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12:05 AM
@gnat Well, thats because SO has given up sending things to us...
Q: Where can I find a good article or discussion about why programmers should work for free?

user2600846My name is T.C. Corrigan. I'm a digital media researcher at Cal State University, San Bernardino. I'm interested in the phenomenon of people that work for free in the hopes of securing future employment opportunities. Specifically, I'm looking for articles or online discussions that examine wheth...

@user2600846 not sure, perhaps workplace.stackexchange.com? — bengoesboom 3 hours ago
12:31 AM
@JimmyHoffa btw, you see how having the right answer to the right time gives you bunches of rep? Think of how many people are searching for 92237... today.
12:55 AM
@MichaelT Ah good point, I very nearly didn't answer the question because it's totally one of those "We didn't write the code, how should we know" sorts of things, but I figured there's no harm in mentioning the likelihoods every programmer thinks when they see it
@MichaelT and a migration of a down-voted question yesterday made me pop 201 too before the day officially rolled over
1:15 AM
@Ampt comment flags don't count towards mod's flag counts (but they do count towards a users) so they're basically work for mods that they don't get rewarded for.
Dang, lost 60 rep to the arrogant programmers removal, oh well it was a crap question.
1:37 AM
If I see one more person conflating CPS and JavaScript I'll sprout a unicorn horn and bash my own skull in with it
@JimmyHoffa you okay?
@WorldEngineer Grand, but as someone who both enjoys JavaScript as a language and has worked hard to understand some of these underlying concepts a little deeper, the average quality of JavaScript related questions and answers makes me subconciously carve things...like voodoo dolls and weeping children
It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of trained knowledgeable engineers are not in the JavaScript space, so the "I read a tutorial, I'm a programmer!" effect is terribly multiplied. There's plenty of that for C# too; but it's at least balanced out by the countless Robert Harvey's out there
@JimmyHoffa well I'm trying to carve my way into that space
@WorldEngineer you know what CPS is yeah?
Continuation Passing Style if I had to wager a guess
1:51 AM
Tail meet donkey
And you know what it is ?
it's where you have a set of functions and you basically run down the chain, passing return to return to return all the way back up
they have to be single argument functions
more or less
var callSomeIO = function(continueOnThankyou) {
  //do some shit, like IO
how is that mind blowing?
It's simpler than that, CPS is just higher order functions, that require you to tell them what happens when they're done
It's not, and it's annoying to use because you have to call a function, and pass a parameter to it that's a function that takes a parameter that's a function that takes a parameter that's a function
ohhhh I'm calling a function...from within a function... that was a parameter...ohhhhh
it's the Java
it's rotted their brains
1:54 AM
I actually don't loathe Java in the slightest
beyond just being a tad verbose
Yeah, that's basically my take as well
also I realized what PHP is
it's to web dev as Matlab is to SciComp
either way, everyone who picks up JavaScript anymore has this sense that CPS is like a part of javascript, that just is how JavaScript works because they're all picking up Node.JS (which is all CPS which annoys the crap out of me because many languages before them solve asynchrony without CPS already)
and when I say node.JS is all CPS, I just mean; it's a library that's CPS. it provides a large IO library that allows you to hand in continuations (just like .NET 1.1 back in 2001, or every FP language for decades before, but oh wait, JavaScript invented CPS)
Just like C# invented MVC
or Objective-C
1:57 AM
Heh yeah
I was reading GoF
it's in there
it dates back to at least Smalltalk
Yeah, it was invented back in PARC, there's some neat papers online from back in the day from when the fella who actually put it together there was doing the initial research on it, his original papers presenting it etc
Cool reading, makes you realize how unbelievably far ahead of everyone those PARC guys were
Another rant on what JS isn't
2:01 AM
@WorldEngineer I'll have to read that closely; I'm a strong believer that it's a LISP...
(scheme, same difference)
@JimmyHoffa I think he's arguing that we should use JS as JS and not as some other something
@WorldEngineer Using JS as JS is what caused the internet of the 90's, why don't we just use "html as html" while we're at it, what is all this templating garbage??
> Usually, touching Scheme or Smalltalk inflicts an incurable disease whose primary symptom is involuntary sneering and derisive snorting in the presence of any other language. Somehow, Crockford managed to fight off his infection, tear into JavaScript, and gaze deep into the abyss at its center.
