English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

15:03

Energy bars made from crickets. But ignore the picture: that’s a grasshopper, not a cricket. Idiotic media.

> “Cricket Bars: When you want to get the jump on the competition!”

> "So there's both an economic and environmental benefit to farming insects for protein," he said.

Wait, should that be an insect farm or an insect ranch?

> He researched insect farming and learned that insects convert grain and grass into edible protein as much as 10 times more efficiently than cows and pigs.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Are they free-range crickets? Cuz otherwise, no sale

tchrist

> "Most Americans are still skeptical about foods made with insects," he said. Just last year Starbucks faced a consumer backlash when it disclosed that it used insects as food coloring in some of its drinks and food products. The company subsequently announced it would transition to a tomato-based extract.

Everybody knows that that funny red color is from beetlejuice.

Most energy bars are vegetarian.

Many even all.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If they’re free-range, how are you going to keep them on your ranch, or recover them once they’ve jumped the corral? Brand them?

At least they aren’t packed into those nasty little stalls all their lives.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist I'll allow a sufficiently huge cage as "free range"

tchrist

Crickets are Gryllidae. That’s cute.

Consider that the cricket is el grillo in Spanish.

Mitch

@Noah ha ha. Not it is not self-explanatory because I didn't understand! What does 'duchy' come from? what does it mean?

tchrist

15:11

There’s even a verb grillar for the song of a cricket.

RegDwighт

Mitch

@Robusto The One Ring.

except there are two One Rings.

RegDwighт

Pictured from left to right: a sufficienly huge cage (artist's conception).

tchrist

Grilled crickets. Mmmmmm.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We know too much to be happy. The richest know the most. So they are the worst off of all. Poor little rich people.

tchrist

15:14

@Mitch Explain poor little rich people in terms of adjective ordering restrictions.

RegDwighт

I will explain it in terms of anything for three million dollars.

Mitch

'rich poor little people' = leprechauns

RegDwighт

Deprecated leprechauns.

tchrist

Exaudi Domine deprecationem meam.

Because leprechauns that used to drive Audis fall over just like dominos.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I don't know that we know too much to be happy. I'm happy just to have the luxury to contemplate knowing things, instead of, eg, wondering if the bank will foreclose on my house and make me sell my Lego collection to pay bills.

tchrist

15:23

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 “Call no man happy till he is dead.” –Herodotus

For even the Wise cannot see all ends.

Robusto

Voca me...
Et de profundo lacu.
Libera me de ore leonis,
Ne cadam in obscurum,
Ne absorbeat me Tartarus.

tchrist

Er.

Libera eas de ore leonis, ne absorbeat eas tartarus, ne cadant in obscurum.

►

Robusto

@tchrist Go tell it to Berlioz.

tchrist

I’m trying to remember the Quam olim Abrahae that has mirrored parts.

Fauré?

It’s in 7, I remember.

Britten.

Robusto

I guess a Romantic would make it more personal.

tchrist

15:32

►

At 2:20

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist I disagree that the prospect of future calamity should have any bearing on whether or not someone is currently happy.

tchrist

That version ends with “So Abram slew his son, and half the seed of Europe, one by one.”

Because none were spared.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist And frankly that story is awful:

> the mother of these dutiful lads prayed to Hera to bestow upon them “the greatest blessing that can befall mortal men.” After the sacrifices and feasting, the young brothers laid down in the temple for a nap, and Hera granted their mother’s prayer by allowing them to die in their sleep.

tchrist

Britten twisted the story, giving it a modern ending.

Which resonates terribly.

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?

Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
And builded parapets and trenched there,
And streched forth the knife to slay his son.

When lo! and angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him

But the old man would not so,
but slew his son, -
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

Courtesy of Wilfred Owen.

Full libretto here, with translation where necessary.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I should be so lucky.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist what do you mean?

Mitch

15:43

wait, I get 3 mil if I answer that?

tchrist

Just what I said.

