English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Grace Note

8:00 PM

@Cerberus Yeah, the hyphen isn't quite recognized properly.

Cerberus

Any way to do it?

@aediaλ Very nice example!

And is there a way to search for things a certain user said without having to look up the number?

aedia λ

@Cerberus Hmm. You do see it has pagination right? People saying 'hi' for example go back pretty far.

@Cerberus It should let you type the name and it makes the number...

You see the "when said by" box?

Type a name in there and it should start autocompleting it.

KitΘδς

@aediaλ I think he means directly in the query string.

Cerberus

@aediaλ When I sort by "newest" and go to page 29 (the highest), it goes back only a few months, alas.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Wow. Mine goes back to November.

aedia λ

8:04 PM

@KitΘδς Ohh. I don't think so.

KitΘδς

Back later. blows kisses

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Yeah that was some word I tried earlier. For "hi" it goes back to Novermberish for me too.

Bai!

@aediaλ You're right, that works!

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Hasta pronto!

Cerberus

8:16 PM

In case you were wondering, I have made a very simple gazpacho that is nevertheless good and healthy. I like to dip bread in it.

JSBᾶngs

1

Q: Should I use the phrase: to + verb-ing or just to verb?

I don't know what is correct in two below sentences: I work everyday to learning new technologies. I work everyday to learn new technologies. If you can tell me what is correct, please explain to me why.

^ dup, as pointed out by Bogdan in a comment

aedia λ

@Cerberus Is that like a hummus? A soup?

JSBᾶngs

btw, the "cake" in Cake Thursday turned out to be caramel apples. i decided this was an acceptable substitution

Cerberus

@aediaλ google.com/…

Cold soup based on cucumber and tomato.

aedia λ

@Cerberus I am going to need to import you to cook for me when I win the lottery, as I clearly can't even find food on the interwebs.

Cerberus

8:19 PM

@JSBᾶngs Very much acceptable.

aedia λ

@Cerberus That sounds really good.

Cerberus

@aediaλ I will gladly do so!

aedia λ

@JSBᾶngs Was there enough caramel?

Cerberus

@aediaλ It is surprisingly good, for its simplicity. I like to add garlic, olive oil, pepper, salt, some lemon juice & zest (finely rasped).

People usually also add bell peppers, but I despise those.

Oh, and did I mention it's very cheap and quick to make?

aedia λ

@Cerberus Bell peppers are so pretty though! I just had some multicolored ones cut in strips as a snack.

Cerberus

8:23 PM

Ehh I will concede that they are colourful—but no farther!

aedia λ

I mean looks over her shoulder at Kit coming in I told the vicious little things they would be drowned in hummus, and when they didn't retreat, I tore them to shreds!

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs I hear and obey.

Cerberus

Haha.

JSBᾶngs

@aediaλ caramel was plentiful and delicious

Cerberus

@JSB: I did it exactly because it was forbidden.

Is that sentence acceptable?

JSBᾶngs

8:28 PM

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

And how would you analyse it?

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Gently, by candlelight.

Cerberus

@JSB: More specifically, does it seem wise to treat the "because" clause as an independent clause?

@KitΘδς Very wise.

aedia λ

8:50 PM

@Cerberus I don't think it's independent. "Exactly because it was forbidden" is more like an adverb clause or prepositional phrase; they've got a nice little tree example here.

drɱ65 δ

Come on... just one more Q upvote to 8K!

Do I come across as a rep-mongerer?

:-D

Cerberus

@aediaλ I agree. But JSB wanted to call "because" a coordinating conjunction and said that it was no part of the main clause—that, instead, it introduced an independent clause.

aedia λ

@drɱ65δ You ask good questions! I've upvoted a lot of them already it turns out.

drɱ65 δ

There it is!

@aediaλ "It turns out?"

How do you know?

Do you do queries, too?

Cerberus

@drɱ65δ Now you do!

aedia λ

8:54 PM

I went to go look at your profile to see if I could push you up the 5 points, but it looks like a little fairy got there first!

drɱ65 δ

@Cerberus Here's a plaque.

