55340

It was 10 years (1962 - 1972) before the Red Black and the B* tree came about.

user55340

The 2-3 tree was 1970.

user55340

Splay tree wasn't until 1985. Skip list was 1989.

André

That is alright @Telastyn, thanks anyway :)

user55340

0

Q: How to avoid web development

I've spent the majority of my career building desktop applications. But I think any developer would be foolish to ignore the trend toward internet applications at this point. It's tough to deny the value in hosted software from a user's perspective. The problem is, I've tried web development - ma...

career-development

user55340

1:31 AM

From a nearly 2k rep user.

Telastyn

If you're asking that question now... just put the rock back where you found it.

André

I'd go lower level, I had lots of fun playing with micro controllers.

user55340

There's lots of app work out there if you look for it. I did 2 years of Point of Sales stand lone Java SE application code.

user55340

And then there was the estimator project (stand alone application that you could build a foundation for a building or deck or some other sort of construction material and it would estimate what materials you would need and how much that would cost...

André

it was fun? I coded a similar thing once, for a pharmacy

user55340

1:37 AM

Point of sales could have been fun if the company culture was better.

André

And a "estimator" for a printing budget too

for printing*

nods same deal to me

It could have been fun

user55340

That was an entire department working on the estimator. They had workflow problems with not understanding how to use source control, build tools, or CI.

André

I'm trying to advocate for quality at my current job. I'm the single dev, so I just get slow nods from the management

Next step is trying to have CI and writing unit testing, at least for new code

user55340

We just got a "oops... we need some quality" moment yesterday.

André

how so?

user55340

1:40 AM

Fortunately the rest client that used it was still in testing rather than deployed.

user55340

Another dev changed some backend code and introduced a NPE way deep in the system with a constructor... and that broke lots of data in the system I was working on.

user55340

If that happened two weeks later, it really would have hit the fan.

André

wow, sounds like trouble

rolfl

Oh, oddly I know someone else in the department of corrections in a US state... wonder if it is the same state.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn that stinks, and what a shit severance. Cheers and good luck; you have family to take care of?

user55340

1:42 AM

@rolfl my location is in my profile.

Jimmy Hoffa

Have a look at the highly voted questions that aren't closed for a while to get an idea what is on topic. There are lots of things, it's just not everyone's cup of tea- you have to enjoy high level abstraction more than anything. In answer to your question though; I find front-end UI work tedious and have stuck with middleware/backend service development. There's still plenty of that in the modern web world, all you need worry about is designing data models/APIs and processing data and doing CRUD operations. Let the front-end guys make UIs that call your services. It's what I do. — Jimmy Hoffa 2 mins ago

@rolfl one in every family...

Telastyn

@JimmyHoffa - not so much. two incomes, no kids.

rolfl

> South Dakota

Jimmy Hoffa

:21360962 4 years, that's nothing.

rolfl

not same state

Jimmy Hoffa

1:43 AM

@Telastyn ah DINK, at least you have that going for you, that helps a lot in giving you time if you end up needing it.

user55340

@Telastyn I'd seriously be looking at taking a vacation in there if your spouse can do it too.

André

@JimmyHoffa, been at a worse situation?

Telastyn

yeah, we're seriously going to Vegas in 3-4 weeks. Been planned for months. Mostly paid for already too

user55340

I'm a SINN (Single Income, No Nothing)... lets me be free and irresponsible. As long as my cat has food, he's happy (~$1/day for cat food)

André

Could have been worse alright, at least I "mavenized" the build

Jimmy Hoffa

1:44 AM

@André most people in this room have. Right now I work in a system with 20 years of technical debt. My last place was ~30 (originally pascal, ported through an automated program in the 90s to delphi, ported through another automated program to C# later)

Telastyn

ewww

André

eww

user55340

ew

rolfl

w ?

user55340

I'd go with just 'e'. At least its irrational.

rolfl

1:45 AM

i

user55340

Now you're just pretending.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn no kidding, they could hardly keep the system functioning, they were so afraid for it's stability they continually hired engineers as if having more programmers would reduce the risk, and to further reduce the risk - they never let anyone change the code! It was hilarious.

well...for some value of hilarious anyway...

André

@JimmyHoffa, I hope I never bump into something like that

Jimmy Hoffa

@André welcome to the industry, stuff like that is not uncommon. 4 year old software is basically a baby.

