TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2014-07-23 (page 1 of 2)

Alan Munn

00:29

@PauloCereda Are you around?

pgreen2

01:17

This is a bit of a meta question, but I posted a simplified version of my failing latex source code in my question, but after I saw the answers, I realized I over simplified my posted code. How should I procede? Do i asked the best given my question, or do I modified by question, or do I need to do something different?

Paul Gessler

@pgreen2 I would say, as long as the central premise of the question has not changed, you could edit your question to clarify the additional complication missed in the first MWE. And notify answer authors with comments underneath their answers so they see your update and have a chance to update their recommendations.

Alan Munn

01:33

@pgreen2 Actually, I think it might be better to ask a new question referencing the old one.

It's a bit frustrating for users to have provided a perfectly good answer to a question and then have it change to the point that their answer no longer works or is applicable.

pgreen2

@AlanMunn I was leaning towards a new question, but I was concerned about it being flagged as a duplicate

Alan Munn

01:53

@pgreen2 I think if you make it clear why the original question doesn't work, you should be ok. Especially if you link to it explicitly.

pgreen2

@AlanMunn Thank you

Joseph Wright

07:17

Morning all

Johannes_B

@JosephWright Morning

cgnieder

@JosephWright Good Morning :)

Joseph Wright

08:14

I think @egreg would go mad at the instructions I've got to follow for revising a galley proof today: Please use the DOC file to incorporate your corrections, see below for further details. (It's not a normal Word file: some kind of special mark-up to be incorporated into a database back-end, so for the actual proof I have a PDF.)

egreg

08:50

@JosephWright What if one doesn't own a license for the-program-you-mentioned-and-I-won't?

Joseph Wright

@egreg OpenOffice, I guess

@egreg Anyway, are you seriously suggesting you'll find a university without a license

Johannes_B

0

Q: Why the renewcommand doesn't work as I expect?

I re-defined two environment \newtheorem{exmp}{Example} \newenvironment{examp}{\begin{exmp}}{\renewcommand{\proofname}{Sol.}\end{exmp}} \newenvironment{pf}{\begin{proof}}{\renewcommand{\proofname}{Proof}\end{proof}} to make sure that when the proofname which is right after the examp environmen...

environments

^^ For me, a typical case of »What?«

Johannes_B

09:13

@egreg Taking a lunch break, take your time, i wanna be back in time for the big party.

@PauloCereda quack

egreg

@Johannes_B It's still 6:30 am in Paulo's timezone.

Johannes_B

@egreg I am an alarm clock :-)

quack quack quack quack quack

Joseph Wright

09:28

@egreg Possibly they'd take a marked-up PDF, but that's not in the instructions (other publishers will do that)

egreg

@JosephWright Did you see the last edit in tex.stackexchange.com/a/192688/4427? :(

Joseph Wright

@egreg Hadn't spotted what was edited in, but have had a look now

@egreg There is of course a tension between 'package everything up' and 'have an understanding of what is happening'. At least in my experience most end-users really don't want to learn the programming discipline needed to do the work in plain TeX.

egreg

@JosephWright Exactly.

Joseph Wright

@egreg Some plain users can be a bit intense

David Carlisle

@egreg one more tick to get:-)

egreg

09:35

@DavidCarlisle :)

And eight upvotes, of course.

David Carlisle

@egreg even I might find those to push you over the edge if they were still needed at midnight:-)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Won't you accept my answer to your question instead?

David Carlisle

@egreg I have always accepted all your answers to my questions.

cgnieder

@egreg »because NormalTeXSyntax is more natural than whatever else syntax« – this is why it is so easy to learn ;)

David Carlisle

@cgnieder I agree. more people should just read xii.tex: plain tex is so much easier to read than l3

egreg

09:42

@cgnieder Oh, yes! That's the reason! Have you ever tackled the \xyzzy macro in the TeXbook?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright but ...