Cameron plans to block all porn in that green and pleasant land. Good luck with that, sir.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Can you clarify what you said?

tchrist

You said that the prospect of future calamity should have no bearing on whether someone is currently happy.

Mitch

@tchrist Lordy, lordy, gosh almighty, hear my leprechauns! They are so loud!

tchrist

Tell that to someone with a terminal illness.

Go ahead, try.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:47

That isn't what I meant. I was referring to hypothetical future calamities. As in the story you linked. One's subjective happiness today does not depend on tomorrow's happiness or lack thereof.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No! No! No! not the Legos! Take it all, even the food off my back the short off my plate, but not ... no you're right. take the Legos. There are more where those came from.

@tchrist I think that lion needs to go see a dentist.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Further down in that page you linked they explain that the story is actually mis-translated and that the Greek word isn't really "happiness" but more like fulfillment, or life-long achievement. In that sense, it would be reasonable to not judge a person's achievements until after they've stopped all actions that could enhance or degrade their reputation. But "happiness" is a subjective, temporary thing.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 whoa dude, if you tell me I'll be happy tomorrow, a little rubs off on me today? Actually, fill yourself with future hypothetical happinesses and you're set.

you be constantly disappointed though.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What you're saying, if I read you right, is "ignorance is bliss."

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, that was the Greek ideal: "Count no man happy until he is dead. At best, he is merely fortunate."

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: Too hot to be sad

posted on July 23, 2013 by sgdi

Sat in a room slowly cooking A man, who was very good looking, Was oppressed by the heat Like a lump of raw meat Without even the vigour for moping

Robusto

15:53

Kleobis and Biton

Kleobis (Cleobis) and Biton () are the names of two human brothers in legend related by Solon to Croesus in Herodotus' Histories. It is also the name conventionally given to a pair of lifesize Archaic Greek statues, or kouroi, which are now in the Delphi Archaeological Museum, at Delphi Greece. The statues date from about 580 BC and come from Argos in the Peloponnese, although they were found at Delphi. The Legend In the legend, Kleobis and Biton were Argives, the sons of Cydippe, a priestess of Hera. Cydippe was travelling from Argos to a festival in honor of Argive Hera. The oxen whi...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Yes. Sorta. You can be really happy today and then really sad tomorrow. That doesn't change the fact that today you might be the happiest person in the world. Or that the day AFTER tomorrow you might again be happy. So what?

Robusto

So nothing. Just clarifying.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Yes. The Greek ideal makes sense iff the word "happy" there does not mean what it normally means. Otherwise I consider the ideal rubbish. Jimmy Savile probably died happy, but would not be said to have achieved eudaimonia by my understanding of that article.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think there is any universally recognized "normal" definition of happiness.

tchrist

16:14

@Mitch It’s from tartarus build-up.

Johan Larsson

16:25

Cat++

tchrist

17:05

SO thinks that perl == regex:

0

Q: BUG: Search for perl* tags accidentally includes regex

When you use a wildcard tag search on questions with any perl* tag, it erroneously includes the regex tag in the search set: Notice the regex tag at the bottom. It should not be there, because contrary to popular belief, perl != regex. :)

Johan Larsson

Is perl used for anything else than string manipulation?

tchrist

hahahahhahhaahhahah

Is C used for anything besides string manipulation?

Is Java used for anything besides string manipulation?

Is a computer used for anything besides string manipulation?

Johan Larsson

ok sry i never used perl

tchrist

No, of course not, since all computer memory is representable as a string.

It’s just a string of bits.

So no.

Johan Larsson

are you in love with Perl?

tchrist

17:17

After 26 years of marriage, I had better be.

Doesn’t mean we haven’t had our arguments, but I’m not one to sleep around.

Johan Larsson

Is Perl the only one?

tchrist

It’s a commitment, not a prison.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, Perl 5 or Perl 6?

Cerberus

►

The underground in Peking, now officially as bad as in Japan.

tchrist

17:33

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perl.

@Cerberus How do you know that’s the metro?

