English Language Learners

Anonymous

12:00 AM

@DamkerngT. I suspect the writing system influences how Japanese think of their own language.

Anonymous

Just as in English, a lot of us native speakers think we have one "th sound" :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Very likely.

@snailplane Hah!

Anonymous

If you were singing "tatte"

Anonymous

How would you do it? Do re mi, three notes. You can't sing ta t te...

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

12:01 AM

The middle note would be missing! :-)

Damkerng T.

Just pause for a while, perhaps?

Anonymous

So they sing ta, then the middle note is at, then the last note is te

Anonymous

The gemination is still there, but the middle note has some of the vowel from the first note.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

So the gemination is shortened instead of held for an entire mora.

Anonymous

12:02 AM

And the previous vowel is lengthened to more than one mora.

Anonymous

But the whole thing is still three beats... ta at te

Damkerng T.

Perhaps that's the way it has to be.

Otherwise, they would miss the middle note.

Anonymous

Do you know any Thai learners of Japanese?

Damkerng T.

Not personally.

Anonymous

I was thinking it would be relatively easy for Thai speakers to pick up the sounds of Japanese.

Damkerng T.

12:07 AM

I agree.

I personally don't find it too hard.

But when they speak fast, it can be tricky too.

Oh, actually I knew one, several years ago.

Before she went to continue her study in Japan.

Oh, and other two doctors.

who graduated from Japan.

But we've never talked about Japanese. :-)

I remember that she complained about Japanese being hard because of the writing system.

Anonymous

I wonder if the cognate words and morphemes via Chinese would be helpful

Anonymous

The writing system is sadly hard for everyone, including native speakers :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I bet!

I have one friend who don't know anything about Japanese language.

But he's half-Chinese half-Thai.

Practically, he can speak Chinese.

He told me he can play any Japanese games effortlessly.

Anonymous

Well, he can get the gist of them.

Damkerng T.

Because he could read everything. :-)

That's what he told me.

Anonymous

12:11 AM

I can do the same thing with Chinese.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

But the actual language is completely unlike Chinese.

Damkerng T.

So I think he could actually just guess it.

Anonymous

When Japanese borrowed Chinese writing, it wasn't really used to write Japanese as such. Instead, they wrote Chinese, and used a complicated system to transform it into Japanese, substituting Japanese words and morphemes for Chinese, swapping word order around, inserting function words . . .

Anonymous

Eventually this process of writing Japanese as though it were actually Classical Chinese and decoding it into Japanese, along with the interactions with actual Chinese who spoke and read it in Chinese, had a major influence on the Japanese language

Anonymous

12:14 AM

Chinese words and morphemes were borrowed into Japanese with Chinese word order

Anonymous

Earlier when I gave you the example 殺人 satsujin "murder", that was an example of a Sinitic compound--殺 satsu "kill" is the verbal morpheme, and 人 jin "person" is its object

Anonymous

But that's the opposite of Japanese word order, in which 人を殺す hito o korosu → 人殺し hitogoroshi has the object first and the verb last

Damkerng T.

殺 seems like a combination of three characters.

Anonymous

It is a combination of two. Few Chinese characters have three direct constitutents

Anonymous

But often indirectly they contain more than two parts.

Anonymous

12:16 AM

The majority of characters consist of a phonetic portion (giving pronunciation) and a semantic portion (disambiguating the morpheme with that pronunciation from others pronounced the same way)

Anonymous

Depending on how you count, that accounts for 85-90% of characters. Of the remaining characters, some consist of more than two parts, but most do not

Anonymous

But the reason I point out the opposite "word order" above--the Chinese "word order" was borrowed into Japanese as morphology.

Anonymous

殺人 satsujin "murder" in Japanese is not a verb phrase with a verb and an object, but instead a single word

Anonymous

Understanding how the phrases were put together in Classical Chinese is helpful for understanding Japanese morphology, and it can help you figure out what a word means in Japanese. (Sometimes; not always. See the etymological fallacy.)

Anonymous

And since Japanese uses so many words with Sino-Japanese morphemes--and they're relatively productive, by the way, with Japan creating lots of its own "Chinese words" (kango)--a Chinese speaker can see these and understand quite a bit, depending on the material.

Anonymous

12:21 AM

Further, native Japanese words are also often written with kanji, and fluent Chinese readers can often get the meaning by reading these characters.