That's pretty awesome
(Where do you always find all these interesting blog posts? I only ever seem to get this stuff from other people... only occasionally I find a good blogger who I'll follow like atwood/spolsky/yegge/james iry)
Also, it's a bit ballsy to clearly know crockford proper, and still proclaim he was wrong when he said JavaScript is a Scheme...
much of it I find by digging through the backlog of Hacker News
Sometimes SO posts or other things
> And, honestly, almost no one knows enough Scheme to tell if it’s true or not anyway.
(opinion yeah)
mod_function:: opinion -> canon -> law
2:11 AM
I'll admit to this, but what I do know tells me honestly; feature-for-feature the difference is bloody small. Granted no macros, which are damn cool, but otherwise I have a hard time spotting the difference in featureset
@JimmyHoffa what's the learning curve on emacs?
@WorldEngineer Less significant than it had seemed the countless times I accidentally opened it or was forced to edit something through emacs
It appears f_c$ing alien, and it tries to make you get used to all sorts of just bizarre shit, but I use xemacs and have no problems. It has modes for all varieties of languages so it handles the tabbing for you automatically which is nice, it has a way of super easily modifying the window layout so you have files on the right and left or top and bottom or combinations there of. Most languages have a way of compiling/executing the code you have in you buffer
I tried Vim a few times, never found it usable.
Honestly, I memorized like 3 hot key combinations to get going and had no problems after that, from then on I just picked up a few more sparsely as they became relevant, as time progresses (damn I just realized started learning haskell over 2 years ago...that's just sad considering how poorly I've done on it) you'll get more hot-keys and it'll become gooder
@WorldEngineer Ah, vi(m) is super easy. I love it as a general text editor but I can't see it as an IDE, but @MichaelT could surely tell you how great it is for that
given that I use Gedit and IDLE at the moment
it's kind of "whatever" for me
2:21 AM
it's important to know vi basic commands for when you're SSHing into machines
@JimmyHoffa true
just knowing the basic i/a escape d dd :w :q :wq! is all you need
that much I know
Then you're fine in my book, again @MichaelT could probably tell you how it's a great IDE (I've known many people who love VI for development, but I can't think of one I met in real life who was into emacs; likely one of the LISPers I used to work with was I guess)
I'm largely ambivalent toward most of the computing holy wars
2:24 AM
for emacs, the trick and slight annoyance is that each language has a few specific hotkeys for it where I kind of wish the ones I learned for haskell were the same for all the others
@WorldEngineer VI vs emacs hasn't been a holy war for a long long time, they joined up as pals when they realized both of them are not even used anymore
(probably 10-15 years ago)
@JimmyHoffa bear in mind that my father was a Systems Admin for SGI 15 years ago.
heh fair enough
Learn EMACS though, you can always fall back on it in any language, I use it for everything outside of visual studio (if I'm meddling with a script or what not etc) so it's actually been useful at work. All you really need to learn is basically how to cut (C-w)/copy(m-w)/paste(C-y)/delete(C-k)/save(C-x,C-s) and then beyond that the specific hotkeys to the language you're playing in like in Haskell execute-in-a-window-below-the-code(C-c,C-l) oh and moving windows next(C-x,right arrow)/previous
and how to recognize what all this C-bla m-bla stuff means (C-bla is ctrl+key, c-bla,c-bla is ctrl+key then ctrl+key, or C-bla,blabla is ctrl+key then "blabla" without ctrl, m- just means alt instead of ctrl)
small hand full of hot keys, and they get ingrained really quick (took me like a night of haskelling to get used to them)
@JimmyHoffa I realized that I could easily do a Blackjack or Baccarat or stripped down Poker app for my GUI presentation
with xemacs I move the cursor using arrows, ctrl+arrows, home/end and mouse just like normal, though all tutorials go on and on about how you should use the homerow keys to move. Perhaps I'll get there some day, but without them I still find emacs way helpful
@JimmyHoffa given that I don't plan to use a keypunch anytime soon...I think I'll use arrows
2:39 AM
@WorldEngineer that would work great.
Baccarat is good because it effectively requires no AI
another option would be do very basic network play
@JimmyHoffa I have this insane idea for an April Fool's thing next year
but I've got to flesh it out fully before I can complete it.
oh well, back burner for the time being anway
@JimmyHoffa what in your mind in terms of a definite set of characteristics makes a language "Hipster"?
