TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:00

I will never understand the "Downvoters should explain themselves!" movement.

There've been multiple meta requests to implement system-wide mandatory comments for downvotes.

Miniman

@BESW Yeah, there isn't much point in a non-anonymous voting system

BESW

Doctor Who Doctor Who Does whatever a Doctor do Can he fly? Listen, ace He's the Lord of Time and Space But wait! His name's not Doctor Who

Tweeted by ghostwritingcow on September 17, 2014 at 8:33 PM in reply to ghostwritingcow

doppelgreener

@BESW haha, that ending

I'm about to post up this meta topic and I'd like some input:

Sorting out new-gm

There's probably multiple ways to slice the pie as far as categorising the tag's content can go. I've suggested one such method. Should I? Or should I not mention the way I'd slice it, so as to not prime anyone's mind to think about it a certain way?

BESW

You should suggest a method as an answer, not in the question.

doppelgreener

Mm. Problem is it's not necessarily a tagging solution...

i guess I'll post it as an answer anyway.

BESW

00:16

@doppelgreener Opinion-Man strikes again!

The Oracle

0

Q: What can/should we do about [new-gm]?

The new-gm tag was recently discussed in this meta topic: burninate new-gm tag The problem was identified thus: [new-gm] is not a meta tag, but it was predominantly used as one, describing the asker's skill level but not anything related to the question itself (i.e. these were questions any sort...

BESW

0

A: What can/should we do about [new-gm]?

Greener's categories need no new tags. Someone being new to a game and being totally clueless about part of that game. That's a meta tag. It should instead be part of the question's text. Burn the tag, no replacement. Someone looking to improve fundamental skills. We've got gm-techniques for th...

Zachiel

@Mourdos hahahahahaha well, most probably it isn't what I'd rule but the reasoning is correct.

Miniman

@BESW The 'spirit of SE' argument has come out

BESW

And I'm sending him to meta with that one.

Miniman

00:29

@BESW I asked this yesterday, but it's curiously relevant

BESW

@Miniman Yup, I'm linking him to it as reference material.

Zachiel

ttfn

BESW

[sigh] The only way he can get my downvote reversed before the querent modifies his criteria is by convincing me I'm wrong to have downvoted because I'm basing it on faulty understanding of the system.

Which is not the reason he originally gave for wanting to know why people downvoted: he wanted to know how he could improve his answer.

Miniman

@BESW Tbh I think it was more of a 'you can't downvote me for the reason I think you did' with an obligatory mention of the 'answer improvement' reasoning

BESW

Welp, he's wrong; I can downvote him for the reason he thinks I did. Although I didn't; I downvoted him for a subtly different reason he thinks I can't downvote him for.

Miniman

00:43

@BESW I certainly wasn't disagreeing with you.

trogdor

I think "you can't downvote me" isn't a great start to any conversation

when you could instead probably make a general plea in the comments for some helpful advice about how to change things so you are no longer downvoted

Miniman

@trogdor Well obviously no-one can downvote you, you're TROGDOR

trogdor

@Miniman can't is a strong word

shouldn't is not

at least right now, I have posted no questions.

and all the answers I have posted that I did not close/delete myself are correct, and completely usable.

Miniman

I was making a trogdor joke, but wow, you've never been downvoted

trogdor

were that to change though, my approach would not be "curse you idiots who downvoted me!!!"

I am very careful with what I post

that is the reason I have not been downvoted,.... and the reason my rep (which I care not for besides being able to speak in chat) has stayed at a steady 122

BESW

00:48

Literally the only reason Trogdor joined SE is so that he could join my chat conversations with you guys.

trogdor

and the reason I stayed is that this place is awesome

Miniman

And burninate?

trogdor

even when BESW isn't online atm

otherwise I probably would have ended up logging out of chat every time he wasn't around.

