English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

19:00

Feb 25 at 2:11, by Robusto

@ina — Neither. I'm American. The character 夢　「ゆめ」(yume) that makes up my Gravatar means "dream" in Japanese.

Jez

oh

Kit

1

A: Is EL&U succeeding?

I think the site is wonderful and fun, but there are some gaps that could make it more successful. You have brought up some good questions, and they deserve some discussion. I think we should prioritize our efforts based on maximal effectiveness. To that end, I would suggest this order: 1. Deci...

There, that's my two bits.

(I'm a big spender.)

Robusto

@psmears — FWIW you've been an invaluable addition to this site. I would view your departure as one sign of the apocalypse.

rest_day

@MrHen and others... In your answer, you asked 'Are we attracting the right kind of new users?' As a community, do we have a consensus on who is right kind of user?

psmears

@Robusto You're too kind. And I would certainly say the same about you.

@rest_day Indeed - is there just one kind of user that's right?

OghmaOsiris

19:10

@rest_day I thought the purpose of this and any SE site was to get professionals to answer non-professional users' questions.

But that seems to not be the case.

Rebecca Chernoff

@psmears I think Jeff took action because he perceived a consistent lack of action. (I'm not judging whether or not that was true). I think the reaction shows the community cares about the site to take action, so I don't think the same situation would occur again. </2 cents>

Kit

@psmears I understand your feelings; I don't want our actions to make Jeff feel justified either. If we resolve our own personal feelings about how the site is run by agreeing on what we do here to manage the site as a community, I think we will have a much better time of it should he decide to stir up trouble again.

Robusto

@RebeccaChernoff — This is invalid HTML. You forgot to open the <2 cents> tag.

Rebecca Chernoff

hrmph q:

Michael Myers

@Robusto It wouldn't even be valid XML then. You can't start a tag with a digit.

OghmaOsiris

19:16

So, is there a consensus? Was my original assumption correcT?

Kit

@MichaelMyers Oh, snap!

rest_day

So unless the community and others agree on what the site is and who it should cater to, issues like this might happen again.

Rebecca Chernoff

If the community can't agree on what the site is and who its audience is...that's bad. ):

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff That's gets at exactly what I bring up in the answer I gave to MrHen's meta question.

We don't have a clear means of arriving at a consensus.

We can discuss to our hearts' content on meta, but then what?

OghmaOsiris

@Kit I have had similar frustrations with this... I previously asked if something was on topic, I got the go ahead to ask the question, then the question got closed as off topic.

rest_day

19:20

@RebeccaChernoff also, AFAIK, community has a consensus. It is just that it is not what superpowers (for want of a better word) want it to be

Kit

@OghmaOsiris Yes, and that's upsetting and disorganized, both of which I find off-putting.

Rebecca Chernoff

@OghmaOsiris The community needs to enforce (whether that is voting to close, voting to reopen, etc).

psmears

@RebeccaChernoff Thanks for that... I have total confidence that the community cares about the site, and indeed that it was taking action (whether that was noticed or not). My concern is that, if any lack of action is perceived in the future (again, justified or not) - will the belief be that the community needs another good kicking? (I know you can't answer this... I'm just saying how I feel...)

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff But the meta community said ok, and the main community said not ok.

It's inconsistent.

Rebecca Chernoff

Then the meta community should comment and point people at the meta discussions.

Your meta site is like the town hall

OghmaOsiris

19:22

And what's even more frustrating, I keep hearing that this site is for professionals... so since I'm not a linguist, am I not supposed to ask questions?

Rebecca Chernoff

the city court

OghmaOsiris

And that logic could go for any of the SE sites... I'm not a mathematician, so am I not allowed to ask on Math about my homework troubles? I don't write Science Fiction, so is it not kosher for me to give my <2 cents> there?

</2cents>

Rebecca Chernoff

@OghmaOsiris In general yeah, you'll see this across the board. But many faqs mention "enthusiasts"

OghmaOsiris

etc etc

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff I agree, but this will only work if the community agrees, and there still is no way to arrive at a consensus.

Therefore, we cannot agree.

Therefore the site remains inconsistent.

Rebecca Chernoff

19:26

We name for the professionals. You can ask a professional question without being a professional. (Does that make sense? |:)

MrHen

@rest_day I think that is one of the excellent questions we need to address.

Rebecca Chernoff

@Kit sure there is, voting.

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff How long is a meta question open for voting before it is decided?

When does the actual change take place?

How is the change communicated to users?

