TRPG General Chat - 2013-10-27

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3:46 AM

2

Q: What role-playing games don't feature experience?

I've never played a tabletop role-playing game, but when I was young I played a lot of role-playing video games, and I never liked the experience system they all used. I won't say that everything from that concept is bad, and to be honest I'm not interested in the pro and cons of xp. I just wou...

game-recommendation

This needs the a bit of "Why your question can't really be answered here," I think.

Or a tweak?

I guess "Where can I find games that don't have experience points?"

4:11 AM

Not only is it asking for an open-ended list, there are many different kinds of "experience" that may not fall under what he's trying to avoid.

For example, All Flesh Must Be Eaten awards experience points, but they are actually meta-game currency you spend to improve your character. You don't have to wait for a bar to fill up before you get better; any time you have XP, you can choose to spend it.

What's the SE protocol for "You are posting really, really crappy answers to a bunch of questions that were already answered well a year ago, please stop?"

Welcome to rpg.se! Please take a look at the tour and the help; they're a useful introduction to the site. There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of XP-less RPGs, and even more which use XP in ways you might not object to. Open-ended lists don't usually make good answers, so can you narrow things down for us a bit? What don't you like about XP, and are you interested only in free games? And since you have 20+ rep, feel free to join the chat! — BESW 29 secs ago

@AlexP New user?

4:28 AM

Hello

@BESW Kinda, I think?

@Magician Hey.

It's someone with 12 accounts who knows how to use Area 51 and Meta. But doesn't have a score over 100 anywhere.

Would you care to read a draft of the definitive owlbear text? I've been re-writing the ending for several days now...

Of course! But it may take me a while to get to it.

4:33 AM

Excellent! One moment...

Owlbear draft.

"leaving the limbless PC behind" --presumably the owlbear only takes one limb, leaving three behind, so the PC isn't limbless.

I like limbless :P

"Admiral Nelson didn't have an eye." "Not true! He had an eye!"

(I know he only lost vision in one eye, not the eye itself).

But that's distinctly different from Admiral Nelson being eyeless.

Is true. Changed to "maimed".

4:45 AM

Excellent.

That second-to-last sentence sounds like a Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead riff.

Hmmmm. Not intentional, but I'm ok with that.

@BESW wouldn't have pegged you as a Vagrant Story fan?

Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead

Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead is an absurdist, existentialist tragicomedy by Tom Stoppard, first staged at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 1966.[http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/edinburgh-cradle-of-shows-that-conquered-the-world-2041216.html "Edinburgh: Cradle of shows that conquered the world"] Independent 2 August 2010 The play expands upon the exploits of two minor characters from Shakespeare's Hamlet, the courtiers Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. The action of Stoppard's play takes place mainly "in the wings" of Shakespeare's, with brie...

Ah. My lack of peg is correct then lol. Now I know where they might have borrowed the names from :P

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Hamlet and the many ways people explore it and experiment with it.

Even (perhaps especially) the awful ones.

5:01 AM

So does anyone here know anything about home security?

5:12 AM

Not I, sorry.

5:31 AM

Halloween costume idea:

@KyleKallgren Wear a tux and a sign saying "I'm Sorry." You can be Formal Apology.

Tweeted by Samuraiko on October 27, 2013 at 1:30 AM in reply to KyleKallgren

Aaaand how to incubate cuttlefish in a soda bottle.

2 hours later…

7:30 AM

Man, Deeper in the Game (home of Same Page Tool) is just the gift that keeps on giving. Bouncing around his various sidebar links has given me several great blogs to read.

2 hours later…

9:21 AM

@AlexP Anything that should get suggested for the ticker feed?

3 hours later…

12:04 PM

Can we get a couple more close votes on this until the OP clarifies what they want?

Right now any answer that mentions just one single game that doesn't use the word "experience points" is equally valid and that's not useful for the site.

@EricB Hi!

hello

What's up?

ended up scrapping my old campaign after all. I started a new one with people I don't know at all on roll20 and that's been going pretty well.