Jul 17 at 21:47, by David Carlisle

@JosephWright at times:-) but point remains that people often balk at a dozen lines of code but are happy to load half a million lines of tikz or expl3

cgnieder

09:56

@egreg easy! :) Actually I hadn't. Quite clever

izabera

guys can you help me please? i'm monitoring pdflatex and it uses way more ram than what i expected

107mb? is it normal?

i'm on windows 8

and latex uses 103 mb

is this a poor implementation or what? not many computers had 100 mb ram 20 years ago

egreg

10:16

On my system, for a mildly complex job it's 40.3MiB

izabera

i was compiling this

complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/latex-bench

35 pages

so is this normal? over 100 mb with both input and output files under 300 kb?

egreg

@JosephWright Apparently, wipet's insistence gave its fruits. :(

@izabera 34.2 for me. But it depends on the memory setting (and probably the OS), I guess.

cgnieder

@DavidCarlisle that goes without saying!

Joseph Wright

@egreg Accepted answer is purely up to the OP

egreg

@JosephWright Of course. But now I need two other green ticks. Let me look for an answer by @DavidCarlisle to steal a tick from.

Paulo Cereda

10:28

@egreg: cake ready. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda but he's going backwards at the moment

egreg

@PauloCereda Ticks missing.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle You are being naughty, aren't you? :)

@egreg Oh no! :)

izabera

@egreg can you tell me what's your os?

egreg

@izabera Not Windoze, of course. ;-)

izabera

10:30

this doesn't really answer the question <.<

David Carlisle

@izabera osX

Paulo Cereda

@izabera It sums everything, actually. :)

izabera

@egreg and i was using texlive, what about you?

wipet

what does mean the abbreviation OP when you are talking about the author of the question?

Paulo Cereda

@cmhughes: hey Chris! Are you now in UK? :)

egreg

10:31

@izabera Also TeX Live

Paulo Cereda

@wipet It's Original Poster.% :)

David Carlisle

@wipet Original Poster (so yes)

izabera

@egreg great, ty

wipet

@PauloCereda I am happy that it doesn't mean Olsak Petr :)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle See, I added a % to the end of my reply, so my reply will be accepted instead of yours. :P

@wipet ooh! :) That would be awesome, then you'd be everywhere. :)

@wipet: from my gaming background, OP also means overpowered. :) So for everything you want to emphasize the power, you say This thing is OP. For example, @David will agree that picture mode is OP. :)

David Carlisle

10:42

@PauloCereda you should ask a question (2 actually) on the main site with missing % so @egreg can answer them.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle :)

Andrew Zabavnikov

Hello to everybody! Did you ever compile preview.dtx?

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov no, why?

Andrew Zabavnikov

@DavidCarlisle I'm just getting Use of \reserved doesn't match its definition..

@DavidCarlisle I want to take a look at the implementation.

Joseph Wright

@AndrewZabavnikov Using latex not pdflatex?

Andrew Zabavnikov

10:44

@JosephWright The same.

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov pdflatex preview.drv

Andrew Zabavnikov

@JosephWright By the way, what is the difference?

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov note the extension ^^^

Andrew Zabavnikov

@DavidCarlisle What it stands for?

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov "driver" preview is set up the "old" way with a separate document

Andrew Zabavnikov

10:47

@DavidCarlisle Ahh! After edit it makes more sense :-)

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov sorry concentrated so hard on the extension I got the filename wrong:-)

Andrew Zabavnikov

@DavidCarlisle Funny thing - someone who packaged preview for ctan seems to have forgotten to package preview.drv. OK, will download from somewhere else :-)

@DavidCarlisle Thank you very much!

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov no it's generated from the dtx when you run the .ins file same as the .sty is generated

Andrew Zabavnikov

@DavidCarlisle Yes, thanks. Just found out by googling that it is mentioned by google in preview.ins :-)

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov the drv is there installed by default in my texlive 2014 do you not have it?