OghmaOsiris

@RebeccaChernoff Ok, so then wouldn't that make it so no one other than proffessors or linguists are allowed to ask and answer questions... Which would make the site not very productive if no random user could ask a question...

rest_day

@MrHen Sure. that seems to be the base of most of the issues here

Rebecca Chernoff

19:28

I don't think time is the driving factor. I think it is more dependent on if there is a clear direction in where the votes are going.

@OghmaOsiris read my next line after that...

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff Ok, but how do we know when it's decided?

MrHen

@rest_day I wholeheartedly agree.

OghmaOsiris

I don't understand that line, lol.

Rebecca Chernoff

by accepting an answer. by putting it in the faq. by acting on it on the main site. by commenting on posts when it isn't followed to teach the community.

Grace Note

@Kit I'll tell you from experience, this is not always the case.

(Also, hi all ♪)

Rebecca Chernoff

19:29

Teach the community.

They will pick up on cues that you provide.

Kit

14

Q: Are questions about ununderstood English-language jokes on-topic?

In a song video made by an American acquaintance, there is a joke that I don't understand. I am not a native speaker, and I guess most English speakers would understand what makes his joke funny. Is it on-topic to ask what is the meaning of his play on words? As asked by Jeff Parker, here is...

Rebecca Chernoff

Guiding comments are so incredibly important.

Kit

And when the community decides and is ignored?

2

Grace Note

@Kit Don't make it out of voting. Do what the word you've picked means: "decide".

Kit

And what if the meta user never accepts an answer?

Grace Note

19:31

@Kit Also don't consider any decision super-ultra-final would be my suggestion, but there's other things at play here than simply that, so I won't get into that.

OghmaOsiris

You know the funny thing is, when I asked my meta question about if I could ask a question a certain question... the person that gave me the go ahead to ask was also one of the people that voted it to be closed.

Rebecca Chernoff

that's... headdesk

were there comments? pointing to the meta discussion?

rest_day

@MrHen why don't we try to reach that consensus then plus an assurance from 'superpowers' that community decisions will be honoured.

Grace Note

Don't dwell on some kind of unanimous consensus. Gaming is infamous for our ability to fail to reach any kind of consensus, but we still churn forward with policies as needed.

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff Ok, forget that can of worms. My point is that the meta process is murky at best and needs improvement.

OghmaOsiris

19:33

@RebeccaChernoff No.. Just a bunch of uncommented downvotes and then it got closed.

Rebecca Chernoff

did you comment pointing to the meta discussion? (:

OghmaOsiris

@RebeccaChernoff No, at that point when I was a user, I thought the moderators would have seen it on meta.

Grace Note

@Kit Develop the Meta process of your own. This is your community, after all. Use Meta to have your discussions, to see what focus points there are, to see what does or does not need looking at. How to come to a decision can be obtained by rationalization, not by relying on systemic or mechanical cues.

OghmaOsiris

@RebeccaChernoff This was a few months ago.

psmears

@GraceNote Thanks for popping in. BTW there is not a perceived issue about coming to consensus within the community - usually that happens much more smoothly here than I've seen on other sites!

Rebecca Chernoff

19:35

@OghmaOsiris Ah, well I dunno. Chalk it up to we're dealing with humans and humans aren't perfect I suppose. |:

Robusto

@GraceNote — We have heard the "this is your community, after all" argument quite a lot lately. The issue is the cognitive dissonance that arises from actual evidence that this is not our community. Words vs. deeds.

Michael Myers

@OghmaOsiris Your meta question was whether you could ask if a specific phrase was polite, but your actual question was asking for a polite phrase. One is open-ended and the other isn't.

MrHen

@psmears Actually, there is.

Grace Note

@Robusto I think you're reading mine differently than I intend it.

MrHen

At least, I have always felt as such

Rhodri

19:36

(Popping back in since the Transport Stream is now at least a bit tamed)

Robusto

@GraceNote — We like to be careful about words here. We believe they either mean something or they don't.

Rebecca Chernoff

@Rhodri wb

MrHen

@rest_day I'd be happy with a consensus, superpowers be darned

psmears

The issue is more that there is, after, err, "recent events", a lot of uncertainty in the community about what it means when we have reached that decision... i.e. (some of us at least) thought we thought we did have a consensus, and were sticking to it... only for that to be reversed by a bolt from the blue

Kit

@GraceNote You are frustrating me with your fluffy talk.

Rhodri

19:37

@RebeccaChernoff Appreciated. Still not staying.

OghmaOsiris

@MichaelMyers But, it is an example of inconsistancies in moderation. And even if my question was not very good, there was no comments given when the close votes were cast, so any other user could have (including me) been really confused and then still post further questions that were similarly 'bad'

Grace Note

@Kit It's not intended to be fluffy. I'm serious. Everyone keeps saying they were under the impression that they ran the place, that they knew the site better than anyone.

psmears

@Rhodri Good to see you back, not good to hear you don't want to stay!

