English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:08

Just use the Knuth ruleset.

Robusto

00:33

@Cerberus The m is the wider character, so as long as you get dom- in, the width of the i doesn't make much difference. I'd probably prefer to see it as dom-ination.

Oh, and I see @tchrist is trying to fuck with my head by editing a post of mine to change quotes to italics and add a spaced ellipsis. Very funny.

tchrist

It looks better now.

@Robusto If you think you are getting especially targeted treatment, then you aren’t looking hard enough. But sure, the edit message should have sufficed.

Robusto

00:49

@tchrist I didn't read the edit message.

tchrist

Then I get an I-told-ya-so too. Cool.

You don’t get special treatment here, Rob. I edit things to improve them all over. My edit history proves you are not targeted.

Robusto

Nah, but it's kind of OCD behavior.

WTF?

I can't ping a 192.168.1.111 address. It doesn't exist.

tchrist

That’s just the Class C ten-net.

What do you mean “it doesn’t exist”?

@Robusto You should have the whole 16-bit 192.168.*.* network available, no?

Robusto

I phrased that poorly. There is no device at that address is what I meant to say.

tchrist

Do you have two different routers coming up on their default settings?

Although .1.111 is kinda weird.

Robusto

01:00

No. I think it's just a problem with the firewall.

I think it reports false positives with ARP and DNS poisoning attack detection.

tchrist

> The IP address 192.168.1.1 is normally used by Linksys broadband routers although other brands of routers and some other types of devices can also use it.

@Robusto Ick!

Robusto

I have a Cisco router that uses 192.168.1.1.

tchrist

That is why I said the .1.111 is odd.

I am assuming you are running NAT?

Robusto

Yes.

tchrist

If you ping your broadcast address, do you get two responses back for that one?

Robusto

01:09

No.

tchrist

Well, something isn’t right, but I have no idea what.

Robusto

Me either. I think it's the firewall.

user19161

02:10

There are many mysteries in this world.

user19161

I protected all my own 19 questions for fun.

RegDwighт

03:25

1

Q: "the end of next week" or "the end of the next week"?

I wonder if there should be a "the" in front of "week" in "the end of next week"? Why is that by English grammar? Thanks!

grammar

My new favorite question. "Why is that by English grammar?"

tchrist

Good morning.

user19161

@tchrist Hey there!

tchrist

I’m thinking these strange hours are Chinese.

Mahnax

Hello everyone.

tchrist

Hi to you, too.

Mahnax

03:29

How's things?

user19161

I decided to change into pink for fun.

tchrist

You’re still purple in my world.

Mahnax

He's pink here, but I think I disabled caches.

user19161

Also, with a special line to go along.

tchrist

A Study in Pink

"A Study in Pink" is the first episode of the television series Sherlock and first broadcast on BBC One and BBC HD on 25 July 2010. It introduces the main characters and resolves a murder mystery. It is loosely based upon the first Sherlock Holmes novel, A Study in Scarlet. The episode was written by Steven Moffat, who co-created the series. It was originally filmed as a 60-minute pilot for Sherlock, directed by Coky Giedroyc. However, the BBC decided not to transmit the pilot, but instead commissioned a series of three 90-minute episodes. The story was refilmed, this time directed by...

user19161

03:36

@RegDwighт I upvoted that one.

tchrist

tsks

Gigili

Hellu.

My father ...... his new car for two weeks now.
has had
has
is having
had

Mahnax

has had

Gigili

Why is "is having" not correct?

tchrist

It just is.

Gigili

03:39

Makes sense!

Mahnax

It doesn't really work with "for two weeks".

tchrist

Because is having means something else.

Mahnax

And there's that.

tchrist

My father is having fish for supper tonight.

Mahnax

is having means that he would currently be having his new car. But you can't is having for two weeks now.

Gigili

03:41

Yeah. Got it.