2:54 AM
@WorldEngineer That's all just in joke, as much as there is a "hipster" culture out there, and there may be a vin diagram with languages, it's totally irrelevant. I've worked with and currently work with hipsters, I find them as easy if not easier to work with than many others (they at least tend to like considering newer ideas, which is more than can be said for anyone @psr is dealing with) and more over, there's really no overlap between them and languages that effects a language.
If you looked at languages based on the cultures that surround them, you'd try really hard to un-know javascript
I live in the "hipster" part of Atlanta for the most part.
that being said, I did see a guy with a plaid shirt, skinny jeans, vans (or similar), black rimmed squarish glasses, a trucker cap, a black mustache and stubble at the grocery store today...
what-the-F?? @WorldEngineer I just looked a little further on that blog post and the guy claims 9 traits of scheme that JS only lines up with 3 of? Bull. Totall bollocks. JS lines up with all but 2-3 of them
I'm curious as to what his agenda is.
one of them is questionable just because tail-call-optimization is an implementation detail; I don't know if any JS implementations do it. But admitably it's not homoiconic and doesn't have macros, outside of that and potentially TCO, it's got everything he lists
beyond just whinging about JS
3:02 AM
it is lexically scoped (he says it's not, though he rightly puts lexical scopes up there at the top of his scheme list of what makes scheme what it is) but how can he possibly say JS is not lexically scoped??
Oh and the distaste for mutation, he's got JS there; it's too imperative and assignment based to claim any distaste for that
anywho, I'm going to go pour another rum and coke and enjoy the Skyrim I got on super sale on steam the other day while watching whose line is it anyway with the wife (that's still on tv! what??)
@JimmyHoffa Relaunch
also that saves me the question of what you do when you're not coding.
4 hours later…
6:44 AM
@gnat Research, huh, so, what do you want me to talk about? Do you want me to turn this question into a book about my 10 years study of programming languages? Maybe you want to know about the language I implemented? Maybe you want a summary of Haskell, JavaScript, Python, Shell, C, C++ and so on, all of which don't have this feature? Or what do you want? Seriously? I don't even have patience for that kind of questioning anymore. My question is perfectly fine the way it is. Someone always complains. Regardless of the question, the votes, que answers. Not good enough. Someone always does it. — Dokkat 12 mins ago
is there a canned comment / close reason / meta discussion to address is there a kind questions?
4 hours later…
10:22 AM
serves me right to suffer - SO CV reviewer blues
Q: Strongly separate duplicates from "the rest" in close votes review queue

gnatUpdate: I wish I could downvote decline justification twice. "You can already filter down by close reason." Oh really, Do you see many reviewers using filter? Do you see Steward badges awarded for Close Votes as frequently as these would be to obtain with appropriately filtered review queue? H...

> Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind decline with a reasonable explanation. But this one... it just doesn't fly...
10:40 AM
since this: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/205333/… i'm posting it here, but dont know if correct. how do i make new line into chat using Enter button ? because it will send message. ....
@Rapier ping @JimmyHoffa - Haskell sucks :)
@Rapier you mentioned Scala - even if you won't plan using it, consider at least reading this book,
Jul 15 at 23:50, by gnat
David Pollak

The open source Scala language is a Java-based dynamic scripting, functional programming language. Moreover, this highly scalable scripting language lends itself well to building cloud-based/deliverable Software as a Service (SaaS) online applications. Written by Lift Scala web framework founder and lead Dave Pollak, Beginning Scala takes a down-to-earth approach to teaching Scala that leads you through simple examples that can be combined to build complex, scalable systems and applications. This book introduces you to the Scala programming language and then guides you through Scala constructs and libraries that allow small and large teams to assemble small components into high-performance, scalable systems. You will learn why Scala is becoming the language of choice for Web 2.0 companies such as Twitter as well as enterprises such as Seimens and SAP. What you’ll learn Get running with the Scala programming language for functional Java, Java-based, and cloud-based/deliverable applications development, and more. Understand the basic syntax and mechanisms for writing Scala programs. Discover the techniques for and advantages of using immutable data structures. Create functional programming techniques for defining and managing concurrency. Use a complex type system and traits to define object-oriented programs. Work with Scala constructs and libraries that allow teams of any size to assemble small components into high-performance, scalable system
As you mentioned that you're pure beginner, it could be helpful to look at things from a perspective of a guy like author of this book:
> I’ve written commercial code in 6502 assembler, BASIC, Pascal, C, C++, Objective-C, Java, C#, Visual Basic, Smalltalk, Ruby, JavaScript, and Scala...
