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07:45
22
Q: Is the EU Settlement Scheme legal?

LeoI moved to the UK 20 years ago when I was a 14-year-old child. I settled here - studied, worked, started my own business, had kids and so on. Because of the EU membership, I was guaranteed equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax ad...

Unlike the two answers already written, I'd say that it is not "discrimination". Why? According to the declaration of human rights, everybody is allowed to live in the country of his citizenship. However, there is no right to live in a foreign country - neither for you, nor for people with British citizenship.
You're worried about the government having your name in a register? How exactly do you think you're getting your tax bills?
Leo
Leo
@MSalters - as far as I am aware, the tax office does not store people citizenship and does not discriminate...
It is worth noting that the UK is unusual in not already having that register. In many other EU countries everyone has to register with the local government, the police, or both.
Leo
Leo
@PeterTaylor - do you know what countries? any references? if this is the case, have there been any legal challenges in these countries?
07:45
Here in Germany everybody must register oneself at the city where he or she is living. In Austria this is also mandatory. In Germany it's also mandatory to register oneself at the city where someone has a second apartment.
Leo
Leo
@MartinRosenau - what are the repercussions of not registering?
Tim
Tim
@Leo search “anmeldung” thelocal.de/20190415/… - “you’ll be unable to do much of the following: open a bank account, get certain kinds of jobs, apply for a visa or residence permit, get a tax number, connect to the internet, signup for a gym membership and enrol in university or school.”
@Leo maybe the tax office doesn’t store your citizenship (I have no idea of the UK tax office although where I live the tax office would have to know) but certainly the government has on file that you do not have British citizenship? At the very least they have records of everyone who does (so not you) and a record of everyone who lives in Britain; the difference in the two lists is the list of foreign nationals living in Britain.
Leo
Leo
@11684 - what you suggest makes sense but I am not sure the UK government has lists that are accurate enough to work out this with any degree of accuracy...
@MartinRosenau and @PeterTaylor - Anmeldung means that by law, both foreigners and Germans are required to register at the local Residence Registration office... This seems much fairer to me and I would not consider it discriminatory.
In what way does registering cause you harm and distress? It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to require foreign residents to register their presence in the country, especially during Brexit?
Leo
Leo
07:45
@Gertsen - there is a real risk for more systematic discriminatory acts on non-british residents... Germany in the 1930s springs to mind...
@Leo Thanks for elaborating. I guess I'm not paranoid enough to imagine that part of history repeating itself in Britain.
Did you move to the UK from another EU country or somewhere else? Have you tried to apply for citizenship? (20 years should be enough to get it)
Leo
Leo
@bobsburner - I can get citizenship but I don't want to... I don't share some British values, I don't have the time and I don't want to pay for it.
@Leo "This seems much fairer..." As I already wrote, it is not only the EU citizens who'll have a lot of problems if they want to live in GB. It's also the GB citizens who'll have a lot of problems if the want to live in the EU. So both GB and EU citizens will have a lot of problems if they want to live on the "wrong side of the border". And foreigners (even EU citizens) who want to live in Germany have a lot more paperwork to do than Germans...
@11684 actually the government has no such lists - which causes no end of problems. At best they can reconstruct them from available proxies. The only list that is definitively tracked is non-EU resident immigrants, who are made to have biometric ID cards.
07:45
@Leo, here in Spain all residents (Spanish, EU, other) are required to register with the local council; and non-Spanish residents are also required to register with the national police, who have two registers. I'm currently on the register of EU citizens resident in Spain, and if Brexit happens then I'll have 18 months to transfer my registration to the register of non-EU citizens resident in Spain.
@Leo Consider editing your question to include that. (not wanting to "naturalize" for some reason)
Leo
Leo
@bobsburner - thank you for the suggestion, i have updated the question.
@Leo "Germany in the 1930s springs to mind..." No, it doesn't. It's perfectly normal for a country to want to keep a register of who lives in it and it's frankly quite disconcerting that the UK wouldn't have this already. It's the standard pretty much anywhere in Europe, most likely in your own home country as well. In Italy I have to tell the government exactly where I live in order to get even the most basic services, even though I'm Italian. Is that a human rights violation as well? No, of course it isn't.
Leo
Leo
@Demonblack - that is exactly the point... if everyone needs to be on the register then it is not discrimination.
@Demonblack - also registering is not the same as applying... My settled status application could be refused by the Home Office.
@Leo The register for foreign nationals is different from the register for Italian citizens, and foreign nationals can be denied residency for a whole variety of reasons. This doesn't apply to EU citizens because of the Maastricht treaty, but if Italy were to leave the EU then every non-Italian would have to apply for the residency permit, just like in the case of brexit. This is no human rights violation simply because "living in Italy" is not a human right, nor is "living in Britain". Also you'd be very unlikely to be denied, the UK certainly doesn't want more issues with the EU right now.
@MartinRosenau shame that supporters of illegal migration (and extended rights for migrants in general) fail to recognize this. You have only one inalienable right in a foreign country: the right to pack your bags and leave.
Tim
Tim
@JonathanReez that’s not entirely true: general human rights still apply.
@Tim perhaps if your home country is destroyed by war some other rights apply. But definitely not if you're from a stable place.
"Would you not consider EU Citizens residing in a foreign country of other national or social origin or even just of other status?" In your given example, you wouldn't be discriminated based on your origin. That would only be the case if you were not permitted to stay at all. Here is what you would be discriminated about, would be the decision to not follow the procedure that is required for people of different origin, which is required to integrate into the same procedures that apply for natives. If you deny to follow that, its your decision you get discriminated for, not your origin.