$ kpsewhich preview.dtx
/usr/local/texlive/2014/texmf-dist/source/latex/preview/preview.dtx

Andrew Zabavnikov

10:54

@DavidCarlisle Mmm. I actually was trying to compile in home subdir. Will now just copy the mentioned one :-)

wipet

@egreg I am wonder that you recognize one shift of accepted answer between millions of your others.

egreg

@wipet I just noticed your edit and then the change in the accepted answer (of which I'm notified by a -15). I fully disagree with your point of view about simplicity. ;-)

David Carlisle

@wipet particularly today as he needs three accepted answers to reach 300K votes, he got within one, and now he needs two:-)

Paulo Cereda

11:24

►

tohecz

11:51

hello!

Paulo Cereda

@tohecz Tom!

tohecz

@PauloCereda how're you?

Paulo Cereda

@tohecz Fine, thanks. :) And you?

tohecz

@PauloCereda it's all fine :)

tohecz

12:26

I have a small English question: would you add ", respectively" at the end of this sentence?

David Carlisle

@tohecz no. You could add it somewhere but I don't think you could add it after z \in C (you'd have to reword a bit I think) but it is clear enough as is

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle I agree. The referee insists.

egreg

@tohecz The referee thinks people reading your paper are stupid. ;-)

David Carlisle

@tohecz tell him I said so and that egreg doesn't like the fraktur R and I either:-)

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle I like it, that's the problem :D

@egreg oh no!

egreg

12:37

@tohecz Look what centuries of German domination did to Bohemia. ;-)

tohecz

@egreg What have the ~~Romans~~ Germans ever done for us?!

David Carlisle

@tohecz if you want to add it then possibly add it first ... $...$ respectively the real and imaginary parts of $z \in C$

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle that is possible? really? kool

David Carlisle

@tohecz They scored 7 against Brazil

@tohecz remember I'm English: I know nothing about English grammar, but it sounds plausible to me

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle they built infrastructure here, the Austrians brought a lot of profit, good laws, some good years of making Prague the capital of Europe, etc.

@DavidCarlisle :)

and yeah, they killed couple million Czech Jews, who used to be the best marketers here :-/

Johannes_B

12:44

0

Q: Missing main.bbl file

I have noticed that my main.bbl file is no longer in my folder. I have done my thesis, 9 chapters and all compile individually. When I compile it all, nothing happens and I obtain error that no main.bbl. When checking in folder, no main.bbl. What should I do? am desperate SOLUTION The solution...

biblatex

tohecz

@Johannes_B it's surely a dupe. Howeever, I'd say let's close it as unclear

Johannes_B

^^ Anybody up for closing as unclear what you're asking for?

@tohecz Seems like my message wasn't transferred.

tohecz

@Johannes_B ah :)

Johannes_B

@tohecz unclear, cause the problem was fixed by fixing other errors.

wipet

I don't understand the serviceability of ExplSyntax. The code is not human
readable. For example somebody reads this fragment of C code: "for (i=1;
i<20; i++) ...". What he recognizes first? The keyword "for" (aha, it is
loop), the variable "i" and the conditional "i<20". These important segments
of the code are easily visible for human reader. On the other hand the
similar code in ExplSyntax would be: "\cs_package_for:NN { \cs_package_set:NN
\_l_wipet_i:NNnn { 1 } ; \cs_package_cond:NTF { \_l_wipet_i:NNnn < 20 } ;

tohecz

12:48

@Johannes_B unclear, because he mixes Q&A

what you say would make it OT

Johannes_B

@tohecz I'm not sure, since i don't even have enough rep to cast close votes.

tohecz

@Johannes_B I see. In general, questions that are "typos" or "stupid mistakes" are getting closed as off-topic since they "don't fit into the SE scheme".

Johannes_B

@tohecz Thanks, i'll keep that in mind.

tohecz

In this case, the question is such a mess that the simplest thing to do is to close it as UWYA (unclear what you're asking).

Johannes_B

At the current pace, i should be able to close within the next year.

tohecz

12:51

@Johannes_B good luck :)

Johannes_B

@tohecz I just imagined how the village people would have danced UQYYA

tohecz

@Johannes_B sorry, there was a tpyo

Johannes_B

@tohecz didn't even notice that :-)

UQYYA surely sound more melodic than UWYA

David Carlisle

@wipet hard to comment when the example isn't actual code, it's not readable as it's not correct. It is hard to read at first but I find the same of German but Germans seem to manage it well enough. But then I was first exposed to it back in 1992 or so so it's hard to comment objectively on how a new user should feel about it. There is of course no intention that an average latex user ever needs to see it at all.