Anonymous

But they miss out on the huge amount of Japanese morphology that is not indicated by the characters, and on all the function words and so on

Anonymous

So they're missing too much to actually be able to say they understand it.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

So perhaps they've the context to help them understand it.

Anonymous

Yeah, I imagine you could guess an awful lot correctly in some circumstances.

Anonymous

It also depends on how much Sino-Japanese vocabulary is used, which is highly variable according to style. And how much kanji, too--

Anonymous

12:24 AM

If you tried playing a children's game with no kanji, you'd be lost! :-)

Damkerng T.

I see. :-)

I think he enjoys things that called "dating games".

Anonymous

Let me give you a simple example of a sentence consisting of a verb alone. Hashiru "run"

Anonymous

走る and 走らない both contain the kanji for running.

Damkerng T.

I was shocked the first time I saw his collection.

Anonymous

But the second one is negated, although the kanji used are the same :-)

Anonymous

12:26 AM

Hasir-u, hasir-anai

Damkerng T.

They look sort of similar, but they don't.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Those are popular in Japan.

Anonymous

I think they're called ren'ai games.

Damkerng T.

Ah, those poor bees.

Anonymous

As I understand it, they're mostly targeted toward males, and a large number of them have "ecchi" content (not suitable for children)

Anonymous

12:27 AM

But they've made some dating games targeted toward girls, too.

Damkerng T.

I guess he had (has?) the first kind.

I don't know if he still has them. :-)

He should quit them when he got his daughter.

Anonymous

Hah.

Anonymous

I think those sorts of games might have a certain reputation. I'm not sure.

Damkerng T.

Oh, one of his nieces might get influenced.

Anonymous

Uh oh :-)

Damkerng T.

12:30 AM

The niece is now a mangaka in Japan. :-)

Some years ago, he showed me his artworks, and they're really great.

Anonymous

Oh! :-)

Anonymous

Her?

Anonymous

Or is he an artist too?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I used the wrong word.

Anonymous

Nephew?

Damkerng T.

12:31 AM

I should have said nephew.

Oh, I'm sure that my friend is lousy when it comes to drawing. :-)

Just like me when it comes to singing.

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

I love to draw. I don't do it very much though, because there are other things I'd like to be good at, and I already don't spend enough time practicing those

Anonymous

I do at least practice guitar every day.

Damkerng T.

Ah, that's nice!

Anonymous

And I use Japanese every day, even if I don't always actively study it.

Damkerng T.

12:33 AM

I take it that you mean the bass guitar.

Anonymous

Both.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I started on guitar when I was 8

Anonymous

I didn't get a bass guitar until I was older.

Anonymous

I also have an upright bass :-)

Anonymous

12:34 AM

I don't keep track of which instrument I'm practicing, as long as I spend some time practicing one of them each day.

Damkerng T.

I don't know much about guitar. What kind of guitar did you start at 8?

Classic guitar?

Anonymous

I had a nylon-string guitar at that age. It wasn't full-size.

Anonymous

Guitars can be broadly divided into three categories: classical (with nylon strings), electric (usually solid-body guitars with steel strings), and acoustic / folk guitars (like classical guitars but with more modern design and usually steel strings)

Anonymous

Classical guitar is very popular these days, actually :-)

Anonymous

It's enjoying something of a renaissance thanks to the internet.

Damkerng T.

12:36 AM

Oh, I thought classic and acoustic guitars were the same.

Anonymous

Some people refer to all non-electric guitars as acoustic.

Anonymous

It makes sense. But most guitarists mean non-classical guitars when they say "acoustic", I think

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

For me, it's easiest to just say "nylon-string guitar" or such.

Anonymous

So after a lot of begging, I got my first nylon-string guitar when I was eight.

Damkerng T.

12:38 AM

Yay!

Anonymous

And I got my first full-size guitar when I was ten, though it was too big for me at the time.

Damkerng T.

(imagine a little girl playing her guitar. :-)

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

It doesn't take brute strength or physical size. A lot of people who try guitar feel like it does, like it takes a lot of finger or arm strength

Anonymous

But a little girl can play barre chords if she uses the right body mechanics

Anonymous

12:39 AM

And a grown man can struggle with them if he tries to do them the wrong way.

Damkerng T.

Yes. I think it's the same to badminton.

Anonymous

Oh, badminton! :-) That's a fun game.

Damkerng T.

Doing it right is better than doing it hard.

Anonymous

It was always my favorite in school.

