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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

5:00 PM
Eats self.
oh right, lunch, where i said i'd implement stuff
I'm trying to avoid working on the marbelous interpreter right now, so I can clean my house for a party and @NathanMerrill can refactor the the interpreter and add a GUI...
5:20 PM
;(int,int); is an emoticon o:
@luserdroog yo ;D
[stalk] I didn't know you went on music.se [/stalk]
Yep. music, code-golf, SO. I make the rounds. :)
@luserdroog i'll probably get active there :D
I also try to keep up with comp.lang.c and comp.unix.programmer on usenet.
@luserdroog woah, usenet is still usable?
Kinda. I use google groups. But yes, real clients still work too.
5:24 PM
google groups? you mean dejanews? :p
I think there was a merger a while ago. Google got their archive.
so that's what google groups is
"a while" for sure :)
@cjfaure yes, in addition to the forum/mailinglist stuff, google groups is also a usenet gateway, since they bought dejanews years ago
@Sparr i was wondering about that
13 years ago
5:28 PM
I guess it makes sense how there's a porn link in every category, then?
Ok, fireworks posted :D
tiebreak by posting time? :(
that greatly discourages later participation
IMO, if you come along later and only find the exact same score as the current leader, you shouldn't take his place.
Tiebreak by golf basically ensures that people I'll have to install interpreters for most golfing languages to verify each.
why bother verifying if no one disputes?
and you'll only have to verify the top one, for sure
Ok, but by what logic should a later entry beat an earlier one that it just ties?
If a provably optimal algorithm is found, it should go to whoever found it first.
5:46 PM
as I suggested earlier, shortest code.
runtime complexity might also be a criterion
both of those are well established on the site
you're going to need a new tag for "race" or something
If I tiebreak by golf, I don't see how that doesn't just encourage someone to rewrite the current leader in a golfing language.
The point of a code challenge, in my eyes, is that it's not a golf.
I agree
Earliest best score should win
well, runtime complexity then
The only downside is that one person might do some exhaustive type of search, and another might find a more elegant way to get the same optimal solution. Not sure if you want to get into that, but then you could just have a time limit, and let people submit test cases
in a code challenge that seems like a big part of a good solution
5:49 PM
so the better solution would finish on the big case, and the more naive approach would bail out
Figuring out the complexity could be difficult for a problem like this. A time limit could work, but how would I accommodate varying hardware? I could run them all on my PC, but then people wouldn't know whether they've busted it until I do.
It's not really that difficult
the difference in nlogn and n^2 is pretty obvious, without having to exhaustively test
5:54 PM
Yes...... but within the same class (which I'd expect there to be more than one algorithm from each).
if you want to score by runtime, one way thats its been done is by a ratio
of runtimeyourprogram / runtimetheirprogram
on their machine
which reduces the need for you to come declare people loses
@KevinL Yes, I've seen it, but I never liked that method. With all the junk going on in the background of modern OSs, it just doesn't seem like a very stable ratio.
Unless you run them both many times ad take an average.
Yeah, what if someone puts their solution on ASIC?
@Geobits forget noise in the ratio. we aren't talking about a constant here. we are talking about big O
Ok. If I tiebreak by big O, then what do I tiebreak the big O by? It's definitely not inconceivable that two well-scoring programs have the same big O complexity.
5:59 PM
go ahead and tiebreak by submission time, then
or maybe there's a third good option
but having submission time be the first tiebreaker seems so contrary to a lot of the other ideals on the site
lexicographically first wins
actually, that might be an interesting code challenge, for a fixed language. solve this problem, lex. first solution wins
ascii characters all considered characters with their given order
meh, why fix the language? :p
because otherwise it's silly
Reading an array of ints into stdin and sorting them, lex first solution, in C
@EricTressler I create a new language, based on Unary. However, instead of the only character being 0, the only character is 0x09, the tab stop
also, in most languages you could insert an arbitrary number of the first legal whitespace at the start of your program, so you'd need to make a rule against unnecessary whitespace
6:03 PM
or whatever the first printable character would be
that is true. :(
@KevinL printable? 0x00 0x00 might be a legal identifier in marbelous :p
new language null-ary: Unary except uses null instead of 0
you can't have a unary language, unless you somehow diagonalize it against another language
you need at least two characters
that's not QUITE true
6:07 PM
otherwise, there is only one program of length N
that part's true
> In the case of a tie, the scoring is modified so that the most *compact* maps win. The tiebreak score is the *area* of the bounding box of each map. That is, the length of the longest line times the number of lines.

