Maybe, but that's a different topic.

I guess.

It's the umbrella topic.

I see.

@KitFox In a way, it is. There is lots of literature about how ministries of defence around the world order equipment based on personal contacts and all sorts of shady factors, while in fact they would be better off buying from a different company. Take the Joint Strike Fighter. Our army really wanted it, even though research showed that Saab's jets were probably a better deal for the price.

Look, it's easy to stand outside and point, but if you've never been involved in the process, you just don't understand.

> 90 out of 111 Boeing Co lobbyists in 2012 have previously held government jobs.

Working with the military is extremely difficult and expensive.

Exactly. And why is that?

Why the fuck don't we change that? It's our military, for crying out loud.

Because of the need for secrecy, for one.

An important reason was that your army promised our government that our technology corporations would get lots of orders for parts, so jobs. And of course these companies lobbied our government hard. And now it turns out the calculations were wrong, and we have to pay billions extra.

@KitFox Of course it's difficult, and not all problems have solutions. But there is definitely something shady about it.

@RegDwighт This is meaningless.

@Cerberus No, there is nothing "shady" about it.

Why not?

Generals are treated to lavish banquets with lots of booze, so that they feel they have "committed" themselves to do something back.

Or perhaps not.

Who knows?

@KitFox how is it meaningless? Just because it happens time and again in all governments around the world? Schröder working for Gazprom now?

@Cerberus just watch Schindler's List. That's how it works. Always has.

@RegDwighт Because maybe half of them were postal employees. "Government jobs" covers a lot of ground.

I see. Yes, that kind of exaggeration certainly never helps.

@Cerberus That is definitely not the feeling. Generals don't feel beholden to anyone except the Commander-in-Chief. Perhaps.

Not even to their wives.

Not to mention that lobbying is most often and effectively done by people who understand how the system works in the first place. That's why so many former politicians do it, and why it is regulated.

@RegDwighт Yes, and it is a problem.

@KitFox it's regulated but by the same politicians.

@RegDwighт Not exactly.

@KitFox Why do you say that? I think there is plenty of evidence that this kind of lobbying works.

Exactly or not, it's fox in charge of the henhouse.

Why else do you think they do it?

And all of that information is public.

I have several friends who are lobbyists.

@Cerberus It's not a matter of being "beholden," it's a matter of selling. And selling comes down to having time to sell. And being convincing.

Several of them used to be an MP's assistant, and they are intimately familiar with how the parties work, and they know everybody.

@KitFox And what does this mean exactly?

Lobbying is a means of getting someone in charge to listen to you long enough to hear your argument and possibly be convinced by it.

You know how it works.

So Apple tries to sell to the US Army. Great. Unless they have something to offer, they won't be successful.

If you're good, you can get people to do all sorts of things. And what does a general know about technology? Nothing.

Obviously they do have something to offer.

@Cerberus Uh-huh. So what is your point?

That partying with generals is to me a form of corruption, because people are influenced in inappropriate ways, although it is obviously not as bad as actual bribery. But there are often personal perks involved too, like a special, ultra-fast Ipad for the visiting generals?

"Proto-types".

I'm making this up of course, but it may happen.

You can have a shit-ton of money, and a bucketload of lobbyists, and go to Washington and lobby Congress to make it illegal to be freckled. Good luck with that. Just because you are rich and/or a lobbyist, that doesn't guarantee your success.

Of course.

it does improve your chances

it has to. people with no money can't do that

Nothing guarantees your success. And ridiculous laws are much harder to push through.

@Cerberus Oh noes!! Special things for the highers-up? What will we do????? They might get a special jet or something too!

But still.

@KitFox No, I mean gifts up front, during the visit.

It's easy to make clueless people enthusiastic. And the people at the top often lack technical knowledge.

@MattЭллен That is very true. And it is true that those with low socio-economic status are under-represented to Congress, but there are organizations that lobby for exactly these groups. Like, uh, I don't know, unions. Like my husband does.

Like the ACLU and Planned Parenthood.

Etc.

Lambda Legal.

And yet there are tons of laws to protect the commercial interests of huge corporations.

People only bitch about the lobbying that doesn't serve their ends.

As opposed to the interests of ordinary citizens and small companies.

Blah blah blah. It comes and goes.

You don't think it is a problem?

It is hardly new, but it seems to be getting worse and worse.

I don't think what is a problem?

Governance?

Semi-corruption by large companies.

Corruption of what? The government?

Leveraging super-PACS to pressure MPs and such.

Yes, of governments.

There was a scandal here last week.

I think it's hilarious that super-PACs destroyed Romney.

I think the Republicans got slapped in the face in the last election and I hope they will take it to heart.

They spent big bucks and lied and cheated and still lost.

Weaklings!

Anyway, my point is that it's not corruption. Not the way I think of corruption.