Damkerng T.

Hah! You know it!

Anonymous

12:41 AM

Luckily, I had a guitar teacher at that age.

Anonymous

I think it's pretty popular to teach yourself guitar these days.

Anonymous

(I don't know. Maybe it always was?)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps.

YouTube just makes it more obvious.

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

Maybe so.

Anonymous

12:42 AM

Oh, I also took violin and viola lessons.

Anonymous

Mostly viola.

Anonymous

(but they're really very similar instruments)

Anonymous

I took ten years of viola lessons.

Damkerng T.

viola is a mini-violin, right?

Anonymous

Viola is an instrument like a violin, but it's a bit bigger.

Damkerng T.

12:43 AM

Oh, it's the opposite.

Anonymous

Remove the highest sounding string (the E string) and add a lower string (a C string)

Anonymous

So viola is C-G-D-A compared to G-D-A-E for violin.

Damkerng T.

Just like those spoon-thingies, they are all violin-thingies to me. :-)

Anonymous

The instrument is different in subtler ways, like the shape of the bridge and the bow

Anonymous

But the biggest difference is in the tone it produces, a deeper, richer tone than a violin

Anonymous

12:45 AM

The next bigger instrument is the cello, which is one of those big ones you sit behind.

Damkerng T.

Oh, cello! There's something about cello.

Anonymous

Cello:

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

Cello reminds me of something sad, or at least bitter sweet.

Anonymous

There are a bunch of differences in the instruments themselves besides just their size. But what matters most is the sound, and how the music makes you feel.

Anonymous

12:48 AM

The cello is an amazing instrument for bittersweet.

Anonymous

I've always wanted to learn to play cello, but I never have. Violin, viola, and bass, but not cello...

Damkerng T.

Lately, Ukulele is also popular.

Anonymous

Oh, yes!

Anonymous

They're neat. I love all chordophones :-)

Damkerng T.

I don't know why. It seemed like it came out of nowhere. :-)

Anonymous

12:52 AM

Again, I blame the internet! :-)

Damkerng T.

^^

Anonymous

By the way, that's a commonly misspelled word.

Anonymous

Wait.

Damkerng T.

Which one?

Anonymous

Wikipedia claims that ukelele is the British English spelling.

Damkerng T.

12:54 AM

Oh!

I think it's something Hawaiian.

Anonymous

The OED just says "also ukelele".

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

Originally, it's ukulele, just as you spelled it.

Damkerng T.

I think that's what we call it here.

Hmm...

Anonymous

Though the pronunciation is slightly different. Instead of the initial glide, it starts from a glottal plosive.

Damkerng T.

12:55 AM

Probably some might call it Ukelele too.

Anonymous

It's pronounced almost like it's Japanese, I think.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Except that the Hawaiian L is different.

Damkerng T.

Hawaiian words always sound like Japanese to me.

Is Wiki wiki Hawaiian?

Anonymous

I remember reading that it was.

Damkerng T.

12:57 AM

> coined by programmer Ward Cunningham (1949–), from Hawaiian wiki-wiki ‘quick-quick.’

Anonymous

I don't really know much about Hawaiian pronunciation, except that I pronounce it like Japanese with a different L, and that it has a bunch of glottal stops.

Anonymous

Like in Hawai'i, where ' indicates a glottal consonant.

Anonymous

Yeah, for the c2 wiki, I think.

Anonymous

That's the original wiki.

Damkerng T.

I think they call it the Mother Wiki. :-)

Anonymous

12:58 AM

Oh, I didn't know that

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, but that's what I remember.

Anonymous

By the way, I'm listening to that Youtube video I linked earlier.

Anonymous

The Larghetto is my favorite movement.

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

And it is now nearing the end

Anonymous

1:00 AM

I think it wasn't originally supposed to be the final movement

Anonymous

Of course, it wasn't originally for cello, either :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Anonymous

The composer wrote it for piano and violin.

Damkerng T.

Do you listen to Japanese music too?

Anonymous

I do.

Anonymous

1:02 AM

I've found that music is really good for learning bits of vocabulary

Damkerng T.

Any song in particular?

Anonymous

Oh... Hmm.

Anonymous

I like a lot of 椎名林檎's songs

Anonymous

I found a new band recently I really like

Anonymous

Called school food punishment

Anonymous

1:03 AM

►

Anonymous

You'll notice her phonology in singing is quite a bit different from that of Standard Japanese

Damkerng T.