It says: In honor of Cerberus, who gave drm65 5 points in time of need.

@aediaλ You could do it too!'

:D

But you wouldn't get a plaque. :(

Unfortunately.

(8005 isn't as exciting.)

Cerberus

@drɱ65δ I didn't give you no points!

aedia λ

@drɱ65δ Unfortunately? My dentist sucks a lot of money out of me to take those plaques off, you know!

Cerberus

I just said you came across the way you suggested.

aedia λ

@Cerberus giggles

You said came.

drɱ65 δ

9:00 PM

@Cerberus But you accepted the plaque! How dare you!

So who's the fairy?

Cerberus

@aediaλ My God, are you Kit on Pink-Unicorn Day?

@drɱ65δ I accepted no such thing!

drɱ65 δ

@Cerberus (Gives Cerberus whatever's the opposite of a plaque.)

Cerberus

Fairy?

@drɱ65δ A thin, irregularly shaped layer with lots of holes?

drɱ65 δ

@Cerberus Up there somewhere

Cerberus

Ah.

I think it was MrAnonymous.

drɱ65 δ

9:02 PM

@Cerberus You were silent for at least a minute

Cerberus

So?

drɱ65 δ

@Cerberus There are already too many plaques for him.

simchona

@dr65 -- I'm not sure you'll get my ping on the answer I wrote on your question, so I'm telling you I updated my answer

Cerberus

I see no plaques...

drɱ65 δ

@simchona So sorry, I do need to change my username. The first three characters have to be typeable.

aedia λ

9:04 PM

@Cerberus She's not here right now so I'll have to gallantly try to substitute.

drɱ65 δ

@simchona I'm telling you I up*vote*d it

Cerberus

@aediaλ And gallant you are!

drɱ65 δ

@Cerberus For MrAnon?

simchona

Thank you--I hope the def'n I found in the OED answers why we say "read" as in "she is well-read"

@dr65 -- I took out the bit about "widely" since it doesn't clear anything up

drɱ65 δ

@simchona So now do you KWIM?

simchona

9:10 PM

KWIM?

drɱ65 δ

Know what I mean?

Maybe I should edit my question

simchona

So you're really asking "why is 'read' an adjective"?

drɱ65 δ

It is a little ambiguous

simchona

Or, what are the origins of it?

I can give you earliest OED uses, but its hard to be like "and then this was applied to this"

and BAM! adjective

drɱ65 δ

@simchona Basically, why don't we say the man has read? Why the man is read?

simchona

9:13 PM

Because...it's an adjective?

Cerberus

Nah.

drɱ65 δ

@simchona >But read as an adjective only makes sense when applied to words (e.g. the book is read but not the man reading). Why do we say the man is read?

Cerberus

You can also say "this text reads easily".

aedia λ

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus That's the middle construction.

Cerberus

9:16 PM

Yes.

It is just that some verbs can be used with the normal patient in subject position in certain situations, without regard for passivisation.

Grace Note

@aediaλ Highlights!

aedia λ

@GraceNote I said "dentist" and "Gallant" and I couldn't help thinking of them.

Grace Note

Heh

simchona

Well, I give up on that one.

drɱ65 δ

@simchona I know I'm not being terribly clear here, but it's the best I can do in chat.

simchona

9:18 PM

I can't answer it any more

drɱ65 δ

@RegDwightѬſ道 Fancy.

@simchona You mean my "new" question?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

26

A: "The ticket is printing" vs "...is being printed"

The Middle Construction "The ticket is printing" is something known as a middle construction. It is called "middle" because it is not exactly a passive sentence ("The ticket is being printed") and not exactly an active sentence (because the "ticket" is not really the agent of the action). Some...

simchona

Yes

drɱ65 δ

@simchona That's OK; neither can I. That's why I asked it.

simchona

I think you're asking "why did someone decide to make this an adjective" when we may not know

I could be wrong; I probably am

drɱ65 δ

9:19 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Or the products are selling like hotcakes!