Glad to hear that.

About the new campaign, at least.

2 hours later…

2:12 PM

Ah, I had a great answer in mind for that Erica Greaves Au question that got closed. :(

Saving it to a file

Urrgh. Arrow can't pronounce "Ra's al Ghul" right either.

(Technically "Rahz" --like Batman Begins says it-- is closer to the Arabic, but "Raysh" is somewhat more canonical in-universe.)

retconning

Batman Beyond actually went out of its way to make a point of it.

Terry says "Rahz" until Talia corrects him with "Raysh.")

uhm, no ret-conning, then

M'rr. If it's ret-conning, it's very recent.

And of course, pronunciation for a primarily non-audio medium is a bit wonky in terms of canon anyway.

And certainly Arrow isn't in continuity with any of the other DC Comics products with the possible exception of the Nolan films.

Oh, and Arrow is doing something really wacky with Black Canary.

2:28 PM

@BESW Not game-related.

2 hours later…

4:12 PM

I need a TV show to watch while I work. Something where you don't have to be watching the screen much, or think too hard, to know what's going on.

Primeval worked well, but I've gone through it about three times now.

1 hour later…

5:29 PM

hi people

my pathfinder character has a "trait"

that he is suicidal

@Discipol hi

and one of my other partymembers, a gnome barbarian is the only one to help me get over it

we are both stumped how to do this

any suggestions?

@Discipol why? what's the story behind it?

my char is a magus

and he wanted to be / parents pushed him into being a wizard

but is just a magus

and he was so depressed about it, he wanted to kill himself

what's the difference?

5:31 PM

but the gnome barb beat him close to death

so much, he didnt want to die

magus weaker wizard

5:55 PM

Geez i answer a question and leave for a day. come back and its been upvoted to +39. Didnt expect it to be that good an answer. just the one i hope would have been most helpful.

:P

say novian

could you help me on my issue?

its more meta than pathfinder specific

I can try is all i can say

My knowledge isnt vast like some users. @BESW for example.

go nuts

What is your issue.

my character is suicidal

because he can't be a wizard

he is just a magus

6:04 PM

I see.

and another player

a barbarian gnome, beat him when she found him attempting to suicide

beat sense in him

but now he is still suicidal

and we have to resolve the issue

but neither me or her don't know how to approach the situation

my dm compels my char to stand in front of danger

well Suicidal tendencies usually dont go away with the first try.

Realistically of course.

So, okay, how is your game actually treating suicide?

the dm is compeling my char to do death by cop

Like, a story about realistic suicidal depression is a major downer.

Out-of-character, what do you want?

Forget "what my character would do" for a second.

6:05 PM

Indeed.

from a gaming perspective

You must first establish what you want. as a player.

we have to rezolve to issue for xp

its a mini quest

1. Do you want to keep playing your character?

Hmm.

6:07 PM

2. Do you feel like you actually want your game to feature suicide, prominently? (Ditto how do the other players feel?)

Do note that one way to resolve this is "My character can't deal with this, and retires. But doesn't kill himself or whatever."

i dont want him dead

i just rolled this "flaw"

How many sessions have you spent RPing "suicidal"?

Because it sounds like you're a bit sick of it and out of ideas for where to go next?

dm compels my char to take point

get first campfire watch

(Feel free to interrupt, @Novian, I'm not trying to steal this conversation from you ;) )

I always default to "Talk to the GM" When it seems like a Between DM and Player Problem

@AlexP I am stumped honestly. my brain hasnt yet figured out this quandary

6:10 PM

Also, what are the mechanics involved here? You mention flaws and compels.

Sounds like the GM sees your choice of flaw as a request or commitment which he doesn't think you're following through on by yourself, so he's "helping" you with the RP themes you chose.

Ah the sage @BESW has arrived

Like, what's the intent of "Suicidal" in the book? Is it really that your character will just off himself?

I'm quite busy, can't actually do the whole conversation thing.

Ah.