Thank you.

tchrist

Have doesn’t enjoy being made into a progressive. There is something odd with the idea.

user19161

I am having breakfast now. / I have had breakfast for two weeks. / I had breakfast yesterday. / I have breakfast every day. @gigili

tchrist

I found only 18 word-pairs in the OED for words ending both in -free and -less.

Mahnax

Carefree/careless, for example.

tchrist

But there are only 53 -free words, compared with 1,829 adjectives ending in -less, so that is no great surprise.

Right.

Oh wait.

I did literal hyphen-free.

Mahnax

03:44

waits, oh

tchrist

Just a sec.

Not much better.

user19161

I think SE is dead at this time, we should all go to bed now.

Mahnax

It's not even 21:00 here.

tchrist

seamfree, overfree, and unfree were the only other matches for adjectives besides carefree.

But seamless/seamfree is another pair.

user19161

@tchrist Unfree and unless!

tchrist

03:46

Unless is not an adjective.

> bite, carbon, care, ice, iron, mail, needle, pain, pierce, rent, room, seam, sex, shot, stress, taint, value, watch, wood, wound

But I should say both are productive.

There just are bazillions more -less versions.

user19161

Over and out!

tchrist

So early?

Mahnax

He sleeps whenever he wants to, IIRC. It doesn't matter that it's noon there.

tchrist

That, or thereabouts.

macbook# TZ=Asia/Singapore date
Sat Nov 24 11:50:02 SGT 2012

Gigili

@WillHunting Yes, I learned that 48 years ago. I see no relevance between my question and your example.

Thank you @Mah and @tchrist.

Mahnax

03:52

@Gigili No problem.

cornbread ninja

04:08

hey @Mahnax

Mahnax

Hi @corn!

My interview(s) were today.

cornbread ninja

how was the interview?

Mahnax

It went well. I was asked to go to another location and do a second one, so I did.

cornbread ninja

nice

Mahnax

I know someone who works at the location I applied at, and it sounds like I got the job.

cornbread ninja

04:09

did they give you a green apron?

Mahnax

No. I haven't been hired yet, I'm waiting for my phone call.

cornbread ninja

oic

Mahnax

If I get hired I get the apron.

cornbread ninja

I got to wear a black one once

bbl sleep

Zzzzzzzzz

user19161

@Gigili They are clearly related. One day you will understand why that is a great answer, but it is not this day.

user19161

04:24

@Mahnax Though I also say over and out even if I am not sleeping.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Oh, OK.

David Wallace

09:13

Disturbing on so many levels.

Cerberus

10:53

@DavidWallace Yo!

Good to see you here, if briefly.

Cerberus

12:14

►

This should have been in Birds.

Robusto

Since when do you watch movies from the '60s, @Cerberus?

Cerberus

I watched part of it on television once, as a child.

It was scary!

Robusto

Yeah, it was.

BTW, I found out my serial nemesis on ELU.

Cerberus

I had no idea what I was watching, I was dropped in at about 20 % or so.

Oh?

How?

Robusto

Yep. Let's just say a little detective work.

Cerberus

12:24

Is that his real name, or did you give him that nickname?

Ah.

Robusto

@Cerberus The one whose name means that.

Cerberus

Uhm.

Ah.

Female?

Robusto

What is another term for a serpentine-bladed knife?

Cerberus

I already got it.

Just trying to verify.

Because I thought she was a girl.

Robusto

I don't know the gender.

Cerberus

12:25

Hence "ah".

I think the name was even discussed here.

Robusto

Well, you kept asking questions.

Cerberus

And people thought it was probably a girl's name.

Well, anyway, she posted an annoying comment on my answer just two days ago.

So I sympathise with your cause.

Robusto

Which answer?

Whoa, I missed it.

K, got it.

Cerberus

The "or" is puzzling.

I am ignoring her and benefiting from doing so.

