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8:00 PM
@Cerberus Look, every car maker spends time on things like that. Some more than others. Lots and lots of products will have changes made to improve things like "sound".
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Straw man.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A well known fact.
 
@Cerberus It's not a straw man. You're saying that they don't care about the quality of the car, because they spend time on the acoustics.
 
Again, straw man.
 
... I just restated your argument. Is that not what you've been saying?
 
If I say "straw man", you may take that as my disagreement.
 
8:03 PM
What straw man are you talking about?
 
You exaggerate my position, thereby making it absurd.
 
I don't think I'm exaggerating it.
Where do you draw the line about acoustic improvements?
 
> You're saying that they don't care about the quality of the car, because they spend time on the acoustics.
I'm not going to explain your own straw man to you.
 
At the end of the day their entire purpose is to sell cars. If they can spend $100000 on paying a guy to tweak the sound of the sunroof and that nets them $200000 more sales, wasn't that money well-spent? Does it matter if the sunroof sound makes customers think "quality" or just think "awesome"?
 
It does matter, because of the reasons above.
Money is not all that matters in society. Or it shouldn't be.
 
8:08 PM
@Cerberus so if the make the sunroof sound "awesome", then it's okay. But if they make the sunroof sound "well-made", then... it matters, because there is a plastic piece that breaks sometimes?
 
Uhh I don't understand this.
 
I don't understand where you draw the line between acceptable improvements to the aesthetics of the car and unacceptable ones.
 
There is no line.
Nothing is ever black and white.
But there is waste and deception.
Too bad we need capitalism.
 
@Cerberus Except for your Gravatar™?
 
It is the lesser evil.
@Mahnax Haha yes!
 
8:11 PM
well, it's a luxury product, so by some definitions there's quite a bit of "waste", depending on where you stand. but deception? The aesthetics of the product make people feel good about the product. There is no way to prove the robustness of the product except to actually buy it and test it.
 
@Mahnax It's actually called red-figure.
Red-figure vase painting is one of the most important styles of figural Greek vase painting. It developed in Athens around 520 B.C. and remained in use until the late 3rd century B.C. It replaced the previously dominant style of Black-figure vase painting within a few decades. Its modern name is based on the figural depictions in red colour on a black background, in contrast to the preceding black-figure style with black figures on a red background. The most important areas of production, apart from Attica, were in Southern Italy. The style was also adopted in other parts of Greece. Etru...
15 mins ago, by Cerberus
The sound of the door I wouldn't so much call aesthetics as a means for the buyer to gauge the quality of the car. This is how Mercedes's marketing guys explain their own reasoning, you know.
 
@Cerberus That's nice, but it's still black and white, no matter what you call it.
 
But but...
The colour has faded a bit over time.
And the image is probably from a black-and-white photo.
 
Nope. It's either black and white or colourful, and I say black and white.
See what I did there? I'm making this a black and white issue in two ways.
 
Colourful pottery is from the Hellenist period.
You are so meta.
 
8:15 PM
@Cerberus All of the aesthetics are used in marketing. I don't see why that's a problem. Outright deception is a problem. Like, painting over something that's rusty is deception. Making something sound nice? Is that hiding a problem that would have been detected audibly before? If yes, then it's deception. If no, then how is it deception?
 
But why did they hate Hellen so?
 
@MattЭллен Do sexist people hate sex?
What about purists?
 
@Cerberus Funny that meta is greyscale.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 purists hate cats
 
@Mahnax You did that on purpose!
 
8:16 PM
@MattЭллен Ohohoho.
 
oh sorry, that's purrists
 
And atheists hate Athe
 
This has more than two colours, see?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 now you're getting how English works! yeah!
 
@Cerberus That is not your avatar. Please try again.
 
8:17 PM
Hllenistic vase.
It is Ares, god of war.
 
it has one colour in multiple shades
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can only restate what I said earlier, so I don't think we're getting anywhere.
@MattЭллен I see black, white, red, yellow...
I have only two colours myself.
 
@Cerberus How? You are a dog. Dogs are colourblind. Therefore you are either a liar or not a dog. QED.
 
@Cerberus I don't see how it is deceptive. I will agree that deception is usually bad. I think making a customer feel good about a product because its aesthetics are good is not bad.
 