Tim
Tim
@JonathanReez I mean the U.K. government can’t start breaking the Geneva convention just because they’re foreign citizens. Basic Human rights always apply.
07:45
@Leo I like how you ignored my entire comment except the last sentence, which you tried to refute with nothing except some unverified anecdotal evidence from tabloid newspapers. Like I said, you're unlikely to be denied status. That doesn't mean it's completely impossible, like all things in life. If it does happen you can appeal the decision and go through the normal court process for this sort of thing. Bottom line is the UK is not your country and living in whatever country you want is not a human right, it is a privilege that you have to follow certain procedures to acquire.
@Tim as long as it simply deports foreign citizens back home it is not obliged to follow any other regulations. The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to people who have been returned back where they came from.
Tim
Tim
@JonathanReez “as long as it...” - right, so there’s lots of things they can’t do. They can’t start torturing EU citizens. They can’t imprison them in vast “re-education” camps. They can’t sterilise them. I agree, EU citizens will have no right to remain in the U.K. that doesn’t mean they have no rights.
Leo
Leo
@Demonblack - sorry if you feel I ignored what you said... I didn't but I think you are missing my points. The human right breach would be to split a family, interfere with one privacy and perhaps even to remove them from their own home and livelihood.
@Tim that's my whole point - you don't have the right to remain in a foreign country. But a lot of activists believe otherwise.
Tim
Tim
@JonathanReez that’s not what your first comment said
07:45
"I am very worried and distressed at the idea of having my name and personal details in such register" What specifically worries you? Because your name and personal details are already registered somewhere, you're not living off the grid now either.
@Leo "Germany in the 1930s springs to mind..." Different time, different level of recordkeeping. If the nazis were doing this today, they would not need a particular register for this. Inbetween social media, traded personal information, and the stellar recordkeeping and availability of information in government context (when compared to 90 years ago), they could already find you and find out your nationality among other personal details.
Leo
Leo
@Flater - I'm not sure you get what I am saying... The existence of a register to record the details of a minority group in a time where there are deep political divisions, racism is sky rocketing and a major recession is coming is bad because it makes the friction among people worse. Of course, they can find me and the other 3 million people if they really want to. But this settled status scheme is a conscious and carefully planned decision that the hostile environment, bargaining chips government has made. They could have offered free naturalisation but they did not...
@Leo: (1) " The existence of a register .[..] is bad because it makes the friction among people worse." You're implying that the 1930s (and, according to you, 2019) happened because of the existence of a register?? (2) "this settled status scheme is a conscious and carefully planned decision that the hostile environment, bargaining chips government has made" It seems like you've already made up your mind about who the villain is in your interpretation. It's impossible to counter a baseless accusation or conspiracy theory. You're not asking a question, you're soapboxing.
Leo
Leo
@Flater - no, I am saying that what happened in Nazi Germany was a slow, carefully planned process that occurred over years of politically charged interventions which leveraged on divisions, fear, discrimination, racism and ignorance
@Leo You're proving my point. You're not discussing today, you're discussing the 1930s and are relying on the inherent implication that today must invariably be a repetition of the 1930s. The nazis banned smoking in certain places, does that mean that any government that bans smoking somewhere must be plotting a genocide or ethnic ostracization? If you cannot budge from your interpretation that the settled status register is illegal and indicative of imminent genocide; then this is not a question but a reverberation chamber.
Leo
Leo
@Flater - I am just pointing out there are some parallels that make me and other people in my situation slightly worried...
07:45
@Leo: No, you're posing a statement (settles status is illegal) and are refusing to acknowledge any point that counters it, instead resorting to nazi comparisons and spurious correlations. This is not a question, you're not interested in the correct answer, you're interested in vetting your own opinion.
Leo
Leo
@Flater - no statement there... it is a question.
@Leo Yes, yours is a statement. You keep repeating that this is a violation of your human rights and you won't take no for an answer. There is no recognized human right for you to live in a foreign country (assuming yours isn't a warzone). There is no recognized human right to "privacy" (especially not one that can be broken by simply registering your domicile). The issue is you've already decided the answer to your own question, you're just looking for an echo chamber to validate it in with lots of clapping. I suggest reddit or twitter rather than law stack exchange.
Leo
Leo
For the record, I acknowledge all the points made in this post and I am very grateful to everyone that provided their thoughts on the matter - thank you everyone.
@Demonblack Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights
@Leo Says absolutely nothing whatsoever about domicile registries.
Leo
Leo
@Demonblack - You suggested There is no recognized human right to "privacy" but actually there is - article 8 is about one's "private and family life, his home and his correspondence"...
07:45
@Leo I said there isn't one that is as all-encompassing as you make it out to be (in less words for space). The right to a private home doesn't mean that nobody can know anything about you at all, and obviously that right cannot be broken by simply registering where you live (as literally every functional country on Earth does). Either way this conversation is going nowhere, you'll keep believing that your human rights are being infringed.
@MartinRosenau such a right does exist in European Union law, however, as does the prohibition against discrimination based on nationality. However, that prohibition does have some exceptions.

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