Oh, never mind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist But they are not the same, right? Or so I was told.

tchrist

They are more alike than Java and Javascript, but less alike than awk and perl or C and C++.

And Perl 6 kinda isn’t real.

So when people say Perl, they really do mean Perl 5.

Or earlier.

I mean, there are various implementations that pass this or that percentage of the Perl 6 test suite/spec.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist ha. Java and Javascript are so unalike it's pretty funny that people confuse them as being similar.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My point.

EVery time I try one of the Perl 6 implementations, they run at least 10x slower than regular Perl.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So is Perl 6 relevant then? will it ever be "finished"?

tchrist

17:41

So that’s a non-starter.

Defined “finished”. Or “relevant” for that matter.

Perl is not the next awk.

Perl6 is not the next Perl5.

Java is not the next C.

I hope.

Go may be the next C, however.

In that it’s Ken’s next cool language.

Well, one of several, but this one is really cool. Not that Ken does uncool languages.

Cerberus

In cities, the air is 4 degrees warmer than in the country by day, 8 degrees by night.

tchrist

I heard it was like twice that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, a finished language is one that has essentially enough useful features that you can build relevant programs. a relevant program is one that works and people use it and the program isn't hobbled by major problems stemming from the choice of language. And a relevant language is one that has a sizable number of users writing relevant programs.

Cerberus

During heat weaves, mortality increases by 12 percent.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Performance.

@Cerberus Define “heat wave”.

Cerberus

17:44

I think it's 3 days of 30+ degrees max temp.

tchrist

That’s surely wrong from about 17 different directions.

Try again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist heat wave: a period of time in which the temperature is higher than normal such that 12% more people die than would otherwise die.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There you go.

Cerberus

@tchrist I am talking about Dutch temperatures here.

tchrist

I don’t speak Dutch.

Cerberus

17:45

Then don't comment.

tchrist

What, you think this is the Dutch Temperatures and Maelstroms chat room?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> In the Netherlands, a heat wave is defined as period of at least 5 consecutive days in which the maximum temperature in De Bilt exceeds 25 °C (77 °F), provided that on at least 3 days in this period the maximum temperature in De Bilt exceeds 30 °C (86 °F). This definition of a heat wave is also used in Belgium and Luxembourg.

tchrist

Pissing about 85 degrees it nutty.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What delicate flowers are the Dutch, that they should wilt at 77 degrees!

Wisible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> In the United States, definitions also vary by region; however, a heat wave is usually defined as a period of at least two or more days of excessively hot weather.[7] In the Northeast, a heat wave is typically defined as three consecutive days where the temperature reaches or exceeds 90 °F (32.2 °C), but not always as this ties in with humidity levels to determine a heat index threshold.[8] The same does not apply to drier climates.

> Environment Canada considers a heat wave to occur when there are three consecutive days when the maximum temperature is 32°C or higher.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, right.

tchrist

17:48

We don’t call it a heat wave until the temperature plus humidity exceeds 100.

Something like that.

Everybody considers triple digits hot.

It was as hot as 102 here on my car therm yesterday, and that was in motion, not sitting.

Cerberus

Then more people would die here if we used the Canadian definition, which is at least consistent.

tchrist

The official temperature was a bit lower.

Cerberus

Okay, that didn't come out the way I wanted.

tchrist

But still well into the 90s.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist but it's dry where you are, right?

tchrist

17:49

Which is where it belongs in July.

In the northern hemisphere.

Cerberus

At any rate, air temperature says very little.

What matters is:

1.) exposure to the sun

2.) efficient A/C at home

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, right now it’s kinda drippy, with humidities over 30.

30 is about my limit.

Cerberus

3.) efficient A/C in trains, buses, metros, trams

4.) efficient A/C in offices and schools

tchrist

@Cerberus You’re talking about people confined to indoor living. That doesn’t count.

It will get better as the day goes on.

Wow, I timeported!

Cerberus

Most people have to work or study or do indoors stuff.

And outdoors, in the sun, it's even worse.

tchrist

17:51

That has nothing to do with the weather.