In the case that submissions tie both of these scoring methods, the tie goes to the earlier entry/edit.
^ How's that?
so you have to think of your language as the Godel numbering of a program in another language
So now you have two things to look at if you're getting close to optimal length.
which is, at least, not practical
6:08 PM
lexicographically order every C program up to length N. number them, 0 through ~100^N. now, you have 100^N possible unary programs, in increasing length
Sparr, that's exactly what I meant when I said diagonalize against another language
@Geobits I like it!
@EricTressler oh
people run into that kind of stuff when they try to do automatic theorem proving
i.e. take all of the logic rules, and apply them exhaustively, and try to prove something new. it has not been a fruitful field of research
@Sparr Yea, I like this better. If two tie on both those criteria, they're either duplicates or this is way easier to prove optimal than I anticipated.
6:14 PM
this encourages people to be as long and narrow as possible. Your metric should have been area/perimeter, to encourage squareness :|
because it's hip to be square
@EricTressler that's not strictly true
I expect square solutions to do better, by more densely packing fuses and fireworks
yeah, probably. i'm just being a bastard by giving Geobits more misgivings about his conditions
6:16 PM
Yea, I can't see a long narrow entry tying a winning square one on the first criteria.
@Geobits does || or - over - transmit a spark?
No. Should I explicitly say that?
Ugh... okaaaaaay...
6:18 PM
I can solve it right now by flood filling a checkerboard of - and |, and putting the letters at the right distance
but that's dumb, and i won't. I might try it later
Well. Assuming you're going for minimal fuse, that's a terrible idea.
No, I'm just saying that that's the state of my mental solution right now
A - fuse connects to fuses directly left/right of it, while a | fuse connects with those above/below. For example, the fuses || are not connected, and -| are.
^ ?
"if your map cannot produce a map for a test case, whether it's an impossible case or not, the score for that case is the sum of all times (41 for the example above)."
is sum of all times an easy map for any test case?
6:22 PM
sum of all times might be a better than perfect score for some test case
I tried to imagine a case where that could possibly be, but I couldn't find one.
thats what i was wondering, so if you determine that perfect score > sum of all times, is outputting blank optimal
That basically means that you are using a fuse for every single time, meaning there are no branches (which isn't valid).
At the very minimum, there's at least one branch for each letter, meaning shared fuses are required.
a1 b2 c3 d4
requires 4 fuses
How so?
6:25 PM
- does not connect to below it.
sorry, the precise nature of the simulation is still fuzzy for me
ahh, ok
Let me make that more explicit.
how do i make leading whitespace ;_;
@KevinL monospace please?
select it and ctrl-k or hit the fixed-font button
6:29 PM
so thats a 4fuse solution to a1 b2 c3 d4 right?
But the default "impossible" would be score 10, which you'd be hard-pressed to use unless you're trying to do badly.
Gotta run for now, will be back later.
A: Proposed Question Sandbox - Mark XIV

StranjyrNote for Sandbox I have not finished (or really started) the control program for this game, because I wanted to see if there was interest in it before I dedicated too much time to the project. that means that the rule are still up to be tweaked, so please leave a comment if you have a suggestion...

wishes @Geobits would turn him back into a Block of Dirt.
Q: My windsock is erect, what does this mean?

Steve V.I know that airport windsocks are calibrated to reach full erection at a particular wind velocity. At half that speed, the first half of the windsock should be erect and the second half should droop sorrowfully. At one third the speed it will be one third, and so on. Trouble is that not all win...

