English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MathCubes

00:05

2nd edit

'Let us celebrate the shine of another New Year’s presence upon us while yesteryear’s aurora slides away into the bliss, holding our glaring achievements. Welcome into the future of 2024 -- a future of our heightened potential will shine even more brightly and our accomplishments will shine even brighter!'

3rd edit
'Let us celebrate the luminance of another New Year’s presence upon us while yesteryear’s aurora slides away into the bliss, carrying our glaring achievements of 2023. Welcome into the future of 2024 -- a future of elevated potential and our future accomplishments will shine even brighter!"

jlliagre

00:30

A l'an que ven, si sian pas mai, que siguen pas mens !

Laurel

@MathCubes No matter which version, they all sound a bit like purple prose (but that could just be a matter of taste). It looks like you found some of the errors in your first revision. Other than that "into the bliss" sounds better without the definite article ("into bliss"), "glaring achievements" sounds bizarre because "glaring" usually shows up in expressions like "glaring errors"...

"the future of 2024" sounds like something happening after 2024, tho I guess I could be interpreted the way you want it to, you should use a real en/em dash ("–" or "—"), and lastly "a future of elevated potential and our future accomplishments" is a garden path (if not completely wrong) because I expect the sentence to end there instead of having "and" be joining a second sentence

I would just use two sentences: "Welcome into the future of 2024 — a future of elevated potential. Our future accomplishments will shine even brighter!"

MathCubes

Something like this? "Let us celebrate the luminance of another New Year’s presence upon us while yesteryear’s aurora slides away into bliss, carrying our glaring achievements of 2023. The future of 2024 – a future of elevated potential and our future accomplishments will shine even brighter!"

Thanks

These were the previous years if curious

"2016 - Welcome to the future in 2016 while the rest of the world follows.
2017 - Happy new year! Let us go to the future together while the rest of the world fellow us! Welcome to 2017!
2018 - Lets us honor the presence of the New Year's to bring us into the future together while the rest of the world fellows! Welcome to 2018!
2019 - The global ripple of a translation towards another Gregorian New Year's is moving through us and upon the following world! Welcome to the future, welcome into 2019!

Laurel

@MathCubes Other than the last part (which I clarified) yeah

@MathCubes By the way, I think you mean "make a fool of"

MathCubes

foul

Because one of the years I sent out "fellow" for "follow"

Robusto

Blossom Puzzle, December 31
Letters: A E G L I R T
My score: 328 points
My longest word: 10 letters
🌻 💐 🌸 🌹 🏵 🌼 🌷 🌺 💮 🌻

MathCubes

00:39

Would you put something like this at the end?

"Welcome into the future of 2024 — a future of elevated potential. Our future accomplishments will shine even brighter. Happy New Years’!"

@Laurel

Is there any more polemic way of saying "happy new years"?

Laurel

@MathCubes You shouldn't have a plural possessive there. "Happy New Year!" See thesaurus.com/e/grammar/new-years

MathCubes

Thanks

Thought?

Robusto

It almost sounds like the same voice is singing all these different languages.

Laurel

@MathCubes You could change "happy" to some other adjective, like "fantastic"

"Happy" is overused and therefore pretty weak as a word

MathCubes

Have a fantastic new year!
?

Laurel

00:48

Yeah that works. You've changed the capitalization tho, but I don't think it's incorrect either way

MathCubes

Is there a way to put more life into it?

I read another phase online 'cheers to the new year' It sounds cheesy but.

Laurel

@MathCubes Make it a gif? XD

MathCubes

Yeah true

"Welcome into the future of 2024 — a future of elevated potential. Our future accomplishments will shine even brighter. Have a very blissful New Year!"

I wounder what would sound better blissful or wounderful

Laurel

@MathCubes Well certainly don't spell it that way

Didn't you already use "bliss" earlier in the message?

MathCubes

Oh I thought it would have been better to just drop what came before this

As you said

Laurel

00:57

Ah

MathCubes

After thinking about it I sorta agreed. Most people do not want to read a paragraph though some do enjoy it.

