English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-10-09

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Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:11 AM

hey @nohat I just wanted to say that no matter what the powers-that-be may be thinking, I think I speak for all the normal users of this site when I say that if you leave, this place will be worse off. Your answers are always delightful to read in just about every way.

2

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thanks, that helps!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Starred!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Actually I've been wondering why I never see good nohat answers that are first or second-posted and which make everyone else look bad.

I don't want to be as sad as with Kosmonaut's leaving all over again. In fact I'm still not over him.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I have to run but I hope to see you around still in the future :)

1:13 AM

Bai!

Wow, @nohat, say it ain't so.

@Robusto say what ain't so?

I just heard a rumor that you're leaving.

Or thinking about it.

I mean, come on. Even though you may feel unappreciated around here, the opposite is true.

3

Apr 5 at 1:13, by Robusto

I saw one of @nohat's answers where he f***ing nailed it, had charts and everything and a well-written, well-reasoned answer, and it got like two votes.

Well, I just dropped in to say I hope you don't go. I don't come into this chat very often, so I don't get the news except by relay. Good luck with whatever you do.

@nohat ^

1:29 AM

Thanks, I'm not leaving yet

I appreciate your appreciation

Woohoo!

Yeah, what Rob says.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah, what Cerberus says.

What Reg says.

1:58 AM

go vote for my awesome question for Grammar Girl

0

A: What are we going to ask Grammar Girl?

A lot of your columns and articles cite various authorities, like Garner's Modern American Usage, American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style, and (thankfully) Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage. For example, in your article about the word class of than, you explain the pre...

@nohat That is an awesome question. Duly upvoted (though I do want mine asked too).

Gah. It's 3 a.m. Why am I online?

No it's 4 am.

@Cerberus If I hadn't turned off the radio, it would be telling me it was 2 a.m. That's because Radio 4 shuts down for the night and hands over to the World Service, which operates on GMT.

@nohat Upvoted. Though I disagree with some of your premises (what else would you expect of me), I think it is an excellent question about something that should be of central importance to her site.

@Cerberus Please do add your disagreements to the comments

2:05 AM

@TRiG Oh... but then how can we have a two-hours difference?

sound-sex

@nohat Well, I'm not sure they would be relevant. I just don't think prescriptive grammar is useless, that's all.

@TRiG Ah, I know that one!

@Cerberus Stephen Fry was once mentioned on Radio 4 in a list of gods.

@TRiG Haha, as in, Zeus, Horus, Fry, Jahwe?

2:08 AM

@Cerberus We're still operating on Summer time here. It means that when Radio 4 switches off at 1 a.m., the next thing you hear is the World Service midnight news.

@Cerberus Yes. Exactly. It was a rant on the Now Show.

Nice.

@TRiG But... we're on summer time too?

@Cerberus Where?

Holland.

I can never remember when it changes exactly, but it hasn't happened yet, or I'd have noticed, wouldn't I?

@Cerberus You're on Central European Time, so? Should be just one hour's difference. Something's confused somewhere.

On the only vaguely related topic of apologies, I've just written a treatise on apologies

nohat.net/2011/what-constitutes-an-apology

2:12 AM

Well, it's not just the computer clock. Two other clocks n the house also say 3:13 (ish).

Well, you and I are only one hour apart (it's 4.11 here); I just don't get that you say GMT is even earlier than you now!

@nohat Oh lemme see.

It's kind of a rough draft. I plan to reorganize and expand it when I get a chance

@nohat 'Tis good. The proofreader in me (which I can't switch off), notes one missing space.

@TRiG where? I will fix it!

@nohat When you get the full thing up, let me know and I'll add it to my links blog.

@nohat The Economistwrote

2:16 AM

@TRiG If I revise it substantially, I will probably make a new post, so feel free to link to it now.

