English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

04:00

meanwhile, the "socialist" party is stealing the votes from the centre-left party, but enough people vote centre-left so that neither of those parties win. However, the socialist party made major gains recently, and could maybe form the government next time if they score a big break. a proportional representation system could probably help them a lot, but if they manage to succeed in the current system they'll probably de-prioritize electoral reform. (if it's one of their priorities... )

(... one of the weaker left parties has electoral reform as a platform item. but they'll probably never get elected, so.... pfft)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Another problem is that perhaps not many people realise the effect of winner-take-all districts: in England, Lib Dem at last managed to get the Tories to agree to ask people whether they wanted to abolish the districts (or something like that), through a poll or referendum (I forgot), but what happened? People voted against.

@Mechanicalsnail Umm well, one leads to the other?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, after every election, the media is full of stores of supposed injustices in the voting outcomes, so I think enough people would understand it. The problem is that the two biggest parties don't have it as an agendum because they benefit the most from it.

I think it will have to start small, like in cities or some provinces, and only after a few big provinces switch and have been using it for years will there be enough motivation to get it into the federal level where it could do the most good.

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus European parliamentary systems generally have strong party loyalty in parliament. The U.S. doesn't; lawmakers regularly vote against their party on important legislation when they disagree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

actually I wonder what it would do federally... it could breathe new life into the Quebec separatist party. hm, that'd be annoying.

@Mechanicalsnail hah, US lawmakers don't agree or disagree on stuff. They vote for what they're paid to vote for.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah that is a problem. Voters don't understand how important e. reform is.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I see a task for you!

Mechanical snail

04:04

@DavidWallace Who are the center lunatics? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_First?

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Yes, but what position are you defending here?

(The larger the party, the lower the party discipline.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus frankly, I think it's important, but not one of the most important issues facing our government. a bigger issue is that we have this dumb-ass sentate which is appointed for "life" and which can veto legislation. but it has no accountability to anyone at all and it is a colossal waste of money. Sadly, there isn't enough motivation to reform that either.

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus A 2-party system doesn't mean the legislature is unrepresentative of popular opinion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you'd think that considering it's a platform item of the government AND the official opposition right now that they might do something about it, but nope. they can't agree on anything.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 New parties emerge quickly in prop. rep., but they also die or shrink fast.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Apointed, really? By Lizzy?

@Mechanicalsnail Not unrepresentative, but much less so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:07

@Cerberus what? no. by the PM. Liz doesn't do anything, really, except approve the next governor general, who acts as her representative, and 99.999999% of the time is a rubber-stamper.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah I wasn't serious.

Mechanical snail

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which country?

Cerberus

But by the PM? That's crazy. Who ever came up with that idea?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ha, that's another item of reform: republicanism. Something I in principle support because the monarchy is totally useless, but in practice think isn't worth the expense of going through the exercies

@Mechanicalsnail Canada

@Cerberus the founders of the country

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail The country that could have had French cuisine, American technology, and British culture, but which, instead, got French technology, American culture, and British cuisine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:09

oops, my mistake about who does the appointments

> The Senate is modelled after the House of Lords and consists of 105 members appointed by the governor general on the advice of the prime minister

Cerberus

Okay, but it comes down to the same thing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What's wrong with the monarchy? At least you get some glory!

I actually wish we could go back to being a Republic, but with a stadholder elected from the House of Orange.

Who would of course have very little power, as now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus glory? no. what we get is international confusion about the sovereignty of Canada. Hardly anybody understands that the Queen of Canada is distinct from the Queen of England, but is always the same person.

Cerberus

A personal union.

Surely everybody knows what a personal union is?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No.

most people don't understand it.

Hell, even I don't think of her as the queen of canada, most of the time. She's the queen of England.

Cerberus

Then they should learn basic history.

But what does it matter anyway?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:15

You should know that most people don't have a good understanding of basic history, or civics.

@Cerberus It doesn't matter. that's the point. the monarchy is totally irrelevant. except when it's costing money or being embarrassing or confusing. it is never beneficial to Canada.

Cerberus

But it's tradition!

It's nice! It's fun!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

tradition for the sake of tradition alone is insanity.

@Cerberus I disagree. It isn't nice or fun for Candada. Maybe for England it is.

You know what? I'd even be in favour of keeping the royals if we could get our own. Say, have Prince Harry move to Canada, become a Canadian citizen (I bet he isn't considered one), and sever the two thrones. I'd go for that. Next time around, maybe Australia or NZ can have William's 2nd-born.

Mechanical snail

Party for Animals (PvdD) / Votes (2012): 182,162 / HoR seats: 2 / Senate seats: 1. Interesting.