11:10 AM
"What a Chief Software Architect looks for in a job applicant..." okie dokie, there we go,
@user96307 well another skill that prospective Chief Software Architect could look for is consistency in analyzing topics at hand. Say, they can suggest you to start with the statement like "Why is there an interview tag but all interview questions will get closed anyway?" and see how would you proceed discussing this statement — gnat 2 mins ago
@gnat i dont know how works this chat exactly, but i dont see a name of book in that 2 line description or dont know what did u mean exactly
11:27 AM
@Rapier name is Beginning Scala author David Pollak
12:07 PM
@Rapier here is a screen shot of what I thought you will see in chat, 4 messages total: i.stack.imgur.com/fAwFm.png - did you saw it differently?
12:46 PM
i see it same as in screen. but i was thinking there is some hidden clicks, which would expand the text
@Rapier Well there are no hidden clicks to expand, but large font words "Beginning Scala (Expert's Voice in Open Source)" are actually a link that would bring you to site (Amazon), from where that piece was collapsed. This is so called "onebox" feature of SE chat, explained eg here: meta.stackoverflow.com/tags/onebox/info
...and at Amazon page, in turn, there you need to click "Show more" under book description to see the full description (Amazon collapses it by default)
ok np and what about making new line in text writing ? has this something similar like skype, to do with ctrl+enter ?
2 hours later…
2:53 PM
Hi everyone!
I was wondering if someone could recommend me a ranking similarity method, preferably one I could cite (eg from a peer-reviewed paper)
It's a simple case of comparing two order lists
containing tuples with 2 attributes: a name and a numeric value
the reference would be (say): [(a, 100), (b, 90), (c, 70) ....]
and the result could be [(b, 95), (a, 80), (z, 10)...]
it seems trivial to implement, but I can't find a "citable" method...
I'm confused by your example.. The classic simple way to compare an ordered set of points (pairs) is cosine difference
thanks in advance
Can you explain the context maybe? That'd help me recommend a reference
2:58 PM
I'm trying a new aggregation algorithm
and I have a "true" result which would give me (say) the first list
my algorith would return another list
I would like to say "the result from the new algorithm is 98% similar to the expected"
98% would be for instance, all the "ids" are the same (in order)
but the numeric value might be slightly different in one them
Ah so you have the expected result and you want to compare it to your algorithms predictions for accuracy?
That's what I'm gathering
but ranking and score, both have impact
in a classical IR accuracy
ranking doesn't matter, and I wanted a method where it does
I'll have a look, thanks a lot!
Yes, I can see they mention Pearson's coef (which I had look)
thanks again
Anytime, I'd also consider simply modifying your tuples to reflect rank and then use IR accuracy..
Or even score once with actual scores, score again with ranks instead of scores then take a weighted average of the 2
3:06 PM
That's a good idea :)
As I said, it's not the most complex problem, but I wanted to reuse a "common" method to avoid having to construct proof of my own (which wouldn't be difficult, but perhaps just reinventig the wheel)
That's fair, yes most recommender systems with item-item or user-user algorithms include some form of ranking
so those would be a good place to poke
cool, gonna do some reading :) thanks!
@YannisRizos Hello
Hello @jozefg @RuiVieira
How are you on this fine saturday?
3:12 PM
Good to see some algorithmic talk in here, lately it's been all about tequila (and that's my fault ;)
:P Yeah I can't contribute much to that sort of discussion
@jozefg Typical Sat afternoon, scanning through Programmers & History to find gems I missed during the week. And possibly answer a question or two, it's been almost a month since I posted an answer...
Nice, I should answer here more often..
@Rapier @gnat Haskell rules Scala, well I still have no idea why they made Scala.... An all new syntax to do things 3 known syntaxes are already available for... Why?
@jozefg Yes, you should, we need more answers like this one. Clear, precise, educative, on a concept that baffles newer developers. Here's an upvote for you.
@JimmyHoffa Because Haskell.
3:23 PM
@JimmyHoffa Scala is a nice language :) Even SPJ says so
and don't feed me that "to make Java developers comfy" tripe nothing about Scala is comfortable to a Java d
@YannisRizos Thank you :)
@JimmyHoffa Have you seen the paper on backpack yet? It's about strapping a real module system on Haskell :) Which frankly it desperately needs
3:39 PM
Hi @YannisRizos
@RuiVieira You should ask about the ranking similarity method you are looking for on the main site (it would also be on topic on cs.stackexchange.com).