6:12 PM

If it's supposed to be a "heroic" flaw to struggle with and overcome, well, eventually you do just get to overcome it. ;)

If your same character wasn't suicidal, would you enjoy playing him/her?

Because then to me it sounds like getting rid of the trait one way or another is kinda a good goal.

If it wasnt so complicated. going to the planar equivalent of hell for a day would be the solution. but this isnt the same kind of dillema.

the point is to overcome it through the gnome barbarian

only she can help me

Suicide isnt something Additional emotional trauma can fix.

i was thinking

he intentionally fails through might

You said you take first watch usually? Via GM compulsion?

6:15 PM

so i can do it through magic

yeah

else i get xp penalty

When does The Barbarian take watch?

last

Hmm...

@Discipol So this is a game where the GM judges your roleplaying and hands out penalties and bonuses?

just for this thing

we dont roleplay at all

6:17 PM

I suppose you could attempt to Bond and communicate with the barbarian in between watches until your character deems life worth living and suicide a poor option.

and he randomed stuff for everybody

Is this a thing that can be resolved?

@AlexP Do you mean the randoming or the flaw?

@Zachiel I mean can you stop being whatever your flaw is.

it can be

its from some sort of a module

isn't meant to be solved in a session or two

but after i solve it, anotherone pops in should we want anotherone

6:20 PM

Uhm, it happens sometimes that game designers just put something in their game because *they+ think it's a good idea, and they also think finding a way to solve it is the players' job.

This is a quandary for the century. but i do appologise. Life calls. and i must go. Sorry i couldnt help you @Discipol

I strongly disagree. If it's into a game it should be there for a reason, even for a meta one.

np

cheers

its to force us roleplay

@Discipol Have a good day and i hope you find the solution

other pair of players got randomed

they are doing a con

something involving horses, they decided to keep it a secret from the rest of us

they resolve it by doing it

6:22 PM

I understand your group does not roleplay. If your DM believes putting some arbitrary flaws on you guys will help you roleplay better or more, I'm sorry but he's gonna be deluded. Especially because he didn't think very well about which flaws are actually good for Pathfinder adventurers, IMHO.

So does the GM just want you and this other player to, like, come up with a scene that resolves this?

scene and solution

solution is important

its a debuff basically

and when he get over it, we grow as people and get xp <3

One easy way would be finding some objective that your character believes is worth living for.

@Zachiel Yup. I was about to recommend this.

yeah, the barbarian gnome female has to do something about this

and i have to roleplay with it

6:24 PM

@Discipol So create a scene where she convinces him?

Another one is overcoming his reasons to feel bad, namely realizing that a Magus is strong enough

well i was thinking she fails intentionally to kill a monster

and my magus finishes the job

I suggest falling in love with the small, muscular gal. Just for fun.

M'rr. Here's the thing: regardless of whether it's implemented well, regardless of whether it aids in roleplaying, suicide is Serious Stuff. Including it in a list of random flaws that can be imposed on a player without his choosing it? Is tacky at best.

@BESW I think you're being too charitable, to be honest.

6:26 PM

Themes of suicide are trigger-warning territory. Forcing someone to role-play a suicidal character and figure out how to "fix" it is downright dangerous.

I think this can be solved with a veil. If it comes up, the player tells the GM if it's ok or not. From what I've heard, this particular GM isn't game-smart enough to figure it out by himself.

well he wants death by cop now

not gonna knife his neck

lets exchange suicidal

with depressive

Depression isn't much better, really, and it's clear your GM is treating it as suicide. Real Life Mental Illness of any sort is not something that a game designer or a GM should toss around casually.

For people who haven't had mental illness come into their lives it's often hard to understand, I know. I've run into that myself.

There's an awful stigma in our society that mental illness is the person's own fault, that they can just get better if they want it hard enough.

yes well

it is pathfinder / medieval with magic

So, it seems like your GM wants you to Fishmalk it up.

6:31 PM

not familiar with that

So, White Wolf's Vampire has a clan whose curse is a kind of visionary power that resembles insanity to others. Malkavians.