Robusto

Excellent Cerberus, your answer is to me a flashback of the EL&U glory that we are losting today. Congratulations, +1. — Carlo_R. 23 hours ago

This is such a backhanded compliment.

Cerberus

12:32

Yes.

But I'm not his target, so I stay out of it.

Robusto

It's pure genius in the way it poisons the well for everyone else.

I would almost think he does it on purpose, but he would have to be a deadpan satirist on the level of Don Novello.

Cerberus

You mean the losting?

There is something stubborn about those Italians.

They do not contest corrections: they simply ignore them.

Robusto

Not just the losting. The use of present progressive there is sheer genius.

It implies that your answer is contributing to the loss.

Cerberus

Haha.

I suppose.

Robusto

Imagine someone praised your shirt, and then said it would look good on a man.

Cerberus

12:37

Nice.

Robusto

All smiles, of course, and if they didn't speak English you would give them the benefit of the doubt. But all your friends would laugh.

Cerberus

Although he is strictly comparing my answer to this "glory".

Yes, I'm fine with people insulting me in Dutch.

Robusto

Who can tell the difference? All Dutch sounds like insults to me.

Well, time for breakfast.

Cerberus

Ggchgch!

Robusto

No Dutch insults in chat, please.

Cerberus

12:41

Pleonasm.

Robusto

Don't feel smug about your rutabaga. They didn't grow them that big back in '60s movies. — Robusto 17 secs ago

My comment on StoneyB's answer.

Cerberus

Not sure I get it, but OK.

I'm not entirely happy about my answer, but I'm not in the mood to change it.

Robusto

13:40

@Cerberus I gave you an upvote, just so you would stop pouting.

At first the construction seemed odd to me, but it makes perfect sense.

Cerberus

Yay!

Which construction(s) exactly?

Or or and?

Or and and or?

Robusto

The one using "and than" to start the final clause.

It works when you think about it, but the point is, you shouldn't have to think about grammar while reading. I consider that the writer has failed if I have to reread a sentence to get the sense of it.

Cerberus

14:25

Yeah...the sentence is just a bit unwieldy.

It needs recasting.

Johan Larsson

That is something I think they should focus more on in schools, as it is today it is quantity > quality

Maybe not the exact topic you discuss

But give the best grades to the shortest and most precise texts.

I heard a number and don't remember exactly but think it was ~40% of the total work hours in sweden was producing or consuming text

Think it was radio and it was a while ago so will probably not find source

Noah

Hi

Johan Larsson

hej

Noah

hej

what the heck is that?

If you get foam insulation on your hands, is there any simple way to remove it.

I am having a hard time with it. My fingers are kind of stiff.

Johan Larsson

I think it requires pretty strong stuff, try acetone?

But it might require thinner or such and then mechanical wear is probably better

You could try butter (honest)

Noah

14:36

Really?

How's that gona help?

Robusto

@Cerberus Don't you love it when you answer a question, and then shortly afterwards someone else answers with a shorter version of your answer? Seriously.

Johan Larsson

@Noah I cant phrase it in English but in Swedish we say similar dissolves similar and by similar we count the number of carbons in the chains

I have not tried it myself, just a guess. But on the other hand, not much to loose cheap and harmless

Noah

@JohanLarsson I see. Like dissolves like is what we say in English. I like the last part of your sentence. Let me give it a try and see if it will help.

Johan Larsson

You might want to be careful with solvents on your skin. I read an interesting article once where they equipped a person with a device to detect chemicals in the breath and then measured how long time it took from placing the hand in a solvent until it was detected in the breath. It was fast.

Noah

Interesting.

Johan Larsson

14:45

other than that scotch-brite might be your best option

RegDwighт

Waiwai flagged the narrative-nonfiction question for reopening; I tried to edit it accordingly. Not sure if I succeeded. Others are invited to have a look and vote to reopen (or not) as they see fit.

1

Q: What is “narrative nonfiction”, exactly? Isn't every nonfiction narrative?