6:59 PM
even worse than the armpit question!
I just hit 2000 rep :D
grats on mod tools
ty ;3
Access reports, delete questions, review reviews ...Review reviews? Isn't that an infinite loop :/
@Sparr marbelous
7:06 PM
Just a random idea to blend [king-of-the-hill] & [code-golf]: Have the number of characters in a submission count against it's stealth or something like that. So that there is a balance of adding a more intelligent algorithm and it's character cost.
Anyone can take the idea, just thought it might be cool to see.
tough to balance
@SuperScript cool :D
also you can make tags like with [tag:code-golf]
@cjfaure: I know you can do that in the main site. Wasn't sure about here...
I just didn't want to look silly by trying and failing :-)
@SuperScript ah i see; sorry, i do that :P
Hm, is there any way to sync your avatar across the entire network?
i've still got the old one on ELU and such
I dunno, I've always just used Gravatar.
Then it's automatic over the entire internet.
I think.
7:12 PM
yeah, i should probably switch to that :P
BTW, what facial expression is :P showing.
I've never really got it...
^ (bad grammar, that right there)
"sticking out tongue"
though it generally just means cheeky/humorous, not the same as actually sticking out your tongue in a conversation :P
So in a "I'm a goofball", not a rude way. :P
lol -90 on MSO
7:22 PM
@KevinL: If I'm correct, the downvoter doesn't lose a point on MSO, so people wouldn't hesitate to pile them on.
they don't, but its still hilarious
Yea, I don't know what the answer poster was thinking...
Did you just run in to that randomly?
i saw it on the SO's hot meta posts
@cjfaure When you change your picture, or do anything to your profile, check the box that says "Apply this to all of my profiles"
@Rainbolt ah i see, thanks :D
7:27 PM
@cjfaure Oh hmmm.. it didn't prompt for the picture change
@Rainbolt i just went in there on this profile and clicked it, and it seems to have worked
@Rainbolt Is a dirt sandwich acceptable?
@Geobits he isn't a sandwich, the actual delivery line is:
That depends. Are we using dirt for the buns and for the middle? Is this Subway where I can have it my way?
Abracadabra, you're a sandwich.
7:33 PM
How do I put a link with a title in chat?
the normal [title](link) way doesn't seem to work?
@SuperScript [title](url)
Works for me
Markdown in here is pretty bad xD
@SuperScript This is a question or a statement?
Oh, it worked.
7:34 PM
@Rainbolt Sure, have it your way. What kind of bread would you like?
@SuperScript my search engine :D
Nevermind, I guess I had a malformed URL.
I tried it in another chat room and it failed.
like your face? ba dum tss
@Geobits Dirt. Not toasted. No cheese. Little grass on top. No dressing (ok... maybe a little rain).
Would you like that dirt with or without the usual microorganisms?
7:36 PM
Fact: 99% of people find DuckDuckGo by Googling "How can I search for <something illegal> without my results being filtered?"
Fact: 87.3% of internet "facts" are bullshit.
@Rainbolt Fact: 99% of DuckDuckGo searches are people Ducking their own name
@Geobits You broke statistics. Have a cookie.
The other 1% found DuckDuckGo it through a random campaign against Internet censorship.
I'm thinking that 1% might be a bit high.
7:38 PM
Conclusion: 99% of people are illegal.
Quick! Call la migra!
In high school we used to drive by the Bank of America office where the illegals hung out waiting to be picked up for work and shout LA MIGRA LA MIGRA and watch them scatter.
@Rainbolt xD
Looking for something to downvote so my reputation can be 2014. I'm so cruel :D
7:48 PM
@Rainbolt ty xD
There's four of them lol
Only answers cost a point though
Oh :(
Search for a is:answer (most answers have the letter a in them), sort by votes, go to last page, enjoy.
7:51 PM
Your search returned no matches.
ah, there we go
@Rainbolt You don't need the a, just is:answer works.
8:12 PM
How can I trick the editor on Stack Exchange into thinking my post is 30 characters long when it isn't?
All the non-printable chars I have tried are caught. The parser doesn't even see them.
Everything inside of <> is ignored
Links aren't counted, so [a](a 30 character link) didn't work
Any ideas?
HTML entities?
8:30 PM
LOOL, my sister just made the epicest joke ever
I was telling her about Massachusetts and she told us how she wanted to street dance - I asked mom to trade our positions so that I could go to Massachusetts and program all day, and she could do the dancing thing
she said "Well it'll work out well, you'll be Massa, you'll chu, and you'll setts."
For about 5 seconds I thought you said a word I didn't know.
You know a bad joke is coming when it starts with "Well, it'll work out well"
@Rainbolt "Massive chew sit" isn't good enough for you? ;_;
8:46 PM
I fear that nothing will ever make me laugh as hard as "syntax error" did.
@Rainbolt "syntax error"?
A: What is your best programmer joke?

Igal Tabachnik If you're happy and you know it, syntax error!

Don't star it... it was already starred a few weeks ago
@Rainbolt oh that xD I didn't laugh
It's Friday! That means Friday Night Magic!
And tomorrow is Game Day! And Sunday is also Game Day!
If I win, my standing with the local tribe of normal geeks, landwhales, and neckbeards will rise significantly.
Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, and Donald Knuth engage in a discussion on whose impact on computer science was the greatest.

Stallman: "God told me I have programmed the best editor in the world!"

Torvalds: "Well, God told me that I have programmed the best operating system in the world!"