Adeptus

I've had one answer downvoted. I looked at it, and thought, "Yeah, you're right, it's not very good. And these other answers that were posted after mine, say everything I meant to say but better." So, I deleted it.

trogdor

but yeah, my original reason for joining was strictly to see what BESW was posting here, and add my own ideas

I do have a practically duplicate answer that I posted when I was still pretty new to the site

but BESW and Hobbs/greener educated me on what it's issues are

BESW

00:54

@Adeptus When you hit a certain critical threshold of answers--especially on popular tags--you'll start getting Random Downvotes Of Randomness. It's like noise in the system.

trogdor

I deleted it and the new info that I did add was grafted onto the better answer (with my permission and full support)

Miniman

@BESW Ayup.

trogdor

@BESW and this has not happened to me. specifically because I don't post in any way prolifically

which is partly because the only system I am/was really really good at answering questions for is 4e

and 4e has plenty of people who seem at least as good at it, and closer to the same time zone as most of the people asking things about it (plus I have not played 4e in a while and feel rather rusty on knowledge of it)

BESW

I think you have some untapped insight into table dynamics.

You handled Ira's imposition of wuxia into your historically accurate backstory well.

(Honestly I'm thinking about making a Q&A about that.)

trogdor

how does that work as something I can answer?

"oh yeah just go along with it, cause I did"

BESW

00:59

Well, no.

trogdor

or do you mean what I sort of turned it around into?

BESW

You went along with it mostly, but you put your foot down when you felt it was necessary--like not letting Ira make your PC a prince.

trogdor

true

BESW

And then when you had time to reflect and think, you came up with a way to make it work for you.

trogdor

true again

I suppose now that I think of it, it took a little more than just some acceptance

it also took some patience, a tiny smudge of stubborness (not too much obviously) and some thought on the subject

BESW

01:02

Yes.

You can definitely take that experience and turn it into learning which can be applied to similar situations others face.

You also have a lot of experience being very patient with your GM.

trogdor

whatever do you mean? my GM('s) never did anything silly

(innocent face)

BESW

Well played.

afk a bit

trogdor

hehehe

BESW

Back.

I have Thoughts about skills and approaches in Fate. Should I disgorge them here, or in the Fate chat?

[wanders over to Spoil-Lair in the meantime]

trogdor

01:22

@BESW you will not escape me forever, gadget

jeez I dunno how to spell that XD

lol

BESW

Gadget.

trogdor

that is dumb

BESW

trogdor

I hate english sometimes

@BESW yes, exactly

that man knows his stuff

doppelgreener

@BESW fate chat

Adeptus

01:25

@BESW Looks like he's working out. Mad Cat is unimpressed.

doppelgreener

@Adeptus that gauntlet is just so heavy

don't even need barbells

trogdor

lol

Adeptus

trogdor

stop mocking him he is a great man

it isn't his fault he had to replace his arm with a really heavy metal claw-hand

doppelgreener

01:49

@trogdor oh, i thought it was a glove.

no wonder he's doing lifts then.

BESW

@ghostwritingcow @jichikawa Capaldi consistently calls the character "Doctor Who." Not sure any other actor could get away with that.

Tweeted by TheParableMan on September 17, 2014 at 11:46 PM in reply to ghostwritingcow

BESW

02:06

Would it be appropriate to ask a mainsite question about naming a houserule mechanic I've created?

doppelgreener

@BESW i suspect it'd be closed as opinion-based, and more appropriate for a forum

BESW

Mhm.

What about "Is this mechanic I've invented similar to any pre-existing mechanic?"

doppelgreener

@BESW that could work

mxyzplk

The Feng Shui 2 Kickstarter is like 250% funded after being live for an hour! kickstarter.com/projects/atlasgames/…

2

BESW

@mxyzplk Very cool.

BESW

02:42

Can I get some eyes on this question before I post it, please?

Grubermensch

howdy folks

BESW

Yo.

Grubermensch

I might finally be on here more.

Adeptus

@BESW ~~eye~~ aye

Grubermensch

Who knew moving across the country took so long?

wax eagle

02:48

I dunnno, it can be a PITA moving long distance

lots of set up, lots of unpacking, lotsa meeting new folks

(and I like moving)

Grubermensch

yep

wax eagle

I've never moved cross country, but have changed countries a few times now

BESW

@doppelgreener [poke]

Lord_Gareth

@Metool What blasphemous villainy do you speak?

BESW

Tsk. Clearly it's villainous blasphemy. Keep your abhorrences straight.