I came across the term “narrative nonfiction” in the New York Times article titled “What should children read?” (November 22). It seems to be a journalist’s and book editors’ favorite jargon from the following sentence: What schools really need isn’t more nonfiction but better nonfiction, ...

meaning adjectives terminology literary-techniques

Robusto

@RegDwighт I nominated it. Only needs four more votes, heh-heh. It is certainly a better question than most of the junk we see on here. There is a proscriptivist element here who believe that only questions that can be answered with a grammatical rule should be allowed to remain open. I'm looking at you, @FumbleFingers.

Noah

@Robusto Did the same.

@Robusto I think he considers this a GR. If you read, in one of his comments he gave a link to a Wiki page that describes the same topic.

Robusto

15:02

@Noah Hmm. Then why don't we simply shut the site down and redirect everyone to Wikipedia? There are plenty of answers on this site that hinge on a single Wikipedia article. Why aren't they all closed?

Cerberus

@Robusto Yeah. If it's worse than your answer, it is annoying. If better, humiliating.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto because we're inconsistent and fickle.

Cerberus

made mousse au citron

Robusto

@Cerberus Most often the former than the latter.

Cerberus

Probably.

Matt Эллен

15:05

@Cerberus lemony!

Cerberus

Okay, shower time!

Robusto

Thalassa or thalatta — the former or the latter?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Thanks!

Robusto

@MattЭллен Get thee behind me, Satan!

Cerberus

Double s is Ionic (i.a.), double t is Attic.

Both are perfectly good literary dialects.

Robusto

15:06

@Cerberus It was meant as a joke. But thanks for clearing that up. Xenophon thanks you from the bottom of Hades.

Cerberus

Indeed.

I believe he used the Ionic variant.

Robusto

@Cerberus To great effect in his Anabasis.

Cerberus

Yes.

Okay, now it's really shower time, later!

Robusto

@Cerberus: Before you go, wait a sec.

Cerberus

I will consider it.

Hmm what to do, what to do...

Robusto

15:08

Consider casting a reopen vote on the narrative nonfiction question.

Cerberus

Where?

Robusto

Scroll up to @Reg's last post.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto No flirting in chat!

Robusto

@MattЭллен Since when did you opt for the No-Fun Program?

It's really the same as the Fun Program, except without the fun.

Cerberus

Done.

Matt Эллен

15:11

JA rule. Him say no fun.

@Cerberus did you even turn on the shower?

Cerberus

The core of the matter would be that narrative means a story, and non-fiction means at least based on some real facts/theories.

@MattЭллен Doing it now! Bai.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh!

EL&U is non-fiction, except that it's all made up.

Noah

15:31

@Robusto Then what does GR exactly mean?

> This question is too basic; it can be definitively and permanently answered by a single link to a standard internet reference source designed specifically to find that type of information.

RegDwighт

Stupid Community user broke my stuff.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Hey, no ragging on Community in this chat. I thought we'd been over that.

RegDwighт

english.stackexchange.com/posts/92163/revisions

The whole point of my edit was that it's a question covering two entirely different issues, which seems to have flewden over everybody's heads.

And both issues are dupes.

I even left a comment!

Robusto

@RegDwighт Well, the last person who edited it is, as we know, anal-retentive when it comes to punctuation. I think he must be stopped before he turns everything into community wiki and, also, too pretty to live.

RegDwighт

15:46

But it wasn't tchrist. It was Community ♦. So someone suggested an edit, and someone else approved it.

But I don't have time right now to research it further. I'll just edit it right back in.

Now off to the grocery mobile!

tchrist

@RegDwighт I am innocent.

@Robusto Although I do not believe it applies to this case, I have noticed that moderators sometimes use the Community as honorable cover for not revealing private information linked to particular users.

Noah

@tchrist No, you are harmless.

tchrist

I had thought that one could see who both approved suggested an edit, but now I don’t see how to do that.