@TRiG fixed

@nohat I shall do soon. I have a links blog, it's just links to things I find interesting in other places. I call it "TRiG's Links: Reading the Internet"

@Cerberus Paul Sinha: [on Iris Robinson saying, "It is the government's responsibility to uphold God's law."] Oh, no, it isn't. It is the government's duty to uphold UK law. There are many things which make this country great like Ikea, chicken tikka masala, and Kevin Pietersen, and one of them is that we live in a secular democracy; we have complete freedom of worship here whether your deity is God, Allah, Buddha, Yoda, or Stephen Fry.

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Now_Show

Aww. No onebox for Wikiquote.

@nohat Excellent. I noticed you forgot a preposition in Sheen, point three: points the finger the people.

@TRiG Haha, very nice.

@Cerberus well, it's RLG's mistake, not mine, but I've fixed it anyway, thanks

@Cerberus It got a good laugh.

@Nohat: Are you sure that it is absolutely necessary to express contrition explicitly? Doesn't contrition often follow from admission of fault + promise of improvement?

@nohat Oh, right.

2:23 AM

@Cerberus Without contrition is it, really, an apology at all?

I suppose it isn't, not always.

Then again...

I am definitely willing to reconsider my claims about apologies, but you'd have to give an example of a contritionless apology

@nohat I rather meant an apology where contrition is not made explicit, because it follows from admitting that you're at fault? Can one admit a fault but not regret it?

I shouldn't have taken your purse, and I will never do it again.

The contrition seems to be more or less implied in the admission that you were at fault.

@Cerberus I think it's marginal. It's not clear that the apologizer understands why she shouldn't have taken the purse

But isn't it enough that he knows it was wrong?

2:28 AM

@Cerberus it kind of reminds me of a dog who "knows" he's not supposed to knock over the trash

@Cerberus It doesn't sound quite genuine to me. But it's silly time, so what do I know? Need sleep.

Perhaps I would say, if you do not seem to repent what you did, you're not admitting you were at fault.

Don't people apologise just to dampen the guilt they feel about their perfect lives?

Oh, sure.

2:29 AM

@Cerberus apologies are to repair relationships

@nohat Yeah, OK. But I'd rather say that some elaboration is usually necessary to show that you are sincere. Perhaps that is the same as contrition?

@Cerberus Right I guess I'm not saying that my requirements are some kind of independent fundamental truths about apologies, just that there exists fundamental truths about what a true full apology is, and I have attempted to capture it with my requirements.

"being truly sorry" encompasses both acknowledgement of guilt as well as regret

@nohat OK fair enough. Your examples are strong enough anyway.

and you have to express both

if one can be inferred from the other, than you have met the requirements but people have different standards of entailment

OK.

Yeah implication would seem to play an important part in many apologies.

One party says x was implied, the other denies it.

Or the fact that it was merely implied but not made explicit makes it seem insincere.

2:38 AM

Yeah, sincerity is tough to prove :-)

I didn't say this in my post, but if someone says all the right words but clearly doesn't mean them, then that doesn't count either, does it?

Exactly.

Then again, I think there is one more layer:

Even if you don't mean it, and the other person knows that, it can still be acceptable.

Because social norms are confirmed and one can be held to the promise not to do it again.

But then you might say it is still not a true apology, just something similar but different that is nevertheless acceptable.

That's also why sometimes an apology or pseudo-apology is only accepted if made in public.

It is interesting to think about the relationship of social norms and mental states

If, for instance, Jef were to say, "I shouldn't have said all that, and I will not interfere with you people again, please Kosmonaut come back", it might induce Kos to come back, even if he didn't believe it was truly sincere.

I don't think many people believe public apologies by politicians, but they're still good enough.

@Cerberus Like the recent "cattergate" in the UK?

@TRiG Hmm I think I missed that?

2:53 AM

@Cerberus There was some silly spat between two Tory politicians. One of them was later forced to apologise. He very obviously didn't mean it.

Haha.

Yeah, like that.

But it's the government policy now that the party has to "present a united front" or some such silly notion, so all disagreements have to be in private.

And what counts as a disagreement?

