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BESW
BESW
12:00 AM
I will never understand the "Downvoters should explain themselves!" movement.
There've been multiple meta requests to implement system-wide mandatory comments for downvotes.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@BESW Yeah, there isn't much point in a non-anonymous voting system
 
BESW
BESW
Doctor Who Doctor Who Does whatever a Doctor do Can he fly? Listen, ace He's the Lord of Time and Space But wait! His name's not Doctor Who
Tweeted by ghostwritingcow on September 17, 2014 at 8:33 PM in reply to ghostwritingcow
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@BESW haha, that ending
I'm about to post up this meta topic and I'd like some input:
There's probably multiple ways to slice the pie as far as categorising the tag's content can go. I've suggested one such method. Should I? Or should I not mention the way I'd slice it, so as to not prime anyone's mind to think about it a certain way?
 
BESW
BESW
You should suggest a method as an answer, not in the question.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
Mm. Problem is it's not necessarily a tagging solution...
i guess I'll post it as an answer anyway.
 
BESW
BESW
12:16 AM
@doppelgreener Opinion-Man strikes again!
 
The Oracle
The Oracle
0
Q: What can/should we do about [new-gm]?

doppelgreenerThe new-gm tag was recently discussed in this meta topic: burninate new-gm tag The problem was identified thus: [new-gm] is not a meta tag, but it was predominantly used as one, describing the asker's skill level but not anything related to the question itself (i.e. these were questions any sort...

discussion tags
 
BESW
BESW
0
A: What can/should we do about [new-gm]?

BESWGreener's categories need no new tags. Someone being new to a game and being totally clueless about part of that game. That's a meta tag. It should instead be part of the question's text. Burn the tag, no replacement. Someone looking to improve fundamental skills. We've got gm-techniques for th...

 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Mourdos hahahahahaha well, most probably it isn't what I'd rule but the reasoning is correct.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@BESW The 'spirit of SE' argument has come out
 
BESW
BESW
And I'm sending him to meta with that one.
 
Miniman
Miniman
12:29 AM
@BESW I asked this yesterday, but it's curiously relevant
 
BESW
BESW
@Miniman Yup, I'm linking him to it as reference material.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
ttfn
 
BESW
BESW
[sigh] The only way he can get my downvote reversed before the querent modifies his criteria is by convincing me I'm wrong to have downvoted because I'm basing it on faulty understanding of the system.
Which is not the reason he originally gave for wanting to know why people downvoted: he wanted to know how he could improve his answer.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@BESW Tbh I think it was more of a 'you can't downvote me for the reason I think you did' with an obligatory mention of the 'answer improvement' reasoning
 
BESW
BESW
Welp, he's wrong; I can downvote him for the reason he thinks I did. Although I didn't; I downvoted him for a subtly different reason he thinks I can't downvote him for.
 
Miniman
Miniman
12:43 AM
@BESW I certainly wasn't disagreeing with you.
 
trogdor
trogdor
I think "you can't downvote me" isn't a great start to any conversation
when you could instead probably make a general plea in the comments for some helpful advice about how to change things so you are no longer downvoted
 
Miniman
Miniman
@trogdor Well obviously no-one can downvote you, you're TROGDOR
 
trogdor
trogdor
@Miniman can't is a strong word
shouldn't is not
at least right now, I have posted no questions.
and all the answers I have posted that I did not close/delete myself are correct, and completely usable.
 
Miniman
Miniman
I was making a trogdor joke, but wow, you've never been downvoted
 
trogdor
trogdor
were that to change though, my approach would not be "curse you idiots who downvoted me!!!"
I am very careful with what I post
that is the reason I have not been downvoted,.... and the reason my rep (which I care not for besides being able to speak in chat) has stayed at a steady 122
 
BESW
BESW
12:48 AM
Literally the only reason Trogdor joined SE is so that he could join my chat conversations with you guys.
 
trogdor
trogdor
and the reason I stayed is that this place is awesome
 
Miniman
Miniman
And burninate?
 
trogdor
trogdor
even when BESW isn't online atm
otherwise I probably would have ended up logging out of chat every time he wasn't around.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
I've had one answer downvoted. I looked at it, and thought, "Yeah, you're right, it's not very good. And these other answers that were posted after mine, say everything I meant to say but better." So, I deleted it.
 