@simchona You probably aren't, but we'll see

g2g

simchona

I'm not sure there's a logical leap for 'why are there two ways to say this'

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The thing is, I don't think "I am read" is a middle construction, or a result of such. @Cer.

"The book reads well" would be midcon.

But "I am well read" isn't.

German has "belesen", and Russian has "начитанный". I think French has something similar IIRC.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 You are right that it is the reverse of the other construction: in I am well read, the agent moves into the position that is normally taken by the patient (namely the subject of the passive).

Dutch has belezen (surprise).

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Some of those may be calques, but certainly not all. The Russian word, for instance, is way too complex. And it's clearly a participle.

Cerberus

It would be typical for Greek to be so sloppy with agents and patients too, though I can't think of an example at the moment.

I think it is a common phenomenon in many, if not all, IE languages.

KitΘδς

9:26 PM

Mmm, sloppy Greek calques. My favorite.

Cerberus

Greek is just as sloppy as English with passivising.

(Isn't there a better word for that?)

simchona

passivization

Cerberus

Yeah OK, but that's almost the same.

simchona

Passivisceration

Cerberus

Passivication?

simchona

9:33 PM

Passivesuvius

I feel like I'm obliterating passives now

Cerberus

We are.

But they don't mind.

They just sit there.

simchona

It's those aggressives you need to worry about

They're always jumping in the way

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Passivating.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Is that the more frequently used term?

Jez

9:49 PM

9

Q: What do you call a person who is always online on the Internet?

Is there any specific word for it? I am just curious to know because staying online is like a profession nowadays.

single-word-requests

That sounds like the opening line of a joke

simchona

@Jez I was apparently the answer to that joke

(comments since deleted, since I didn't want to be associated with it)

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Well, is "passivising" really a word?

Cerberus

@KitΘδς I really don't know.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus I know that "passivating" is a real word.

I have not heard of passivising.

user19161

@Jez You call him a slacker, like I said a few hours ago.

Cerberus

9:59 PM

@KitΘδς OK that seems reasonable.

user19161

@KitΘδς No it is random crap largely.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Damn. Really? I was trying to be hot-headed.

@JasperLoy Sure. Whatever.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς So much I gathered.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs It is mine.

simchona

@Jez--I'm not sure why someone voted to close your question already

user19161

10:05 PM

@simchona Thank you, I noticed.

user19161

In case anyone missed it, Rhodri has deleted account.

user19161

@cerb Matt has given me pretty good advice to me in an email, I think I will consult him in future instead!

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Very wise! E-mail is a much better medium.

user19161

@Cerberus It is OK here if it is overly cryptic. There is a skill at making people understand what you are saying without letting the others understand. Perhaps I was practising that.

Cerberus

I don't know. I'm not a huge fan.

user19161

10:13 PM

@Cerberus And I think Matt is a much better advisor!

user19161

@Cerberus Neither am I. After all, I wouldn't like it when shit hits me.

Cerberus

OK, good.

user19161

I was actually both referring to the fact that I don't particularly like it and also "when shit hits the fan" if you didn't realise. Sometimes I wonder how many realise the multiple meanings in what anyone writes.

user19161

Yo @chaos! I left a comment on your meta question.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

ok bro.

Cerberus

10:19 PM

@JasperLoy This one I didn't realize, and I still don't get what "it" means in the line I an now replying to.

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I like how you describe the importance of brevity. Great minds think alike.

simchona

@Jasper Except it's based on a quote, and its neither quoted correctly nor cited

It's Shakespeare:

phrases.org.uk/meanings/74850.html

user19161

@Cerberus Well "it" means saying things cryptically to avoid understanding by non-intended parties. So I am just saying that it is not good if it is not cryptic enough and non-intended parties understand. That's all. Now go back to your thesis!

user19161

@simchona Yes I remember this. I remember everything you say to me.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy OK understood!

user19161

10:31 PM

Anyway I will try to fix my Debian till it becomes as functional as Ubuntu. I like Debian as it is an independent distro with more upstream version of packages. Ubuntu is a bit too fanciful and based on Debian after all.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Christianity is booming. We are getting twice was many question as there is nessasry for healty beta.