Johannes_B

@wipet @DavidCarlisle This could be something going on for a while. It might fit better in an extra room?

btw: I am pretty comfortable with the german language ;-)

David Carlisle

12:56

@Johannes_B nah, I'm done:-)

egreg

@wipet \int_step_inline:nnnn { 1 } { 2 } { 19 } { <code using #1 as the current value> }

@wipet Don't tell me it's less readable than the C code.

tohecz

@wipet I cannot but here some sourness from your post.

There's a (sort-of successful) LuaLaTeX which tends to incorporate LaTeX with some other, more "modern" programming language. But it all is very difficult.

wipet

@tohecz Sorry, may be my language problem

tohecz

13:13

@wipet I just mean that you sound somehow angry, the point is, we all know that TeX is not a very good programming language for complicated things, but we do our best

wipet

@egreg You can compare the word "for" with "\int_step_inline:nnnn". Where is less of the ballast?

tohecz

@wipet You can't compare Hello World!\bye with #include<stdio.h> int main(int argc, char *argv[]){ std::cout << "Hello World!" << std:endl; return 0; }

wipet

@tohecz It isn't C language. Use printf :)

egreg

@wipet You can't compare TeX to C in any case. I don't see your point: without reading a C manual you can't know the syntax of for, nor that it exists. In the manual of expl3 it is explained that for integer based loops one can use \int_step_inline:nnnn.

tohecz

@wipet whatever. The point is: TeX is a typesetting system and the fact that people want to use it for millions of other things can't change this simple fact.

David Carlisle

13:19

@wipet printf is hardly readable with weird % codes until you are used to it. It is really meaningless to pick out individual expressions from a language you know and a language you don't know (or even two languages you do know) and compare them.

Paulo Cereda

@tohecz This is C++. Ugh. :P

tohecz

@PauloCereda Ugh! -- do you remember this game? :D

Paulo Cereda

@tohecz I do. :P

tohecz

@PauloCereda I loved it, but it was hey so difficult!

egreg

@PauloCereda Is it even worse in C+++?

Paulo Cereda

13:23

@egreg That's C+-. :)

@tohecz Me too. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda we windows people prefer C# of course

egreg

@PauloCereda How's it in brainfuck?

wipet

@tohecz Yes. I fully agree.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Of course. :) System.Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");

@egreg ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++‌.------.--------.>>+.>++.

Jesus Christ.

@egreg: but nothing beats LOLCODE:

LOLCODE

LOLCODE is an esoteric programming language inspired by lolspeak, the language expressed in examples of the lolcat Internet meme. The language was created in 2007 by Adam Lindsay, researcher at the Computing Department of Lancaster University. The language is not clearly defined in terms of operator priorities and correct syntax, but several functioning interpreters and compilers already exist. One interpretation of the language has been proven Turing-complete. == Language structure and examples == LOLCODE's keywords are drawn from the heavily compressed (shortened) patois of the lolcat Internet...

HAI
  CAN HAS STDIO?
   VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!"
 KTHXBYE

egreg

@PauloCereda Hey! It works!

wipet

13:29

When there is Hello Wordl example, then you can set \tracingall and compare: "hello world\bye" with\documentclass[a4paper,10pt,english,draft]{article}
\usepackage[quiet]{fontspec}
\newfontface\textun{lmroman10-regular.otf}
\begin{document}
Hello world
\end{document}
in XeLaTeX or LuaLaTeX.

David Carlisle

@wipet you could compare them, but it wouldn't tell you anything very interesting or that you don't know already so why bother?

wipet

The time does things more complicated...