There's much truth in the quote a friend of mine used to use:

rolfl

I work at IBM .... 4 years? Diapers....

Jimmy Hoffa

1:47 AM

> Show me a software company without legacy software, and I'll show you a software company without software.

Telastyn

yeh, near the end of my Dad's career they had him teach Indian guys Cobol rather than port the code.

André

I always get the feeling I'm a junior or intern around you guys

user55340

> Internal IT Group - Buildings Pi, E, and C are older than the main buildings but are still part of the Googleplex. They house the internal IT department and employee e-mail system for the campus. It's the nervous system that eventually leads to the cold, merciless, and yet non-evil brain of the entire operation.

rolfl

@André - interesting philosophy. I have, technically, "been around", yet, I work daily with people with twice my experience, and others who are half my age....

it is very confusing feeling "old" one moment, then sitting with someone who's been at IBM for 50 years.

Jimmy Hoffa

experience has little meaning though... so many people I've worked with that repeated their first year 10 or 15 times...

Telastyn

1:50 AM

they are the worst.

user55340

Lets see... worked (as a contractor) SGI, Sun, Cisco, then at a startup for two months (paycheck bounced the first month), back to SGI as a contractor, - that was all two years. Then Netapp for over a decade... then IT for a large retail company (4 years), web dev in a small (< 10 devs) GIS shop (1 year)... and now employed in state government.

André

Time to learn about haskell

Jimmy Hoffa

Somebody get that man mod privileges!

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Codeless Code: Ten Thousand Mistakes

rolfl

Huh, @MichaelT - I'm 1 year older than you.

I started on languages most folk never knew existed.

Adabas and Natural.

user55340

1:52 AM

@rolfl umm... welcome to the curmudgeon club? @RobertHarvey is our president.

6

rolfl

Yeah, I hang out with a few fogies.

user55340

Note: I'm still one of the younger ones in the state government office I'm in.

user55340

(about 7 years ago or so... it was really bad and one of the nice things about state jobs - they're easy to transfer out of... and everyone did - off to other departments and agencies... left a huge hole in the ranks... and well, its not a "sexy" place to go work)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT what you've said though has so far made it sound like you're not trudging through decrepit evilness all day though

rolfl

IBM bought the company I worked for... as a result, I went from being a young guy, to being one of many. At the time I liked that.

Now I realize I have not been at IBM long enough, but am too old to be new.

user55340

1:56 AM

@JimmyHoffa It's not a bad place at all. It's just a bit behind the times in some places because of the "nothing grew for half a decade"

André

I always worked alone, or I ended up being the most experienced, as the software developer. It's really nice to hang around more experience developers

user55340

The tales I heard of that time though... "no drive bys" was a policy. People were having trouble getting things done so they'd have to ask another dev to help out (the infrastructure to get things done wasn't there). So when managers asked "why were things not getting done - they got the answer "oh, I was helping Bob with XYZ""... so from way up high the policy of "you need your manager's permission to get help from another dev" came down.

user55340

And well, I want you to picture a workplace where you can't ask anyone else for any help without emailing your manager who would approve (or decline) that help request of another dev.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT my company's odd now, they have an onion, the core was 95 VC++, then they put a .NET layer over that in 2002 in hopes of replacing it (which never happened), then another layer over that in hopes o replacing everything behind it in 2008, and it's still not been replaced. The weird thing is, it's a huge lot of software but has subsisted all these years on 5-10 developers. Thus why they've never replaced- never enough manpower to do feature and rework

(or they just never cared about rework)

I've never before seen so much software managed and maintained by so few before though. Is the strangest thing about this place to me.

Management always tried running lean, low cost high profit model

user55340

The dbas who have been there forever (15+ years - one graduated two years before me from Madison) have commented that our manager is one of the key ones to work on changing the culture back to one where technology people are not in a rush to transfer out.

André

2:00 AM

And I'm just struggling to get the frontend framework replaced. haha

user55340

And also to update the technology stack that we work with and how we work with others. Its a place where you can see the culture changing slowly (even with as little time as I've been there).

