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user41796
9:01 PM
I hate going to a question to drop a VTC and then remembering that I'm out of close votes.
 
user41796
If only I had a sock puppet to buy me an additional 24 votes....
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Just reading the second one here I'm reminded of a little known tidbit I learned from my wife - she was a zookeeper, usually you must have at least a BS in biology or similarly advanced biological sciences sect (her's is animal sciences from Purdue) - and often times a MS or more is required/competed with. The job of a zookeeper is coveted to the point that: On average these highly educated people are paid in the $10-$13/hr range, working long hours doing physically demanding work
and the kicker: Zoo's skimp on safety measures because nobody will call them out on it - the jobs are so highly sought after nobody's willing to bitch about their employer publically.
 
user15026
And when they do, it gets messy (I just read a pile of articles relating to the sanctuary that cared for Koko the gorilla)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@AshleyNunn she has more than a few scars from animals because the zoo's weren't willing to pay for appropriate facilities...
 
user41796
Scars are cool. They tell stories.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:06 PM
It's a hard situation though - Zoo's are all working largely off donations/foundations/etc, they're not huge profit farms and they have small operating budgets to begin with
 
user15026
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, its a very complex thing :(
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT bookmarking this guys blog very smart analysis in the second one there, haven't read the other...surprised I never bumped into this dude's blog before
> I feel the problem for companies desperate to hire these guys and girls, is that the real multi-skilled developers are often lost in a sea of douchebags, claiming they know it all.
...hahaha
@MichaelT between those and the links I opened from the first one - I should have enough reading to keep my Friday afternoon going
 
user55340
9:23 PM
I'm still stoked that Qi (of the Codeless Code) is going to make us a community advert.
 
user15026
That is still pretty excellent
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT the really new thing I'm seeing in the article there and one linked from it that I've started seeing crop up that is not gaining the note it should be: People are making drastically different comparisons between the landscape now and only 4-5 years ago... that seems pretty new, the landscape for devs has historically always had comparisons of 10-20 years to illustrate authors points of how big the differences are, to see people reaching such a short period back now is creepy
May be total hornswoggle, but it strikes me as possibly being an indicator because it does appear to be more consistent recently
 
user55340
It would suggest we're in another renaissance of sorts for technology...
 
durron597
durron597
@JimmyHoffa Have you seen Sneakers?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@durron597 I prefer Etnies
 
durron597
durron597
9:35 PM
Hyuk hyuk
It's a reality / perception of reality thing
both programmers and businesses don't actually think that top quality senior programmers should be earning 10x as much as junior people
even though they do produce 10x better work
programmers don't walk in asking for 500k
even though they deserve it, they often times don't actually know their real dollar value
and, often, neither do the business people
 
user15026
@durron597 Well, no, because it just isn't practical to do so
 
durron597
durron597
it takes a lot longer for salaries to adjust in a field with low barrier to entry (it's really easy to be a crappy programmer; it's not easy to be a crappy lawyer because you need a law degree and you need to pass the bar) and where everyone is salaried (notice that plumbers and electricians charge the moon)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Interesting cultural note: It is absolutely shameful to go around talking about your salary in american culture, in Japanese culture however it's completely common (so I've heard) - so employers have to mean it when they say "competitive salaries" because the citizenry know what salaries actually tend to be in a given market.
^-- this is hearsay
 
durron597
durron597
if every single programmer tomorrow suddenly became a freelance independent contractor
how fast do you think salaries would move appropriately?
both junior salaries down and senior salaries up
which is the third reasons salaries stay low - programming projects take a really long time to bear fruit. compare to how long it takes to install a new kitchen sink
or, instead of every programmer being a freelance independent contractor, imagine the team lead of every programming project were suddenly like a construction contractor
few companies have an inhouse construction team, even if they're large enough that they're hire a construction crews to build a new office building
 
psr
psr
@durron597 I think barrier to entry affects the supply of people for a position, but another factor is ability of people determining salaries to tell what they are getting for the money. Why pay 5X more for a 10X programmer if you're 100% unable to tell if the person you hire actually is a 10X programmer. 10X Sales people can get paid a lot because they can prove they are 10X as valuable.
 
durron597
durron597
9:45 PM
@psr I agree
 
psr
psr
@MichaelT Interesting articles. I'm tempted to found a Haskel startup to exploit outstanding programmers.
 
durron597
durron597
Also a CEO is close enough to a salesman that he can judge how good a salesman is
but a CEO has no idea how to personally judge the CTO he's interviewing
 
user55340
@psr People will take a pay cut to work with great people / great technology / make a difference.
 
psr
psr
@durron597 Microsoft had a big advantage for a while, because Bill could recognize 10X programmers and pay them more than anyone else would.
 
durron597
durron597
@psr so do Page and Brin
 
user55340
9:46 PM
Very large companies also have the advantage of lots of 'tiers' within an area...
 
durron597
durron597
anyway, it's 4:47 PM on a friday. Time to go find some booze
have a great weekend everyone
 
psr
psr
@durron597 They do seem to get good engineers.
 
user55340
When you only have 5 developers, its harder to justify paying one of them 2x or 3x (much less 10x)... when you have 5000 developers, its easier to say "these 10 have a job title of 'distinguished developer at large'" and pay them accordingly.
 
psr
psr
So, according to that article, I can best maximize my own salary by focusing on MUMPS, right?
 
user41796
10:08 PM
+1 for the title :D — Aybe 7 mins ago
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:20 PM
@psr but you already knew that, which is effectively part of the calculus that had you working in MUMPS after years in .NET. Isn't it fun when you're trying to be sarcastic, only to realize the sad truth of your words?
 
user55340
@psr people I worked with at Employer^^ were Progress programmers... they problem many of them had is they got trained in progress right out of college and haven't ever worked with another language since (can't put N years of Java on the resume) making it harder to get another job and thus depressing the pay.
 
Tim
Tim
11:29 PM
thanks, @MichaelT
 
psr
psr
11:42 PM
@MichaelT Yes. I've witnessed some serious games of salary chicken between small business owner who will never get another programmer who can maintain the application and a developer who will never be able to get another job.
 
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