The Oracle

03:02

0

Q: "Find Me a Resource"

Inspired by this question, which is only the most recent incarnation of the template. Periodically we get a question that is basically, "It seems like there are a lot of X. Can anyone give me a link to a list of X?" This seems to me to be a terrible sort of question. And yet they never seem to g...

discussion questions closing-questions

doppelgreener

03:17

@BESW bwuh!?

@BESW it looks very good, but I am not sure we've had a question like it before - a request for prior art or precedent, so expect it to meet challenge

BESW

0

Q: What precedent is there for this homebrew "skill" concept?

I'm starting to use a skill-like mechanic for my NPCs which is kind of a cross between modes and the aspects only option. I want to know what systems have used a feature like this, so I can build on prior learning rather than re-inventing the wheel. In fate-core, skills describe your character's...

skills fate homebrew

trogdor

@doppelgreener it could be just a glove, but I always had the impression it was an entirely new metal hand-claw.

doppelgreener

@trogdor i never watched it, but the fact it is wider than his sleeve suggests his sleeve could be disappearing beneath it, meaning glove

trogdor

@doppelgreener you might have never watched it, but I barely did

so I honestly don't know

Adeptus

03:38

@trogdor I used to watch it, and always assumed it was a glove/gauntlet thing. I don't think I saw the live-action movie, so I don't know what they did with it there... but they change so much between cartoon & live-action that it's not relevant

trogdor

yeah, like I said, I dunno

I just made an assumption

Lord_Gareth

04:09

Welp. I think I'm gonna do a "Lemme Tell You About - Sloppy Design"

If I don't come back, I need a high-level cleric and some diamonds

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth what are the diamonds for?

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener The rezz

BESW

> A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth i thought you'd still be able to provide hate after death, would we really notice you disappearing?

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Yeah but it'd be incoherent hate infinitely reduced in entertainment and education value.

BESW

04:11

@doppelgreener Poltergeists, zombies, and most other Un-Dead, find it difficult to manage the manual dexterity needed for typing.

However, The Fount of Incoherent Hate sounds like a nifty artefact.

4

Adeptus

04:26

So, I'm playing a Ranger in a 3.5e game. I'm currently 5th level. I have a Hawk as an animal companion, but I haven't found any way to make use of the companion.

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Yeah...there was a series of poor choices made here.

Adeptus

I haven't used him in combat, because he doesn't have many HP, & provokes AoO just getting into range (cos he's Tiny). Next level, the companion gets a Feat, which will let him do Flyby Attack, making him slightly better in combat.

@Lord_Gareth Which part... the Hawk, the Ranger, or playing 3.5? :P

BESW

@Adeptus 3.5; ranger; animal companion instead of class variant; hawk.

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus the first and last one, amazingly enough. Rangers are very respectable in 3.5 with access to certain options

Even no-ACF-no-PRC ranger is very, very viable with just, say, Spell Compendium

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth Ah, well. This is core only (yes yes, I know...)

Lord_Gareth

04:30

@Adeptus Ah. Then all of the above yes.

Plus add voluntarily joining a core only campaign, why would you do that to people you love?

In any event, Hawk isn't anything to write home about in the first place. Druids have the spell support, thanks to Share Spell, to make them viable

Rangers also have share spell but don't have anywhere near the right casting for it

If you could get an Awaken for the thing it could make a decent scout and interesting NPC?

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth It's our established gaming group, previous GM finished his looooong homebrew campaign, current GM wanted to run 3.5 but is kind of new to it so didn't want to be swamped with extra rules (& potential gamebreaking loopholes)

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus The majority of those are in core

Okay, I need

I need to rant here for a second.

Every time someone tells me they're running core-only to reduce game breaking loopholes or combos, I want to cry in frustration and rage. Because all of those loopholes ultimately involve core, and the majority of the worst ones are entirely core. All of the most powerful options in 3.5 are core. The most powerful classes and races in the game are core

The most powerful spells in the game are core, with only ice assassin entering the arena later on.

The game's most powerful feats? Core.

You will solve more problems in 3.5 by banning core than you will by banning any number of other books

Rant concluded

Thank you

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth I'm not sure it's actually possible to play a game using no core material

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman It's not but @Metool has/is running a game that comes really close

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth Convince my GM of that ;)

Lord_Gareth

04:36

@Adeptus Bring me this villain and I will show him the error of his ways.