3:56 PM
@jozefg No, I'll have to look into that
Yeah, everyone recognizes Haskell's module system is...lacking...
The thing that annoys me about Scala is I just don't see why they had to come up with some totally new arbitrary syntax for a language that's got nothing Clojure or F# don't have, when both of them had the sense to use a syntax people know.
I think you're looking too much at the syntax, I don't really like Scala's syntax but it has a lot of cool concepts
That said, there's quite a few really smart folks out there I respect who speak well of Scala, I'm sure it's a good language and such, just annoying heh. james-iry.blogspot.com is however convincing that it's likely a good language
@jozefg perhaps I missed something, in my review I didn't see anything it had that was missing from F#, and as for Clojure, well, macros, so yeah...
Other than traits, I'm not sure if F# has those off hand
Well it's a purely object orient language..
it has novel pattern matching
java interop
@Rapier I was being a bit tongue in cheek btw, if you know no languages, I suggest Scheme, unless you don't really know how a computer works generally, in which case I'd suggest C just to understand how the memory and cpu work together etc
@jozefg have you looked at F# much?
or OCaml for that matter
I write a lot of OCaml
The object system in Scala is much less... bolted on
4:07 PM
@jozefg Ah... Iduno I find the object system feels just fine, but if Scala's object system is more natural than that's the best excuse I've heard for bothering with it yet
@YannisRizos thanks. I had browse. I'm doing some catch up on IR atm :)
@JimmyHoffa so i think i will pick C. what is best IDE for C lang and what compilator (is it included ? ) have to i use, if i want make code not only for windows? is possible to make new line with Enter button, without sending a message ? and how did u wrote that message adressed to me, that it made sound on my side ? just @nick ?
Yeah, @nick and
shift+enter will create a new line
O_o C for a beginner?
@jozefg call me crazy, but I think basic C is a good way of learning how the computer actually works
4:17 PM
will it also make sound if i dont write nick manually, bust just go cursor on your last post and pick: reply to this message ?
Scheme is a best starter if you already vaguely know how a computer operates
@Rapier yes
@jozefg Does that seem wrong to you?
ok what about that IDE and compilator pls ? for C
I've always thought that high level of abstraction (Scheme, Python (kinda)) is the best way to learn to program. Details like memory management are only barriers to understanding higher level concepts like algorithms, datastructures etc
@Rapier The chat FAQ explains most of chat's features. It's not complete, but it's worth reading.
@jozefg I started out with C. Granted, it was a different century back then, but still...
@YannisRizos I started in C++, after literally several years of pain, I realized that if a language forces you to focus more on the language than your program, it's illsuited for teaching. Not necessarily a bad language, but not one for a beginner
4:24 PM
@jozefg I completely agree, I suppose how a computer actually works may be less relevant, but just the ultra-basics of what's going on underneath seems to me like a good (quick) precursor. Perhaps I'm wrong though, I'm not sure on that.
Granted working in scheme and such absolutely none of that matters
@Rapier I take it back, learn Scheme first, can't go wrong, learning C first can quickly go wrong
Just my 2 cents, but I agree with @jozefg. IMHO the best way to learn how to program and the best way to learn how computers work should be two different things.
So Scheme, yeah :)
I'm coming from the perspective of someone who works in plt and formal verification: Computers are horribly messy, concepts are very simple. That's why I advocate high level languages that get you closer to idealized concepts. Obviously everything leaks to some degree but might as well keep them innocent a bit longer :)
1 hour ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
and don't feed me that "to make Java developers comfy" tripe nothing about Scala is comfortable to a Java d
@JimmyHoffa you missed just one word there to get it right, see it in italic font: "to make Java language developers comfy". Check the history of Odersky (eg in that same "Beginning Scala" book), before inventing Scala, he lead development of javac and GJ early generics project at Sun...
...He was grown tired of limitations he had to comply with to keep these stinkin' Java developers comfortable, their comfort was the last thing he was interested in, he mostly wanted to just squeeze as much of cool syntactic and inference tricks as possible over JVM - and, as you may guess...
...as a lead of javac / GC dev he certainly knew a bit or two of what is possible to squeeze there (but what he could not do because of Java-the-language conformance requirements). Given his background, you'd rather think of Scala as of experiment to max out capabilities of compiler to support whatever syntax one wants...