@Cerberus I'm just winding you up :D
 
8:19 PM
@Mahnax Actually dogs are only somewhat colourblind compared to humans. They do not see only black and white.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are hindering my ignorance. Please stop.
I think I will stop that now, though.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Matrix also makes you feel good, as does the Brave New World.
 
> One amusing or odd fact is that the most popular colors for dog toys today are red or safety orange (the bright orange red on traffic cones or safety vests). However red is difficult for dogs to see. It may appear as a very dark brownish gray or perhaps even a black. This means that that bright red dog toy that is so visible to you may often be difficult for your dog to see.
 
@Cerberus I see really light brown, light brown, brown and dark brown
 
8:21 PM
Deception usually works with making people feel good.
@Mahnax Or divine.
@MattЭллен Raaaah!
 
@Cerberus Yes. Not everything about the matrix is unethical.
 
@Cerberus God? Is that you?
Or are you Metatron?
 
@MattЭллен The brown is called red! Red! stamps feet
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it is deceptive.
 
@Cerberus but just because deception can be used to make you feel good, doesn't mean that you can't be made to feel good through non-deceptive ways.
 
I was not proving ethics by that example, because that was not what I replied to, but deception.
@Mahnax I don't know what I am, but I ain't no lowly mortal.
 
8:23 PM
@Cerberus Just because deception can be bad doesn't mean it has to be bad. Example, lying to someone about what you bought them for their birthday, in order to surprise them.
 
Look.
 
@Cerberus Well, you're the closest thing to god I've seen evidence of. worships
Kidding, of course.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are not looking at the bigger picture, just trying to argue about something that isn't relevant to my position at all.
@Mahnax blushes I know, I know.
 
@Cerberus Would you like some grapes?
We have some mushy ones in the fridge.
 
Yes, please.
 
8:25 PM
Oh good.
 
On second thought, no thank you.
 
@Cerberus Not true. I'm trying to chip away at your notion that marketing is evil and capitalism is bad.
 
Too late. Your third head has already eaten them all.
 
I may require fanning later.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, you are talking about a dress.
@Mahnax Ah shit. There go my calorie tables.
 
@Cerberus dresses aren't evil either. I wore one once.
 
8:26 PM
That's nice for you.
 
@Cerberus Fear not, grapes have few calories.
 
It was 4th grade, halloween, I dressed up as a woman. My mom thought it was funny, but the people in class were strangely hostile to it.
:7584326 yes.... but I don't think that had anything to do with it.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, OK. Likely not.
 
@Mahnax sigh of relief
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What didn't?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hostile is strange. I would expect laughter and teasing.
 
@Cerberus My going to Catholic school.
 
8:28 PM
Ah.
 
@Cerberus Yeah. hostile laughter and teasing.
 
@Cerberus Would you like some raw meat?
 
Instead of laughing with me, they were laughing at me.
 
Not exactly hostile...just laughter.
It is meant to look funny, after all.
@Mahnax Yay!
 
@Cerberus It's frozen, but your teeth can probably handle it.
 
8:30 PM
@Cerberus eep!
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps you perceived it as hostile, because being laughed at because you look different is not exactly something most children enjoy...
 
BRB.
 
@Mahnax Uhh I prefer my meat rare, but not frozen.
I would also prefer a nice sauce.
@MattЭллен Quite.
 
I have a friend who dressed up as a woman one halloween a few years back. He was the Don of his university dorm: a tall Chinese guy. He was a bit big for a woman, but not too much. Anyway this young guy comes out of his dorm room and goes "whoa! who's she?" And the realizes it's Vince. And then he seemed really embarrassed and ran off.
 
Now it's grocery time.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 He must have found him/her charming...
 
8:31 PM
@Cerberus It was halloween. everyone looked different. But you can tell when they're laughing AT you instead of WITH you.
 
remember to sing a song about groceries while you're out shopping!
 
Uhh...
 
@Cerberus I think he was shocked to discover that he could find a man attractive if that man was dressed up like a woman.
 
@MattЭллен I will remember that you said it, okay?
 
Even if only for a second.
 
8:32 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.
 
@Cerberus awwwwwww pouts
 
Later!
 