Adeptus

Although... I have seen various ridiculously optimised characters on the forums... eg, spellcasters with caster level >100... that rely on a combination of non-core PrC's & feats

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Only made possible with the casting skeleton given to them by core to begin with. That's part of the point, really.

I'm not saying that options outside of core are not, or cannot be, powerful

I'm saying that if you want to look for the imbalance in 3.5, start in the Player's Handbook

Adeptus

> I’m not planning to accept character classes from outside the core books. Maybe after I have better familiarity with 3.5? The characters are strong enough already with fairly generous initial point allocations and I don’t want to have to worry about broken combinations.

Lord_Gareth

That's just what you already told me but with a quote tag

Or are we playing Telephone now?

Adeptus

04:52

nah, just found the quote from an email when we were discussing character options.

I'll stop talking about it now... don't want to provoke the raeg

Lord_Gareth

I can restrain the raeg. I don't want to be the ass that curtails discussion

But essentially the TL;DR version is that your DM has ideas about the mechanics of 3.5 which are not correct.

BESW

Common, popular, and reasonable-sounding! But mistaken.

Lord_Gareth

I would suggest, politely, that he looks into Warmage (CompArc), Beguiler (PHB 2), and Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) for examples of casting classes done cool, correct, and balanced to the game.

And then when he's done, banning wizards and sorcs in favor of those three

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth So CoDzilla is fine?

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman No it just doesn't actually have any obvious set of replacements aside from Spirit Shaman for Druid

Favored Soul dulls the pain a little but it's like the game got stabbed with a letter opener instead of a serrated knife.

Mystic Ranger can sort-of-kind-of replace Druid I suppose?

But not really

Adeptus

05:02

So, given "core only" restraints, changing the hawk for something more combat-oriented is about as much as I can optimise? I'm also considering Horizon Walker PrC, because they get some interesting abilities.

Miniman

@Adeptus The best core companion is probably the dog. Free trip on every attack is pretty sweet.

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Horizon Walker is pretty common, and its the fundament of the core-only Horizon Tripper build. But yes, replacing your hawk with something tougher is pretty much all you got in core only.

Miniman

Especially if you're a halfling so you can ride it too.

Lord_Gareth

Welcome to core-only 3.5, where we're not even trying to pretend melee gets anything they can use. How may I help you.

3

Adeptus

The other chars aren't particularly optimised either. Most of them are brand-new to 3.5, except the Gnome Diviner. And he's (deliberately?) not combat-optimised

Lord_Gareth

05:04

I mean...beneath the sarcasm and snide remarks I feel deep sympathy for you, @Adeptus. Playing mostly-core melee in no-op 3.5 is what drove me to optimization

Because even with no optimization in the campaign I was useless

I don't regret learning about system mastery but I can wish it had been less painful.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I really wish I'd known you when I was in the last throes of 3.5.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Vhy?

trogdor

@Lord_Gareth because we were lamenting the same things then

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus - Did you end up reading my blog post about why system mastery is good?

BESW

@Lord_Gareth You might've been able to help me figure out how to make encounters for a monk with that monky-dragony PrC, a super-low op sorcerer specialising in heat and sand manipulation, and an acid-summoning mailman warlock, without killing or boring any of them.

Lord_Gareth

05:11

@BESW Sounds like low-damage battlefield control enemies to me!

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth Yes

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Good. Optimization is a dial that system mastery lets you control. Your diviner is demonstrating this; he chose to dial down the form of power most obvious to the group.

The thing is, in a no-op campaign, it's not "deliberate lack of op"

It's "no one has their hand on the dial"

Which is why you're experiencing trouble. There are enemies the GM could throw at you that could make the hawk combat relevant

But he'd need to be able to control his dial to do that.

If that makes sense?

BESW

I was aware the dials existed, but was very very clumsy about how to use them.

Magician

Good morning.

Lord_Gareth

@Magician Tell me truly, art thou a bird?

Magician

05:17

I am Owlbear Overlord. Half-bird. Half-beast. All awesome. Now hand me your spare limbs.

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth Absolutely. But I imagine it would be hard to find an enemy that makes the hawk useful, without letting the other characters one-shot it... druid+leopard, GWF fighter, TWF rogue, GWF barbarian...

Miniman

@Adeptus Flying creature with protection from ranged attacks

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Uh-huh. See my statement about no one's hand being on the dial.