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT haha and this is precisely the sort of reason I do everything I can to never work where management isn't comprised of ex-dev/tech folk. This sort of thing would never make sense to anyone who's done the actual techw ork before.

user55340

One of the big changes (part of that 'hit the fan') is before every dev was able to keep the entire project they were working on in their head. Well, I'm working on this code that before it was just one or a very few working together very closely...

user55340

so, we're going to have to grow up a bit and be a bit more disciplined on coding and testing because there are more people working in the code at a given time.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa State government - the management on high are elected and/or appointed by elected... and they are often in the business side of the house rather than technology (and in the department I'm in... well... you get the idea)

user55340

2:03 AM

Though again, it can be an exciting time to be here because of how things are working, the change in culture and the change in technology.

Jimmy Hoffa

it's interesting the tradeoffs of having few vs many devs working in a code base. I've typically worked places where many had their hands in the pie, and now being on a team of 4 people where no one else touches any of our system... There are so many things you can be so lazy about without causing problems that would have terrible consequences if say 20 devs were in the system.

user55340

One of our facilities... well, they've all got automated doors. We (burro of technology management) were trying to persuade the head of the facility that they really wanted to be using the same system (automated doors) as the rest so that they could be supported by us. They were balking... the door automation system broke during that meeting, they called up the vendor who explained that the engineers who could fix it were away at a conference for a week and wouldn't be able to help.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Not all business people are clueless about the value of trusting and relying on expert opinions and such. At Employer^^ we got all our tech direction mostly from a marketing guy, but he was previously a marketing manager for WebSphere MQ so while he was an MBA, he was actually very good at being helpful and not in the way.

Requirements gathering from him was always a breeze.

user55340

The head of the facility then impressed upon them the importance of these particular door automation systems in this facility and arrangements were made (billed at an absurd rate)... and then the BTM management types were "um... we could have fixed that if you used the doors the rest of the system uses..."

André

@JimmyHoffa that is nice

Jimmy Hoffa

2:06 AM

it's not the norm, but it happens and it is awesome.

@MichaelT right hand left hand problems baffle tech folks I think because relying on colleagues for help is second nature; we'd get nothing done otherwise. Seeing management folk having zero idea what each other are doing/have done when reuse is our core mantra is so weird... I think it comes down to business people are used to thinking in terms of competition where tech folk are used to thinking in terms of collaboration.

Businesses get built from the ground up, tech is all integration.

user55340

Yep... just an example of what happened during that time. It really cut out a large part of the tech staff quite rapidly. Its just now starting to get filled back in.

user15026

Man, I read this stuff and am further convinced you lot are utter wizards for putting up with this kind of stuff

user55340

>
Imagine joining an engineering team. You're excited and full of ideas, probably just out of school and a world of clean, beautiful designs, awe-inspiring in their aesthetic unity of purpose, economy, and strength. You start by meeting Mary, project leader for a bridge in a major metropolitan area. Mary introduces you to Fred, after you get through the fifteen security checks installed by Dave because Dave had his sweater stolen off his desk once and Never Again. Fred only works with wood, so you ask why he's involved because this bridge is supposed to allow rush-hour traffic full of cars …

user55340

The thing is... everywhere is like this in one way, shape, or form.

Telastyn

yeah, pretty much. Because every job requires other people, who are the worst.

user55340

2:18 AM

Its part of the "no, I can't get excited about working there at an interview, because I know it is very much like everywhere else I've worked... not that that is good or bad, its just you won't find me going 'yippie! I want to work with collage loan finance systems'"

user15026

@MichaelT My brain hurts now

user55340

(and yes, that was a real example and no, I didn't get excited.. that was where I had that silly pre-recorded video interview where I had to "dress up" to sit in front of my computer and talk about three awful softball questions that sucked")

user55340

@AshleyNunn The rest of the article: Programming Sucks

user20683

@MichaelT and game programming sucks especially hard

user55340

@WorldEngineer That's a special type of suck.

user55340

2:21 AM

And then there's Game QA... and well... I'm sure that's its own level of hell.

user20683

@MichaelT yeah, it's sucking with even less job security and more math than most care to know

user15026

@MichaelT oh god

user20683

medical imaging if you want to do 3d but have some sanity

user20683

or scientific visuals

user55340

Tales from the Trenches

user20683

2:22 AM

or well most anything really

user55340

@WorldEngineer What’s up with Donuts?... hows that for job security?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer and more overtime than is healthy or particularly safe

user15026

@MichaelT Is that why Tim Hortons does so well here?

user55340

@AshleyNunn On being a female game tester

user15026

@MichaelT Oh, I can see that happening.

user55340

2:27 AM

@AshleyNunn Doughnuts stink of fear...

user55340

On job security in the gaming industry: Graveyard

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT ugh... the discompassion churns my stomach. I honestly don't know how people do those jobs (the lady bringing the donuts, not the testers, those poor souls), I just hope they make sure only to hire people who don't need a job ahead of time, even though I'm sure they don't do that. Blech, I'd quit before doing such a job.