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Spooky isn't it? :)

egreg

@PauloCereda I think I'll do rm Bff as soon as possible.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg :)

David Carlisle

13:32

@wipet sure if you are writing in English Ascii with computer modern, plain Tex does Ok but if you don't do that then there has to be some code somewhere and either you use plain and write it yourself or you load a file where someone has already done it.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle: @tohecz steals vowels. :)

wipet

@DavidCarlisle The example above: 165 lines in log for first case and 2212674 lines in log in the second case. There is more than 13 thousands times. So time does things more more more complicated.

David Carlisle

@wipet people have had the choice of using plain or latex for 30 years, and people have been arguing all that time that there are benefits to the simpler plain format. But that argument is basically lost, the overwhelming majority choose to use a format designed for document production rather than (as the TeXBook calls them) "Basic macros" that are a good educational base for showing how TeX works but require too much bespoke programming to make them generally useful for document production.

wipet

If you need to trace something, it is possible in first case and it is impossible in the second case.

David Carlisle

@wipet not impossible, interesting:-)

Johannes_B

13:40

@wipet One thing i like about TeX (and it's packages) are pretty straight to the point error messages.

Paulo Cereda

One thing I like about recursion: the recursion thing.

:)

Johannes_B

Jun 18 at 5:14, by Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Indeed!

@egreg 13 points to go :-)

egreg

@PauloCereda Statement: Nobody likes proofs by induction. Proof. A set of zero people is made of people who don't like proofs by induction. Suppose every set of n people is made of people who don't like proofs by induction. If we have n+1 people, take one aside, the remaining n people don't like proofs by induction; put back the one and take another one aside, so the same holds. Hence any set of people is made of people who don't like proofs by induction.

4

@Johannes_B Should I steal a tick from David's?

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Oh my!

@Johannes_B That was surely a classic. :)

Johannes_B

@egreg Don't pake the dragon :-)

David Carlisle

13:52

@egreg easy input one just came in % ...

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda I tried to google it, but it kept telling me »Did you mean recursion?«

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B :)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda Almost drove me mad till i got it.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Do you mean the “trailing space with \input” one? Duplicate, unfortunately.

tohecz

@egreg that's a good one as an excercise on induction for 1st year students!

egreg

13:59

@tohecz I always do it in my first year classes, but the statement is every train is on schedule.

tohecz

@egreg the funny thing is that the 1st part of the proof works here :)

egreg

@tohecz Of course. A colleague of mine presented it in the form "every set of points in the plane is collinear”, calling it ”Fish's theorem”. It was April 1, of course.

tohecz

@egreg however, that statement fails for 3 rather than for 1

egreg

14:32

Is anybody mentioning this? :D

11

No palindrome, unfortunately. ;-)

Johannes_B

@egreg ^^

egreg

@Johannes_B :)

Paul Gessler

@egreg congratulations!

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Congrats!

egreg

@Johannes_B @PauloCereda @PaulGessler Thanks. One never gets used to this. :)

Paulo Cereda

14:38

@egreg I'm working on it:

@spolsky A great milestone for the TeX.sx community: egreg broke the 300k barrier! http://tex.stackexchange.com/users/4427 :)

Tweeted by paulocereda on July 23, 2014 at 2:38 PM

egreg

Hey! Jon Skeet is almost 700K!

Paulo Cereda

@egreg He asked questions too. :P

egreg

@PauloCereda That explains all!

Paulo Cereda

@egreg That might be a good plan for @DavidCarlisle to catch on. :)

subham soni

hi guys

whats the issue with my infinity question

egreg

14:54

@subhamsoni You got an answer, didn't you?

subham soni

I got an answer

But there are some hesitations

egreg

@subhamsoni Of course: your professor's idea is somewhat peculiar. Note that the symbol ∞ is called “infinity”, but in its usage in mathematical analysis it has nothing to do with the concept of infinite set.

subham soni

hmmm

egreg

The statement “lim<sub>x → 0</sub> 1/x<sup>2</sup> = ∞” has a precise mathematical meaning that has no connection with infinity in its philosophical meaning.

subham soni

As such I don't have any issues with that, but he once said, that it shouldn't be a closed one

egreg

15:03

Sometimes you find |A|=∞ to mean that the set A is infinite. But you'll never find such a notation is a book on set theory.

subham soni

hmmmm

egreg

@subhamsoni I think exactly the opposite, but why bother? ;-)

@subhamsoni Everybody uses that symbol, just like everybody uses 7 for the number seven; does it convey any idea of “seven-ness”?