Johan Larsson

@Noah did you have any luck with butter?

tchrist

Well, I’ll be dinglesnorted: sexuid is signed!

Matt Эллен

15:56

@tchrist yeah, shouldn't it appear in the review queue's history? I can't see it, though.

Noah

@JohanLarsson Havent applied it yet. Will need to go home to do that. I am outside right now. But will ping you...

@MattЭллен There might be something wrong with SE caching. I think things get messed up sometimes when they are in cache.

Matt Эллен

maybe

tchrist

@MattЭллен Not exactly, but in this instance I believe we can rightly infer the culprit.

@RegDwighт Only Kris (hardly the most lucid of our high-rep users) and coleopterist seem in the running here. They are the only two edit-reviewers in the last day, and Kris’s last edit of her own was two days ago. Whereas coleopterist’s was 9h ago, but I think edit-reviews are accounted separately from edits — and so I believe we can deduce that in this pair we have identified our two agents of collusion in this matter.

@Robusto That seems somewhat heavily ornamented in predicative position.

Robusto

@tchrist I call that shiny.

RegDwighт

18:20

@tchrist actually the queue is empty for the last two days.

english.stackexchange.com/tools/…

So, no idea.

Martians, likely.

tchrist

Cosmic rays.

RegDwighт

Yeah. Shame on Cosmic. I'll go with IAR or Hiware from now on.

tchrist

Eep, JR said more seldomly, thusly proving the extreme productivity of -ly for marking even adverbs adverbier.

RegDwighт

Adverbierlier.

Gnintendo

18:40

Is this a proper comma usage:

"[...] in the revived classical Greek technique of contrapposto, or weight shift."

RegDwighт

I have no objections.

Gnintendo

I feel awkward with the use of the word or

I mean, it sounds perfectly fine

what makes this a proper comma usage?

RegDwighт

The same thing that makes any usage proper: usage.

Gnintendo

what rule specifically, I mean

RegDwighт

Again, punctuation rules are not something written down with handy numbers for easy referral. (Except in style guides, perhaps. But even so, they are style guides, and style guides.)

But to stay with this particular example, try to get rid of the comma and see how strange it looks.

Or better yet, sounds.

Read the sentence aloud.

"the revived classical Greek technique of contrapposto, or weight shift" is not the same as "the revived classical Greek technique of contrapposto or weight shift".

The comma reflects that. That pause.

It's a parenthetical.

Comma

The comma is a punctuation mark, and it appears in several variants in various languages. It has the same shape as an apostrophe or single closing quotation mark in many typefaces, but it differs from them in being placed on the baseline of the text. Some typefaces render it as a small line, slightly curved or straight but inclined from the vertical, or with the appearance of a small, filled-in number 9. It is used to separate parts of a sentence such as clauses and lists of three or more things. The comma is used in many contexts and languages, principally for separating things. Accordi...

> Commas are often used to enclose parenthetical words and phrases within a sentence (i.e., information that is not essential to the meaning of the sentence). Such phrases are both preceded and followed by a comma, unless that would result in a doubling of punctuation marks, or the parenthetical is at the start or end of the sentence.

Gnintendo

18:49

hmph

RegDwighт

Well, what is your beef with the comma? If you have a strong case, certainly you will have strong arguments. If you don't have a strong case, let it go and live a happy life.

As the name says, think of it as a parenthesis.

> in the revived classical Greek technique of contrapposto (or weight shift).

Robusto

19:16

@RegDwighт Is it possible to substitute bacon for the beef that come with the commas?

RegDwighт

19:34

@Robusto My posse is on Broadway, so I can't tell if it is posseble.

Robusto

So drink a posset and see if that helps.

RegDwighт

drinks

Wow, it has yeholpen!

user19161

20:40

I find that there are too many commas on SE.

Matt Эллен

what,,,,,,?

