English Language Learners

> Tom Bell, DTE, President of ITEEA, urged members in his President's Message (2011) to use professional development to increase the teaching of engineering concepts.

Maulik V

infinitive and preposition

Damkerng T.

10:00 AM

When teaching is used like this, I think you won't get confused.

Perhaps the to before -ing verb confuses you.

Maulik V

Exactly

At times, my MS Word changes to [simple verb] to to [-ing]

Damkerng T.

Hah!

(I don't use MS Word, so I don't know how well it can do that.)

> When it comes to hunting packs and carry-all vests, manufacturers typically put a premium on providing hunters with a million pockets and compartments while skimping on the one feature that matters most: ...

Maulik V

But as stated from the US site, I encounter several such examples every week

'hunting' still makes sense in this example

Damkerng T.

> Not all public land is open to hunting.

Maulik V

yes....that's what I told in my second example...

No physical exercise comes close to running

right?

Damkerng T.

10:04 AM

Yes.

comes close to run wouldn't make any sense.

Maulik V

I am clear about it...as I said...

running, hunting, hearing....they all make sense as noun

Technology ushers in fundamental structural changes that can be integral to achieve significant improvements in productivity

this pisses me off!

Okay, let's take this way

Some of the constitutional rights are to betting the society.

is this correct?

bettering*

Damkerng T.

Sounds off.

Maulik V

But trust me, such usage I have read many where!

Damkerng T.

I expect a noun after are.

Maulik V

to bettering the society

Damkerng T.

10:07 AM

Okay, let's look it up.

Maulik V

to walking down the street?

I was unable to walking down the street?

Damkerng T.

I couldn't find one that matches your example.

Maulik V

I was not able to getting up and walk by myself?

Ah, I din' mean word-to-word!

I said I have read such examples

Damkerng T.

I was unable to walk ...

@MaulikV That's exactly why we need context.

Maulik V

uhmm

Damkerng T.

10:09 AM

Because copying part of a sentence and plug it into another sentence could change the meaning and the usage too.

For example, here is my first hit of bettering...

> ... professional and community service accolades which reveal his dedication to bettering the society in which he lived.

Maulik V

I mean the straightforward question is - does infinitive to takes -ing in gerund?

Damkerng T.

It needs bettering because it's after dedication to.

Maulik V

let me study that...

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV What do you mean by your "infinitive to takes -ing in gerund"?

Maulik V

Crystal said...

don't mix up infinitive to and preposition to

that confuses you (me).

Damkerng T.

10:11 AM

She's absolution right!

See that dedication to bettering for example.

Maulik V

Is Crystal She?

Damkerng T.

That's not an infinitive with to.

Yes, she said so.

Maulik V

OMG! ;P that's news!

Though it does not affect but then do you feel what I feel?

I thought he's a guy!

:)

Damkerng T.

^^

Maulik V

haha....so so...different!

Damkerng T.

10:14 AM

I also thought she was a he before.

Maulik V

of course...

The way he...oops she talks...I imagined his///her picture...

that's what we do when we chat with someone

especially when yo udon't have picture of that person

Damkerng T.

Until I talked about something that perhaps should have been discussed only among men, and I got a little strange feeling.

Maulik V

like I have imagined your pic as well!

Damkerng T.

I see. I see.

Maulik V

I'll be careful now on!

:)

Damkerng T.

10:15 AM

I like to act a little silly sometimes in chat rooms. It's fun.

Maulik V

Thanks for this big news ...haha

Yeah...like Knock! Knock!

;)

Damkerng T.

Yup.

:D

Perhaps this might help.

Maulik V

Yeah, so coming back to that... is the key lies in 'infinitive' to and 'preposition' to?

Damkerng T.

I believe that you've read a lot, so you should have enough instinct.

I mean if you've seen a noun there before, probably you'd need a gerund.

Maulik V

Yeah..yeah...I'll find out by any means

Damkerng T.

10:18 AM

> I would like to dedicate this to my father.

Maulik V

yes....

Damkerng T.

> This act reveals his dedication to bettering the society.

Maulik V

Ah, getting clear

Damkerng T.