@AlexP Fishmalk is a White Wolf term for an insane PC whose insanity is treated as a funny inconvenience.

i love them

user image

So, yeah, mental illness in RPGs. Kissing fish and walking around in your underpants.

the fish isn't gonna kiss itself

6:34 PM

Here's the thing.

The problem is that this isn't really "roleplaying" in most ways. It kills your ability to actually talk to people in the game.

You've got three people involved in this.

@BESW You've got two people who really don't want to "roleplay" this and are kinda stuck on how to do it, and a GM who is forcing you.

Each person probably has a different idea about where on the scale of Serious Business to Fishmalk this flaw should be dealt with.

i really would like this solved

to get rid of the debuff

and get the xp

6:36 PM

If your character's suicidal whatever is literally "sad you can't be a wizard," consider a resolution that is "Do some weird quest that allows you to rebuild yourself into a wizard."

i want him to be a magus :D

i just have to find a way for him to deal with it

I think your problem is that you're in this kind of fictional no-man's-land where the GM is expecting you to do all the work for an idea that only the GM seems to care about.

2

"Dance, my puppets, dance!"

"Roleplay this to my satisfaction but I won't tell you how!"

It's just as annoying as when a player goes, "I want to DO STUFF. But I won't tell you what. I'm just going to be annoyed that I'm not doing it."

@AlexP The one thing I loved from the very beginning about the guy who died from a poke was that he always knew exactly what he wanted, and told me so straight up.

"I want to do good deeds in town, especially rescuing someone from a burning house."

"I want my character to have a good relationship with the catfolk, and maybe eventually be adopted by them."

6:42 PM

So really you either need to (A) tell him that this particular dance he wants you to do is kind of... well, it's going to a bad place where the game does not need to be. Or (B) figure out a way to do the dance to his satisfaction in the quickest and least annoying way possible and then have this never come up again.

I think "A" is probably better for the long-term health of the group. It cultivates a culture of "Let's think about what we want to experience at the table."

Agreed.

If our analysis is wrong, though, speak up.

:| nobody suggested me a solution

just lots of hate on the gm xD

6:58 PM

@Discipol "Tell him that this particular dance he wants you to do is kind of... well, it's going to a bad place where the game does not need to be."

That's not true. We suggested you first need to figure out whether you want to solve this "in-character" or at the group level.

yes, we are stumped

Also we suggested a few options like heroically deciding something is Worth Fighting For and never mentioning suicide again.

my problem remains that she has to fix it

Well, have her talk you into it.

7:00 PM

as a barbarian her style and charater is bad at it

She's like 'We're all in this together." Your characters make out. Boom. Done.

Is that realistic? Hells no. But it'll get you over it.

^ this has potential

@Discipol Work together to find anything other than violence that her character is good at or just naturally wants to do. Do that thing.

would be more funny if she would fix this using violence :D

if violence isn't fixing your problems

you aren't using enough of it

I mean, you're making it really, really sound like the GM wants your two characters to have a single scene together that will fix this.

like he has a specific hting in mind

7:05 PM

there are many pairs of characters each with its own Bond

Except for the part where he says it can't be fixed in a single session.

But yes, it does sound like he's got something in mind and will be hard to persuade to accept something else.

what is the difference between a magus and a wizard?

I assume the magus is better at ACTION! in some way

magus uses offensive spells to complement melee or ranged attacks

so, there, the barbarian convinces you that ACTION! is awesome

less spells

less known spells

7:07 PM

and ivory-tower egghead wizard crap is for ponces and elitists and soft fools

its basically a duskblade

7:27 PM

I think it's very important that you tell the GM if you aren't having fun with this "flaw" thing.

If you don't tell him, he won't know it's not a big success and he'll think you want him to do it again.

GMs are not magical creatures who can divine the players' unspoken mood, nor are they the Fun Police with the authority to tell you whether your feelings on a subject are right or wrong.

3

Although I usually dislike any aphorism about "good GMs," I think it's safe to say that a common trait shared by good GMs is that, though intuition, interrogation, or voodoo, they have a good idea of what each player likes and dislikes, and they want to use that information to maximize enjoyment by all.