"I get paid to ruin peoples ... well, however long it takes them to find new work. I do it for money ladies and gentalmen." Pfleh, I'd rather be homeless than a shitty person.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa read the other tales... they're real people being hired... they need jobs. They just happen to be in QA and looked down upon. The game industry has them on contracts and dumps them at the end of (or before!) the product is ready.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa yes but you've got principles and morals and ideals.

user20683

I know people who have none of those things

user55340

2:32 AM

An Employee with an Expiration Date

user55340

Part of it also is that so many people want into the gaming industry that... well... they can be treated like crap and still have people wanting it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I know, they do the same to the devs, the game industry is great: Companies make more money than..well...everything short of hedge fuck scamanagers...wait, that was a freudian uh thingie... and they do it all by - ruining the health of people who are unfortunately willing (it's ok to hurt people who volunteer right? the medical research industry should take note of these ethical standards, they'd probably cure cancer after depopulating Wyoming). And they top it off by firing everyone.

@WorldEngineer I try very hard not to know such people, and when I do I just imagine they have them because the alternative is like learning Santa Clause isn't real, but the Boogey man is. I don't like that reality.

...brb checking my closet for...nevermind.

@MichaelT protecting people from themselves is generally a shitty thing to attempt in many many cases, yet few would dispute we really are right in having laws against even voluntary slavery. Evil corporations and their jobs are not something we can or should protect people from volunteering to be subjugated by, but I still hate that such things happen to unfortunate folk.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa They're not all that way... there are a number of game studios that are quite humane in their treatment of devs and testers. Its just the big ones... where they get thousands of applications for every QA position and know they can fire the entire team today and have another one tomorrow... that does strange things to a manager's mind and concept of balance sheets.

user55340

And its not like they don't know that they started the day after the previous team got fired... or if they don't, its like not knowing that the hamburger you're eating is a dead cow... I mean... its practically written on the label.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Zookeeping is a strange example of such; zoos routinely demand their employees practice terribly unsafe things with wild animals while not paying for the necessary safety equipment and requiring their employees to skip safety precautions/procedures for time et al. Not in a "you dont' really need it fashion" either, but in a "Zoos don't have those 'We haven't had an accident in __ days'" signs like factories do for a reason...

user55340

2:44 AM

@JimmyHoffa the 0 sign has blood on it? (actually, two accident prone interns I worked with did that... and yes, the 0 did have blood on it... nasty paper cut)

Jimmy Hoffa

and the benefits: All for the low low price of a BS in some Biology subdegree from a prestigious school you can make 15/hr! Because everyone wants to be a zookeeper, so if you don't want to deal with the work fuck you.

I wonder if OSHA ever wasn't just a joke

durron597

4:25 AM

/me is in the top cv reviewers all time. woohoooo

Duga

8:38 AM

since this is a conceptual question it seems more appropriate for programmers.stackexchange.com — Gerald Schneider 42 secs ago

Duga

10:29 AM

Please consider moving this question to this exchange: programmers.stackexchange.com — hiergiltdiestfu 25 secs ago

Eh? How is this question on topic on Programmers @hiergiltdiestfu? It would be downvoted and closed almost immediately if it was posted there. — Yannis 12 secs ago

TZHX

10:56 AM

@Duga Is that question spam? The domain name linked to certainly looks like the spammy type.

André

11:35 AM

These tales of the trenches are scary ones.

Telastyn

1:24 PM

yeh, gamedev isn't the most mature industry everywhere.

ratchet freak

@Telastyn s/everywhere/anywhere/

user55340

1:38 PM

It's mature... Just very different priorities. Every line of code you write will be thrown away in a year or so after release of the software. So, would you write good code for that? Or code that compiles and gets out if the door?