It's the natural consequence of vying for limited resources.

You don't think it is a problem, whatever you call it?

The military requires contractors to follow very strict regulations and demonstrate compliance as well as producing the items of interest. It is a difficult burden to bear, and it is hard to just jump into.

And yet there are plenty of huge scandals.

Like the JSF here.

I don't know what you mean.

I'm sorry. How is that a scandal?

Billions of public money are wasted because the wrong figures were given on purpose: maintenance costs were left out.

"On purpose"? That's a tall claim.

And still, people could have known, but they went through with it anyway.

You are seriously over-estimating the collective intelligence and competence of the US Army.

It was mainly Dutch companies that did the lobbying work, I think.

They were promised orders.

So you shot yourselves in the foot and blame us for it?

This is not about America.

It could have been some French or Dutch industrial complex.

Stork was one of the companies that lobbied hardest.

So your companies thought they'd get lots of orders, so they told your government that they thought it was a good idea, and they were wrong.

And that's corruption to you?

You're painting it in the most favourable light possible.

I'm painting it in the most realistic way.

One sec.

Back.

@KitFox You really don't think there is a problem here?

Human error is always a problem.

@KitFox I want a jet.

That is all.

@Mitch Earn your stars then.

It's trying to influence politicians by means of social and monetary pressure that is a problem.

So you'd rather your politicians were completely ignorant of everything?

If you get a week to talk to a general 16 hours a day, you bet he will be worn down in the end.

If he's even half willing at the start.

Generals aren't politicians.

Spending time together is the prime culprit in this semi-corruption.

It works the same way with politicians.

Actually...I want one of those mini-backhoes, I think the Brang is Caterpillar, but they're called Bobcat. It's like one of those humongous dirt moving machines they use in open dig cal mines. But realtively Bonsai sized, like it would fit in the palm of your hand.

If you were a super giant.

@KitFox No: there is an unsolvable problem between corruption and incompetence.

they're like the size a a 'Smart' car.

but you dould dig up your house with them.

@Cerberus No problems are unsolvable.

In case anyone is thinking of my birthday.

@Mitch I have access to an excavator. Will that do?

@Cerberus isn't that what peasant rebellions and revolutions are about (sometimes)

@KitFox yeah, that'd be great!

what's an excavator?

That is, if you make a politicians less corruptible, by picking someone who's not from the field and who will not listen to companies, he will be incompetent, and the other way around he will be corrupt. So some kind of balance must be struck, but there is no solution, and this balance just means you have two medium-sized problems instead of one big problem.

I'm guessing it excavates things.

@KitFox Then how?

@Mitch Umm they can be?

@Cerberus I think that is a false dichotomy...there are -some- people in between.

@Mitch I'll find a picture. Hang on.

@Cerberus that's just assuming the worst.

and anyway, all we can do is copmlain and hope people have shame (and sometimes they do)

WTF.

@Mitch Yes. But it is very hard for those people to get the right positions due to party politics.

@Cerberus So competent = corrupt. No wonder you see a problem.

I am getting personal letters now.

@RegDwighт I love it!

but also, goddamn you McDonalds

@RegDwighт It -is- your fault, you know.

just for being there.

You should resign.

@KitFox I'm just saying that you can't design the system in such a way that it stimulates competence without causing some corruption.

because it ws on your watch.

and people you don't know or have control over did weird things. Totalyl your fault.

my watch needs a new battery

batteries often have salts in them, FYI

Wait, we're not still talking about corruption in the moderation of ELU are we? the missing millions? the parties at the expense of the under 100's? The pyramid scheme of reputation?

@Cerberus You are the worst kind of skeptic.

@Mitch no it is not. I explained it to him. He should learn to read.

@MattЭллен Your watch needs a new watch.

Your jury system is based on this theory.

@KitFox No need to get personal.

@MattЭллен yeah salts that can burn through your skin to the bone.

If you do it right.

@RegDwighт Is that Ramesh?

@Mitch assault and battery from salts in batteries!

@Mitch I doubt it.

I don't know why, but that makes me think of bacon.

Not that I have checked.

@Cerberus I've had a lot of caffeine. It's not meant as an attack. Just a criticism. I think you should change your viewpoint.

he just got suspended. Was that automatic?

No that was humanatic.

I don't think the system will actually suspend anyone. Only block from posting.

@RegDwighт I always get confused at the tollbooth, automatic vs manual, because the automatic one I use my hands with too

@KitFox Haha okay, that was clear enough.

@KitFox Yeah that!!

But seriously, why do you think they thought of juries?

except there are some even smaller ones.

@KitFox is that the excavator your military gave to you so you bash on Cerberus? That explains everything.

@Mitch Yeah, that's an actual excavator. They make mini-exs too.

you can go around the neighborhood saying " need anything torn up?"