trogdor
trogdor
but yeah, my original reason for joining was strictly to see what BESW was posting here, and add my own ideas
I do have a practically duplicate answer that I posted when I was still pretty new to the site
but BESW and Hobbs/greener educated me on what it's issues are
 
BESW
BESW
12:54 AM
@Adeptus When you hit a certain critical threshold of answers--especially on popular tags--you'll start getting Random Downvotes Of Randomness. It's like noise in the system.
 
trogdor
trogdor
I deleted it and the new info that I did add was grafted onto the better answer (with my permission and full support)
 
Miniman
Miniman
@BESW Ayup.
 
trogdor
trogdor
@BESW and this has not happened to me. specifically because I don't post in any way prolifically
which is partly because the only system I am/was really really good at answering questions for is 4e
and 4e has plenty of people who seem at least as good at it, and closer to the same time zone as most of the people asking things about it (plus I have not played 4e in a while and feel rather rusty on knowledge of it)
 
BESW
BESW
I think you have some untapped insight into table dynamics.
You handled Ira's imposition of wuxia into your historically accurate backstory well.
(Honestly I'm thinking about making a Q&A about that.)
 
trogdor
trogdor
how does that work as something I can answer?
"oh yeah just go along with it, cause I did"
 
BESW
BESW
12:59 AM
Well, no.
 
trogdor
trogdor
or do you mean what I sort of turned it around into?
 
BESW
BESW
You went along with it mostly, but you put your foot down when you felt it was necessary--like not letting Ira make your PC a prince.
 
trogdor
trogdor
true
 
BESW
BESW
And then when you had time to reflect and think, you came up with a way to make it work for you.
 
trogdor
trogdor
true again
I suppose now that I think of it, it took a little more than just some acceptance
it also took some patience, a tiny smudge of stubborness (not too much obviously) and some thought on the subject
 
BESW
BESW
1:02 AM
Yes.
You can definitely take that experience and turn it into learning which can be applied to similar situations others face.
You also have a lot of experience being very patient with your GM.
 
trogdor
trogdor
whatever do you mean? my GM('s) never did anything silly
(innocent face)
 
BESW
BESW
Well played.
afk a bit
 
trogdor
trogdor
hehehe
 
BESW
BESW
Back.
I have Thoughts about skills and approaches in Fate. Should I disgorge them here, or in the Fate chat?
[wanders over to Spoil-Lair in the meantime]
 
trogdor
trogdor
1:22 AM
@BESW you will not escape me forever, gadget
jeez I dunno how to spell that XD
lol
 
BESW
BESW
Gadget.
 
trogdor
trogdor
that is dumb
 
BESW
BESW
 
trogdor
trogdor
I hate english sometimes
@BESW yes, exactly
that man knows his stuff
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@BESW fate chat
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
1:25 AM
@BESW Looks like he's working out. Mad Cat is unimpressed.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Adeptus that gauntlet is just so heavy
don't even need barbells
 
trogdor
trogdor
lol
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
 
trogdor
trogdor
stop mocking him he is a great man
it isn't his fault he had to replace his arm with a really heavy metal claw-hand
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
1:49 AM
@trogdor oh, i thought it was a glove.
no wonder he's doing lifts then.
 
BESW
BESW
@ghostwritingcow @jichikawa Capaldi consistently calls the character "Doctor Who." Not sure any other actor could get away with that.
Tweeted by TheParableMan on September 17, 2014 at 11:46 PM in reply to ghostwritingcow
 
BESW
BESW
2:06 AM
Would it be appropriate to ask a mainsite question about naming a houserule mechanic I've created?
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@BESW i suspect it'd be closed as opinion-based, and more appropriate for a forum
 
BESW
BESW
Mhm.
What about "Is this mechanic I've invented similar to any pre-existing mechanic?"
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@BESW that could work
 
mxyzplk
mxyzplk
The Feng Shui 2 Kickstarter is like 250% funded after being live for an hour! kickstarter.com/projects/atlasgames/…
2
 
BESW
BESW
@mxyzplk Very cool.
 
BESW
BESW
2:42 AM
 
Grubermensch
Grubermensch
howdy folks
 
BESW
BESW
Yo.
 
Grubermensch
Grubermensch
I might finally be on here more.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@BESW eye aye
 
Grubermensch
Grubermensch
Who knew moving across the country took so long?
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
2:48 AM
I dunnno, it can be a PITA moving long distance
lots of set up, lots of unpacking, lotsa meeting new folks
(and I like moving)
 
Grubermensch
Grubermensch
yep
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
I've never moved cross country, but have changed countries a few times now
 
BESW
BESW
@doppelgreener [poke]
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Metool What blasphemous villainy do you speak?
 