Thomas Owens

I wouldn't last in gamedev.

user55340

Remember also, there are thousands of coders who would take your job in a heartbeat for half the pay.

André

It's a very different "game", here there is a lack of developers, so you're valued as long you play nice

Telastyn

I dunno, I have to imagine that EA and even places like Blizzard have to be mature in their processes these days.

though the different priorities and heartless exploitation of an abundant workforce is still there.

user55340

(Whee! Update for eclipse approved and installed... Goodbye 2010! ... Hello 2014!)

Thomas Owens

1:52 PM

Hm?

ratchet freak

@Telastyn exploit the drones as much and when they burn out bring in the next guy

André

@MichaelT, welcome to the future I guess

Telastyn

aw yeah, short-timer

doing even less work than usual.

user55340

Crap... svn very not happy.

user55340

2:07 PM

... There we go. Not unhappy... For svn, that is saying a lot.

Ampt

2:23 PM

When the project you're 3 months behind on gets cancelled:

Doin the Carlton

wooooo procrastination!

enderland

...

Ampt

"We've decided to allocate our resources on other efforts, blah blah blah"

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Why did you make the GIF go away?

Ampt

@ThomasOwens Well most of us have this up on the second monitor - hate for someone to think that we're not immaculate professionals haha

ratchet freak

@Ampt submit it to devopsreactions

Ampt

2:28 PM

You can edit it to put it back if you want :)

Thomas Owens

Have I ever linked to Life of a Software Engineer here?

lifeofasoftwareengineer.tumblr.com

MetaFight

if that's furry porn...

Thomas Owens

o_o

MetaFight

tumblr, I hear, is 80% furry porn.

Thomas Owens

It's not. It's GIFs about software development.

My friend runs it.

MetaFight

2:30 PM

I'll let someone else click on that link first.

Thomas Owens

It's SFW. I promise.

durron597

Ampt

@MetaFight 80% of the internet is porn. By that logic you ought to just stop clicking on links, period.

enderland

@durron597 lol was going to paste that myself

MetaFight

@Ampt it's not vanilla porn that I'm against.

Thomas Owens

2:33 PM

A friend of mine is presenting at BUILD.

Ampt

@MetaFight I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that of that 80%, it's probably not all vanilla hahaha

MetaFight

@Ampt good point.

Telastyn

32 flavors and then some.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens that tumblr is pretty hilarious.

André

I agree with @Ampt

Telastyn

2:42 PM

bleh, headhunters. One thing I dislike about this area is the lack of actual real companies hiring people.

directly

MetaFight

@Telastyn it's the same in the UK. Headhunters and recruiters are the worst.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn not an area thing, it's industry wide

MetaFight

I'll be making my return to contracting soon-ish. I'm not looking forward to dealing with those duplicitous assholes.

Telastyn

enh, when I was out in the valley it wasn't as absolute as it was here.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn what year was that though?

Telastyn

2:45 PM

2005ish?

well, I suppose earlier, since that's when I left

not when I was looking

user55340

@Telastyn lots of contract shops. I'm familiar with intertech.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT they're not as bad as interchode

user55340

intertech.com

MetaFight

hypermegaglobalnet.biz

Jimmy Hoffa

did they almost take office space's company name on purpose?

user55340

2:48 PM

A $$$$ contract shop that Emplyer^^ got lots of hours from.

MetaFight

sorry, what I meant was:

simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net

user55340

I wouldn't be surprised.

user55340

Btw, out of close votes again.

user55340

Holy angry fruit salad Batman! Eclipse dark theme is... Colorful.

user55340

I count nine colors in three lines of code.

Ampt

2:57 PM

@MichaelT It's the theme Eclipse deserves, just not the one it needs right now.

also, what are you doing in eclipse?! TRAITOR!!!!!

I'm telling JetBrains!

ratchet freak

@MichaelT at least it's customizable

Robert Harvey

@RobertHarvey ok, I was thinking that put EDIT is a good pratice. — Johnny Willer 2 hours ago

What?

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey On forums, it's usually expected that you denote edits to your post.

Robert Harvey

You mean they actually have rules there?

Thomas Owens

At least, for when you are adding content. Removing content is usually done by strikethrough. Stack Exchange is unique in that perspective that you actually add or remove content and maintain a cohesive post.