In ancient Athens, many more public offices were appointed by drawing straws.

@Mitch "Need any ground work done?"

@KitFox It's so cute!!

@Cerberus and look where it got them!

Now only Merkel can save them. And won't.

@KitFox removes stumps, small garages, do you want to know where that drain goes to?

@RegDwighт We still have the acropolis!

@Cerberus have you seen the acropolis?

"Have" is a euphemism.

@RegDwighт I wasn't bashing him. I just get tired of the paranoia sometimes.

@Cerberus yeah, you want that acropolis removed? I'll do it for free if I can keep the stone work.

And look where it got France, England, America, and Germany too. You all have some jury stuff.

@Cerberus America is not corrupt.

@RegDwighт Wouldn't you want to live where you could see it from your bedroom window?

@KitFox nah, you in particular get tired of paranoia always and immediately. Even when it's not paranoia.

@Cerberus no.

@Mitch As you can see from the picture, we were building an embankment.

We have no native cheeses. Q effing ED.

@RegDwighт Fair enough.

@KitFox um...I see no embankment.

Wow I'm so fair today.

But hell yeah!

@Mitch Umm do you understand what I'm saying? I'm saying those countries have juries like Athens, and they chose to do so because of the reasons I gave.

Next thing you know, I become balanced as well.

You have a river you want a levee for? I'll do it with that!

OK, we were burying...stuff.

Goodfellas.

And look at the corruption-competence trade-off in juries.

@KitFox is this more eugenics stuff?

No...

@Cerberus I think modern social technologies are making democartaic principles easier to maintain than those in Athens.

@Mitch So...

That's why I mentioned modern countries.

Don't you see the trade-off?

The problem is less urgent now than a few hundred years ago.

@KitFox Oh...hm...yes, but aren't those things loud? like in the middle of the night, it'll wake up the neighborhood, they'll come over in there pjamas and rub their eyes saying 'So..what's up? Need any help?' (really they're just being polite)

Probably because the pie keeps growing.

@Mitch Loud? Really only if you are backing up. Mostly not too much.

and all you can say is , 'naw, just um digging this hole here'. "What's in that bag?" "O h that? nothing...really, it's nothing". "Oh. well, it's leaking"

@KitFox so you're saying just go forward?

@Mitch "Oh, yeah, could you just check the depth of this hole for me?"

@Mitch What's the red stuff?

Around these parts, I doubt anyone would even ask.

We keep to ourselves mostly.

@Mitch Yeah.

oh, the reverse beeping thing?

Yep.

@MattЭллен "Okay, so I need a hole about 2.5 by 1 metres. I need it tonight, around 4 am. Can you do that?"

They found a body in a deep freeze not too long ago that some guy had moved around with him for years. The family found it while cleaning out his house after he died.

Wow.

Who was it?

His mother?

"If you're 'getting' rid of that 'leaky bag' do you mind if I bring over some stuff of mine? It's not leaky any more and ... well... it's in smaller parts now..."

Some old flame, I think.

"...besides it's no one you know."

@KitFox That's scary.

@Mitch Ohhh okay, so then it's fine.

@KitFox It's so hard to know how to deal with them.

Yeah, pushing them off bridges is more convenient.

When they're not looking.

gotta be a tall bridge. other wise it just gets them all wet.

"Let's go watch the sunset at this romantic bridge on our last night; you owe me this for breaking up with me."

or shallow.

@Cerberus "breakup break-up"

Well, did you hear about the guy here who did that?

No?

@RegDwighт It's just like you to award the checkmark to a pineapple who can't even bring himself to drop a g he's so stuffy.

@Mitch Hmm? You mean "break" as in bones?

That's really uncool. YOu should have the courage to tell them what they really think...before they push them off.

@Cerberus ha ha yes.

There was a man here who pushed his wife off a cliff, maybe back in the 80s?

It was a long time ago.

@Robusto drop it like a g

@KitFox Just one?

@Mitch But then they won't come, oddly enough. Believe me, that never works; you only tell them the moment you're pushing them.

@Robusto I never awarded a checkmark on that question. What are you talking about?

He said she fell, but later, some tourists came forward with photographs of him pushing her in the background of their vacation pictures.

Wow.

@RegDwighт I'm talking nonsense, as usual. Sorry.

Haha.

Don't gloat. It could happen to you.

That is so horrible, killing the person who's supposed to trust you most.

Not that I'm seeing any pineapples on that question except for myself...

after the invention of photoshop

@Robusto again, what do you mean, "could"?

Like, when they saw him pushing her over they were like, "Oh, well, just the normal marital spat." And then they were all like, "Wow, dude, he like totally killed her!"

Hollywood-level stuff. Classy.

I guess he couldn't keep up the bribery

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