BESW
BESW
Tsk. Clearly it's villainous blasphemy. Keep your abhorrences straight.
 
The Oracle
The Oracle
3:02 AM
0
Q: "Find Me a Resource"

Oblivious SageInspired by this question, which is only the most recent incarnation of the template. Periodically we get a question that is basically, "It seems like there are a lot of X. Can anyone give me a link to a list of X?" This seems to me to be a terrible sort of question. And yet they never seem to g...

discussion questions closing-questions
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
3:17 AM
@BESW bwuh!?
@BESW it looks very good, but I am not sure we've had a question like it before - a request for prior art or precedent, so expect it to meet challenge
 
BESW
BESW
0
Q: What precedent is there for this homebrew "skill" concept?

BESWI'm starting to use a skill-like mechanic for my NPCs which is kind of a cross between modes and the aspects only option. I want to know what systems have used a feature like this, so I can build on prior learning rather than re-inventing the wheel. In fate-core, skills describe your character's...

skills fate homebrew
 
trogdor
trogdor
@doppelgreener it could be just a glove, but I always had the impression it was an entirely new metal hand-claw.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@trogdor i never watched it, but the fact it is wider than his sleeve suggests his sleeve could be disappearing beneath it, meaning glove
 
trogdor
trogdor
@doppelgreener you might have never watched it, but I barely did
so I honestly don't know
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
3:38 AM
@trogdor I used to watch it, and always assumed it was a glove/gauntlet thing. I don't think I saw the live-action movie, so I don't know what they did with it there... but they change so much between cartoon & live-action that it's not relevant
 
trogdor
trogdor
yeah, like I said, I dunno
I just made an assumption
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:09 AM
Welp. I think I'm gonna do a "Lemme Tell You About - Sloppy Design"
If I don't come back, I need a high-level cleric and some diamonds
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth what are the diamonds for?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@doppelgreener The rezz
 
BESW
BESW
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth i thought you'd still be able to provide hate after death, would we really notice you disappearing?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@doppelgreener Yeah but it'd be incoherent hate infinitely reduced in entertainment and education value.
 
BESW
BESW
4:11 AM
@doppelgreener Poltergeists, zombies, and most other Un-Dead, find it difficult to manage the manual dexterity needed for typing.
However, The Fount of Incoherent Hate sounds like a nifty artefact.
4
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
4:26 AM
So, I'm playing a Ranger in a 3.5e game. I'm currently 5th level. I have a Hawk as an animal companion, but I haven't found any way to make use of the companion.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Yeah...there was a series of poor choices made here.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
I haven't used him in combat, because he doesn't have many HP, & provokes AoO just getting into range (cos he's Tiny). Next level, the companion gets a Feat, which will let him do Flyby Attack, making him slightly better in combat.
@Lord_Gareth Which part... the Hawk, the Ranger, or playing 3.5? :P
 
BESW
BESW
@Adeptus 3.5; ranger; animal companion instead of class variant; hawk.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus the first and last one, amazingly enough. Rangers are very respectable in 3.5 with access to certain options
Even no-ACF-no-PRC ranger is very, very viable with just, say, Spell Compendium
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth Ah, well. This is core only (yes yes, I know...)
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:30 AM
@Adeptus Ah. Then all of the above yes.
Plus add voluntarily joining a core only campaign, why would you do that to people you love?
In any event, Hawk isn't anything to write home about in the first place. Druids have the spell support, thanks to Share Spell, to make them viable
Rangers also have share spell but don't have anywhere near the right casting for it
If you could get an Awaken for the thing it could make a decent scout and interesting NPC?
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth It's our established gaming group, previous GM finished his looooong homebrew campaign, current GM wanted to run 3.5 but is kind of new to it so didn't want to be swamped with extra rules (& potential gamebreaking loopholes)
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus The majority of those are in core
Okay, I need
I need to rant here for a second.
Every time someone tells me they're running core-only to reduce game breaking loopholes or combos, I want to cry in frustration and rage. Because all of those loopholes ultimately involve core, and the majority of the worst ones are entirely core. All of the most powerful options in 3.5 are core. The most powerful classes and races in the game are core
The most powerful spells in the game are core, with only ice assassin entering the arena later on.
The game's most powerful feats? Core.
You will solve more problems in 3.5 by banning core than you will by banning any number of other books
Rant concluded
Thank you
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth I'm not sure it's actually possible to play a game using no core material
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Miniman It's not but @Metool has/is running a game that comes really close
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth Convince my GM of that ;)
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:36 AM
@Adeptus Bring me this villain and I will show him the error of his ways.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
Although... I have seen various ridiculously optimised characters on the forums... eg, spellcasters with caster level >100... that rely on a combination of non-core PrC's & feats
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Only made possible with the casting skeleton given to them by core to begin with. That's part of the point, really.
I'm not saying that options outside of core are not, or cannot be, powerful
I'm saying that if you want to look for the imbalance in 3.5, start in the Player's Handbook
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
> I’m not planning to accept character classes from outside the core books. Maybe after I have better familiarity with 3.5? The characters are strong enough already with fairly generous initial point allocations and I don’t want to have to worry about broken combinations.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
That's just what you already told me but with a quote tag
Or are we playing Telephone now?
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
4:52 AM
nah, just found the quote from an email when we were discussing character options.
I'll stop talking about it now... don't want to provoke the raeg
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I can restrain the raeg. I don't want to be the ass that curtails discussion
But essentially the TL;DR version is that your DM has ideas about the mechanics of 3.5 which are not correct.
 