Cerberus

Cutest kid ever who convinces his mother that he shouldn't have to eat octopus: Luiz Antonio: Why He Doesn't Want to Eat Octopus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it's beauty! Don't you like old buildings?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If we had our own monarchy, we could at least have the benefits of having a monarchy. But instead we just have someone else's monarchy. Ask Prince Charles how often he thinks of himself as the heir to Canada's throne. Ask anyone in the world who Elizabeth 2 is. It's all England, all the time for them.

Cerberus

04:20

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That could be fun, a cadet branch!

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Hail Luiz Antonio, the new King of Canada!

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Yeah, those are a bit silly, a one-trick pony.

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus pun intended

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Haha, of Brazil, more likely. I'm assuming he is Brazilian. They were once an Empire, btw!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus old buildings are not the same thing as antiquated forms of government based on dodgy ideas. Keep Windsor palace, get rid of a blood-right to the headship of state.

David Wallace

04:21

Maybe if Ford isn't allowed to be Mayor of Toronto any more, he could be appointed King of Canada.

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail halo

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Wouldn't the o then have an accent?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why can old institutions not be beautiful and comforting, like old buildings?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace lol. His dufus brother is maybe leaving city politics to go to provincial politics. I hope he does, he would be a liability for his party there.

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Anyway, Canadian nationality is no requirement for the job.

Cerberus

04:22

Do you feel it is bad and inefficient to celebrate the 500th anniversary of your city or something? That's also a useless tradition.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mechanicalsnail it should be!

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Umm I don't speak Portuguese, alas. Would it?

@Mechanicalsnail I suppose that's true.

Mechanical snail

António de Oliveira Salazar

António de Oliveira Salazar, GColIH, GColTE, GColSE (; 28 April 1889 – 27 July 1970) was a Portuguese professor and politician who served as the Prime Minister of Portugal from 1932 to 1968. He also served as acting President of the Republic briefly in 1951. He founded and led the Estado Novo (New State), the authoritarian, right-wing government that presided over and controlled Portugal from 1932 to 1974. In 1940, Life Magazine called Salazar "the greatest Portuguese since Prince Henry the Navigator". Opposed to communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism, Salazar's rule was corpor...

Cerberus

Oh, and wasn't Mexico also once an Empire? Or just a Kingdom?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No... that's different. example, I gladly celebrate Victoria Day, which is the holiday we have in May to commemorate Queen Victoria's birthday. Doesn't mean she should be queen, or that I feel her spawn are somehow special and should be rubber-stamping our legislation.

Mechanical snail

04:24

@Cerberus Twice an empire.

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Ugh, not that horrible man.

@Mechanicalsnail Twice each?

Ah.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why is it not a tradition that is worth keeping for its own sake?

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Grandes_Portugueses en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Piores_Portugueses

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway Cerb. you want your monarchy for sentimental reasons. Fine, you can have it. But even if I wanted a monarchy, I don't have that. What I have is a de facto republic with some fine-print that says "oh yeah, this family in a different country are your monarchs"

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail Uhh telephone polls? Yech.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you could like them? They visit Canada on a regular basis, don't they?

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus They telecommute.

Cerberus

04:28

Do realise that, once the monarchy is gone, it will never come back. You only kill a tradition once, in modern times. At least a tradition like that.

@Mechanicalsnail See? That's something.

So anyway, I'd like to be a republic too, but not a modern republic (because a constitutional monarchy is already 99.8 % the same thing).

And I only want to be a republic for historical reasons.

Were I French, I'd probably want to be a monarchy again. Where the incumbent Louis has very little power!

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Just make being named Louis a condition for election to the presidency.

Cerberus

@Mechanicalsnail A pre-what!?

That's lèse majesté!

Mahnax

Evening, folks.

Oh, but it's late. Never mind, and good night.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If by regular, you mean some branch of the family drops by once a decade, then yes.

@Cerberus Yeah but not every tradition is worth keeping.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Hello.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's something!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is true: it may have disadvantages.

All I'm saying is that the very fact that it is old is a nice aspect to it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:45

I dunno. keep it in a museum then. currently it serves no benefit to us that I can see. As I said, it's different for England.

but it's getting crazy late here. I should get going.

I got stuck in a wikipedia link trail. While looking for the name of the greek neo nazi party I googled "golden path" which is something from Dune which led to pages and pages of Dune links.

conclusion: Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson don't know how to write books.

But I already knew that.

Cerberus

Haha.

You think they're that bad?

Mechanical snail

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Χρυσή Αυγή

Cerberus

I never got into the Dune series except the original book.

Which was great.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mechanicalsnail if that means "Golden Dawn" then I already found it :)

Cerberus

So why did you mention Golden Dawn earlier?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:47

@Cerberus yes, they're that bad.

Cerberus

I asked about why you mentioned the Greek party, or was that David?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus just as a point of comparison. the Canadian Conservative party is bad, but not THAT bad,.

Cerberus

Oh, OK.