And as a GM who strives to be good but knows no voodoo, I appreciate players who take initiative in telling me what they enjoy, what they dislike, and what they hope for, in my games.

@BESW On that note, how can I tell my DM that I think he's unnecessarily nerfed my Distracting Attack by imposing a 30' range?

What is it normally?

no range limit.

Distracting Attack (PHBII 55)
Level: 4th
Replaces: Animal companion.
Benefit: Allies consider an enemy hit by your attacks to be flanked by you for one round or until an ally attacks him.

Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged) that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating your allies' attacks. This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first.

Was the nerf imposed after a particularly egregious range-based event?

"Hey, I know 3.5 isn't the best balanced system in the world and you're probably used to needing to force balance onto it, but this feature is replacing an entire tertiary party member on a class that isn't a primary spellcaster. Would you mind trusting the developers until actual gameplay brings up a reason not to?"

@BESW nope. the target was at 35 or 40 (on my turn), and then advanced into melee range of my ally (on my target's turn). my DM thought it was overpowered for distracting attack to apply (said he was uncomfortable with the balance of third-party materials) and slapped the range restriction on me.

7:41 PM

Distracting Attack is not third-party.

@BESW that was my opinion.

@BESW we don't actually own the book ... so he might not have realised that "PHBII" was "Player's Handbook II" and an official WotC product.

Third-party materials are often poorly worded and can be taken advantage of because of that, but Wizards' official products imbalance their own game just fine on their own.

So...how can I tell him I don't think his nerf is necessary without coming off as confrontational and making him regret allowing the ACF in the first place?

I'd have to know a lot more about his GMing style and your friendship with him to give really good advice.

slap him in the face and call him names

this approach always works for me

7:44 PM

@BESW any general advice?

Be humble. Don't tell him he's wrong.

Dissemble a little, even. If he trusts Wizards more than third-party, start with that:

For example, start with "Hey, I double-checked and 'PHBII' is actually the official WotC Player's Handbook II!"

From there, "And, you know, I gave up getting a bear for this feature. A bear can offer flanking bonuses from a lot further away than 30 feet, and he's a bear."

"I'm not asking for a retcon on that last fight, I respect that you made the call in the middle of combat and I don't want backsies, but maybe going forward, since it's official 3.5 material and it's replacing a whole animal companion, I could use it as written without the range penalty?"

You're not challenging his authority to make hard calls in combat, and you're not asking for do-overs, and you're not saying "hey, you're wrong and dumb!"

@BESW Thanks, that actually helps a lot. Now to go revise that email I drafted last night ...

Glad to be of service.

If possible, do it face-to-face.

Text is so easy to misread tone.

(but don't do it in front of other players or at a time when it's cutting into the game time.)

Now, it's 6am and I need sleep.

8:02 PM

@BESW sleep is good. sleep well!

2 hours later…

9:47 PM

@Wyrmwood I'll be in chat for a bit if you want to discuss it further. :)

1 hour later…

11:11 PM

@Tridus my understanding is that he won't get that ping because he's not in the tab-complete list, sadly. So we're stuck doing what we shouldn't (having extended comment-debates) until we trigger the automatic "move to chat" thing.

@Tridus By the way, no matter what Skip says, you don't take a penalty for attacking with a weapon just because you happen to be holding another weapon in the other hand, any more than you do if you're holding a shield (which is, after all, usually also a weapon), or holding a torch (which can be used as an improvised weapon), or in any other case. Those penalties kick in if and only if you use the Two Weapon Fighting option to get yourself an extra attack.

I'm a little confused as to why the debate is happening in comments. If you feel an answer is incorrect you just mark it down and provide an alternative don't you?