Laurel

You could really do either word

MathCubes

ok

jlliagre

01:42

Blossom Puzzle, December 31
Letters: A E G L I R T
My score: 260 points
My longest word: 9 letters
💐 🏵 💮 🌻 🌸 🌹 🌷 🌺 🌼

Robusto

@jlliagre I got close to a record on Octordle today, but fell three short of a tie, four short of a true record. Scores like that don't happen too often.

tchrist

02:01

@jlliagre O a l’any?

jlliagre

@tchrist That's Provençal.

tchrist

Ah.

It scanned as Catalan, mostly.

But I wondered whether there were some distinction like between French ans and années that I were unaware of.

jlliagre

a l’an que ven que se siam pas mai que siguem pas mens

== Occitan == === Étymologie === Étymologie manquante ou incomplète. Si vous la connaissez, vous pouvez l’ajouter en cliquant ici. === Locution-phrase === A l’an que vèn ! Que se sian pas mai, que siguen pas mens. \A ˈl‿ɑn ke βɛn, ke se ˈsjan pas maj, que siˈɣen pas ˈmens\ « À l’année prochaine, si nous ne sommes pas plus, que nous ne soyons pas moins ! » (Se dit le 31 décembre à minuit) ==== Variantes ==== A l’an que vèn ! Se siam pas mai, que siguem pas mens. A l’an que ven ! si siam pas maï que siam pas men (en Provence ; mais il faudrait en réalité employer le subjonctif en prov...

tchrist

Still no written standard, or just too many variants for that?

jlliagre

Provençal is traditionally written with the Mistralian orthography, distinct from the more usual Occitan one.

It has both an and annado.

tchrist

02:09

Ahah.

Parlez-vous le sud ? Que veut dire an que vèn ?

►

Cerberus

Happy new year, everyone!

jlliagre

Bono annado !

Robusto

新年になる (shinnen ni naru, "the new year begins")

jlliagre

Mistralian norm

The Mistralian norm is a linguistic norm for the Occitan language. It was first used in a published work by Joseph Roumanille in 1853, and then by Frédéric Mistral in 1854. Its aim is to make Provençal Occitan orthography more logical, relying on a mix of traditional spelling and French spelling conventions. The Tresor dòu Felibrige, published by the Félibrige in 1878, was written entirely in the Mistralian norm. == Comparison == Some features include: Using the letter o to represent a final [ɔ] or [o], where Classical Occitan uses a. For example, chata becomes chato in the text above. Using...

Robusto

Habt ein glückliche neue Jahr.

Cerberus

02:18

+ss

jlliagre

Paci è saluta a tutti !

Cerberus

Plural peace?

jlliagre

@Cerberus Southern Corsican singular.

Cerberus

Fascinating.

Robusto

@Cerberus Verzeihung. "... ein glückliches neues Jahr."

I am so rusty on German.

I even barely saved that last one.

Cerberus

02:29

Few people remember those paradigms!

Dannyu NDos

03:08

0

Q: So Familiar, Yet So Misunderstood

Anna says: You have those I ask for size Though not everything inside Completing the order of queue That's how I acquire you Alex says: Number of queues I cannot count Joined to pose you, a new fount Another copy of you That's completion to go through Tommy says: Already so complete own No b...

Critiques on the poem?

tchrist

03:33

> Soon finding that poetry afforded no balm to her sorrow, she
determined to try a little singing, and that it should not be
loud enough to heard throughout the house, but did not care if it
were sufficiently so to awaken her husband; her strains had
nothing in them of the hushaby, more resembling the wild notes of
Crazy Jane; but be that as it may, they operated upon Snoozle as
an opiate, who seemed to be lulled, instead of disturbed, by the
notes of his wife, who, finding her vocal rather militate against

Or this one:

> As soon as my lord Mohun was taken, the first question he asked was, If Hill was apprehended? And when he was told he was not, he said he was glad of it, and he did not care if he were hanged for him.

> Take a believer in his right frame, you would find he does not
care if the day of judgment were ere he sleeped; he does not care
if all the world were in a red flame, as it will be, when that
day comes; he does not care if the sound of the last trumpet were
going through the four winds of heaven.

> Told Mr Rowan that he did not care what punishment he would inflict on him; that he did not care if he were sent off to Botany Bay, as he was tormented.

> It is not sufficient barely to state that the ship and cargo were within the jurisdiction of the foreign Court, where it is not stated what the cause of complaint was, or whether it were a criminal or civil proceeding which was instituted or by whom the charge was preferred.