Also gadacros would work there

Didn't even have to think, thank you MMV

Adeptus

[applauds]

Magician

@Lord_Gareth So it's not so much an optimization dial as an optimization roulette, then, perhaps made in Russia.

3

Lord_Gareth

05:21

@Magician Yes, this is 3.5 without system mastery in a nutshell. But a lot of people without system mastery don't understand the difference between "deliberately weak" and "don't know about the game".

They equate "we don't care about the mechanics" with "any concept is viable"

And that is a very false equivalence

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Also "Sacrificing character power for a thematic concept"

Lord_Gareth

I wonder if I could persuade Afro to come in here to talk about Super Low-Level Game

@Miniman Which can very much be a thing, in many different ways, but is not a thing in the way a lot of people perceive it to be.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Now I'm confused.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman The basic perception is of a sliding scale where the closer you get to concept, the further you get from power, and vice versa.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Well that's not true

I just meant that you can divert from a fully-optimised character for the sake of your cool idea

Magician

05:26

@Miniman It kinda is for many people. It's the Craft: Basketweaving vs Weapon Focus thing.

Lord_Gareth

When in reality, at least in 3.5, it can be the difference between purchasing, say, fireball, through: spells known vs. scroll vs. wand vs. 3-level template vs. SLA vs. cleric domain

Look at all the ways to get fireball

Assuming for a moment that 'acquire fireball' is a powerful choice but I want it for my concept without being too strong, all I really need to do is find the more expensive method

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth I need to work on my own system mastery, for the game I'm running. Using published 3.0 adventures for 3.5 characters, which may be a mistake in the first place... The only time the characters have been really at risk so far (to lvl 3), has been from attrition. A couple of them almost got killed by dire rats, after wiping out a bunch of goblins & a baby dragon.

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Aye, I can think of a lot of ways around that, or to enhance that, or to sidestep it, depending on the goal and tone of the game.

@Miniman If we're being pedantic, anything that's not Pun-Pun is already not fully optimized. But in all honesty most optimization use at an actual table happens as follows:

"My character is Lily Hollowharp, a clever half-elf bard with a mean streets education and a talent for combining music and magic."

[Finding options that support that in an adventuring context intensifies]

Lily takes feats that let her sing and cast at the same time. She enters a PrC that gives advanced casting along with new kinds of bardic music. She looks into items that will give her more spells.

So when you see Lily in play, even if you weren't familiar with the initial statement, you see someone who is combining music and magic

And presumably whose personality and skill selection sells the idea of a gangster or wrong-side-of-tracks girl.

@BESW, I summon thee and your room powers.

BESW

FOR WHAT PURPOSE DAREST THOU SUMMON ME?

Magician

@BESW Cookies?

Adeptus

05:34

@Lord_Gareth 3/4 of the players are complete newbies, so I don't want a TPK. Or any character death, except by player stupidity. But I want them to feel that there's the risk of death, or at least severe harm. Also, that there's more ways past problems than just killing things. (Though they did get the hint that they shouldn't kill the harmless civilian goblins)

BESW

@Magician BE THERE ALSO TEA?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Lord Afroakuma, the Demon Prince of Hair, has agreed at my request to do a lecture/Q&A on creating and running Super Low-Level Game, a deliberately low-powered 3.5 campaign. He wishes to do so in this chat, most likely in its own room, starting at 4 AM UTC.

4

Could you sticky that message so folks know when to show up, if they're interested?

BESW

Convert that to UST, please.

Lord_Gareth

I have no idea what UST even is

Adeptus

you mean UTC/GMT?

BESW

05:36

Sorry, yes, UTC.

Lord_Gareth

Looks like that'd be 4 AM

Edited

BESW

How long, and what date?

Lord_Gareth

Friday September 19th, and I suppose until it's done or people leave.

BESW

I'll put it down for an hour.

Feeds

BESW has added an event to this room's schedule.

Adeptus

05:39

ooh, there are room event schedules?

Lord_Gareth

Danke @BESW

BESW

Eeyup.

Arkhaic

I don't think I'll be online at that time. Can you `note me the link to the transcript afterwards, Gareth?