Or does the letter A convey any idea of "A-ness"?

subham soni

no ;)... Now I get it ;) :0

;)

David Carlisle

@egreg, I've been at a meeting, I see you got there, congrats:-)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle :) Did you have to talk or just be sitting there thinking to the next cricket test?

David Carlisle

15:11

@egreg just sit and concentrate on the meeting, of course

egreg

@DavidCarlisle And in order to look more concentrate you closed your eyes and slept through it?

David Carlisle

@egreg I think you forget this is industry not academia

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Oh yes, sorry!

Andrew Zabavnikov

15:47

"User does not have permission to comment on this post" - what the hell?

David Carlisle

@AndrewZabavnikov either not enough rep or the post has been locked?

Andrew Zabavnikov

@DavidCarlisle Sorry, browser jokes...

wipet

@egreg First: congratulations. Second: @tohecz @DavidCarlisle I return to the thread. The C language was only an example. I don't know any language where I must read my nickname or name of the package plus another info about local/global validity, type etc. plus :NNnnTF mystique in every identifier of the language (keyword or variable name). This is very troublemaking during reading. If you needn't to understand it then we cannot follow our discussion.

David Carlisle

@wipet the :nnnn looks odd but when you can change it to :nnnx to fully expand the last argument before calling, and compare that to the contortions with 31 \expandafter or \edef that you see in typical tex code, you see why it's there. It is addressing an issue that is not there in other languages.

tohecz

@wipet well, in C++, for instance, you write std:: every time, or you use using namespace. However, that's impossible in LaTeX, since the clashes between names wouldn't be resolved

egreg

15:57

@wipet Thanks. One has to remember that TeX has no concept of namespace; if you have one Plain TeX document, you can use almost whatever name you want for your internal commands; if you want a system that can be employed by many users, where many additional packages are available, a namespace becomes necessary and there's no other way in TeX than hooking it in the name of macros.

About local/global: the save stack is the problem, of course. But would you use the same variable locally and globally in C?

1010011010

Hi, typesetting of Euler's number "e". Regular/arabic numbers are typeset upright in equations. Do I also typeset "e" upright? What do you think?

wipet

@egreg There is the possibility of intelligent namespaces. I tried it 15 years ago and it was working (as I wrote in my prevous message). It would be a part of eTeX but it isn't.

egreg

@wipet Nobody will chase you if you don't prefix your variables' names with l_ or g_; but establishing a standard is good. Just an example: one of my answers deals with a problem due to usage of \TrimSpaces as an internal macro in a package. This is a name that should be reserved to user level macros and, indeed, the issue was exactly there: a loaded package defined a user level \TrimSpaces command,

@wipet That would be a nice addition, probably; but it's not available.

Paul Gessler

@1010011010 :

25

Q: How to best typeset "special" constants (complex unit i, Euler's number e,...)?

I'm trying to come up with a typographically appealing way to express "special" numbers such as the complex unit i = sqrt(-1) or Euler's number e. It has to be such that it cannot be confused with regular numbers (such as the running index i, for example), and would ideally work for serif as well...

math-mode best-practices

David Carlisle

@1010011010 ⅇ

1010011010

16:09

@DavidCarlisle I'm assuming that's the unicode character?

David Carlisle

@1010011010 all characters are unicode characters:-)

5

@1010011010 If it doesn't look like an e install some decent fonts

1010011010

@DavidCarlisle Or get a better monitor :-(

David Carlisle

@1010011010 assuming you are using a graphical monitor not a text terminal, the monitor shouldn't matter?

1010011010

It's a 25 inch wide but it doesn't go beyond 1680x1050, so every time I look at somebody else's monitor I'm literally blown away by the sharpness and detail of whatever picture.

egreg

@1010011010 No, that's a Unicode character named DOUBLE-STRUCK ITALIC SMALL E, which a priori has nothing to do with Napier's constant. There's no Unicode point for it and for the imaginary unit either.