@snailplane What did they have for the children?!

@snailplane I couldn't tell that much, I just thought that it might be because of the music style.

Anonymous

In the slow part where she sings clearly, it sounds very normal (and very clearly enunciated) to me

Anonymous

But in the parts that are a little closer to rapping in style, I notice more departures

Anonymous

It's still very clear in any case.

Anonymous

1:06 AM

Actually, a lot of Japanese music is very clearly enunciated and carefully sung.

Anonymous

It seems to be much more popularly to pronounce things clearly in Japanese singing than in American singing, where Nirvana popularized the mumbled half-delivery

Anonymous

There are Japanese singers I can't understand at all, though.

Damkerng T.

Oh, maybe those songs that Japanese singers sing in English perhaps. :-)

Anonymous

Haha! Actually, it's usually clear right away when a Japanese singer is singing in English, even if it isn't intelligible as English, because the sounds are very different from native Japanese or Sino-Japanese words

Damkerng T.

In some thematic songs, it took me a long while before I could figure out what words did they just sing. :-)

Anonymous

1:09 AM

Oh, Chara's Hikari to Watashi is no longer available on Youtube, so I can't link you to it.

Anonymous

I used to read along with the lyrics and struggle so much to tell what she was singing

Anonymous

I asked a native speaker friend if she had some sort of accent

Damkerng T.

Is Hikari to Watashi the same as Watashi no Hikari?

Anonymous

And my friend said she couldn't tell anything that she was singing, either :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

1:10 AM

To is more like "with, and"

Anonymous

Hikari and me

Anonymous

Hikari means light, but it's also a name. I forget whether it's used as a noun or a name in that song

Anonymous

So I just assumed a name

Damkerng T.

Inspired by some anime, I came to like this song.

►

This version is also nice and it comes with subtitle too!

►

Anonymous

What anime is that from?

Anonymous

1:24 AM

Most of the Japanese music I listen to isn't from anime, but I like some anime music, too

Damkerng T.

I know that two anime use it.

One is K-On. The other is Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Anonymous

I always think of music as being "from" anime. It's always weird when you know a song and then it gets used in a TV show.

Anonymous

Because then it never feels like the song belongs to it.

Anonymous

When does K-On! use that song?

Anonymous

I've seen some of K-On! I love that show! :-)

Damkerng T.

1:26 AM

Iirc, K-On! 1.

But it's speedy version.

►

Ah, I guess you must love watching K-On.

It's about a music club, right?

Anonymous

Was it in the show itself, or was it on one of those albums they've made for the show?

Damkerng T.

According to a blog I've read, it seems so. Though I didn't watch it myself.

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

Yes, it's about a music club. :-)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps at the end of the series.

Anonymous

1:29 AM

It's a very cute show.

Anonymous

The Japanese is usually fairly easy to hear and understand, too. Although some of the jokes might be a bit obscure and some of the slang / contractions might be the sort of thing you don't normally learn early on

Anonymous

But overall it's a good easy show for listening practice :-)

Damkerng T.

They look indeed cute, with those big round eyes. :-)

Anonymous

For some reason, most students of Japanese aren't taught how words / phrases reduce in Japanese, which makes it hard for them to understand colloquial Japanese.

Damkerng T.

The b in kanau naraba sounds like p= more than b.

Anonymous

1:51 AM

I'm glad there are superscript ˭ and ʰ in Unicode, since we can't actually use superscript in here.

Anonymous

2^4

Anonymous

Aw, I thought it might turn into superscript. :-)

Damkerng T.

^^

1

Q: missing commas between coordinate adjectives?

to reach a mutually-agreed long-term comprehensive solution that would ensure Iranˈs nuclear program will be exclusively peaceful. As I see, in the noun phrase a mutually-agreed long-term comprehensive solution, all the three adjectives describing the head noun are coordinate. Then, shouldn'...

Have you seen this one yet?

> ... to reach a mutually-agreed long-term comprehensive solution that would ensure Iranˈs nuclear program will be exclusively peaceful.

It's obviously a noun pile.

Anonymous

In what sense is it a noun pile?

Damkerng T.

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/index.php?s=%22noun+pile%22

Anonymous

1:56 AM

I know what a noun pile is. In what sense is it a noun pile?

Damkerng T.

a comprehensive solution that is mutually-agreed in long-term.

So I don't think that we really need commas here.

But I might be wrong.