Cerberus

See 1).

tchrist

Wilt.

Cerberus

1 min ago, by Cerberus

At any rate, air temperature says very little.

tchrist

You know what my dewpoint was this morning?

15 degrees.

Fahrenheit, no less.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Microsoft has patented a technique where touch sensors are mounted on the back and the sides of a phone. Then you can share files by rubbing your phones together.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:52

> Part of the mortality observed during a heat wave, however, can be attributed to a so-called "harvesting effect", a term for a short-term forward mortality displacement. It has been observed that for some heat waves, there is a compensatory decrease in overall mortality during the subsequent weeks after a heat wave. Such compensatory reduction in mortality suggests that heat affects especially those so ill that they "would have died in the short term anyway"

@Cerberus kinky

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is no doubt true. But still.

tchrist

Cerberus

What the heck is Microsoft up to?

tchrist

You’ll have to translate that into Frentric on your own.

See what I mean about sticky?

I wonder if it’s going to rain.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Microsoft probably patents tons of things like that, even if they never plan to build it.

tchrist

17:54

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is that Darwinian?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Will they also patent phone condoms for those who don

Cerberus

Oh, God. It appears they haven't patented any particular sensors. The patent is just about having touch sensors in the frame and back of a phone.

David Wallace

't want to catch a virus that way?

Cerberus

What perverted system would allow a silly patent like that?

David Wallace

The one time I miss my apostrophe, you have to tween me!

Cerberus

17:55

@DavidWallace Haha, eww.

tchrist

Perverted?

Who amongst us can judge perverted?

Cerberus

I see no other solution than to abolish the entire system, because it isn't working. But we've been over this.

tchrist

Surely only the U.S. patent office can, since they have a patent on that particular business method.

Robusto

3

A: A question of nuance: 'amiable' and amicable'

Neither is “more friendly”. They aren’t the same, nor are they usually applied to the same situation. People are called amiable if they kindly souls with a friendly and good-natured disposition. Arrangements are called amicable if they are settled with mutual goodwill and without adversarial fr...

@tchrist: Someone tried to copy-edit you.

tchrist

I know.

I rejected it.

Robusto

17:57

So did I.

tchrist

I know.

Would you say people with a kind heart or people with kind hearts?

How many hearts do these people have, anyway?

Cerberus

@tchrist But, see, they can't if they have already been sent home.

Robusto

I would say either. It doesn't matter much. But it's certainly not worth an edit.

tchrist

@Cerberus Why, lack of air conditioning?

Cerberus

T-Mobile is at last rolling out Wifi hotspots in cities for its subscribers, to offload traffic from their 3G network.

@tchrist Because they don't work at home.

tchrist

17:59

All right everybody: put your hands on your heads now.

@Cerberus The lazy gits!

Robusto

No. He means they're inoperable at home.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Do you have Wifi hotspots in cities from certain telcos?

Like the big ones.

tchrist

Is “certain” a euphemism or something?

Cerberus

Well, T-Mobile.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The patent system explicitly allows using old things in new ways as a kind of invention.

tchrist

18:00

I disavow all knowledge of T-Mobile.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How do you mean explicitly? At any rate, it's perverted.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I mean it's been a feature of the patent system for over 100 years.

I have no problem with that patent.

unless they try to use it to block the manufacture of phones with screens on both sides.

for example.

Cerberus

Why not?

What is the purpose of a patent?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus To my knowledge we don't have big wifi hotspots. They tried having one downtown but I think it didn't work well. Wi-fi isn't meant for big networks.

Cerberus

Why not?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:03

@Cerberus to provide monopoly for a novel invention.

Cerberus

And what is the purpose of that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus why not what? why isn't Wi-fi meant for big networks? It simply isn't designed for it. It doesn't scale.