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Okay, so: there are two schools of thought about how to challenge PCs with the risk of death in 3.PF. One of them is attrition, and the other is in creating challenges that are deadly in and of themselves even if the party has full HP and resources. Which one do you think is more mechanically realistic?

@Arkhaic Sure

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth The latter

Lord_Gareth

05:43

@Miniman Correct. The former requires removing a ton of options from the system, or else players that somehow fail to utilize those resources.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth What does the term 'mechanically realistic' mean?

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Realistic in light of the mechanics in the system.

Arkhaic

So feasible?

Lord_Gareth

I mean, obviously PCs expend resources in the course of a challenge. Spells are cast, wands use charges, HP are depleted, that happens

Some of those resources, though, are less expensive than others.

Miniman

@doppelgreener With respect to this question: it's mechanically unrealistic to seriously affect players using attrition, because the system includes so many mechanics for beating attrition

Lord_Gareth

05:44

Others, while 'costly', are regained with a minimum of risk (such as by resting inside a rope trick)

doppelgreener

@Miniman ah right. Like, D&D 4e: "We're trapped in a cave!" "Don't worry guys, I can take 10 on my dungeoneering check to forage for food."

Lord_Gareth

Altering this requires making changes to how players interact with resources.

Either because of deliberate action/inaction on the part of the players, or by houserules.

One thing you could do for your players is offer them resources to reduce attrition, then slowly place responsibility for preparation in their hands.

If every encounter is balanced to the idea that they're just out of bed, ready to roll and rockin' out with their glocks out, they start making decisions about efficiency. "Can we beat this without those full resources?"

"How much will using this tactic cost me?"

[Pauses to let the audience inform him if he's making sense or being a psycho fruitcake]

Arkhaic

Well as long as you don't make that sort of decision using CR...

Lord_Gareth

@Arkhaic Oh Asmodeus never do this

Arkhaic

From either seat

Lord_Gareth

05:50

Yeah def

Just...never do that.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth So... attrition occurs over the course of, say, at its simplest, having 10 spell slots, and when you are in a challenge you use them up, and if you reach a point where you are still challenged and can't use a spell slot, you die. So players will start considering "Can I beat this with less than 10 spells?" and if so, may still consider not attempting the challenge.

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Correct. And that line of thinking leads to other ones: "How can I maximize the use of these 10 spell slots? Can I find a way to use 1 spell in more than one challenge?"

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth grease, grease, grease, grease, grease, sleep, prismatic spray, grease...

Lord_Gareth

Pfft

BESW

Then you start thinking about wands, rods, and staves...

Miniman

05:52

@BESW And questions like "How can I use Mage Hand to win fights?"

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener But in all seriousness this is actually a really good example. Using Grease to win a fight at high levels is using a low-value resource (1st level slots) in place of a mid or high value resource.

If you can drop one grease and watch your party mop up, you're ready to fight the next challenge

"What am I getting for this cost?" is the fundamental question at the heart of system mastery.

Miniman

Random question that just occurred - does anyone know why it's impossible to choose Divination as a banned school?

Arkhaic

How many cohorts and babbling wheels do you need for a 90% chance at neutralizing any being not immune to fascination?

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman Legacy content.

doppelgreener

@Miniman in game or out of game?

Miniman

05:54

@doppelgreener Either.

@Lord_Gareth Hmmm?

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman Divination was one of the Wizard's original expected jobs. Back in 1e, and then again in 2e, banning it was forbidden because it meant - to the designers - that you were playing a Wizard who wasn't a wizard.

When 3.0 updated the content, the restriction remained as an iconic part of 'zard's identity

BESW

@Miniman a) Divination is considered too crucial to out-of-combat story advancement to allow it to be disbarred; b) divination is considered too weak for in-combat utility for disbarring it to have sufficient "bite" as a drawback.

Lord_Gareth

Even though the culture had left divination behind.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth my brain is now expanding that as 'lizard'

Miniman

Huh. I always assumed it had to do with Read Magic, this makes much more sense.

Adeptus

05:58

I've noticed Sleep is very useful at low levels. PC sorcerer beat kobold sorcerer on initiative, kobold sorcerer failed save & went down before she got to do anything... And I can't use the same trick against the party, because there's only one non-elf!

Arkhaic

Yup.

Such is the way SoLs work.

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