MrHen

@OghmaOsiris BTW, while your case makes an excellent example of something that went wrong, there isn't much we can do about it now

Rhodri

@OghmaOsiris Not inconsistent at all. You were even given specific advice about questions that you demonstrably didn't follow.

0

Q: A polite way to tell someone "I'm not interested"

Whenever I am faced with a soliciter/someone selling something, I am always really uncomfortable because I can never think of a phrase or something to let the person know that I'm not interested in what they are trying to sell me/get me to sign/ask for a donation/etc. I usually lie and say I alr...

phrase-requests

Rebecca Chernoff

19:39

@psmears Things weren't handled as smoothly as I think they could have been. Not saying they were. Fyi, I did link Jeff in hopes that he replies on meta.

Rhodri

4

Q: Is asking a question about the politeness of a phrase on-topic?

I'm looking at the FAQs and I'm trying to see if this has already been answered...Can't find it anywhere. Is asking if a phrase is polite on topic? Wouldn't subjects like this be too subjective to personal opinion on what's polite and what's not polite?

discussion on-topic-off-topic

Kit

@Rhodri But I agree there should have been some constructive comments on the closed question.

OghmaOsiris

The advice I was given on asking a subjective answer was: "Great subjective questions...

1.... inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”.
2.... tend to have long, not short, answers.
3.... have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone.
4.... invite sharing experiences over opinions.
5.... insist that opinion be backed up with facts and references.
6.... are more than just mindless social fun."

Grace Note

So getting back to what I said that @Robusto has questioned, when I talk about acting as a community, I don't mean some kind of liberation front or support rally. What I mean is, pool your understanding.

OghmaOsiris

Which I thought I had followed in my question. No one ever commented or said anything guiding me to ask better questions.

Kit

19:40

@OghmaOsiris And that was poor form on our part, and I'm sorry.

Grace Note

The understanding that you guys, from my reading, have gotten a fairly solid grasp of over this almost-year.

Rebecca Chernoff

@OghmaOsiris So...point in my corner for encouraging guiding comments. q:

I linked this last night, but if anyone hasn't seen it: rallydev.com/agileblog/2011/06/life-in-the-stackexchange-lane

OghmaOsiris

@MrHen I don't really expect anything to be done now... as a matter of fact, I've asked that the question be deleted entirely on meta...

psmears

@RebeccaChernoff Thanks. I know you're probably now all too painfully aware of how we feel! Just trying to give @Grace a far-too-brief sense of what the issues are, to save her from reading days worth of chat logs.

Rhodri

@psmears Thanks. To paraphrase something you said earlier, I do not want to reward behaviour I personally regard as unacceptable. Staying would do that.

Grace Note

19:41

@psmears I got the skimmy from Dwig.

Not to mention, I did spy Jeff's original comment.

Rebecca Chernoff

@Rhodri How does leaving help the site? Leaving says "meh, fine, do it your way". (In my opinion)

Grace Note

Do I recall the specifics? No. Do I understand how much it probably stung because it was probably the heftiest slam Jeff has ever given a site? Yes.

Rebecca Chernoff

Staying doesn't mean you're putting up with it either.

psmears

@Rhodri I am powerless to argue with that - much though I'd like to convince you otherwise!

Grace Note

I'm not here to charge in like Jeff did and assume to know what changes will work best on the community. All I'm here to do is hopefully assist in helping people figure out how they can make their own decisions, since consensus seems to be the issue at fault (for what I'm specifically targetting, not for the problem at whole).

Kit

19:43

@Rhodri Don't let the bullies win. Stay and play with me.

@GraceNote Were you sent?

Grace Note

@Kit Who would send me?

Kit

@GraceNote You tell me.

Robusto

Or we could maybe just ban ourselves for, say, a month, then come back and see what has changed. Actually 40 days. To establish or break a habit, I've heard, takes 40 days. Maybe a 40-day moratorium on EL&U?

Rhodri

@RebeccaChernoff It's on the near end of the spectrum on the far end of which is the ethical question "Should we use Mengele's medical data?" For me (and I accept that bullying is a trigger issue for me that doesn't necessarily apply to others), it's far enough along to get an unequivocal "No." Ergo, using SE is no longer ethical for me.

Grace Note

@Kit I don't know. I figured you'd have an idea in order to come up with the question in the first place. I came here because I like Dwig and Kos.