Anonymous

Long-term is an adjective, derived from an attributive noun phrase containing a head noun and an adjective. Mutually-agreed is an adjective phrase containing an adverb. Comprehensive is an adjective.

Anonymous

Adjective adjective adjective noun.

Anonymous

Can't have a noun pile with just one noun :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh!

I think of long-term as a quick fix from "a long term".

Just like one described in mikepope.com/blog/DisplayBlog.aspx?permalink=2292

A quick fix of data bound control table row action links is data-bound control-table row-action links.

But I see your point.

And now lack of a good term to describe it.

(I though of what you call "noun pile" as a "noun stack".)

But one thing is sure, it a big long string of noun phrase.

Anonymous

2:02 AM

Yes, it is a noun phrase.

Damkerng T.

Or a noun phrase that happens to be created from a long string of words. :-)

Anonymous

Yes, it is a long noun phrase. :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, a long noun phrase is concise enough.

The problem is, do we really need the commas?

Anonymous

Need? I don't think so.

Anonymous

I think the commas force the coordination interpretation

Anonymous

2:04 AM

And without them, both coordination and nesting are possible interpretations

Damkerng T.

I think it's hard for non-native speakers to know when they can and when they cannot be coordinate adjectives.

Anonymous

I don't think native speakers are typically aware of the distinction between coordinate and nested attributive modifiers

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Then how could they use these noun phrases properly?

Anonymous

Native speakers use lots of things they can't explain and are broadly unaware of. :-)

Damkerng T.

That's okay. But I mean, they know when they need commas and when they don't, perhaps?

Anonymous

2:10 AM

I think lots of native speakers don't really know when they should put commas in.

Anonymous

> In a powerful, fuel-injected engine, engine is modified by a coordination of adjectives, giving the meaning "engine that is both powerful and has fuel injection".

Anonymous

> In a powerful fuel-injected engine, by contrast, there are two layers of modification: engine is modified by fuel-injected to form the nominal fuel-injected engine, and this is in turn modified by powerful, allowing a somewhat different interpretation, "engine that is powerful by the standards applicable to fuel-injected ones".

Anonymous

(from CGEL)

Anonymous

It says it allows that interpretation, but I don't think you're forced to interpret it that way

Anonymous

I think the comma forces you to interpret it as coordination, ruling out that interpretation

Anonymous

2:11 AM

But the comma is optional, so removing it allows a different interpretation--but it also allows the same interpretation

Damkerng T.

In technical writing, commas for coordination of adjectives can perhaps reduce the readability.

Anonymous

With commas, a great deal of latitude is allowed in deciding whether or not to include them

Anonymous

You can have a very light style or a fairly heavy style

Anonymous

You have to use your judgment to decide what communicates most effectively without distracting the reader.

Damkerng T.

When the OP said: Links for further study are most welcomed, I don't know if we have such thing on the web.

Anonymous

2:15 AM

(Some people mechanically apply house styles to decide comma use, but this is less effective in my opinion, and is occasionally rather counterproductive...)

Damkerng T.

"house styles"?

Anonymous

Oh, like a publishing house. It can have its own set of style guidelines

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1311

Maulik V

6:11 AM

ed.gov/oii-news/use-technology-teaching-and-learning

Technology ushers in fundamental structural changes that can be integral to achieving significant improvements in productivity - This is what I've been asking all!

Anonymous

6:36 AM

Asking when? Where?

Anonymous

Is there something in particular you're asking about it?

Maulik V

Hey ...hi

yes, I've been asking (not on ELL but I had put this question I guess)

to and gerund

at times, even MS Word advises the same

to achieve for instance will be replaced by to achieving

Anonymous

[ achieving significant improvements in productivity ] is a gerund phrase, which is a type of noun phrase

Maulik V

Oh...I see

but then all can go like that

Anonymous

"My husband was integral to [ my success ]."

Maulik V

6:41 AM

I'm unable to walking for that long distance from my house

Anonymous

See, it's a noun phrase.

Anonymous

Nothing special there.

Anonymous

Your example is wrong, though.

Anonymous

Don't mix up to the preposition with to the infinitive marker.

Anonymous

I'm unable to <infinitive>

Anonymous

6:43 AM

... is integral to <noun phrase>

Maulik V

Yes, getting it...

Anonymous

The to in each is different.

Maulik V

Is there any simple way to identify this? I mean a noun phrase

gerund phrase?

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