@Cerberus To provide incentive to inventors to invent stuff.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What do you mean it doesn't scale?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I mean the technology fails when you try to make a huge wifi hotspot with lots of users. It doesn't work well. There are huge problems trying to make that work properly.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. And the ultimate purpose of that is to provide society with better technologies as fast as possible, right?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Up to how many users would it still work well? And why can't you simply install more hotspots, then?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:05

It is a well-known problem. They have invented other technologies that ARE designed to make city-wide wireless networks. Technology like 4G. and Wi-Max.

Cerberus

Then why don't they use those more?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sorry, I don't have time to do your research for you. Needless to say, even getting Wifi working at a large installation like a hotel or conference is hard enough.

Cerberus

Wi-Max has been around for a long time, hasn't it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Not as long as wifi.

And don't be surprised if the media reports a large wifi deployment when in reality it is wi-max or something else.

Most people would have no clue.

Cerberus

But why experiment with Wifi hotspots now? I think we had a city-wide network of Wimax I think, where you had to get a special plan at a separate provider.

But it disappeared a few years ago.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:08

I have no idea what the wifi hotspot experiment you are referring to consists of, nor the motivations of the people running the network.

Cerberus

But year, I'm all in favour of building extra 4G masts in city centres. For some reason, telco's can't seem to solve the problem of congestion during rush hour in cities.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There is one thing though: Wifi is in just about every device now. I have no idea how wide-spread wi-max is or who supports it.

Cerberus

Hmm yes.

Do our phones support it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Wi-Fi has issues though. for one thing, it doesn't support hand-off between networks properly.

Cerberus

The current experiment is on the 5Ghz band thing.

So anyway, to return to patents, do you think an invention that doesn't take a lot of money or time to develop needs to be stimulated by a monopoly?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:14

@Cerberus citation needed on "doesn't need time to develop". Ideas do not just arise whenever you want them.

Also, I haven't read the patent in question, so I can't comment on its specific claims. Some patents are pretty stupid. Others are deceptively simple, and truly genius.

Cerberus

I wasn't asking about this patent in particular, just in general.

So you can answer yes or no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

An invention that doesn't take time to develop is probably obvious and thus not worthy of patenting. But the test for patents should be obviousness. Not time.

Cerberus

Why not? Obviousness is so very subjective.

tchrist

0

A: To "Please" or "not to Please"

It really depends. In my opinion unless you're talking about some kind of delay, skip it. Americans, especially, often find it condescending or superfalous. The only place I'd see it being beneficial is if you're asking them to wait for something. Example: Please wait 24 hours while we proces...

Superfalous?

I think he probably spelled that wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

because "time" is subjective too. How much time must you spend on an invention before you can patent it? What if you have a brilliant insight and come to an invention right away?

Cerberus

18:18

Besides, if an "invention" is not obvious, but doesn't take much money or time to come up with, then why is the reward of a monopoly needed? If you don't need to invest anything into its development, then it will be developed anyway, won't it?

tchrist

But I’ve never heard superphallous used to mean a big condescending dickhead before.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Patents are meant to allow an inventor to make money from their invention. Let's say I invent a new kind of hand-dryer that lets you dry your hands in just 2 seconds. Let's say that this hand dryer uses a neat trick which is not obvious at all but is really cheap to manufacture, and I thought of it one day in 10 minutes while drying my hands in the washroom.

Cerberus

> Patents are meant to allow an inventor to make money from their invention.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Because the trick is not obvious, nobody is likely to make this new hand dryer. But if I invest money into making them, then I have the chance to make money.

Cerberus

I think we need to discuss this. Is it an end, or a means?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:22

However, if there is no patent, then the existing hand-dryer makers can just copy me.

So I have no incentive to actually productize my idea.

Cerberus

17 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. And the ultimate purpose of that is to provide society with better technologies as fast as possible, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If I productize my idea, I will waste thousands of dollars building prototypes and securing manufacturing and negotiating sales, etc, and as soon as my competitors get wind of my invention they will copy me, capitalize on their existing customer base, and drive me out of business.

So I won't waste my time and money. Instead I'll just bemoan the slow pace of hand-drying.

The non-obvious invention remains locked away in my head.

Society loses. Hands are damp.