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Are you part of the site?

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@JAsper of course.

I commited.

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū committed

user19161

However it can be focused or focussed, both are OK.

aedia λ

10:33 PM

@Cerberus Wait, something was comprehensible? We must remedy that immediately! Um... Wolkenkuckuckshaus!

user19161

@aediaλ Actually I would say 99 per cent of this room is comprehensible.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Nice!

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū My friend invited me to a Christian rally. I will be going tonight.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@Jasper good lluck. Are you christian?

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I was, sort of, and then I stopped believing, so I left the church I was attending, not wanting to stay for the wrong reasons.

user19161

10:39 PM

So I would say I am not one now.

simchona

@JasperLoy I can admire that type of integrity

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

I hope that you go back. Just remember; God always welcomes you back with open arms.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No preaching in this chat.

simchona

Assuming you believe in God.

Cerberus

I am going to flag all that religious talk. It is offensive.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:42 PM

Hear hear! That from the Hell dog means a lot.

Cerberus

Indeed it does! I'm not bragging about Tartarus either.

simchona

What about the Elysian Fields?

aedia λ

Νεφελοκοκκυγία?

KitΘδς

@RegDwightѬſ道 Can I proselytize?

simchona

@KitΘδς Hear ye, hear ye!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:44 PM

►

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Thank you. I doubt I will ever truly believe again, but you never know what life has in store for you.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yes!!

@KitΘδς I will follow your preaching, wherever it leads!

KitΘδς

I have been converting people to bellicophagery, after all.

user19161

@Cerberus I thought doggies only follow the bone.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Apr 17 at 15:08, by Robusto

I'm sure there will be windsurfers I could proselytize.

aedia λ

10:46 PM

@JasperLoy Sometimes there's meat on dem bones...

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hmm I might need a white suit. Those can be dashing. But I'm having some trouble liking white shoes.

@JasperLoy *men

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 It seems that there should be no XXXing in chat where XXX can be anything.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus You want me to post a picture of Sir Reginald Kenneth Dwight?

user19161

@Cerberus I hate white suit and white shoes.

Cerberus

Sure, if you like.

user19161

10:51 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Isn't that you? Where's my comb...

Cerberus

I sort of like white suits. Linen, of course.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Ehh is that your namesake?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Right, you said white. Hold on...

Cerberus

I like French dude better.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:52 PM

That was my point.

Cerberus

Right.

user19161

@Cerberus I like the Germans better.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You don't get to complain about Joe Dassin's shoes.

Cerberus

I do have a faded white linen jacket.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Gah. Linen.

Cerberus

10:53 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Oh, was that it.

@RegDwightѬſ道 What's wrong with linen?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The second you put it on, you look like you've been chewed and spit out by a cow.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus shakes head

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No wait, make that the second you barely even look at it.

KitΘδς

@JasperLoy XXX is actually very specific.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 It creases too easily, yes. Especially pants. But jackets are doable.

I also have a light-blue linen jacket.

No pants.

simchona

10:55 PM

@Cerberus You go au naturel?

Cerberus

You just can't sit or bend your arms, but for the rest it's nice.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jun 20 at 15:00, by RegDwight

Wait, what? You are clothed?

user19161

@Cerberus What you don't wear any pants? Lovely!

Cerberus

@simchona Wow I didn't see that one coming!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

simchona

10:55 PM

@Cerberus You were too busy feeling the wind in your naughty bits.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Only on special occasions.

Hey that's my cousin Berry!

aedia λ

@Cerberus The rest of what? Being a shop manikin?

Cerberus

Oh, do you know Fokke and Sukke?

@aediaλ Exactly! Hehe.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't want to see him ever again. A private matter.

user19161

10:57 PM

Why can't we see the banana? Is it a female dog?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Google Images is pretty impressive, I must say. You search for "dog in blue jacket but without pants", you get dogs in blue jackets without pants.

user19161

You search for RegDwight and you get an owl, pretty impressive.

simchona

@JasperLoy The...banana? You mean the lipstick container?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy there's a word for "female dog".