Kit

19:46

@GraceNote Your phrasing suggested that this was an assignment.

But maybe it is a habit picked up from your day job.

Are you a counselor of some sort by trade?

Rebecca Chernoff

@Rhodri no, bullying isn't good. not disputing that.

Grace Note

@Kit I wouldn't say I've ever been employed as one, but I've been a mediator of many different trades for various periods of time.

Rhodri

@RebeccaChernoff I suppose more to the point, Jeff is going to do it his way. At which point, "meh, do it your way" is merely a truism.

psmears

@GraceNote OK - it's just that (maybe I'm misreading them but) your comments seem to be imply that we have an issue reaching consensus. Which a number of the regulars here have expressed that they don't feel is a big issue - which I think is why your comments are causing a little friction.

I'm not saying that we don't have an issue with reaching consensus - I didn't think we did, but I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise - but I think the advice on how to deal with that problem would go down better afer showing us the evidence that we do have it :-)

Grace Note

@psmears I'm getting a lot of mixed signals because half the people here are saying the exact opposite.

Rebecca Chernoff

19:51

@Rhodri don't give him the opportunity.

Kit

@GraceNote Like me, for instance. I have been quite adamant that this is the root of our issue.

Grace Note

See? ♪

Robusto

Nobody responded to my 40-day moratorium comment. Well, fine. But I think at this point, right now, talking about this is not helping. I think we all need to take a step back and see how we feel. I'm serious.

Alain Pannetier

Good evening everyone!

Rhodri

@RebeccaChernoff How, exactly? He holds all the trumps.

Grace Note

19:52

@Robusto "Stepping back and thinking about it" was eventually going to be my advice, had I not gotten sidetracked.

OghmaOsiris

@Robusto He's super serial.

Kit

@Rhodri Shoot the moon?

Rebecca Chernoff

@Rhodri Well I'm hoping he'll reply on meta. He's not around yet though.

Jez

I'd like to propose that the site be opened up to ESLers and that tricky translations be allowed.

it's generally what's happening on other language sites and would bring ELU into line

Rhodri

@Robusto Good advice. The only reason I'm not taking it is that I've been in situations like this before, and I know very much what my principles require me to do.

Robusto

19:54

Just to prove I'm serial about this, I am stepping back ... now.

Rhodri

@RebeccaChernoff His replies on meta to date have inspired no confidence in me.

Kit

@Rhodri I like you and I will miss you.

Rhodri

I don't really see any point in hanging around to be insulted some more.

Kit

Ping me if you decide to leave forever. I have to go now. Tchuß. Big kisses for you, @Rhodri!

Alain Pannetier

What's going on here. As soon as I connect, everybody's leaving ?

Mr. Disappointment

19:56

Too many messages, so little time. I'll trust you guys have fixed everything to near perfection in my absence.

MrHen

@Rhodri: Obviously, to stay or go is your decision. You deserve to (and should) make that decision how you see fit. We'd rather you stay, naturally, but you make your own call.

Rhodri

@Kit Seriously, once I log off this time, I'm not coming back.

Rebecca Chernoff

Well although I've tried to perfect mind reading, I don't know what words he'll say. Hopefully we'll be enlightened soon.

psmears

@GraceNote Mixed signals - sure. And it changes with who's here. But I think there are enough people that would appreciate an explanation (from anyone) on what they perceive as the lack of consensus. For instance, I don't see the raging comment debates that appear elsewhere... usually I've seen there is one answer with a few upvotes, which is close enough to consensus for the sort of action you're recommending...

MrHen

@AlainPannetier Really short version, Jeff did bad; Kosmonaut left; at least three others are threatening to leave or just have

Mr. Disappointment

19:57

And welcome @GraceNote

Grace Note

@psmears Communication is kinda all I was going to suggest. But I think @Robusto has the right of it.

OghmaOsiris

When did kosmonaut leave?

Grace Note

As it were, I don't think we'll get anywhere for me to jump into this right here, right now.

Alain Pannetier

I'm quite sad to hear this. 99% of the people here loved this site 99% of the time. So I don't think 1% should destroy everything.

3

psmears

@MrHen I don't like the word "threatening". It's not a threat (not from me at least)! It's just one of many options I'm considering - and whatever I do, I hope it won't harm anyone else.

Rhodri

19:58

@Kit: thinking about it, technically what I was is not true. But Jeff apologising seems so unlikely that I can't see me coming back.

Grace Note

I've got some stuff I'm suggesting to Dwig, we'll see how to blow through this storm.

@Rhodri To wit, he actually has said sorry for offensive remarks. Including some that nearly made others leave.