Really any disagreement, or the unpleasant ones?

I should think that a healthy dispute was essential to parliamentary debate?

What else is there to be done in the Houses?

After all, parliament comes from parler...

@Cerberus I don't know whether you've been following this, but there are some moves in the UK to get rid of the Human Rights Act, the UK domestic law which parallels the European Convention on Human Rights. Theresa May was giving a speech (not in Parliament, but to some group elsewhere), where she told a story of a student from Bolivia, an illegal immigrant, who was allowed to stay in the UK under the Human Rights Act because he had a pet cat.

Ken Clarke, the Justice Secretary, who supports keeping the Human Rights Act, said that this was stuff and nonsense, and basically accused her of lying. He was later forced to apologise, even though he was basically right.

The student in question was allowed to stay under the right to a family life, because he'd formed a long-term relationship. The fact that he and his partner shared a pet cat was mentioned in court, and in the judgement from the bench, as evidence of this long-term relationship, so Ms May wasn't making things up out of thin air, but she was exaggerating to an extent which could be called lying.

news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/clarke-regrets-cat-spat-language/…

And now it really really is well past my bedtime.

3:18 AM

@TRiG Ah, I see!

That sounds rather ridiculous indeed.

@TRiG Mine too, good night!

7 hours later…

user19161

10:12 AM

Hi @bracho, haven't seen you for a while.

user19161

@TRiG Try reversing the clock.

11:45 AM

Hi everyone

Could someone review my question? I'm not sure about its grammar because it was one of the hardest questions I wrote.

0

Q: Would guys from the Red Dwarf respawn if time-traveling-fat-guys kill them?

I was wondering, would the Red Dwarf guys respawn in case that (1) is the group that are in present (2) is the group that are traveling in past to visit (1) (1) They're in year 8 000 000 for example (2) They're in year 8 000 015 for example (2) comes back to the past to kill (1) (2) kills (1)...

time-travel paradox red-dwarf

user19161

12:16 PM

@genesisφ Hi. Let me take a look first.

@JasperLoy thanks

user19161

@genesisφ You might want to add the article "the" before "present" and "past", delete "I was wondering" and delete "that" after "in case". Also, what is "time-traveling-themselves"? Is it a word that appears in the book?

@JasperLoy No. Jasper Loy lives in 2015 and its 2011 now. Your future body will come and kill you

user19161

@genesis And if (1) and (2) refer to groups, then your fourth and fifth points don't make sense. Are you referring to the groups being in the years?

user19161

@genesisφ I really wish I can fast-forward time too, since I have three wishes to try make happen.

12:24 PM

@JasperLoy yeah, one group being in 8 000 000 and second one being in 8 000 015

@JasperLoy What doesn't make sense on it?

user19161

@genesisφ OK, then you should write (1) is in year ... (2) is in year... instead. And if you are seeing the group as one entity, you should use "is" instead of "are" evreywhere for the group.

@JasperLoy I do not use "are" anywhere

user19161

@genesisφ You used them in your first to fourth points.

@JasperLoy ah

So it's probably fixed

Thanks for correction

user19161

@genesisφ "It's", not to be confused with "its".

12:28 PM

@JasperLoy ah yeah. That's probably effect of these l33t 5p34k3rs & their "u", "ur", "y u", "its", "were"

user19161

@genesisφ I mean that if "time-traveling-themselves" is not a word in the book you should not use it since this is non-standard. "Time-traveling" as a word is fine though.

So "Would guys from the Red Dwarf respawn if time-traveling kill them?" is fine?

user19161

@genesisφ It is fine if that is what you mean, but I don't read the book so only you would know what you really mean. And you should use "kills" instead.

@JasperLoy It's not about a book

user19161

@genesisφ I thought it is science fiction?

12:32 PM

@JasperLoy but in that case that "time-traveling" should be only one?

@JasperLoy yes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dwarf

user19161

@genesisφ You say "traveling is fun", not "traveling" are fun.