But if you don't feel right when you put a noun there, probably you don't need a gerund.

> *He was unable to David.

Absolutely wrong.

So it should be: He was unable to speak.

Not He was unable to speaking.

Maulik V

That's good one

Yup!

Damkerng T.

10:21 AM

This helps me I think 90% of the time.

There are still some cases that can be really tricky, but they're rare.

Really rare, I guess. :-)

Maulik V

@DamkerngT. This way only...can you come up with a short example?

Damkerng T.

You mean more of unable to speaking?

Maulik V

yes...

Damkerng T.

Let's see...

Maulik V

where I feel right when I put a noun there...probably I need gerund...that way

Damkerng T.

10:23 AM

Oh, you mean the cases that we should put a gerund in them.

Maulik V

yes

He was unable to David is clear

now what about gerund

in a similar way?

Damkerng T.

> A guide to [plan|planning] and [support|supporting] for individuals who are deafblind ...

Maulik V

A guide to planning and supporting for individuals who are deafblind?

Damkerng T.

Close. :-)

Maulik V

Aha...hhmm

Damkerng T.

10:25 AM

The original sentence was planning and support.

Maulik V

Ehhh..

This needs reading, man!

Damkerng T.

I guess they can use support as a noun.

And though plan can be a noun too, they wanted to say planning.

To mean "an act to plan".

Don't worry. That one is tricky.

> It's easy to tune into something else, but if you're in the parking lot, you're committed to [listen|listening].

Maulik V

listening!

Damkerng T.

Yeah! You got it.

Maulik V

Yipee!

Do let me know if you find any reference for the same

Damkerng T.

10:29 AM

I think Swan discusses it too.

Maulik V

Aha, then I'll come to that topic anyway

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure how many entries are involved.

But perhaps you might want to check out entry 299.

Maulik V

OMG! You remember that too?

Damkerng T.

And 207.

I think the topic was spread into many entries.

Maulik V

You remember entry numbers???

Damkerng T.

10:32 AM

No, I just looked it up.

Maulik V

Ah, saved!

Damkerng T.

I like Swan's because of its indexing system.

Gotta go now. BBL

By the way, I think Swan tries to avoid saying "gerund".

He simplifies the concept, and just says the "-ing" form.

Maulik V

sure..cya

Laure

11:23 AM

@StoneyB: would "Fay ce que vouldras" (en ancien français dans le texte!) be used in English and if so how widely understood by the average English speaking native? And would the allusion to Rabelais be recognized?

Damkerng T.

Hello @Laure!

I can guess Rabelais, but what does "Fay ce que vouldras" mean?

("From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" sounds a little too long for something in just 4 words, I mean.)

StoneyB

12:00 PM

@Laure Well, you recognized it! ... The wonderful thing about writing on the internet is that you can flatter your readers by assuming that they are highly educated and get the most abstruse literary allusions -- because if they don't get it, they can look it up without anybody knowing! --and thus they become highly educated.

@DamkerngT. "Do what thou wilt" is the traditional English translation, which preserves the 16th-century diction. "Do what you please" or "Do whatever you want" would be the equivalent today.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Thank you!

I think it sounds quite like "whatever floats your boat", doesn't it?

StoneyB

Here's the source, from Rabelais' description of the Abbey of Thélème: All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. ...

None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed, Do what thou wilt"; ...

because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour.

Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us.

from Gargantua and Pantagruel

@Laure (And for that matter, how many these days will recognize Karl Marx?)

Laure

12:18 PM

@StoneyB Which doesn't mean every French native would. And I must admit you would not have used Old French I doubt I'd have thought of Rabelais straight away. Actually you're not answering my question about the "average English speaking native", just to give me an idea...

@DamkerngT. Hello! StoneyB explained. I asked because he used it in his superb answer on meta.

@StoneyB Depends on where and who I suppose. I expect here (in France) more would recognize Marx than in the US.

StoneyB

@Laure: Well, what's "average"? Fay ce que vouldras is, I should guess, the most famous French literary quotation in English; I think most people who graduated from college with a degree in the humanities would know it. ... And anybody who follows 'occult' literature, too: Aleister Crowley adopted it as the motto of the Order of the Golden Dawn, and christened his Sicilian villa the Abbey of Thelema.