Robusto

20:52

0

Q: Single word meaning "hot and cold"?

Is there a single word that means both 'hot and cold'-- meaning one word that conveys a fluctuation/oscillation of temperature?

words

Someone's just messing with us now.

Mitch

@WillHunting woo hoo! I don't know how I did that. It's like a whole bunch of random unknown-to-me people recognized the superiority of my answers, but none on the same one.

Nw you can never delete yourself or it will all fall apart.

@Robusto I'm going to start asking SWR for a random pair of concepts. "What's a word meaning you don't get a long with your parents but the meat us undercooked?"

tchrist

@Robusto That’s quite intemperate of them.

Robusto

I think it's all about relativity.

Mitch

@tchrist add as an answer.

Robusto

@Mitch Good plan. You can never run out of those.

Mitch

20:57

Exactly.

Well...you'd run out of words first.

tchrist

@Mitch Fine, but why I get yelled at, I’m sendin’ the ragposse your way.

user19161

21:56

@Mitch Loser is the word.

user19161

Could the mods delete less comments? I find that many interesting ones are being deleted.

user19161

@Robusto Sorry, I had to cast a delete vote for that one @tchrist!

tchrist

@WillHunting Damn it, you are supposed to bitch @Mitch not @me!

user19161

@tchrist But anyway, I did not downvote your answer. There are some people here who downvote answers simply because they think the question should be closed, I am not one of them.

user19161

I only downvote poorly written questions and completely wrong answers.

tchrist

22:22

@#$% the ESLers. This place is complete trash today.

RegDwighт

@Robusto clearly he is looking for Katy Perry.

►

user19161

@tchrist You really think the comma before whether is mandatory? Hmm.

RegDwighт

God in Heavens, that's one hogawfully stupid video.

user19161

Also, no votes for any of the answers here? english.stackexchange.com/questions/92119/…

RegDwighт

And that's the finest song she's ever had, mind you.

tchrist

22:34

@WillHunting You have to do something to distinguish it from the other kind of thing you would expect to see there.

user19161

@matt Still up?

Matt Эллен

yarp. just relaxing after all the word i've written today

RegDwighт

@Mitch such a shame it would be a dupe.

@MattЭллен I suggest you write Excel tomorrow. For faster results, however, just buy it.

Matt Эллен

:Þ

tchrist

@WillHunting “I don’t know whether she is coming” vs “I don’t know whether she comes or not just what I would do.”

Matt Эллен

22:39

wow. ultra strong sense of déjà vu

RegDwighт

Nobody ever knows whether she is coming, or what to do. QED

user19161

I have successfully infected two SE rooms with QED.

user19161

Very soon, the OED will pick up this usage of QED and attribute it to me.

tchrist

@WillHunting There is a counterexample in LotR: ‘Don’t take names to yourself, Sméagol,’ said Frodo. ‘It’s unwise whether they are true or false.’ But there are a hundred with a parentheticalizing for each that lacks it.

RegDwighт

Unless there's a mountain on the precincts, of course. Then you'll see her coming.

user19161

22:42

I am not even sure what Reg is saying anymore.

user19161

There are many downvotes and few upvotes this weekend. Perhaps the turkey has gotten into the neurons.

RegDwighт

►

Matt Эллен

good night, chatters

user19161

@MattЭллен See you in your dreams.

RegDwighт

0

A: What is the origin of the phrase "egg in your beer"?

I think this is a long held misnomer. It is not "Whaddaya want? Eggs in your beer?", which has no credible meaning. "Eggs" was a misinterpretation of "ice". "Whaddaya want? ICE in your beer?".....meaning, especially in WWII, you should be thankful for a beer, even if it isn't ice-cold, either in ...

Is this the Evan Carroll's brother?

> Power to the People, Mr. Know-it-all

tchrist

22:58

Or closer still.

@WillHunting Are you around?

user19161

@tchrist Yes, what's up?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…