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I didn't want to come across as offensive.

Cerberus

10:59 PM

simchona

@JasperLoy Yet you tell me to say sh*t

Cerberus

These birds are in the paper every day.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy I dunno, if a mod posts an actual picture of a bitch, surely a regular user may comment, hey that's a picture of a bitch.

Cerberus

They never wear pants.

user19161

@simchona No the lipstick container is for the female dog when there is no male dog to satisfy her.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

11:00 PM

But I gotta go fight a war elsewhere. Laterz.

Cerberus

Fokke is an actual Frisian name and sounds like fuck. Sukke is a pseudo-Frisian name.

user19161

@simchona Shit is less offensive than bitch.

simchona

@JasperLoy Not the lipstick container I meant.

KitΘδς

@JasperLoy That is quite enough.

@Cerberus Can you translate it?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jun 20 at 15:01, by Kit

I'm clothed, but pantsless. That's cool, right?

aedia λ

11:05 PM

@KitΘδς Yeah, what's with all the words that aren't ananas? Must be full of loanwords.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Sure:

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 You need to be pantyless as well to be cool.

KitΘδς

@JasperLoy Pantsless, not pantyless.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am cool with or without a piece of garment of your choosing.

KitΘδς

"piece of garment" sounds odd.

user19161

11:07 PM

One can be cool and hot at the same time.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς I was about to say that sounds odd but "piece of clothing" and "piece of raiment" are fine.

KitΘδς

"piece of raiment"? I think that sounds odd too.

article of clothing.

article of confederation.

Hmm.

aedia λ

What else of a raiment do you have? A scrap?

Cerberus

@Kit: Fokke and Sukke are allowed to stay at the Elementary Teacher's School. // Fokke: "One out of four aspiring teachers failed the Elementary Arithmetic class." Sukke: "But luckily we are among the 80 % who passed!"

user19161

I think chat rep should not include sites you have less than 200. It is confusing.

KitΘδς

11:10 PM

@aediaλ It's not measured. Because I said so.

@Cerberus guffaw

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitΘδς I was in the middle of writing piece of clothing when garment occurred to me, so I just clamped it together. Deal with it.

Cerberus

It's not brilliant. But I felt I needed to post that picture because of the no pants.

simchona

I'm just going to throw this out there, if any of you are interested in power/privilege : microaggressions.com

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@keith yo.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Now I don't want to measure it either and they all look weird! What have you done?

Cerberus

11:18 PM

@simchona I am very scared of people who magnify microaggressions and other small breaches of etiquette.

simchona

@Cerberus I think some people may take them too far, but I also don't think they should be swept under the rug

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

This is intersting site....

Cerberus

@simchona I think shrugging can often be a very effective way of dealing with them.

But I suppose it all depends on the particulars.

simchona

@Cerberus I don't want this to start a full-blown argument, but also just "letting them go" means they may never improve

Cerberus

Perhaps not.

But we need not and cannot improve everyone.

simchona

11:22 PM

I disagree. I think we can try to improve people, perhaps even just one at a time.

Cerberus

It depends on who it is, and many other details.

simchona

But it doesn't mean that every situation is pointless

There are some people who are pure bigots. There are others who may not realize that their actions can be perceived as bigoted or biased

Cerberus

@simchona True.

simchona

I discovered I have online access to the OED. Score!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hey @Cerberus rejoice, we just migrated this question to Philosophy:

3

Q: What are the implications of ordinary language philosophy on the study of langauge?

If the meaning of a word is its use, then it seems as though we only need to investigate how ordinary language is used. Think of this question in terms of looking at language in two ways: one would be from a practical point of view; the other an historical point of view. But I can't see how the e...

untagged

Cerberus

11:36 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I am jubilant.

simchona

I've got to stop rep recalculating. I always lose rep.

@Chaos what you up to?

user19161

Ah the browser problem I had on Debian is fixed with installation of Java, yay.

user19161

@simchona You should still do rep recalc. That will give you the true measure of things.

user19161