Actually, I think most Americans would recognize "From each ...", but they might not know it was Marx. I belong to the "counter-culture" generation, when a lot of early Marx was common reading. I don't even remember what that quote comes from.

Laure

@StoneyB Thanks, that gives me a fair idea. The most famous French literary quotation, that's quite astonishing.

@StoneyB Guess we might be about the same age... but don't ask, never ask a lady her age, that must be international etiquette!

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Mmm... "Whatever floats your boat" tends to be used dismissively, like "chacun a son gout" (there we go into French again...Laure, I apologize for the orthography, I can't remember where the ^ goes) - it means more or less, "your taste, not mine". Shaw theorized that Shakespeare's title As You Like It was meant the same way: this is the sort of rubbish you like, not me.

@Laure Fersher. All ladies are presumed to be agelessly beautiful. Another advantage of the internet!

Laure

@StoneyB goût

StoneyB

Of course. gusta.

Laure

12:33 PM

But difficult to get accents on a us keyboard

StoneyB

I don't even try. I've got the MS character map on my start bar.

It's gotten heavy use tonight. I've been up all night writing about ω-3 oils and α-linolenic acid for a client in the food oils business.

Laure

Now you're talking chemistry, that's quite a foreign language to me. early afternoon here. But have to go, bye

StoneyB

Adieu!

And I too have to go, DT -- time to go make a token appearance at the office. Bah!

Damkerng T.

2:34 PM

Thank you both @Laure and @StoneyB.

Theta30

2:45 PM

Discovery of the day: final "e" is now always silent, e.g. epitome, catastrophe

Damkerng T.

Huh?

catastrophe too?

Oh, you're just kidding.

Theta30

yes :)

catastrophe has stress on the first syllable

Damkerng T.

The rules are interesting, but as many other rules about any language, they're not quite absolute. I mean they cannot.

Or else the rules must be extremely long.

:D

Theta30

Hmm

Damkerng T.

I used to pronounce epitome incorrectly before, so I couldn't tell it right away. Must think about it for a while. :-)

Theta30

2:55 PM

Rule 1 in my profile "The language has rules. These might be obscure or not, but the language is inherently governed by rules. A linguist might study a foreign language based on deeper knowledge than a non-linguist. It is up to someone to embrace deeper rules of language"

In other words I think there are inherent rules of English out there

Damkerng T.

Sure there are rules.

What I mean is that it's extremely difficult to write the rules precisely and comprehensively.

Theta30

so the silent last final "e" is a rule, except there are exceptions:epitome, catastrophe that are governed by other rules :)

Damkerng T.

Like, there are always some exceptions here and there.

Something like that, perhaps. :-)

Theta30

My Thai friend confirms he speaks Teochew dialect

Damkerng T.

The pronunciations of Teochew and Mandarin dialects are not quite the same.

Theta30

3:05 PM

you learn a thing every day

Damkerng T.

Everyone does. :-)

Maybe.

Theta30

even cats or animals learn and do not forget

though not about pronunciation rules

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, my cat seems to be rather silly. :-)

Theta30

things like someone is mean with them

:)

Damkerng T.

I think we pick up things that important to us quite well in general.

hellodear2

3:22 PM

hey!! Hellodear2 is here with you live chatting with you.....

I love my fans!!

Yayy!!

If anyone wants autograph, please don't fight.....

I will be there with you only...

Damkerng T.

Haha.

hellodear2

:0

Why laughing? :-)

Damkerng T.

It sounds like you are trying to sell your autographs or something. :-)

hellodear2

haha

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's a good idea to have one.

hellodear2

3:32 PM

:D

Damkerng T.

You might be a superstar some day.

hellodear2

I confuse his or her a lot.

Damkerng T.

Hindi has no such thing, I guess.

hellodear2

Yes, But I have to do a lot of hard work

for becoming a super star.

Damkerng T.

I think I've heard someone complained that before, not sure they're Hindi too.

Superstar already is a Thai word. :-)

hellodear2

3:34 PM

Like when I am talking, although I know it very well, I confuse them a lot.