1010011010

16:16

I'll just stick with the italic notation. It's not so much a notational issue as it is a convention thing, to me at least.

Thanks.

David Carlisle

@egreg well the default glyph makes it fairly unusable in systems that use the default glyph, but Unicode does explicitly call this out to denote e

The Unicode Standard 7.0, Copyright © 1991-2014 Unicode, Inc.
All rights reserved.

2145
ⅅ
DOUBLE-STRUCK ITALIC CAPITAL D
•
sometimes used for the differential
≈
<font> 0044
D
  latin capital letter d
2146
ⅆ
DOUBLE-STRUCK ITALIC SMALL D
•
sometimes used for the differential
≈
<font> 0064
d
  latin small letter d
2147
ⅇ
DOUBLE-STRUCK ITALIC SMALL E
•
sometimes used for the natural exponent
≈
<font> 0065
e
  latin small letter e
2148
ⅈ
DOUBLE-STRUCK ITALIC SMALL I
•
sometimes used for the imaginary unit

@egreg I'm sure you are well used to it but Word lets you input that Unicode character and have choice of double struck upright or italic typeset glyph as a separate document option.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle “sometimes”. Well, Mathematica uses those horrible symbols. And a few others.

David Carlisle

@egreg That's where they came from, yes.

@egreg and you can go &exponentiale; in HTML and get the same:-)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Surely you're the one to blame.

David Carlisle

@egreg for them being in html, probably:-)

egreg

16:21

@DavidCarlisle Penitentiagite

Paulo Cereda

@egreg I haven't deployed Mathematica 10 in this Linux machine (they gave me a free update), but I can tell the symbols look uglier in the Unix version. :P

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda blame barbara, they are probably using stix:-)

egreg

@PauloCereda At least they're slanted. ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Uh-oh. :) Apparently it's Caslon or something.

@egreg :)

Carrot cake anyone? :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda is this in any way related to the preceding discussions on e or expl3 syntax?

Please don't touch

16:37

How can I download preview package with version dated before July 29, 2012? I cannot find the link.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle You won't get cake. :P

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I got minecraft cake for my birthday (square with red squares on top)

@Pleasedon'ttouch it hasn't changed in texlive for 4 years see tug.org/svn/texlive/trunk/Master/texmf-dist/tex/latex/preview/…

egreg

@PauloCereda Yes, please!

Please don't touch

@DavidCarlisle I see. So I have to trace the pstricks and beamer.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg You will get a bigger piece today. :)

@DavidCarlisle Oh my! Spawned in creative mode or done legit? It's quite difficult to craft one. :)

David Carlisle

16:48

@PauloCereda oh we've crafted loads in survival mode (M has a very extensive farm with every animal and every crop I think:-) but this was real cake, my wife was apparently given instructions the night before, "make a cake that looks like ..."

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Ah a true Minecraft player. :)

@David: Has M already encountered Herobrine? :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda Being a responsible parent I have no idea what he has encountered on his machine:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle LOL

And you leave him unattended with a PC with emacs installed? How dangerous. :)

Gonzalo Medina

@egreg Congratulations!

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda It's OK: I made sure there was no vim first.

Paulo Cereda

16:50

@DavidCarlisle :)

egreg

@GonzaloMedina I'm waiting for you in the new club!

Gonzalo Medina

@egreg You'll be the only member for some months, though...

Please don't touch

@DavidCarlisle: How can I move to the version dated on July 29 2012 from this tug.org/svn/texlive/trunk/Master/texmf-dist/tex/latex/pstricks/…?

cmhughes

@PauloCereda hey, Paulo! Yes indeed, I'm back in the UK - hoorah!

David Carlisle

@Pleasedon'ttouch just copy the files to your current directory I would guess

Please don't touch

16:55

@DavidCarlisle No I mean, how can I locate the old version from the link I gave above?

Paulo Cereda

@cmhughes oh cool! :) Beware of @David, he's quite feral with vim people. :P

cmhughes

@PauloCereda lol :) I'll prepare some defence :) how are you doing? :)

Paulo Cereda

@cmhughes Fine, thanks. :) And you?