...think of a code written like Ruby, plus compiler smart enough to infer all the involved type checks. Infer - in compile time (!), without these boring invocations of instanceof and casts in runtime
Why didn't they kept the name Pizza? It's much better than "Scala" ;P
Isn't scala "Scalable language" or something?
4:36 PM
@RuiVieira @jozefg right I think these were marketing stuff. I wrote "experiment in...", but per what I read he also wanted it to be popular / widely used. That explains Java interoperability - to ride over its huge libraries. Name change was in the same lines. Scala -> scalable -> attractive buzzword for enterprise CEO / architects, as opposed to "childish" Pizza. I've heard Groovy had adoption issues due to funny name...
Think of PHB yawning: "this can't be serious"
1: marvelous, wonderful, excellent <felt that this poetry was … enjoyable, not to mention groovy — R. M. Muccigrosso>
2: hip, trendy <a younger and groovier audience — Robert MacKenzie>
Groovy has a few other childish attributes eg one of the most commonly used classes being called gstring... etc
@gnat, I know. Groovy has that problem. It's not a business oriented name.
but on the other hand, initially there were complaints about the name "git" as well.
it could be worse of course (eg brainfuck)
Haskell wasn't named "curry" due to fear of bad jokes about it :)
@jozefg yup. Today, nobody cares anymore, since it has broke through into establishment - despite all that, but, a bit later because of that. Odersky worked around this from the very beginning... maybe because he learned about the way of thinking of corporate architects while leading javac/GJ in "Sun corporation"
Indeed, there's no doubt that Odersky what he was doing. IMO he did an amazing job of unifying 2 fairly distant concepts and it seems like a lot of people agree with me; it's gaining a good amount of love these days
4:43 PM
Do you guys think Java 8 lambda's etc will take a bit of Scala's users?
Martin Odersky (born 5 September 1958) is a German computer scientist and professor of programming methods at EPFL in Switzerland. He specializes in code analysis and programming languages. He designed the Scala programming language and Generic Java, and built the current generation of javac, the Java compiler. In 2007 he was inducted as a Fellow of the Association for Computing Machinery. In 1989, he received his Ph.D. from ETH Zurich under the supervision of Niklaus Wirth, who is best known as the designer of several programming languages (including Pascal). He did postdoctoral work a...
so again. scheme, scala, haskell ? we were not comparing just C with scheme. pls lmk
@Rapier Scheme is made for learning, Scala is made for doing, Haskell is made for thinking (and sometimes doing)
The question is what you want out of your functional language.
There is an online course on Scala from this Martin Odersky. I don't remeber either on Coursera or Edx.
4:47 PM
first of all, i must overcome my mind and try think as programmer. because many ppl told me that learning programming lang, wont make me a programmer.
@Rapier I'd recommend working through SICP, You'll learn Scheme and how to think "Like a programmer"
sicp is IDE ?
SICP == Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
i'm lost
Ok, SICP is a book
4:49 PM
@Rapier it's a book
with a massive number of examples and exercises
Is this book relevant today?
Some of the concepts are fundamental
Declarative programming and logical thinking never go out of fashion :)
so I would say, ys
4:50 PM
Do I have to know algorithms for that book? Or it teaches ones?
It assumes no prior knowledge
it won't formally teach algorithms, but will teach algorithmic thinking which tends to be just as, if not more, important
sounds like a cinch
Indeed, it was written by various MIT profs for teaching so it's got some big names behind it
@jozefg, I've heard MIT replaced scheme with Python for introductory courses...
I think there is a course given by Sussmann (the author) at MIT OCW
@RuiVieira: that's true
4:55 PM
Nevertheless SICP is one the best book for introduction to programming
@RuiVieira They have, my uni still teaches scheme for first years :)
(with SICP woo!)
@jozefg good :) I've had smalltalk for introductory classes. I have to admit it was fun.
Can you use scheme for web development, like you use Python in Django?
@Graduate probably. Does it have to be scheme? Or some LISP/Scheme family?
I'm just corious.
4:59 PM
@Graduate You can choose possibly hundreds of frameworks with Clojure
@gnat you wanna see inference, check out Haskell, you don't need to sell me on the value of inference
@Graduate I've used racket for webdev
It's very pleasant
i heard too that MIT switched from scheme to python o_O
@jozefg: Is Clojure somewhat better that Python for webdev?