OghmaOsiris

I'm still confused as to what Jeff did exactly, lol...

Alain Pannetier

Why can't Jeff and Kosmo clarify this offline and everything would be like a few days ago.

Rhodri

@GraceNote Really? Links, please.

Grace Note

I'd find the example on Meta Stack Overflow, but it's proving to be a trouble to locate.

Rebecca Chernoff

19:59

@Rhodri I disagree it is as unlikely as you feel it is.

MrHen

@psmears Oh, sorry. It wasn't intended that way.

Grace Note

But in essence - someone made a request on Meta, Jeff replied very violently and said some very nasty words. That really didn't go over well, but the following day he apologized, noted that he was frustrated but that even that isn't an excuse to have been so rude.

MrHen

"Considering" would have been much better, yes.

Grace Note

@Rhodri I'll see again whether I can find it.

But it might require 10k, for the record.

Rhodri

@AlainPannetier Jeff did rather publicly belittle Kos's professional ability, so clarifying offline only goes so far.

@GraceNote I am but a poor humble 6k user. Would I have needed to be 10k to read the original response?

Alain Pannetier

20:01

@Rhodri, I see. He was on a bad day and that hurt Kosmo a lot because he was really dedicated. I see.

Grace Note

@Rhodri I don't remember if it was a revision or a straight up deletion.

Alain Pannetier

Actually a lot of people here thought their dedication was recognised and they now feel that was not the case ?

Rhodri

@GraceNote Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Would I have needed to be a 10k user to have seen the original response at the time? Do I need to be a 10k user to see the retraction now?

Alain Pannetier

Kosmo is one of the 5 most knowledgeable and helpful... This is really a loss...

Grace Note

@Rhodri I understood, I'm saying "I don't remember". I can't find it very easily (which does indicate strongly that it may have gotten deleted), and I honestly don't remember if it was just a revision of his original words (you would not need 10k to see) or if he deleted his original answer and posted a new one (you would need 10k to see)

Rhodri

20:06

@GraceNote If it's any help, I'm just trying to gauge if both were as public as each other when they were intended to be seen.

Rebecca Chernoff

Jeff isn't someone who will never say sorry. He has in the past.

Grace Note

@Rhodri It was in answers which really helps, since that has better history than comments.

Rhodri

Probably equal, then. Thanks.

Grace Note

If I find it again, I'll let you know.

Alain Pannetier

@RebeccaChernoff I wish he does, honestly, I actually like all what Jeff has done for all the SE sites. And I do like Kosmo (did I already say that?). I hate to see all this autodestruction....

Grace Note

20:08

Until then, I'll head out and work on that whole "battle plan" that I'm trying to discuss with Dwig.

Rebecca Chernoff

Well like I said, he isn't around yet today. So...

Rhodri

@GraceNote Good luck!

Grace Note

@Rhodri To you as well. It is nice to meet you, and so I don't have as much attachment as others, but I'll still be sad to see you go, if you do.

Alain Pannetier

OK, then Let's leave it open and no one please take hasty decision. (@Rhodri, @Kit and @Robusto (special mention))

Grace Note

(I'm kinda hoping you don't, but I'm also hoping that we can, somehow, win Kos back, so...)

Later

Rhodri

20:13

@AlainPannetier Shrug "Hasty" would be if I had left yesterday without giving Jeff a chance to take things back. He's had more than enough time to notice that the community disagrees with him.

Alain Pannetier

@Rhodri, look, every one can have a bad day (ask my wife)...

Rhodri

@AlainPannetier Your wife has a lot of bad days, then? :-)

Alain Pannetier

I can see you didn't ask her. I "sometimes" have to buy flowers... ;-)

Michael Myers

@GraceNote: this?

Alain Pannetier

@Rhodri, I can't do rhymes (like you) in French or Spanish, so I need to cough up some money to the florist...

psmears

20:23

@GraceNote For sure, communication is the key. (That's why I'm coming out with lots of stuff - I don't mean to be hostile, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. I'm just very conscious that it was a lack of communication that got us into this mess in the first place...)

Grace Note

@MichaelMyers Y'know, most people say "Later" to indicate they're leaving, not with all that much intention of coming back so soon. But that was it.

Michael Myers

I's jes tryin' to help.

Grace Note

To answer for @Rhodri, the post is currently deleted, but Jeff's hurtful comment is in the body of the question, while Jeff's apology is in his own answer.

So they were equally visible at the time.

Rhodri

Thank 'ee.

Grace Note

> there will be no further discussion on this matter as far as I am concerned. Take it elsewhere, or leave entirely. I don't honestly care which.