They're basically Nazis.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The Dune series was good. it was fun. Some parts of it were poorly explained, but overall I like it and recommend it. The two books which finish the series, which are written by BH and KA instead of Frank Herbert, are terrible. Really really bad.

My recommendation is "don't read them". And if you don't like cliff-hangers, don't read Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. They are parts 1 and 2 of 4, but parts 3 and 4 will make you cry.

tears of frustration.

Also, I have some other books by KA and they are also bad.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, wait. I thought Frank only wrote the original.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:51

I have a large number of star wars books. Including 5-6 of his. The first three because once I got the first one, I needed the other two to find out what happened and in those days SW books were few and far between. The last few because they were part of a 19-part series.

@Cerberus no, he wrote 6 books I think.

Cerberus

I also read two books by someone who wasn't Brian or Frank, which take place before the events of Dune. Was that this K?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it was KA and BH

Cerberus

OK.

Those books were...entertaining, but somehow shallow. That's what I remember...I was 17 or so.

I think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:53

They're not the best sci-fi ever. But still fun and interesting. But Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune... BLECH

Cerberus

Why so bad?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sandworms of Dune features 4 deus-ex-machina endings in the last 50 pages.

Cerberus

Yikes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's truly awful.

Cerberus

That's polytheism!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:54

lol

Cerberus

I hate when chance plays too great a part in games or stories.

It should play some part, but not a huge part.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

the problem is, BH/KA retconned some new characters/storylines into the Dune mythos. But then they also retconned the ending of Chapterhouse:Dune so that the actors at the end were related to those prequels. It was so clumsy.

Cerberus

It should serve to introduce variety into the story line, not destroy it utterly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus oh, not chance.

No, like, a literal deus.

Mechanical snail

Jobbik

Jobbik, The Movement for a Better Hungary (), commonly known as Jobbik (), is a Hungarian radical nationalist Jobbik has been described by scholars, different press outlets and its political opponents as fascist, neo-fascist, Neo-Nazi, racist, anti-Semitic, [[anti-Rom

Cerberus

04:55

What was retconned again?

@Mechanicalsnail Yeah, Jobbik sucks. The name alone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, they filled in the storyline for the Butlerian Jihad and the events of those times.

Those events take place thousands of years before Dune.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In Dune, really?

Hmm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm serious.

Cerberus

The Butlerian Jihad could be interesting.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do you want me to tell you what happens? It's a major spoiler. But the book is rotten anyway.

Cerberus

04:57

Hmm better not.

Who knows.

Unless the God is a big computer.

Or one of the gods.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus See, it would be interesting, if it somehow mattered. But it kinda doesn't. In Dune, it's an event from the deep past that has led to essentially one consequence: the humanity-wide shunning of computers and robots, something that is adhered to religiously by basically everyone.

That's all you need to know or care about it, and it's spelled out in the first book, or first few books.

The details are unimportant.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, so that is interesting in itself.

Unimportant? Intriguing, rather.

It was one of those intriguing bits of history that good SF/fantsay ought to be littered with.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes but all you need to know is that essentially some computer-related catastrophe happened and humanity said "fuck it! we can't build safe computers of any kind! It's a slippery slope!" and that was that, for thousands of years.

Cerberus

And those bits can lead to good sequels, because they are about interesting stuff.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "Need"? To what end?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If it was somehow immediately relevant to Dune, but it isn't.

Cerberus

04:59

What position are you defending here?

You don't "need" to explain where Bilbo got the Ring and why it matters, but it could lead to a nice story, who knows?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm saying that from the point of view of the Dune series that FH wrote, nobody needs to write the story or explain in detail what happened in the Butlerian Jihad. That story is so irrelevant to the Dune narrative that it doesn't matter at all. As well tell the story of how the dinosaurs went extinct.

@Cerberus That's different, because Bilbo is still alive and relevant in the LotR trilogy. As are many of the characters in question.

Cerberus

But what's wrong with being irrelevant, then?

If that it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus the problem is that a totally irrelevant story in the deep past of one narrative should not suddenly become super-relevant at the end of that narrative.

which is what BH/KA did.

Cerberus

Ohh, only at the end?

I thought the whole book was about the BJ.

Umm...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They made shit up for their prequels, but that shit had no place at all in the original six books because it hadn't been made up yet. So they spooged it into their sequels.

Cerberus

05:03

Spooged?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So the first three Dune books take place in, say, the year 10,000.

Then God Emperor takes place in 13,500

Cerberus

I still don't get what your point is.

Mechanical snail

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you were told of it, it probably will be relevant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Then Heretics/Chapterhouse take place in 15,000

Then 20 human-years later, BH/KA decide they want to make more money, so they write a novel that takes place in, say, 2100

They invent new characters, new storylines.