@JasperLoy But I mean "Would guys from the Red Dwarf respawn if time-traveling guys kill them?"

user19161

@genesisφ You mean they kill themselves in another time?

YES!

Wasn't it clear before?

user19161

@genesisφ OK let me think. So is "time-traveling-themselves" a word you made up yourself?

12:37 PM

yes

@JasperLoy So what would be the correct one?

user19161

@genesisφ Then that word is not clear. You should rephrase the question. Let me check. The future kills the past is that right?

@JasperLoy no. reverse()

Your future body kills yourself now

user19161

@genesisφ No, you are pretty smart. I'm the fool here.

Good one. I'm really dumb

@JasperLoy I'm not talking about meaning, but about English. I just wrote it wrong

user19161

@genesisφ Oh I was not talking about English but something else, never mind! And it's weird how my message appears before yours when it's posted after.

12:45 PM

@JasperLoy yes, I was also looking on that.

@JasperLoy But I'm speaking that I'm dumb in (or at?) English

user19161

@genesisφ And you forgot "the" in your first point again.

user19161

@genesisφ I was talking about how I think you will be a great programmer.

@JasperLoy Thanks :)

@JasperLoy and thanks. I hate articles

user19161

@genesisφ I hate newspaper articles. I almost never read the news do you know?

@JasperLoy I mean "the", "a", articles

@JasperLoy Now I do

user19161

12:48 PM

@genesisφ I know. I was doing a pun.

@JasperLoy ah

user19161

@genesisφ Maybe you should use "traveling to the past" instead of "traveling in the past" in your second point.

They're traveling to the present, not to the past. But thanks

user19161

@genesisφ I wish my future body will come and take me to the future now.

user19161

-1

Q: What's the difference between 'knee' and 'lap'?

Are there any differences between knee and lap? When to use which? Thanks,

word-choice differences nouns

user19161

12:58 PM

GR.

@JasperLoy heh

user19161

@genesisφ I am not in a good mood so I downvote questions quite readily nowadays.

user19161

@genesisφ I approved your edit to give you two points.

@JasperLoy I do not rush for point on English.SE, I just don't like it. Thanks though

user19161

@genesisφ Bye. Have a good weekend.

1:09 PM

@JasperLoy Bye. Have a good weekend, too

7 hours later…

user19161

7:49 PM

0

Q: meaning of the words formal and informal and their usage

Respected Fellows! I have looked at the word formal in the dictionary,I found formal meanings as customs or conventional. now if we keep in mind these meanings then we can understand formal dress, formal dance etc but i have problems in understanding formal occasion and the sentences like this o...

meaning word-usage

user19161

NARQ.

8:24 PM

@JasperLoy ?

user19161

9:11 PM

@TRiG not a real question

user19161

That is one of the options for voting to close if you have at least 3000.

@JasperLoy Ah. That makes sense.

user19161

@TRiG Of course, everything I say makes sense, don't you know? Though you may not realise that until 50 years later.

@JasperLoy Oh of course, but I didn't realise which sense it made.

user19161

@TRiG That makes very good sense.

9:15 PM

@JasperLoy I'm good at that, even if it's difficult to type while eating pears.

user19161

It's usually quiet in chat on the weekends, last night was an exception.

@JasperLoy It was somewhat anarchic, wasn't it?

user19161

@TRiG Well, incomprehensibility is what makes this room special. You may think you understand what another is saying, but maybe you really don't.

@JasperLoy If I want incomprehensibility, I have only to step over into Christianity SE.

user19161

@TRiG Seems that they discuss only religion there? Here we have all sorts of topics. It is the aggregate of all knowledge and wisdom in the world.

9:20 PM

@JasperLoy It's not just religion (though that's the incomprehensible part). Stepping into chat there, and getting to know some of the mods as people, did calm me down from some ridiculous moderation which still puts my teeth on edge when I think about it.

10

A: What are we going to ask Grammar Girl?