Original comment

> edit: after having thought about this a bit more, there was no need for me to be so borderline rude in my comment. I was extremely frustrated with that particular question and should not have taken it out on anyone reading. I'd like to broadly apologize to the community for being unnecessarily rude, and I will send direct email apologies to those affected. Perhaps I should follow my own advice in the /faq: Be Nice.

psmears

20:27

@GraceNote That link does appear to require 10K rep (or at least more than I've got anyway :) ) The best I've seen is this:

meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/1000/…

Grace Note

Stated apology

Rhodri

::blink:: Sorry, that doesn't even begin to compare with what Jeff said to Kos.

Grace Note

@Rhodri I'm aware.

Rhodri

I accept that does mean Jeff can apologise, though

psmears

(which was the question where the hurtful stuff originally appeared)

Grace Note

20:27

Which is all the more reason why I'm pretty sure he will come and apologize.

@psmears I saw Jeff's original, unedited comment, so I'm familiar with what was actually said.

Rhodri

I'm not. Psychologically it's more difficult to come back having gone so far over the top.

Grace Note

@psmears You needn't to worry about me suspecting your genuine interest in good as being hostility.

Rhodri

To stretch the WWI metaphor, at that point your choices are (a) win or (b) die.

psmears

@GraceNote OK - my point is that the nearest that most of us have seen to an apology - until your post just now - is "@kos I have amended my comment; my frustration comes from the fact that nearly every time I visit this site, I am embarrassed to be associated with the sort of banal, least-common-denominator questions that appear here. If this site is indeed intended for experts, it needs far stronger moderation", which is... not very conciliatory!

@GraceNote That would help matters enormously

Grace Note

I think that's really the most important step at this stage, moreso than I anything I could hope to spark on my own motions.

psmears

20:31

And TBH it would increase my respect for Jeff a lot, too

Grace Note

Oh, hi Dwig

I got dragged into your room again.

RegDwight

@MichaelMyers Now that is just unfair, Michael. That was the only occasion on which we had 70 flags. Ever. And that's because I wasn't around. I was in Paris with my mother-in-law. And I had warned everybody, in this room and in Teachers Lounge alike, about that. In advance. Many times over. For crying out loud!

Rhodri

OK, it's getting dark here. I should cycle home before it gets too chilly. I promise to check on the discussion some time.

I'd say "see you", but I don't actually expect to.

Bye.

Grace Note

@Rhodri Have a safe trip home

RegDwight

I always try to keep the number of flags under 10. (I am failing miserably today, for obvious reasons.) The ones that I don't clear immediately are left there as a post-it to other mods.

You can't just take one naked number and hold it up against us like that.

I am supposed to be clearing the flags at my own leisure anyhow. I haven't signed anything saying that I must be on the site 24/7, or in fact at all.

@GraceNote Sorry for that. I wish our earlier attempts to drag you into here had been just as successful.

Grace Note

20:40

@RegDwight You attempted to drag me in here before?

RegDwight

@GraceNote I know you read the transcript a couple times. I know you loved the spider pictures. I pay attention, Grace.

Grace Note

@RegDwight I like arthropods because they're cute, yes. I did see additional batches of them.

Rebecca Chernoff

20:55

arthropods? cute?

Grace Note

@RebeccaChernoff Yes. Exceptionally so.

Rebecca Chernoff

You should go look up "cute" in the dictionary. You might be a bit confused. (:

Grace Note

@RebeccaChernoff No, I'm not. I think they're often quite adorable, cuddleworthy, and pleasing to the eye. All of which tend to match with "cute"

Rebecca Chernoff

if you say so q:

Grace Note

Some people think that it's cute to see a hamster nibbling on a piece of popcorn. I think a giant centipede nibbling on a mouse is cute.

Michael Myers

20:58

You should go look up "psychosis" in the dictionary. You might be a bit confused. :)

Shog9

I have a video of a fuzzy-looking tarantula around here somewhere. It was so scared.

Desert centipedes are evil creatures

Grace Note

It's all gnawy and if I was up to it I'd be typing all the non-sense words I'm using to describe how adorable a centipede looks when feasting.

Rebecca Chernoff

um

Michael Mrozek

We really need to restrict @GraceNote's insanity to a single room; I've got no escape right now

flees to the UL room

OghmaOsiris

Another example of inconsistancies from meta to english.se: FumbleFinger's comment on english.stackexchange.com/q/34147/9969

Grace Note

21:01

@MichaelMrozek Oh, come on, my arthropod fascination is harmless in comparison to what else I could discuss.