BESW
BESW
Common, popular, and reasonable-sounding! But mistaken.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I would suggest, politely, that he looks into Warmage (CompArc), Beguiler (PHB 2), and Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) for examples of casting classes done cool, correct, and balanced to the game.
And then when he's done, banning wizards and sorcs in favor of those three
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth So CoDzilla is fine?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Miniman No it just doesn't actually have any obvious set of replacements aside from Spirit Shaman for Druid
Favored Soul dulls the pain a little but it's like the game got stabbed with a letter opener instead of a serrated knife.
Mystic Ranger can sort-of-kind-of replace Druid I suppose?
But not really
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
5:02 AM
So, given "core only" restraints, changing the hawk for something more combat-oriented is about as much as I can optimise? I'm also considering Horizon Walker PrC, because they get some interesting abilities.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Adeptus The best core companion is probably the dog. Free trip on every attack is pretty sweet.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Horizon Walker is pretty common, and its the fundament of the core-only Horizon Tripper build. But yes, replacing your hawk with something tougher is pretty much all you got in core only.
 
Miniman
Miniman
Especially if you're a halfling so you can ride it too.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Welcome to core-only 3.5, where we're not even trying to pretend melee gets anything they can use. How may I help you.
3
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
The other chars aren't particularly optimised either. Most of them are brand-new to 3.5, except the Gnome Diviner. And he's (deliberately?) not combat-optimised
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:04 AM
I mean...beneath the sarcasm and snide remarks I feel deep sympathy for you, @Adeptus. Playing mostly-core melee in no-op 3.5 is what drove me to optimization
Because even with no optimization in the campaign I was useless
I don't regret learning about system mastery but I can wish it had been less painful.
 
BESW
BESW
@Lord_Gareth I really wish I'd known you when I was in the last throes of 3.5.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@BESW Vhy?
 
trogdor
trogdor
@Lord_Gareth because we were lamenting the same things then
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus - Did you end up reading my blog post about why system mastery is good?
 
BESW
BESW
@Lord_Gareth You might've been able to help me figure out how to make encounters for a monk with that monky-dragony PrC, a super-low op sorcerer specialising in heat and sand manipulation, and an acid-summoning mailman warlock, without killing or boring any of them.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:11 AM
@BESW Sounds like low-damage battlefield control enemies to me!
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth Yes
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Good. Optimization is a dial that system mastery lets you control. Your diviner is demonstrating this; he chose to dial down the form of power most obvious to the group.
The thing is, in a no-op campaign, it's not "deliberate lack of op"
It's "no one has their hand on the dial"
Which is why you're experiencing trouble. There are enemies the GM could throw at you that could make the hawk combat relevant
But he'd need to be able to control his dial to do that.
If that makes sense?
 
BESW
BESW
I was aware the dials existed, but was very very clumsy about how to use them.
 
Magician
Magician
Good morning.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Magician Tell me truly, art thou a bird?
 