If, on the other hand, I can get a patent, then I will take the risk and manufacture my device and society benefits by getting a better hand dryer. I may not eventually get rich. But the chance of success, the possibility of reward, motivates me to try. And ideally the patent application itself documents the invention so that at least 20 years later someone else will be able to reproduce it, even if I went broke in the interim.

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

17 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. And the ultimate purpose of that is to provide society with better technologies as fast as possible, right?

tchrist

♫  Many are the times I wish I had more money. ♫
♫  Many are the times I wish I had more bread. ♫
    ♫  Oh! to be a millionaire!   ♫
    ♫  Without a worry or a care! ♫
♫  But I’m bringing up the rear instead. ♫

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus why do you keep reposting that. Isn't it clear how patents are meant to motivate inventors? What part didn't you understand?

tchrist

18:28

There, I hope you’re happy now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist we'll never know until we're all dead.

tchrist

It’s one of my old barbershop licks.

I can’t find a recording of it on youtube.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto do you have a digital piano or a real one? Looking for recommendations.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I just wanted to get the fundamentals crystal clear first. You seem unwilling to agree with that line.

Which is your good right, of course.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Digital. Roland FP-1. They have later versions, but I've never found a good reason to upgrade.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

18:33

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 barbicide.

@Robusto mmm, that sounds expensive. :)

tchrist

Kinda.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes. I guess I didn't reply to that message. That is the ultimate purpose. I thought that was understood.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 The thing you want is a real grand-piano hammer-action full keyboard (88 keys) with good piano samples for every note.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto that is true.

I thought I could get that for $500-600 though.

Robusto

The things I like about it are that 1) it's always in tune and 2) I can play it at night with headphones and not bother anybody.

Cerberus

18:34

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And do you also agree that it is the only valid ultimate purpose?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Btw here is a list of WiMax phones

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto Those are both very important.

Mitch

@tchrist It's cognate with 'garofalous': humorous in a self-deprecating manner.

Robusto

Is it as good as a Steinway Model D? Of course not. But it fits in my office and I don't have to have a piano tuner on staff.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it should be understood, but many people lose track of the foundations of a patent system in discussions.

Robusto

18:35

►

This is exactly like mine. I have two pedals though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I will provisionally agree that that is the only valid purpose.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but what about all those people who died and came back to life? That is scientific evidence right there.

Robusto

You can use the built-in speakers OR you can send the output to a high-end stereo. Your choice.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Great.

Now, the things you mentioned. Do they only apply to patentable goods, or also to other things?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch If they come back to life, their happiness waveform returns to a superposition of happy|not-happy

@Cerberus What do you mean

Cerberus

18:37

You are talking about how a company needs to invest money in order to begin production.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto want

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, exactly... wait, what?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Doesn't that also apply to many goods and services that are entirely unrelated to inventions?

Mitch

It's one or the other, make up you mind, man!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes. Running a business is a risk. But the thing is we want to encourage people to invent new things. So that particular business venture has some risk removed through legislation.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

18:40

@Robusto I must do several more tons of work. Thanks for the information.

Robusto

The left pedal switches between una corda and sostenuto, while the right pedal is always the sustain pedal. That's the only drawback. But you can hit a button that simulates a softer, una corda piano sound, except you have to hit that button with your left hand. Otherwise you can't have una corda and sostenuto at the same time.

But, frankly, that's a very small price to pay for having a piano so easy to hand.

tchrist

NYTimes: “Vladimir V. Putin has declared war on homosexuals.”

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Suppose I found out I could buy cheap hand-crafted statuettes in southern Mongolia, and that they would fetch a handsome price in the West. I could set up a trade business and make a lot of money. I would need to make large investments first. But it all works out, and shipping and selling begin. Now suppose a second company finds out where I get my statuettes (which is easy), and they start a competing business, selling the same statuettes in the same way.

tchrist

I’d’ve thunk the Russian nuclear deterrent would have sufficed.

Cerberus

Should I be legally protected from this new company's aping my business model?

tchrist

18:43

Oh gosh, the article’s by Harvey Fierstein of all people!