Anyway, I sat on said friend's lap and someone took a picture. (Said friend was taller and bigger than me). The film never got developed until like 10 years later, and then my friend's sister was like "uh... who is this woman that Mr. Shiny is sitting on?"
 
8:34 PM
Excellent.
runs off
 
Shit. Blanked. What's the comment marker in batch files?
 
I guess those were my two close-encounters with cross-dressing.
@KitFox REM
 
Oh that's right. Thanks.
It seems I recall something about echo off as well.
It's been years since I wrote one.
 
My son likes to copy his older sister, so when she says "I'm Queen of the castle, you're the dirty rascal", he says "No! I'm queen of the castle! You're the rascal!"
@KitFox yes, it's customary to put @echo off at the top of batch files.
Also you might want to put "setlocal" at the top and "endlocal" at the bottom.
 
That limits the scope?
 
8:39 PM
and remember that if you want a batch file to call a batch file you have to put call otherfile.bat
@KitFox yes, otherwise the batch file edits the global environment
really, batch files suck.
use something else if you can.
esp if you forget how to write them.
 
Like what? I'm using sqlcmd to export my static tables to csv files.
A batch file seemed like the thing.
 
don't relearn it. learn something new. like powershell. or bash. or ruby or javascript or just about anything.
@KitFox well... it may be. I dunno. they just suck a LOT.
 
sighs
 
you will tear your hair out.
 
Haven't I learnt enough new things?
I don't even know how to access Powershell.
 
8:42 PM
@KitFox no. never enough.
 
Today, I mean. Enough new things today.
 
%SystemRoot%\system32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe
or just powershell.exe I guess.
 
I need to run a bunch of stuff via command line.
I don't really care how I do it.
 
@Cerberus We've got a nice big bottle of soya sauce.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Will Powershell do that, and make you not groan?
I mean, I could write the whole thing in VB, but it kinda seems like overkill.
 
8:44 PM
@KitFox I've never used it. I think it can run commands.
 
@KitFox maybe use python?
 
What do you use?
I could use python, I suppose.
Oh, there's windows script or something too, I think.
 
Windows PowerShell is Microsoft's task automation framework, consisting of a command-line shell and associated scripting language built on top of .NET Framework. PowerShell provides full access to COM and WMI, enabling administrators to perform administrative tasks on both local and remote Windows systems. In PowerShell, administrative tasks are generally performed by cmdlets (pronounced command-lets), specialized .NET classes implementing a particular operation. Sets of cmdlets may be combined together in scripts, executables (which are standalone applications), or by instantiating re...
I use a batch file to call Ant. The batch file is a tiny wrapper around a really complex ant script.
But the batch file is the most annoying part of it all. Most of what it does is build the ant command line
If I were starting over, I'd probably write a powershell script around the ant command line
 
Why you gotta make everything so complicated?
It's almost 4 o'clock.
I want to go home.
pouts
Now I don't know my head from my ass.
I have the CLI command, I just need something to run it for me.
 
@KitFox if it's really simple, a batch file will work.
 
8:50 PM
But you said no!
 
If you find yourself trying to master for loops in batch files and if/else and whatnot, you are going to go crazy
powershell is probably on every machine you'll ever use to build your project
so unless you want to use something like python or vb or whatever, a shell scripting language is best for issuing commands. And on Windows you have batch files and powershell, unless you install a third-party shell, but then you need to install that everywhere you expect to build.
batch files can do a lot. But you will hate every minute of making them do anything.
 
Aww!
 
grumbles
A bunch of these monkeys are using "Select *" in their scripts.
That seems like a bad plan.
 
9:00 PM
what's wrong with select *?
 
Select as in HTML or select as in SQL?
 
Seems I remember that you should never use * except for debugging. It has a tendency to cause problems if you don't name your columns.
I use it all the time, but not in production code.
phew about halfway through the installation script and I am already completely sick of it.
 
@KitFox The "problem" is that it returns all columns. If you join two tables, don't specify which columns from which tables you want to select, then a change to a table can break your otherwise okay query.
 
I wonder if it mightn't be better if I just kept all the static data in a database and copied it from there.
 
9:05 PM
@KitFox drop table *?
 
Then I don't have to import/export.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. That.
 