@Phil we're debating with the question-asker himself, who has decided he likes the wrong answer better even though he's explicitly going to "houserule" his own game to not include the (inaccurate) rule

but that's his prerogative. He can select whichever answer he likes.

in other words, it's a misunderstanding of what the checkmark means, an incredibly-messy question, and also just a sheer misunderstanding of the rules

@Phil but he doesn't like it

it's not the answer he's going to use in his game

I would take it to meta then

11:20 PM

doesn't seem worth it

I just don't like SIWOTI

Given the sheer number of comments that its generating, I'm not sure I agree :)

SIWOTI?

@Phil Someone Is Wrong On The Internet

meh - I personally think everyone is making a massive argument about something which the way the site works deals with naturally. He might have selected the answer the 'wrong' way, but the correct answer will bubble to the top as more people vote for it.

the question has also become a mess, but since I was the one saying so he's just accused me of downvoting it because I don't like that he disagrees with me

and for info, I've flagged the whole lot for attention by mods, as I think its the kind of thing which is never going to be satisfactorily resolved

I certainly agree that the question is a complete mess, and have downvoted accordingly

11:38 PM

@KRyan Yeah I agree with you, and I did another edit to make that clear in my answer. I just wanted to mention it so that at least there would be some explanation as to what he's talking about.

And yeah, it needs a cleanup now. I'd do most of it myself if we could get through to him on how it works, because at that point fixing the question would be easy (and I could wipe out all my own comments, at least)

Trouble is that he's apparently decided on the answer he wants to hear, based on misreading an article, and is using that to argue a lot of stuff that's just wrong.

Doesn't matter in my opinion

The fact its got personal means that you are almost certainly never going to 'get through to him' as I think he's extremely unlikely to back down now. Hence flagging it for moderator attention as I think the clean up needs to be done by someone who hasn't been involved in the question and answer comment debate

He also has a shocking misunderstanding of what the word "glossary" means

@Phil Based on the most recent comment we do seem to be getting somewhere. :)

Meh - I just fundamentally disagree with comments being used like that :o)

You're not wrong.

@Tridus and now he's made yet another edit to his question

11:43 PM

@Tridus The glossary is the thing that defines your terms.

Stop feeding him :o/

@Phil He's not in chat.

Doesn't matter - comments should not be used like that

@AlexP Tell him that. In his world the glossary is the rules itself, and anything in the glossary applies all the time. It's pretty hard to understand why he's so slavishly hooked on the glossary except that it's giving him the answer he wants to hear instead of the real one.

Isn't this all just an ugly quirk of updating the books wrong between 3.0 and 3.5?

11:45 PM

@AlexP No, not really. Off-hand is a term that has meaning. It applies when using two-weapon fighting.

The wording of the whole thing is fine, unless you decide to read into the glossary entry that 'off-hand' actually means your left hand, all the time, even though nowhere does it say anything of the sort.

@Tridus Well, it wouldn't the the first time in gaming history that a rule accidentally got cut and the only reference to it was in some weird little corner of the book. Not that that is what is happening here.

There's no problem unless you assume it should work a certian way and then try to read it so that it does, instead of just reading what it says. If you read what it says, it's pretty straightforward.

3.0:

> Ambidexterity [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off hand. The character is neither left-handed nor right-handed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who uses his or her off hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat helps offset the penalty for fighting with two weapons.

Yeah, now he's complaining that he's downvoted because people are being mean to him, and not because his question is a mess.

My advice - walk away

11:48 PM

@Phil Yup.

@AlexP Yep, and 3.5 removed that. :) The only time this ever comes up in 3.5 is TWF

Any other time, you're attacking with your main hand

@Tridus That's what I'm saying. It's a bad paste-job from 3.0

@AlexP I guess you could see it that way. I don't find it that confusing personally.

I think his last edit is particularly telling. The fact that he refers to the site as a forum indicates he has a fundamental misunderstanding about the way it works, and engaging in a comment debate with him is only reinforcing that

I stopped

I wish we could get him into chat

11:52 PM

well all you can do is invite him, but as he hasn't arrived I would guess he doesn't want to

anyways, bed time - moving house tomorrow so need all the energy I can get :o)

@Phil Yikes, good luck!

thanks - nn all

@Phil good night

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