On a note somewhat related to the question about gyrl, how about, What do you think of gender-neutral pronouns? I am used to areas where they are used commonly, even of and by cissexual people whose gender is unambiguous. And I have used them in that light here at Stack Exchange, as, for example,...

user19161

@TRiG Why did your question get minus seven? It seems interesting.

@JasperLoy Because of this shit-storm.

8

Q: Should we allow or avoid non-standard pronouns?

This question brings up an important question: Do we want to allow or avoid the use of non-standard English such as the words zie and zir as non gender specific pronouns on this site?

user19161

I mean they can close it but they should not downvote.

-5

A: Should we allow or avoid non-standard pronouns?

I think that calling these pronouns "made up" is (a) phrasing the question in a leading manner, and (b) completely irrelevant. Many "made up" words are now a natural part of the language. The word robot was invented by a science-fiction writer (and a Czech one, at that); the word lasar is complet...

Seriously, that was the entire controversy.

I used the same pronouns on SO a good deal earlier, and on Programmers, and no one even noticed.

6

Q: Using OpenID to log into multiple domains: Is this plan feasable?

For example: We're running a two community sites on two domains (call them example.com and example.net). We want to be able to expand that to more domains later. We want to allow multiple types of login (OpenID, Facebook, Twitter, standard username/password). We want someone who's logged into o...

openid cross-domain openid-provider

user19161

@TRiG Oh now I see. Well, I am not an expert in any of the matters surrounding this. But it is weird to use nonstandard language.

user19161

9:25 PM

Having said that I am weird myself but I don't use nonstandard language.

@JasperLoy My entire point is that, for me, it's perfectly normal language. It's part of my idiolect.

As in, I wasn't using those words to make a point. But now they're there, I will keep them in to make a point.

user19161

I think chat is quiet on the weekends because people's real lives begin then, and they come here only during the weekdays while skiving from work.

user19161

6

Q: Chat hangs while loading

Visiting http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/95/english-language-and-usage hangs at Loading English Language and Usage, Just a second…. This has occurred at least three times in the last few weeks, with the current one lasting a few days already except for one brief intermission. The problem seem...

user19161

Do you have this problem? I had it 4 times already.

user19161

The previous one was a day or two ago and lasted for a day or two.

9:31 PM

@JasperLoy It's behaving fine for me.

user19161

@TRiG I see. Well, weird things always happen to me only.

@JasperLoy Heisenbug?

user19161

Unusual software bug

Unusual software bugs are a class of software bugs that are considered exceptionally difficult to understand and repair. There are several kinds, mostly named after scientists who discovered counterintuitive things. Bohrbug A bohrbug (named after the Bohr atom model) is a bug that manifests itself consistently under a well-defined (but possibly unknown) set of conditions. Thus, in contrast with heisenbugs, a bohrbug does not disappear or alter its characteristics when it is researched. These include the easiest bugs to fix (where the nature of the problem is obvious), but also bugs that...

user19161

Ah I googled and found it here.

user19161

I thought you just invented the word.

9:34 PM

@JasperLoy I think it was coined on SO.

Okay. Perhaps not.

user19161

@TRiG The worst virus I ever got was one which I thought was eliminated and then half an hour later said "I am only a virus, please do not kill me", after which I reinstalled XP.

@JasperLoy Awww, poor wee virus.

user19161

@dr65 Do you get this when I ping you?

user19161

@trig I noticed you have a lot of SE accounts, and you called yourself a weirdo I just realised.

@JasperLoy I quite likely called myself a wierdo. It's the sort of thing I'd do. Where did you notice it?

For some reason, I'm currently discussing Irish grammar on Christianity chat.

user19161

9:41 PM

@TRiG Your SO account.

user19161

@TRiG weirdo

user19161

@drm65 Do you get this when I ping you?

user19161

@TRiG I wonder whether people really have a reason in mind when they say "for some reason".

@JasperLoy Rarely, I'd guess.

9:58 PM

@JasperLoy Yes; why?

Don't you believe what I say in the About Me section of my profile?

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