I hate when people talk SQL in here. It's so rude. It makes me want to punch a database.
2
 
We use select * in production a lot. It's great when you want to load all the data. That way you don't need to edit your SQL every time you add a column.
 
user19161
Hey guys, I have a lovely new username now...
 
Nice choice @Jas.
 
9:07 PM
@KitFox But adding a column to a table can break things anyway. What does the new column mean? is it okay that your old SQL still works? Shouldn't that SQL be checked to ensure it's still using the table properly?
 
user19161
@KitFox Amazingly, the first three letters are the same!
 
Jasper, you should change your username to Hugh Jass.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I feel grumpy about the whole thing. I think I should go home now.
 
user19161
@Robusto I don't like Jackman, he's not my type, too hairy.
 
The real problems with Select *: you probably can't use a covering index (but that might be unavoidable anyway, or irrelevant), and you may be bringing back too much data. The other problem, about the column names, cuts both ways. I consider any table change to require auditing all SQL that touches that table regardless.
 
9:09 PM
@JasonBourne I wasn't talking Jackman. I said Hugh Jass.
 
Hello again.
@JasonBourne Why do you pick random user names all the time?
It is only confusing.
 
Toodles.
 
Bayeee
@Cerberus because he lurves Matt Damon
 
That's an actor.
 
Or maybe Jasper could name himself Jack Orff.
 
9:14 PM
Or maybe he could call himself Jasper.
 
I think @Cerb and I are the only people who visit chat frequently who haven't changed their gravatars.
 
How about Mr Shiny?
 
He's changed it a lot.
 
Oh.
I refuse.
 
Me too. Mine is perfect. Why should I change?
 
9:16 PM
Why indeed?
 
Exactly.
 
This coincides with my own opinion of myself.
 
And they both begin with D! Dream and Dog.
 
Obviously.
They also begin with C, Chinese Character and Canis Infernalis.
 
@Cerberus I've never changed my avatar.
Any my username, only once.
 
9:19 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I seem to recall you having a different one. This one looks new.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is still defilement.
 
@Robusto I don't think so. Yesterday I was playing around in Gravatar, but didn't actually upload or change the avatar.
 
Neither Rob nor I has ever committed such sacrilege.
 
I briefly flirted with having a suffix on my name, but went back to the original within a couple weeks.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you were so close.
 
9:20 PM
you guys are just afraid of experimentation
 
@Robusto What!? You did!?
When?
 
@Cerberus Actually I just wanted a higher-res copy of my avatar and couldn't find my original.
 
Am I the only pure one in this room, then?
 
@Cerberus when everyone else did.
 
"Everyone" else.
Not I.
 
9:21 PM
@Cerberus Back when it was a trend. I put a couple of kanji after Robusto. I was bi-curious then, what can I say?
 
@Cerberus well, everyone else who did.
 
Have you never learned to resist peer pressure?
@Robusto Very bi. It's just wrong.
 
But my gravatar has always remained the same.
 
@Cerberus I'm not going to start resisting peer-pressure just because you want me to.
 
I think we should force Samsung to change their name to Samsang. Or at least Samhadsung.
 
9:22 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then you are inconsistent. Me, I was just providing you with with facts regarding aesthetic theory, not pressuring you at all.
 
@Cerberus you're pressuring me now!
 
@Robusto Why, is your character pronounced Samsung? That explains certain things...
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then I advise you to change your definition of pressuring.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Here's some more pressure: Don't ever change! You're perfect as you are!
 
would it be better to change my username to its original form, or leave it as is, resisting change?
@Robusto gah!
 
@Cerberus No, of course not.
 
9:24 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I say change back.
 
I can't take the pressure!
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can feel yourself changing, can't you?
 
@Robusto OMG you're denying it, so it must be true! You fake Iphone!
 
Did no one get my Samsung joke?
 
@Cerberus I am going to keep it as is. I changed it because everyone else did, but I changed it differently than others, and am keeping it for different reasons. So there.
 
9:25 PM
@Robusto I did not, for I speak no Chinese/Korean/Japanese.
 
I played the "let's make a username that uses symbols which resemble letters" game back in the 90s on BBSes.
@Robusto I did.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't need to tell you how incredibly weak that reasoning it.
 
@Cerberus Check it out. I don't see a Samsung anywhere in there.
 