Knuth: "Wait, wait, I never said that."
A programmer puts two glasses on his bedside table before going to sleep. A full one, in case he gets thirsty, and an empty one, in case he doesn't.
9:02 PM
@cjfaure Haha I like that one
How to find good programmer jokes: Instead of just googling programming jokes or nerd humor, append a random programming term.
A guy’s at a bar with a 5-drink limit, and he orders Drink #3 for the night. Then he tells the Recursive Bar Joke, except he adds 1 to every number in it. In the version where he orders Drink #6, the bartender says, “You’re cut off.” Guy replies, “But I can have 8 now!”
An SEO expert walks into a bar, pub, public house, inn, restaurant, club.
@Rainbolt xD
A guy walks into a bar and tells the Recursive Bar Joke, only he does it much better than I do. This joke gets funnier every time.
(what's SEO?)
9:09 PM
search engine optimizer
@VisualMelon search engine optimization
If you like infinite loop jokes, check this one out.
Why do programmers confuse Halloween with Christmas?
Because OCT 31 = DEC 25.
Wait is that real?
@Rainbolt yes.
9:10 PM
No waaaaaayyyyy
Why do Java programmers wear glasses?
Because they don’t C#!
I wasn't satisfied so I did it myself (and by that I mean I trusted the Internet to do it for me) i.imgur.com/35IZ68J.png
@Rainbolt yeah, it's insane, right?
Frustrated, the professor slams down the phone.
His colleague pops his head in to investigate, “What’s the matter?”
“Oh, its these damn students. They keep asking for us teach low-level languages.”
“So… if I told them once, I’ve told them a thousand times: There aren’t classes in C!”
@Rainbolt Apart from the idea that anyone ever used that notation
Windows 95 is a 32 bit extension for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
1 hour later…
10:30 PM
Congratulations, you are visitor no. 11111!!!!!!
you are?
Where is that from?
@MartinBüttner congratulations on the 100 upvotes!
oh, it's from the math art question
for a second i was hoping math art was GOL
@MartinBüttner speaking of GOL, i finished a start/stop and click toggles on cells
people can go waste more time it now :p
10:40 PM
@githubphagocyte thank you :) gold badge no 4 (more than on SO, yay) and rep cap 7 days in a row :D
@PhiNotPi tweetable maths
oh you already figured it out
@KevinL I saw your message... haven't tried it yet though
Do any submissions to the GOL thread use an aperiodic tessellation?
to get more points now on that one you need to find another spaceship, a gun or infinite growth
@PhiNotPi not yet I think
I might offer a bounty for the first aperiodic tessellation with wrap around boundary conditions
im trying to get aperiodic ones working, storing data is a pain
oh there's a new submission to tweetable maths
10:42 PM
How new?
@githubphagocyte that sounds like throwing rep out the window
@githubphagocyte 3 minutes
ah, a non-animate GIF
I can solve that one ;)
bleh, mb i just use a tree for penrose tiling
oh Peter Taylor answered the GoL one... that should be interesting :)
10:46 PM
indeed, no NETSCAPE2 in that gif, can I resist commenting...
hm, I wish I could play around with the Cairo tiling GoL
if I ping xleviator here, will he see it?
you can ask @Doorknob to do it, though
Do GOL on this
it's all squares and triangles. I don't know what it actually looks like
11:01 PM
any powershell gurus here?
@PeterTaylor is there a simple way to seed your cairo tiling randomly?
@MartinBüttner I found a way to create 15x15 Manufactoria custom levels: you simply change the number in the URL
:D ... that's great
@VisualMelon Why do you want to ping him?
I was just wondering if that worked, because I get pings, but presumably that's because I'm here (I was considering offering him a looping gif and an explanation, doesn't seem suitable as a comment)
Ah, pings only work for users who were in the room since {insert generic unit of time here}
I can superping him if you want, but if it's specific to a post you can just comment
11:15 PM
nah, not worth it
aaaaaand another GoL submission
I was thinking this tiling could be fun en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_tiling#mediaviewer/…
@githubphagocyte Does that even make sense?
11:31 PM
@PeterTaylor I'm pretty sure not :)
I wasn't really going to waste bounty on a joke
My unposted hack is:

if (alive.isEmpty()) {
double density = Math.random();
for (int x = -9; x < 10; x++) {
for (int y = -9; y < 10; y++) {
if (Math.random() < density) alive.add(new Point(x, y));
Is that for your Cairo tiling?
Yes, Martin asked for it
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

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