Rules? More like conventions. It's how I've usually seen it done on forums that allow editing.

Robert Harvey

3:08 PM

@MichaelT I was never much of a fan of the dark themes. Everything, including your browser, has to be dark, or it doesn't work.

Thomas Owens

I like white themes, personally. I don't understand the darkness.

Robert Harvey

I might try to get used to one if I understood the colors, but the colors make no sense in dark themes.

ratchet freak

@RobertHarvey and not a lot of applications have a dark theme

Robert Harvey

That's what I mean. You get "flashed" every time you switch applications.

Telastyn

I used to like dark themes, less light into the eyeballs over a long day meant less fatigue.

enderland

3:13 PM

My biggest complaint with Office 2013 is actually the lack of a dark theme

ratchet freak

@RobertHarvey say cheese alt+tab

@enderland doesn't that base itself after the theme colors?

enderland

@ratchetfreak its "dark grey" is still really light

user55340

3:26 PM

@Ampt the hoops to install software on my machine... Ghads. No.

user55340

@RobertHarvey IntelliJ has one that works nicely.

Robert Harvey

IoC Containers: Prozac for Software Architectures

Telastyn

duh.

Robert Harvey

Duh? Not according to many people.

Though I think people are finally realizing you can go too far with them.

Telastyn

yes, well it should be well established by now what I think about people.

durron597

3:34 PM

598

Q: Why do I need an IoC container as opposed to straightforward DI code?

I've been using Dependency Injection (DI) for a while, injecting either in a constructor, property, or method. I've never felt a need to use an Inversion of Control (IoC) container. However, the more I read, the more pressure I feel from the community to use an IoC container. I played with .NE...

dependency-injection inversion-of-control ioc-container

André

how far is too far?

Robert Harvey

@durron597 Yeah, I've seen that piece. I find Ben Scheirman's argument utterly unconvincing.

@André I think the Prozac article articulates that pretty well.

ratchet freak

@André injecting basic empty containers into your classes

Robert Harvey

@ratchetfreak Would that be a consequence of using containers? That you can no longer use default constructors?

Telastyn

saying "this code is simpler" is ignoring all of the practical aspects of working with IoC containers.

user55340

3:41 PM

Btw, manager 100% buy in with automated testing. (This is good)

durron597

@MichaelT You weren't doing automated testing before?

user55340

Reasonable expectations and timelines too.

user55340

I was, but it's not part of failing a build in Hudson. And most devs were completely ignoring it.

Robert Harvey

@Telastyn It's not simpler anyway. You still have to configure the container, so you're just pushing the complexity somewhere else, and you've introduced a new language to do it.

André

it's all nice and dandy when it's working, but it is difficult to debug, the container

Telastyn

3:45 PM

well, arguably the container is reused... yeah, that's setup for that service specifically.

Bleh. That's totally worse.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 many many places don't do automated testing.

Telastyn

automated testing outside of unit tests tends to be not great.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn and many places don't even do that

I wonder what the median age for software companies is, I suspect it's well above the modern "everyone should do automated testing" age of the last decade or so. Not that automated testing isn't as old as software itself, it was just not an expected de facto standard practice until somewhere between 2000-2005 I think?

user55340

@Telastyn in copious free time, working on showing automated testing with jetty, hsql, and selenium.

Robert Harvey

Isn't automated testing part of the Continuous Integration process?

Those tools have matured dramatically over the last few years.

@MichaelT UI testing, bleh.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:48 PM

@RobertHarvey only if your developers are given the time in their schedules to write said tests.

user55340

@RobertHarvey yes, though you have to write the tests and have it as part of the build. Otherwise it is Continued Building.

Telastyn

shrug in my experience, you spend too much time fixing/debugging the test than finding/fixing bugs. They're too fragile and don't inspire confidence that stuff isn't fucked.

Robert Harvey

So you write things that are unit testable as much as possible, and rely on your unit tests, instead of things like Selenium.

user55340

@Telastyn nope - rest endpoint.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn that's the mantra where I work, ergo, no tests. I would like to have them but alas, we don't. Same at Employer^

Here they believe in comments and logging over tests...

enderland

3:50 PM

@Telastyn it's really hard to write a good test

and people like to write really really complicated/long tests which are not really straightforward

partially because people's code is equally not concise...