I didn’t notice that bit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But, if not, I have less of an incentive to set up such a business.

And I need to make large investments!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

too bad

@Cerberus you are not advancing the progress of science and technology

Cerberus

Why too bad? The next time, I might just not start such a business any more.

And no statuettes will be available for you to purchase!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, but my point here is that being forced to make investments does not take away your incentive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can protect yourself by entering into agreements with the statuette vendors that will grant you an exclusive license to a particular market. You can protect yourself by keeping it a trade secret where these statuettes come from.

@Cerberus But trading goods is not at all like manufacturing goods.

Cerberus

18:47

But suppose neither of those options is possible: there are thousands of sellers in Mongolia, and it's easy to find out where and who they are.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it's still about investment and incentive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Then I guess you have to compete on price and service and quality and marketing.

Cerberus

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But it's a matter or risk too.

The kinds of risks are different.

Cerberus

How?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When you trade goods your risk is more limited: you have particular shipments and capital invested. If trading these statuettes stops being profitable you can easily trade other things.

But investing in manufacturing is different. You can't just retool a factory to make anything you want. There are huge capital costs.

Cerberus

18:50

Not quite: I have set up a system of warehouses in Mongolia, procured special trains, built a private railway in some area, established contacts, hired administrators to calculate costs and risks, negotiated with insurance companies...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also the costs of trading will tend to be the same for everyone. Whereas the cost of manufacturing something is very high for a startup and relatively low for an established player.

@Cerberus Bah. If you need all that, then so does your competitor, and they will have to take the same risks as you to get the statue trading off the ground.

Cerberus

A start-up trading company would be unable to set up the trade network I have. Too complicated, too expensive.

Johan Larsson

What are you trading?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is true. But there is high demand in Europe, so it's worth it. And it will take my competitor at least six months to set up the same trade. And I will be more experienced, so I can probably do it more efficiently by then than I can now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes. However the reverse is true in most inventions.

Cerberus

18:53

And I can maybe add some other products from Mongolia to differentiate my business model, make it more attractive for Europeans: "get a free Mongolian hairclip with your statuette!".

Mitch

@Robusto That sounds like an ultimatum.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How so?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

An existing hand-dryer manufacturer might be able to duplicate your invention really easily, then out-compete you with their mature manufacturing and sales pipelines.

Mitch

@Cerberus Holy crap you speciesist! Apes are some of my best friends!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Invention is an up-front cost. Not an ongoing cost. If the invention is easy to copy, the big players in the market will copy it ans steal your business.

Robusto

18:54

@Mitch I meant it in a nice way.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What about the self-drying hand process that was recently discovered and spread through 30 minute prodcut placement ads?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How is it an up-front cost if the invention took you only 1 minute to come up with?

Mitch

@Robusto "As your father, I love you or you will get cake!"

Robusto

You're not my father.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hey, I didn't say it was bad in any way! Culture is all about imitation and copying. Without it, it withers and dies.

Mitch

18:56

Argh... cake! who mentioned cake?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The point is not that it only took ME one minute to come up with it. The point is that all the hard part happens up front. After that it's about manufacturing and sales. The other guys have spent INFINITE time trying to invent this. Or as good as infinite.

Cerberus

@Mitch You did!

Mitch

@Robusto OK, let's go with that for now.

@Cerberus Nobody is original.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But the "hard part" comes in any kind of business, not just business related to inventions, as I showed you with the trade example.

@Mitch Zactly.

Mitch

@Cerberus Well,then, it was an excellent suggestion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:58

@Cerberus No. in your example the hard part was finding the statuettes in the first place.

Mitch

Cookies will do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

After that, the work is the same for all the traders.

With the invention, the manufacturing and sales part is the same for everyone. The hard part is the invention itself. Once it's made, it's trivially copied by anyone who can get their hands on it.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That wasn't hard: it took just ten minutes after coming across a Mongolian statuette at a Chinese market to find out where they were made.

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