Rebecca Chernoff

@OghmaOsiris I feel like there's a link to a meta post you're going to give me? (:

OghmaOsiris

4

Q: Is asking a question about the politeness of a phrase on-topic?

I'm looking at the FAQs and I'm trying to see if this has already been answered...Can't find it anywhere. Is asking if a phrase is polite on topic? Wouldn't subjects like this be too subjective to personal opinion on what's polite and what's not polite?

discussion on-topic-off-topic

Shog9

@OghmaOsiris Really need a Ms. Manners.SE

OghmaOsiris

the same question that was brought up previously, lol

@Shog9 I was going to suggest that at area 51, but I thought about it and it would be nothing but subjective questions/answers... nothing productive.

Rebecca Chernoff

what does politeness about a phrase have to do with why someone initializes their first name?

I think I'm missing something.

Shog9

21:04

@OghmaOsiris I looked and found something horrible and fascinating

aedia

@RegDwight I feel my training in l'humour noir is insufficient to cope with the current situation, so I am largely lurking... If you have time, I would be grateful if you would add my email address to those you pass on to Kosmo, and please feel free to let him know I would be honored should I ever have the chance to learn from him in the "real" world.

Shog9

(note that Pete Turner has already added the question in question as a proposed question to the list of questions)

OghmaOsiris

@RebeccaChernoff Its more about the comment itself saying that the reason for a close vote

@Shog9 I doubt it's going to be approved, lol

Shog9

Eh, I've seen stranger things. Heck, there's a beta for a site on Productivity!

Alain Pannetier

@aedia Same for me if you please @RegDwight.

psmears

21:10

@RebeccaChernoff Me too. Even if there is a link with politeness - the meta question says that's OK (within limits), and the question remained open...

OghmaOsiris

@psmears I wasn't really trying to connect the question asked to the meta question, I was trying to connect FumbleFingers comment to the meta question.

psmears

@OghmaOsiris Right... but my point is that, even if one user disagreed, the community as a whole went with the answer in meta :)

Shog9

@psmears what? where?!

OghmaOsiris

@psmears Eh, maybe I just don't like FumberFingers, lol... He's been consistantly rude to multiple users.

psmears

@Shog9 The question didn't get closed, right? Or am I looking at the wrong one?

z7sg

21:14

@OghmaOsiris I've taught English as a foreign language and relative politeness of phrases, register, informality etc. were important topics there and we have had many interesting questions about this on EL&U. But etiquette itself I don't consider on-topic. Actually I don't even know if that question is about etiquette... I'm not sure what it is about.

Shog9

@psmears The initials one? It hasn't been closed yet. STill time, don't despair !

@z7sg It looks to be two questions: one about a common naming pattern, and one about greeting etiquette

psmears

@OghmaOsiris Rude? I've not noticed that (though I'm sure I haven't seen all the comments). Overly chatty, possibly. But if you see rude stuff please do flag it, for the sake of all of us.

@Shog9 Fair enough :) But I hope to see a better explanation if it does get closed... (I said I was an optimist, right? ;) )

OghmaOsiris

@psmears I just flagged a few of his rude comments/answers

ALso, as an aside, what makes a word a valid word or not? As in my question about shelled vs deshelled

z7sg

@psmears He has annoyed me too a few times but I wouldn't say he's rude exactly. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people myself... and I am going to try harder to be nice, as well as being right!

OghmaOsiris

I got multiple people telling me deshelled isn't a word

but I've heard that word used for as long as I can remember.

psmears

21:21

@RebeccaChernoff BTW I've been through all of the ten questions you mentioned. Only quickly, but comparing our top answer to the top few google results, we compare very favourably - in all but one case the google results were essentially useless (for the question at hand), and in the other our answer was marginally better. Go ELU! (Well, on that one measure, on one small sample, anyway :) )

Rebecca Chernoff

that's good news (:

Alain Pannetier

@OghmaOsiris Never noticed anything rude about FumbleFingers either (just gone through the last page of his activity tab).

psmears

@OghmaOsiris Good work. Ordinarily the mods would look at them very quickly - and decide one way or the other whether they think they're rude - but as I'm sure you'll understand their capacity is severely limited at the moment! :)

OghmaOsiris

Though in his defence, I did call him out on his rudeness in one of my questions and he said sorry and edited his answer.

psmears

@OghmaOsiris That's a very complex question - and not really one I have the bandwidth to discuss right now. But when people say "that's not a word", always take it as "that's not a word in my dialect", or "...in Standard English", or "...in the dictionary I'm looking in". And if you've got a dictionary link to show them otherwise, do post it for them :)

OghmaOsiris

21:29

@psmears At that particular time, I was going off a google search. I searched both terms and they both received millions of hits. Even in cooking sites, news sites, etc. So to me deshelled IS a word as it is relatively common from what I've seen.

psmears

@OghmaOsiris That is a perfectly valid position.