Robert Harvey

You know what the TDD'ers would say about that.

André

what?

Robert Harvey

They would say to write testable code, and the best way to do that is to write the tests first.

Telastyn

@RobertHarvey - yeah. Unit test the meat. If the fluffy bits are broken, you usually need a human to tell that anyways.

Robert Harvey

I count UI as fluffy. UI tests are terribly brittle. But that's why you push as much logic as you can away from the UI into its own modules.

user55340

3:54 PM

Honestly, here, the 30 min or so I've spent writing unit tests have saved me at least four hours of debugging.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT when they're written here, as soon as they break other people just delete them.

Robert Harvey

I'm a huge fan of unit tests. AFAIK, of our small engineering group at Employer^, I was the only one that used them extensively.

Telastyn

yeah, hence my distinction between unit tests and other automated tests.

Jimmy Hoffa

unit tests are nice, but so few people really like to design things in a testable fashion, having multiple layers of abstraction for things like that are often called "over-engineering" by many in my experience

Robert Harvey

There are apparently code wizards out there who can write reams of perfectly good, well-written code that works right the first time, and so they never feel the need for unit tests. I'm not one of those people.

Telastyn

3:56 PM

@JimmyHoffa - yes, and those people are wrong and bad.

Jimmy Hoffa

thus integration tests end up preferred, then people bemoan the fact that unit tests are fragile because the database has to be in the perfect state...blablabla...

@Telastyn and legion.

ratchet freak

@RobertHarvey I feel like I am one of them, it doesn't always work out that well...

Telastyn

and no amount of integration tests/ui tests/anything tests is going to cover up the smell of that poop.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn but if you write enough logging everywhere and comments everywhere you'll easily find out when something's wrong!

...ugh...

Telastyn

ugh, it's going to take so much work to find a place that is not that sort of shitshow.

but for now, food.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:59 PM

@Telastyn yeah...which is why I just try to forget about it, looking is so painful and knowing no matter what you're more than likely going to end up at one of those places just makes it worse...

Ampt

@MichaelT wait, you don't use intellij on your work machine?

are you insane?!

durron597

@Ampt He programs in notepad, you didn't know?

2

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt any luck on the doing-something-technical front?

Robert Harvey

@durron597 That's pretty much what every employer expects you to do now on job interviews, so.

Does a Node clone for .NET make any sense?

user55340

@Ampt I would if I could, but alas, they freak out with installing notepad++. You want me to install a Russian ide on a government machine?

Ampt

4:10 PM

@MichaelT well, in that case, how's the job search going? hahaha

@JimmyHoffa yeah, they want to keep me on the account but move me to a dev team

maybe in a "managing offshore resources" roll... which sounds not-so-fun

so I'm actively looking for other projects

and trying to find a back fill for me

user55340

@JimmyHoffa thus the importance of manager 100% buy in.

user55340

@Ampt heh. I had a security check to interview and fingerprinted on day 1 - I expected this.

durron597

@MichaelT Is JUnit an approved library?

Ampt

oooooh that's right, you work for the DoC... I thought you worked at a uni

I was like man... that's some strict stuff just to keep the damn kids laptops running

Duga

opinionated, not the right place. Try asking on programmers.stackexchange.com and you shouldn't get pummeled by downvotes — awwester 46 secs ago

durron597

4:14 PM

Calling all trogdors

user55340

@durron597 yep. TestNG also within a month.

durron597

@MichaelT Why would you need both?

user55340

Migrating to testng as it does more for integration testing.

user55340

One of our vendors uses it.

ElaGorilaki

4:44 PM

hi everyone

user55340

'Ello

André

hello

enderland

Hi

Duga

You might have better luck asking a "How can I improve this code" or some such question over at programmers.stackexchange.com concerning "conceptual questions about software development". I'm pretty sure they will help with design and may have tips on how to improve your code. I wish you well — Micky Duncan 21 secs ago

André

> I really don’t understand why some programmers insist on hiding their bad designs from their own view. It’s like they don’t want to know that things are becoming a mess.

Ampt

4:57 PM

If QA doesn't catch it, it's not a bad design, right?

André

If you don't have to deal with it too!

Robert Harvey

@gwag: Ohh, I feel a pedantry nightmare coming on. Just fix it, Spock. — Robert Harvey 7 mins ago

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