Magician
Magician
5:17 AM
I am Owlbear Overlord. Half-bird. Half-beast. All awesome. Now hand me your spare limbs.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth Absolutely. But I imagine it would be hard to find an enemy that makes the hawk useful, without letting the other characters one-shot it... druid+leopard, GWF fighter, TWF rogue, GWF barbarian...
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Adeptus Flying creature with protection from ranged attacks
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Uh-huh. See my statement about no one's hand being on the dial.
Also gadacros would work there
Didn't even have to think, thank you MMV
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
[applauds]
 
Magician
Magician
@Lord_Gareth So it's not so much an optimization dial as an optimization roulette, then, perhaps made in Russia.
3
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:21 AM
@Magician Yes, this is 3.5 without system mastery in a nutshell. But a lot of people without system mastery don't understand the difference between "deliberately weak" and "don't know about the game".
They equate "we don't care about the mechanics" with "any concept is viable"
And that is a very false equivalence
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth Also "Sacrificing character power for a thematic concept"
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I wonder if I could persuade Afro to come in here to talk about Super Low-Level Game
@Miniman Which can very much be a thing, in many different ways, but is not a thing in the way a lot of people perceive it to be.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth Now I'm confused.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Miniman The basic perception is of a sliding scale where the closer you get to concept, the further you get from power, and vice versa.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth Well that's not true
I just meant that you can divert from a fully-optimised character for the sake of your cool idea
 
Magician
Magician
5:26 AM
@Miniman It kinda is for many people. It's the Craft: Basketweaving vs Weapon Focus thing.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
When in reality, at least in 3.5, it can be the difference between purchasing, say, fireball, through: spells known vs. scroll vs. wand vs. 3-level template vs. SLA vs. cleric domain
Look at all the ways to get fireball
Assuming for a moment that 'acquire fireball' is a powerful choice but I want it for my concept without being too strong, all I really need to do is find the more expensive method
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
@Lord_Gareth I need to work on my own system mastery, for the game I'm running. Using published 3.0 adventures for 3.5 characters, which may be a mistake in the first place... The only time the characters have been really at risk so far (to lvl 3), has been from attrition. A couple of them almost got killed by dire rats, after wiping out a bunch of goblins & a baby dragon.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Aye, I can think of a lot of ways around that, or to enhance that, or to sidestep it, depending on the goal and tone of the game.
@Miniman If we're being pedantic, anything that's not Pun-Pun is already not fully optimized. But in all honesty most optimization use at an actual table happens as follows:
"My character is Lily Hollowharp, a clever half-elf bard with a mean streets education and a talent for combining music and magic."
[Finding options that support that in an adventuring context intensifies]
Lily takes feats that let her sing and cast at the same time. She enters a PrC that gives advanced casting along with new kinds of bardic music. She looks into items that will give her more spells.
So when you see Lily in play, even if you weren't familiar with the initial statement, you see someone who is combining music and magic
And presumably whose personality and skill selection sells the idea of a gangster or wrong-side-of-tracks girl.
@BESW, I summon thee and your room powers.
 
BESW
BESW
FOR WHAT PURPOSE DAREST THOU SUMMON ME?
 
Magician
Magician
@BESW Cookies?
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
5:34 AM
@Lord_Gareth 3/4 of the players are complete newbies, so I don't want a TPK. Or any character death, except by player stupidity. But I want them to feel that there's the risk of death, or at least severe harm. Also, that there's more ways past problems than just killing things. (Though they did get the hint that they shouldn't kill the harmless civilian goblins)
 
BESW
BESW
@Magician BE THERE ALSO TEA?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@BESW Lord Afroakuma, the Demon Prince of Hair, has agreed at my request to do a lecture/Q&A on creating and running Super Low-Level Game, a deliberately low-powered 3.5 campaign. He wishes to do so in this chat, most likely in its own room, starting at 4 AM UTC.
4
Could you sticky that message so folks know when to show up, if they're interested?
 
BESW
BESW
Convert that to UST, please.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I have no idea what UST even is
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
you mean UTC/GMT?
 
BESW
BESW
5:36 AM
Sorry, yes, UTC.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Looks like that'd be 4 AM
Edited
 
BESW
BESW
How long, and what date?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Friday September 19th, and I suppose until it's done or people leave.
 
BESW
BESW
I'll put it down for an hour.
 