Please don't touch

@DavidCarlisle: I think I found it.

David Carlisle

@Pleasedon'ttouch click on the number then revision log gets you to here then pick whichever version you want tug.org/svn/texlive/trunk/Master/texmf-dist/tex/latex/pstricks/…

Please don't touch

16:57

@DavidCarlisle Thanks.

cmhughes

@PauloCereda very well, thanks :) enjoying being able to buy Marmite and Pot Noodles whenever I want :)

David Carlisle

@cmhughes hopefully like being able to answer egreg's questions whenever you want?

Paulo Cereda

@cmhughes ooh! :)

cmhughes

@DavidCarlisle yes, indeed :) does @egreg ask questions now?

David Carlisle

@cmhughes he's asked as many questions as he's eaten pot noodles

cmhughes

17:01

@DavidCarlisle it's brilliant that you know how many pot noodles he has eaten! was it discussed here in the chat room?! :)

Paulo Cereda

@cgnieder: I think it's wise to mention that halt is executed at interpretation time, and not at directive reading time. So, although no more directives will be processed after halt, all of them will be read. :( Not sure if this is a bad thing though. I'm quite reticent to add a hook to the directive discovery process, since the real deal happens later.

David Carlisle

@cmhughes actually I'm worried that my previous statement might be wrong, I know how many questions he's asked, but being Italian and liking spaghetti and all it may be he has pot noodles every night

cmhughes

@DavidCarlisle indeed, indeed. we'll have to wait to find out :)

David Carlisle

cmhughes

@DavidCarlisle looks like my dinner tonight :)

Paulo Cereda

17:09

ooh that's a pot noodle.

Please don't touch

There are rumors that instant noodles can reduce intelligence.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Exactly.

@Pleasedon'ttouch Surely real spaghetti don't. ;-)

Henri Menke

He made it. @egreg got 300k!

Please don't touch

@egreg monosodium glutamate might be the cause. :-)

egreg

@HenriMenke :) It's almost a question of waiting long enough. ;-)

cgnieder

17:33

@PauloCereda I don't think that this is a big deal breaker. As long as halt stops processing I can't think of real disadvantages that later directives have been read

@egreg Congratulations!

egreg

@cgnieder Thanks! It's a very nice party!

percusse

How can someone really avoid her/himself going slapping-berserk in Math.SE?

@egreg Wow. Hats off to you!

egreg

@percusse The number of silly questions is infinitely smaller than the number of silly answers.

percusse

@egreg You must think highly of that place given there are finite answers

egreg

@percusse Seriously, there are great answers. But often the answers are too complete in case of obvious homework, or just silly. I usually try giving hints, when it's possible. In other cases the teacher wins. ;-)

percusse

17:45

@egreg Well first of all, you breaking 300K is much more important :) also my frustration is about the correctness-junkie behavior otherwise every now and then I go back to Arturo's answers :)

Please don't touch

What is the purpose of designing the feature in which low rep users cannot see the deleted posts?

This feature seems to be illogical.

tohecz

@Pleasedon'ttouch this has been brought up so many times before that I don't think anybody is willing to deal with it again.

@Pleasedon'ttouch Just keep keeping 20k rep (it's not so hard for you to get there from 500) and you'll be fine.

Now excuse me, I gotta go ...

Alan Munn

@Pleasedon'ttouch Three reasons I can think of off the top of my head (not that I'm interested in debating this...) 1) you need to have something to keep people interested in gaining more rep. 2) If everyone can see them, then deletion means almost nothing. 3) Having both deleted and undeleted answers might be quite confusing for low rep users. (Of course how low is debatable).

@Pleasedon'ttouch I'm sure there are plenty of meta discussions on the topic...

Please don't touch

@tohecz and @AlanMunn: OK. Thanks.

Floating the update of deleted posts on the questions list might confuse low rep users because nothing seen to be modified to them.

Papiro

18:20

@egreg Congratulations !! 300k ;)

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