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J.R.
J.R.
00:58
That's the first time you've seen that advice because I've always felt at an impasse. Had you deleted out the Disadvantages: None part a long time ago you would have found me an ardent supporter indeed. I think it's a good idea that ought to be elevated. But it's bad form to just dismiss any potential drawbacks out of hand.
Just accept that some people might see potential drawbacks.
 
6 hours later…
Mari-Lou A
Mari-Lou A
07:03
@J.R. The truth of the matter is the answer you posted set the tone, it had already received 5 upvotes, when I downvoted it for lack of moral support. And your subsequent silence, seems to suggest you don't think it is feasible or a worthy idea. Comments that say you like the idea but are then deleted or hidden in chat do not count.
The majority of ELL users do not have 10K and cannot see you originally posted an answer. You wanted to prove a point, you did. The general reception has been worse than lukewarm. I'd like to thank Araucaria for his eloquent and clear-headed contribution.
And now, after yet another edit in order to save a sinking ship, (four downvotes?) it is time I let this proposal sink or float by itself.
P.S maybe your answer had 4 upvotes when I downvoted. I don't remember exactly.
"I'd like to thank Araucaria for his eloquent and clear-headed contribution". Is not meant to sound sarcastic, it is a sincere thank you.
user image
This is what users see today and what they saw yesterday and the day before. A mod subtly suggesting that I sound arrogant because I didn't list any disadvantages.
 
3 hours later…
J.R.
J.R.
10:19
@Mari-LouA It's not that you didn't list any disadvantages. It's that you flatly said: "Disadvanages: None." There is a huge difference between the two.
Disadvantages: None sets a tone. It implies, "There are no disadvantages to my proposal. Anyone that sees any potential disadvantages, therefore, is a fool, and isn't as enlightened as I am."
I doubt that's how you meant it, but that's how it read to me.
As I said early on, such a bold proclamation invites nitpicking and criticism, which can lead to protracted arguments.
I have thought all along that the advantages to this proposal far outweigh the disadvantages. But, by stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that any disadvantages even exist, you made it very hard for me to get on board as a staunch ally.
(I'm not saying you need to list them. I was just hoping you would cut those two words out of your proposal.)
@Mari-LouA By the way, I wouldn't say the general reception has been "worse than lukewarm." There hasn't been a torrent of support, but, if anything, it's been slightly better than lukewarm.
I just noticed now that you edited your meta discussion and changed "None" to "Are there any serious drawbacks?" I still wish you had simply ended your list of advantages and left it at that.
I used to tell my kids a lot, "Marketing is everything." Rightly on wrongly, sometimes it's not the idea itself that causes a proposal to sink or swim, it's they way that idea is presented. Sometimes little things impede buy-in.
It's too bad we've never been in this chat room at the same time, but I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I am going to edit your question in a way that will eliminate any of my misgivings and make me an ardent supporter. You can roll it back if you think I've weakened your proposal instead of strengthening it.
Again, I would have preferred to discuss the matter first, but time is short for me right now.
So I apologize for that in advance.
 
1 hour later…
Mari-Lou A
Mari-Lou A
11:37
I didn't stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that disadvantages existed. I posted them in a separate answer. And I explained from the beginning that many of your initial reservations were unfounded because the audio would not substitute the written answers. I'm so tired of repeating the same things.
Saying that. The edit is great.
Mari-Lou A
Mari-Lou A
11:47
There are some typos though... maybe Colleen can fix them.
@J.R. The edit is really good but... the recording no longer reflects what was written. I'm not going to rollback the edit. The concept should be clear enough.
 
2 hours later…
J.R.
J.R.
13:57
@Mari-LouA "I didn't stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that disadvantages existed. I posted them in a separate answer."
You didn't post them in a separate answer, you refuted them in a separate answer. And most of that time, your original question still said, "Disadvantages: None." But at least we are discussing the issue and you're getting a better idea of where I was coming from.
As for rolling back the edit to match the recording, I find that kind of ironic, since that was one of the first objections raised. If it was really all that trivial to post recordings, we could have easily updated the recording to match the revised question instead.
P.S. See this question: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/225348/…
It's another great example of where an audio answer would be extremely helpful. Way better than "You sub a of x".
Mari-Lou A
Mari-Lou A
14:50
I'm not going to argue any more. If I had been the editor, I would have been more sensitive about changing the script. Leaving advantages 1-5 alone would not have changed things greatly. If it was easy to upload an audiofile, I'd probably record a new one now, but it's not and I cannot be asked. Today I am too busy.
 
7 hours later…
J.R.
J.R.
21:52
@Mari-LouA Whether the audio file matches the text or not, I still think it supports your point well.
And I smiled when I heard you say "Gobbledygook" :-)

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