Feeds
Feeds
BESW has added an event to this room's schedule.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
5:39 AM
ooh, there are room event schedules?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Danke @BESW
 
BESW
BESW
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
I don't think I'll be online at that time. Can you `note me the link to the transcript afterwards, Gareth?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adeptus Okay, so: there are two schools of thought about how to challenge PCs with the risk of death in 3.PF. One of them is attrition, and the other is in creating challenges that are deadly in and of themselves even if the party has full HP and resources. Which one do you think is more mechanically realistic?
@Arkhaic Sure
 
Miniman
Miniman
@Lord_Gareth The latter
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:43 AM
@Miniman Correct. The former requires removing a ton of options from the system, or else players that somehow fail to utilize those resources.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth What does the term 'mechanically realistic' mean?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@doppelgreener Realistic in light of the mechanics in the system.
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
So feasible?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I mean, obviously PCs expend resources in the course of a challenge. Spells are cast, wands use charges, HP are depleted, that happens
Some of those resources, though, are less expensive than others.
 
Miniman
Miniman
@doppelgreener With respect to this question: it's mechanically unrealistic to seriously affect players using attrition, because the system includes so many mechanics for beating attrition
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:44 AM
Others, while 'costly', are regained with a minimum of risk (such as by resting inside a rope trick)
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Miniman ah right. Like, D&D 4e: "We're trapped in a cave!" "Don't worry guys, I can take 10 on my dungeoneering check to forage for food."
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Altering this requires making changes to how players interact with resources.
Either because of deliberate action/inaction on the part of the players, or by houserules.
One thing you could do for your players is offer them resources to reduce attrition, then slowly place responsibility for preparation in their hands.
If every encounter is balanced to the idea that they're just out of bed, ready to roll and rockin' out with their glocks out, they start making decisions about efficiency. "Can we beat this without those full resources?"
"How much will using this tactic cost me?"
[Pauses to let the audience inform him if he's making sense or being a psycho fruitcake]
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
Well as long as you don't make that sort of decision using CR...
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Arkhaic Oh Asmodeus never do this
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
From either seat
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
5:50 AM
Yeah def
Just...never do that.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth So... attrition occurs over the course of, say, at its simplest, having 10 spell slots, and when you are in a challenge you use them up, and if you reach a point where you are still challenged and can't use a spell slot, you die. So players will start considering "Can I beat this with less than 10 spells?" and if so, may still consider not attempting the challenge.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@doppelgreener Correct. And that line of thinking leads to other ones: "How can I maximize the use of these 10 spell slots? Can I find a way to use 1 spell in more than one challenge?"
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth grease, grease, grease, grease, grease, sleep, prismatic spray, grease...
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Pfft
 
BESW
BESW
Then you start thinking about wands, rods, and staves...
 
Miniman
Miniman
5:52 AM
@BESW And questions like "How can I use Mage Hand to win fights?"
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@doppelgreener But in all seriousness this is actually a really good example. Using Grease to win a fight at high levels is using a low-value resource (1st level slots) in place of a mid or high value resource.
If you can drop one grease and watch your party mop up, you're ready to fight the next challenge
"What am I getting for this cost?" is the fundamental question at the heart of system mastery.
 
Miniman
Miniman
Random question that just occurred - does anyone know why it's impossible to choose Divination as a banned school?
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
How many cohorts and babbling wheels do you need for a 90% chance at neutralizing any being not immune to fascination?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Miniman Legacy content.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Miniman in game or out of game?
 
Miniman
Miniman
5:54 AM
@doppelgreener Either.
@Lord_Gareth Hmmm?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Miniman Divination was one of the Wizard's original expected jobs. Back in 1e, and then again in 2e, banning it was forbidden because it meant - to the designers - that you were playing a Wizard who wasn't a wizard.
When 3.0 updated the content, the restriction remained as an iconic part of 'zard's identity
 
BESW
BESW
@Miniman a) Divination is considered too crucial to out-of-combat story advancement to allow it to be disbarred; b) divination is considered too weak for in-combat utility for disbarring it to have sufficient "bite" as a drawback.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Even though the culture had left divination behind.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth my brain is now expanding that as 'lizard'
 
Miniman
Miniman
Huh. I always assumed it had to do with Read Magic, this makes much more sense.
 
Adeptus
Adeptus
5:58 AM
I've noticed Sleep is very useful at low levels. PC sorcerer beat kobold sorcerer on initiative, kobold sorcerer failed save & went down before she got to do anything... And I can't use the same trick against the party, because there's only one non-elf!
 
Arkhaic
Arkhaic
Yup.
Such is the way SoLs work.
 
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