OghmaOsiris

@psmears But apparently not good enough.

RegDwight

@aedia Duly noted, though be warned that Kosmo is extremely paranoid about disclosing any personal information, let alone meeting anyone IRL.

Grace Note

A very respectable choice

psmears

@OghmaOsiris Try to interpret their answers as "There are people in the world who consider de-shell is not a word". That is useful information :)

Robusto

21:47

So ... did my hiatus help everyone come to a satisfying resolution of this mess, or are we further along, or back where we started?

rest_day

seems like we were waiting for you

Robusto

Don't all answer at once.

Grace Note

@Robusto Some of us are doing the whole "mulling" thing you effectively suggested

Robusto

@GraceNote — Hmm ... except you're not supposed to "mull" out loud. It's not polite, I hear.

Grace Note

@Robusto That's why you don't see anyone jumping out, neh?

Robusto

21:50

@GraceNote — To be polite, I think you need desu before neh ...

Grace Note

@Robusto I don't speak keigo unless I'm actually speaking Japanese.

Robusto

@GraceNote — And I don't normally speak Japanese unless I'm speaking, um, Japanese. ^_)^

Grace Note

@Robusto Well, "neh" isn't so much Japanese. I mean, the "h" there and all that.

I used to say "no?" a lot at the end of my sentences, too.

OghmaOsiris

dont touch my moustache.

Robusto

A close-enough transliteration.

aedia

21:55

@RegDwight Oh, I certainly understand. I just meant... I may someday get my act together about going to graduate school for linguistics, so if Kosmo stays in academia, maybe we will meet again. At least that's what I'm telling myself so I don't get too sad.

Robusto

@GraceNote — What, not no wa? 女らしくないですね。。。

Michael Myers

No wai?

Grace Note

@Robusto I'm not Japanese or really even especially fond of the language, so I don't really pepper my speech with it.

Robusto

@OghmaOsiris — Stop that!

Grace Note

"no?" is adapted from hispanic.

Robusto

21:57

@GraceNote — I'm just playing a game with you. It's OK if you don't want to play along.

@MichaelMyers — Dude, wai.

Grace Note

@Robusto I noticed, but I lacked a proper rebuttal and my machine can't display kanji so I only got the hiragana end of that.

So I had to resort to only noting the English portion. Probably misses out a whole lot by doing so.

Robusto

@GraceNote — One character, three strokes, sounds like ... onna.

Grace Note

@Robusto I think I know which one. Now, if only I could read the sentence with it... gimmeh a moment.

Oh. I see

(I think. You can probably trust a random translator string as far as you can throw it...)

Well, I gotta jet home. Ja ne, dream-person ♪

Robusto

Mata ne.

MrHen

(Innocuous sounding statement that gets everyone riled up again.)

Mr. Disappointment

22:08

...

Michael Mrozek

(nonsensical statement involving plankton)

psmears

(something strange in a different alphabet)

Michael Myers

@MrHen Of course you know this means war!

MrHen

(comparison between plankton and particular parental units)

@MichaelMyers Fight all the things!

Mr. Disappointment

(withholds my tourettes like keyboard aspersions, for the time being)

Robusto

22:24

@MrDisappointment — Sounds like aspersionsberger syndrome to me.

Michael Myers

@Robusto Oh good, I'm not the only one who thought that.

Mr. Disappointment

And there was me thinking I might be unique.

Robusto

@MrDisappointment — Get in line.

Alain Pannetier

22:39

All, do you know about pastafarianism?

Robusto

@AlainPannetier — Noodles and ganja?

Alain Pannetier

@Vitaly, that's a new Austrian religion.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523

psmears

@AlainPannetier It's a reasonably well-known internet meme...

Alain Pannetier

@Robusto, not far...

psmears

@AlainPannetier Heh, I wondered if you were about to post that :)

Robusto

22:41

I'm for any religion that believes in noodles and ganja.

Alain Pannetier

In what order?

Robusto

Well, in reverse order. Cuz, like, munchies, etc.

Anyway, speaking of which ... munchies time. Laterz all.

psmears

I'm off too. Goodnight all!

Alain Pannetier

@psmears Well, the thing, this guy is actually setting a precedent. Se what comes next!

See you.

let's call it a day!

if ever a hard one

Mr. Disappointment

@Robusto Cake solves the problem of sharing devotion between idols.

RegDwight

22:55

Just not yellow cake.

Then again...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…