Cerberus

Why is it bad to write a book about an irrelevant event in the past, as long as it's fun and interesting? Or did you mean that the entire book isn't about the BJ, but the BJ only turns up at the end of the book as a (couple of) dei-ex-machina?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:04

Then they write a novel that takes place in 15,001 and include details from the story in 2100 including characters from that story who aren't dead yet.

Cerberus

Huh?

Have they become immortal somehow?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So the Butlerian Jihad is two novels that are irrelevant to the Dune Hexology. They take place in Dune's deep past. Fine, they wanted to tell that story, whatever. I didn't read it because I don't like KA. whatevs.

Cerberus

2100 is a weird time for a Dune book, by the way: too close to the present. Is that what you meant?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But then KA/BH write two sequels to Dune that include stuff from the BJ books.

@Cerberus yes. I'm not sure of the exact year. Doesn't matter. Closer to 2000 than 10,000 anyway.

Cerberus

Okay, so what troubles you is that they mixed up two logies at some point, which are so unrelated that they should have been kept separate, and that the average reader of one is not very likely to also like the other logy?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, 3000 would be completely different. 2100 is tomorrow.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:09

@Cerberus what bugs me is that it's bad storytelling to have no precedent for immortal characters to suddenly appear at the very end of a series of books like that. I don't consider the prequels to be properly presented in the timeline of greater narrative and I am offended that they are somehow required reading.

@Cerberus according to wikipedia, the BJ was 10,000 years before Dune.

but I thought Dune was in the year 10,000, so I dunno. doesn't matter.

Cerberus

Okay, so it's too much randomness and too little consistency in general.

And just general frustration.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Tell you what. Just read the books and see if you agree. :)

Cerberus

Haha, I tried.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, skip all the BH/KA books, just read the FH ones.

Then read Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune.

Cerberus

But I only really liked the original. Did you like Frank's books?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:11

yes, I liked them, even though I felt like he needed to explain himself a little better at times.

Cerberus

OK.

I recall there was someone who could predict the future, but only a short time from the present.

And he was blind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I guess counting the dune books, I have 7 Kevin Anderson books and I dislike all of them.

he wasn't blind in Dune.

Cerberus

And it seemed all totally random and not very interesting, so I stopped reading at some point.

No, it was in some sequel.

Was that blind guy Paul?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it's not random. Actually it kinda makes sense at the end, except for the ending written by KA.

@Cerberus yes, he loses his vision at one point. But he uses his prescience to focus on the immediate future as a substitute for vision.

Cerberus

Only at the end? See, it irked me that nothing was explained, that's why it seemed random for too long.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:13

@Cerberus yeah.

2 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, I liked them, even though I felt like he needed to explain himself a little better at times.

Cerberus

So is this not the first book after the original?

Maybe I read more than one sequel?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

he loses his vision in Dune Messiah.

Cerberus

I'm too lazy to look up the sequence, but I'm sure I would have started in the right order.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

23 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune.

Cerberus

Ah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:15

The problem is, it's hard to tell a convincing story that involves a character with perfect vision of the future.

Cerberus

Then I never read an entire sequel. Unless I skipped to Children at some point? What is that about?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so those who can see the future don't bother explaining themselves.

Cerberus

I hate people who can see the future in stories.

Always have.

Just like prophecies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Children of Dune is where Paul is missing, presumed dead, and his empire is being run by his sister, and his children are in danger for their lives.

Cerberus

I think I read (part) of that.

Did I finish it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:16

@Cerberus yeah most writers get that really wrong. In Wheel of Time it works well though.

Cerberus

How?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus do you want to know what happens at the end?

Cerberus

Hmm I don't know, maybe not...

If it's good, the book, I might try reading it again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are lots of characters who can forsee stuff, but it doesn't always come true, or isn't always clear, or whatever. So it's basically just foreshadowing.

Cerberus

(By the way, I also never liked the Fremen. They always seemed rather boring, and I've read the original book several times.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:18

@Cerberus They are a little contrived. I'm not convinced that the desert is the right place to breed the perfect warriors.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's slightly better, but it still sounds incredibly annoying, to be honest.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Apart from that, being in a Fremen cave resulted in boring scenes and subplots, as far as I can remember.

Like...Mordor.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Let's just say that I didn't find it annoying. And the mechanics of how the prophecies work is well-established in the story's system of magic/physics. Contrast with the Sword of Truth series, where the prophesy was so fucking annoying, even the main character got annoyed in the book. THAT was some bad writing.

Cerberus

So you liked Children of Dune? Can it be read without reading the Messiah first?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's the direct sequel. I wouldn't recommend reading it that way.

Cerberus

The Sword of Truth...doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:20

Actually I wouldn't recommend anything other than strict publication order.

@Cerberus stay away!

Cerberus

Ah.

refuses to poke at it with a long pole

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but I really really have to go. bye!

Cerberus

Haha OK bai!

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