@Graduate For some definition of better yes. It depends on the project, person, and scale
by the same reasoning clojure is sometimes worse
5:03 PM
I know that Reddit.com was initially written on Lisp.
Yes. It's written in python now, as a counter example, twitter was originally written in ruby and is switching to Scala
It's pretty much impossible to assert that X is strictly better than Y.
Unless that Y is cobol arguably.
@jozefg Cobol rules!! It even has its own "rails" framework coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM
Oh good lord O_o... I need to go shower in hand sanitizer now
ok so you say me:
1, get book SICP in english only ? ( i'm afraid my english skills are not enough for it and cant find translation to my lang)
2, do the things from book in Scheme lanf ?
3, where do i get scheme IDE or compiler or dont know ? (is it paid ?)
@Rapier as for 3 - Racket racket-lang.org, it's free
5:09 PM
@RuiVieira is it best sollution ? like is better something paid ?
1. What's your native language? There may be some translation. I'm afraid most programming books are very english only :/
2. I'd stick with Scheme since the book is geared towards Scheme, much less friction
3. As for the, I'll second @RuiVieira. I use Racket for my lispy stuff.
Dr.Racket is a fantastic environment for a beginner
Who studied Calculus on Apostol's books in college?
@Rapier: doubt it. It is pretty state of the art. As you can leverage later on and do serious development with it (using planet.racket-lang.org for instance)
If you are feeling minimalistic, go for emacs witout X :)
But seriously, Racket is good
@Graduate I did :)
Or "carried it with me" would be more accurate
I'm ordering a few new books now (Yayyy geek out!)
@RuiVieira: Did you master calculus with them?
5:17 PM
@Graduate, that was another life. I was doing Physics, then I switched to CS.
But it is a quite comprehensive and good textbook as far as I remember.
A: When can you call yourself good at language X?

FishtoasterThere's a few good answers to this already, so I'll just contribute this:

Terrible answer but I can't stop laughing
1, slovak
2, so book is about scheme. k
3, i will download IDE/compiler from here racket-lang.org

and that is all what i need ?
@gnat I find Haskell a very pleasant place to think about algorithms, new abstractions, computer science in general. It's certainly a mind bending language at first :)
@maple_shaft onebox has eaten fun stuff, I posted it separately
5:32 PM
@gnat Plus I like to see the interesting parallels with category theory, even though haskell kinda abuses it
@jozefg new abstractions interesting. For example? You see, I am not that used to think of abstractions a concrete example of an abstraction would be helpful. You see, probably Java has eaten my abstract thinking habits :)
@gnat FRP, data parallelism, tools like lens and conduits, structuers like zippers, even typeclasses, all of these are hard to find good support for in other languages
@jozefg FRP stands for Functional reactive programming right?
@gnat Yup, pretty cool if you've never seen it before
@jozefg never seen, that's right. Reading wikipedia now...
5:37 PM
If you want to look at it more in depth I'd recommend conal elliots work
yes that's indeed interesting. and indeed difficult to think of in the context of language like java (and, from what I learned so far I think in the context of scala too)
Scala less so, but yes I'd always recommend at least learning a bit of Haskell, nonstrictness is always mind breaking too
@jozefg Category theory got to be a good food for thought too. I am reading (in wikipedia) about subtle differences from math, that certainly must be a good practice for "brain muscles". I guess I am getting at what you meant with Haskell-is-for-thinking, that makes sense indeed
Yeah :) It's also nice because with stuff like Hackage + FPcomplete, I can say that haskell is for doing too. Personally a combination of Haskell + Python/Ruby comprises all my software
Some Coq as well
5:56 PM
heh "some examples of what it made you think of?" At main site I'd DV and VtC question like that in a heartbeat :)
Q: Resource questions - automatic close?

OdedBook (or resource) on Java bytecode was recently asked. I voted to close immediately, without really reading (or understanding) much of of the question. Should questions that request resources get automatic close votes from members such as myself?

Man I've never gotten starred before in chat, this is very exciting :D
@jozefg you know, there are even badges for being starred. :) Guess that makes it even more exciting
Oh boy haha
if it's your first star indeed, expect a badge... with maybe some caching delay
caching, a proven way to optimize user complaints. - It doesn't work!!! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work!! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work. - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't matter.gnat Jul 17 at 10:37
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