Damkerng T.

We pronounce it sup-tar.

hellodear2

I say her to a boy

and I say him to a girl

:'(

Damkerng T.

It needs practice.

hellodear2

Although, I know it very well.

Damkerng T.

Confusion is normal, it happens to every learner.

hellodear2

3:35 PM

I can't make this type of mistake while writing.

Damkerng T.

Ah, this comes back to our discussion yesterday.

@hellodear2 I usually make different kinds of errors in speaking and writing.

Some are related. Some aren't.

hellodear2

Yeah!!

Where were we yesterday

Please tell that thing.

Damkerng T.

Do you still want to try it?

hellodear2

Why not?

Why shouldn't I?

Damkerng T.

Okay, then promise me two things.

hellodear2

3:43 PM

What?

Sure.

Damkerng T.

1) Give yourself at least 1 hour a day. (2 hours is better, if you want to improve fast.) It gonna take about 10 weeks. Don't quit before 4 weeks. No question.

hellodear2

hmm.

This one is done.

from my side at least.

Damkerng T.

2) Once you are good. Don't use it the wrong way. (Like bullying others.) Use it for good.

hellodear2

:') Wow.

You have hiked your own respect in my eyes.

:-)

Damkerng T.

You didn't promise me yet. :-)

hellodear2

3:46 PM

I promise you.

both these promises.

Good!

I will keep them.

Then, we can start.

Yeah!

For the first two weeks. Don't read anything about grammar.

hellodear2

3:47 PM

Okay.

Damkerng T.

We need to focus on listening.

hellodear2

hmm.

Damkerng T.

And pronunciation. :-)

hellodear2

Yup.

Damkerng T.

What kind of recording device do you have?

(Sound only is okay, video is not needed.)

hellodear2

3:48 PM

I have phone through which I can record, I have video cam, I have microphone for recording my songs.

Damkerng T.

Good.

You will need a device that allows you to replay as many times as you need.

hellodear2

No problem.

Damkerng T.

And you can download video clips or record the sound of videos on YouTube, right?

hellodear2

Anytime, anywhere.

Damkerng T.

Good.

Have you every tried singing a foreign song before?

hellodear2

3:51 PM

I am listening "waiting for tonight"

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't know that song. :-)

hellodear2

Singing?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

hellodear2

Jennifer Lopez is the singer of this song.

Damkerng T.

I mean singing.

hellodear2

3:51 PM

No. Never. I never tried.

Damkerng T.

But you've seen someone else did, right?

hellodear2

Yup.

Lady Gaga.

Many.

Damkerng T.

How did they sing?

hellodear2

Means?

Damkerng T.

They sang like themselves, or they tried their best to sound as close to Lady Gaga as possible?

hellodear2

3:53 PM

Yup.

They sang like themselves.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I would like you to try to sound as close to Lady Gaga as possible.

I think you must have seen someone who is good at copying others.

Our first practice is like that.

hellodear2

Cool.

Damkerng T.

Here is what you need.

hellodear2

Intimate

Copying

Damkerng T.

Imitate

Umm... Intimate would mean something else.

hellodear2

3:55 PM

Oops! Yeah! I meant that only.

Damkerng T.

Keep it for your girlfriend. :-)

hellodear2

Imitate.

lolx. I got it now what I have said. Sorry :-) haha....

Damkerng T.

Don't worry. You gave me a good laugh. :-)

Okay, here are what you need for this practice.

hellodear2

Haha. :-p I never tried that. :-)

ok

Damkerng T.

I will change to use the word "drill" instead of practice, okay.

hellodear2

3:56 PM

Okay

Damkerng T.

For our first drill, you need a piece of paper, a pencil (or a pen), and something that allows you to play YouTube clips repeatedly.

And transcribe this song.

►

Do as much as you can, within 20 minutes.

By the way, it's not an English song.

So don't worry about the words.

Transcribe the sound anyway you can understand, okay?

hellodear2

In which laguage is it?

Damkerng T.

Don't tell.

^^

hellodear2

:-)

Damkerng T.

That's the key.

And don't look up its lyric on the web.

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