@Cerberus weak? My reasoning for keeping my username is weak? My reasons for how I chose my "decorations" are weak?
 
I am always Cerberus, or Cerberus™ when Cerberus is not available, or Cerberus_tm if ™ is not possible, or, failing all else, Cerberus-tm.
 
9:26 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Thank you. I've always depended on the kindness of strangers.
 
@Cerberus Are you cerberus everywhere?
 
@Robusto I saw a Samsung.
 
@Cerberus Lies!
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. Once weak, always weak.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Pretty much. What else could I be? Aren't you?
 
@Cerberus Yes, but my username is way more unique than yours. There's zillions of cerberuses on the internet.
 
9:27 PM
@Robusto I saw it clearly in the POST data, "User Agent: Samsung Galaxy Nexus".
 
@Cerberus Wah-wah.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 *Cerberi
 
@Cerberus *cerberoids
 
@Robusto Is this some Indian language?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Everyone is a Cerberoid. They just don't know it yet.
 
@Cerberus that was the trombone, lamenting your unfunny joke :)
 
9:28 PM
Cerberus anagrams to "beer curs" ...
 
Oh, that wah-wah.
@Robusto Could have been worse.
 
Trombone with mute.
Wah-wah is also haw-haw backwards.
 
Better than red bull kitty.
 
Who is that?
 
@Robusto Huh, I thought you had changed into Jason Bourne, Jasper, but it appears you have changed into Robusto. That explains it.
 
9:30 PM
Curb Seer
 
No. Let's not say things we can't say back.
 
@Robusto If my name had anagraphed to that. Would have been much worse.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It took you that long?
I already though of the best one. Give up.
 
Cube Errs
@Robusto no
 
9:31 PM
Ser Bruce
 
I am so flattered.
 
Ere scrub
Meaning "unwashed"
 
How often do you click on Google auto-complete when you start typing something?
 
Reb curse
 
I very rarely.
I just type what I want.
 
9:35 PM
Anyway, I am considering changing my gravatar. I have been using it since 2007 at least.
It may be time for an update
 
No!
I'm considering bulldozing the Old Church. We have been using it since 1306 at least.
 
yes! install a star bucks
or an observatory
or plant a garden
 
OMG there is s Wikipedia "New Year's drinks" five minutes from here.
 
@Cerberus It has been a source of evil and discord for centuries! raze it, and put a monument to science in its place.
 
At the university.
Do I want to go there?
 
9:39 PM
do you? the only way to find out is to go
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it is used as a museum and for all sorts of pagan exhibitions already...
@MattЭллен I don't know. Wikipedia people are probably weird.
 
anyway, if I come up with a new avatar, y'all will be the first to know
 
Only weird people are on the Internet, right?
 
@Cerberus obviously
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not I.
 
9:41 PM
all the more reason to go
 
@Cerberus weirder than a 3-headed black-and-white dog who's neither black and white nor a dog?
@Cerberus why not? Maybe I'll wait to reveal it until you're in the chat room
 
Hmm yes, my presence could scare them.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But I won't refresh, so good luck.
 
oh, you'll refresh. you'll refresh
 
@Cerberus I'll trick you into refreshing some other way
then, surprise! new gravatar
anyway. time to go
cya later
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah right, and I will fall for your weird capitalist tricks.
The only person here who ever got me to refresh was Vitaly, and that was willingly.
> The moment someone questions your name in a hostile fashion? Hang up and move on to the next potential mark.

Not Justin. He was happy to keep asserting his Justin-ness until I gave up, then proceeded amiably along the script, telling me that his company had been monitoring my computer and saw that I had downloaded a virus, etc, etc. I told him that I write about these issues for a living and that I had actually covered this well-known scam. This still didn't lead to a hang-up. Justin told me that was just not true and that "Windows Technical Support" was a wholly legitimate business.
Hilarious.
Phone scammer refuses to hang up even when called out on it directly.
 
9:52 PM
This makes my head hurt:
0
Q: Can one prefer 'either' or 'neither'?

vidgetI just had the following exchange with a co-worker: Me: Do you prefer a rubber band or do you prefer a clippy thing? Her: I would prefer neither. Me: You would prefer either. Her: Well I can't prefer either because... discussion ensues Me: So you have no preference. ...

 

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