> Nevertheless their own similitudes and instances make against
themselves: for suppose a man had never read or heard of sun or
moon, fire, candle, &c., and should be brought to behold a light,
yet in such sort as that the agent or cause efficient from which
it proceeded were kept hidden from him; could such a one, by
beholding the light, certainly know whether it were produced by
the sun or moon &c.? Or if one heard a voice, and had never known
the speaker, could he know from whom in particular that voice

> And whether in the same place he set not some mark upon heretics that will
agree to your church? Whether all the authority of our bishops in England
before the reformation was conferred on them by the pope? And if it were,
whether it were the pope's right or an usurpation? If it were his right,
whether by Divine law or ecclesiastical? And if by ecclesiastical only,
whether he might possibly so abuse his power, as to deserve to lose it?

> I do not care whether it be “cajolery” or not: nor will you care.

Which all goes to prove that Sheldon was right, and that all the answers affirming the contrary proposition unsupported by factual corporal evidence as shown above are just more random internet yahoos barking out their own uninformed opinions without examining actual data. Typical.

1

Q: If Richard Feynman was or were a purple leprechaun?

In this scene (link) from The Big Bang Theory Sheldon corrects Penny saying she forgot to use the subjunctive: Penny: Leonard, it's three o'clock in the morning! I don't care if Richard Feynman was a purple leprechaun who lived in my butt! Sheldon: Penny meant "If he were a purple leprechaun. Pe...

grammar subjunctive-mood

Mitch

04:31

Dec 26, 2023 at 15:46, by Mitch

Bon Bout d'An à Tous!

tchrist

@Mitch Julian calendar? :)

alphabet

05:41

0

Q: I like riding to work in my friend's car. Is it right?

Could I use 'ride' like this: I like riding to work in my friend's car. Thank you in advance!

word-usage

I'm not sure what we do with these. Move them to ELL? Close because the user should check a dictionary? Close because it's proofreading? Dunno.

alphabet

06:00

Metrical analysis of pop songs, part 2:

/      x   /   x   /  x  /
There's a stranger in my bed
/       x  /  x    /  x  /
There's a pounding in my head
/   x    /  x /   x  /
Glitter all over the room
/    x   /  x  /  x   /
Pink flamingos in the pool
/   x     /  x  / x  /
I smell like a minibar
/ x  /      x    /  x  /
DJ's passed out in the yard
/   x   /  x   /  x  /
Barbies on the barbecue
/   x   /  x  /  x  /
This a hickey or a bruise?

Pros:
* Every line actually has the same rhythm
Cons:
* Gets the stress on *over* wrong, and puts stress on *I* rather than *smell* in *I smell*

6/10

Laurel

07:23

Happy +1 year!

CowperKettle

09:24

Yes, happy YEAR++, my friends,
And grow BITWISE before it ends.

As Elinor Wylie said in 1923,
“In masks outrageous and austere,
The years go by in single FILE;
But none has merited my fear,
And none has quite escaped my :)”

CowperKettle

10:28

Зверский детектив — Русский трейлер (2023)

►

CowperKettle

13:22

Good Morning USA!

Up, lads: thews that lie and cumber
Sunlit pallets never thrive;
Morns abed and daylight slumber
Were not meant for man alive.

Mitch

14:30

@tchrist nah just anticipating

jlliagre

14:46

@Mitch That's okay, bon bout d'an can be said during the whole holiday season up to new year's eve, similar to Bonne fin d'année.

Robusto

@CowperKettle Sometimes ya just gotta sleep in!

Robusto

15:05

Wordle 926 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟨⬛🟩⬛⬛
🟨🟩🟨⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Vikas

Happy new year everyone!

"2024" looks visually nice number to me. Hope it would be a nice year for everyone.

The last time a year that looked visually nice to me was "2020".

MetaEd

Wordle 926 4/6

⬛🟨🟨🟨⬛
⬛⬛🟩🟩🟩
🟩⬛🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Happy the odometer turned over day

Robusto

15:23

tchrist

16:05

11246

Mitch

@jlliagre I never know when to say any of these things

When do you start, when do you stop.

That one sounds like the end rather than the start

Also, I saw it on a map where it seems that it t is very marseillaise and not anywhere else. So you recognize it as common or regional?

(those maps can be very misleading)

jlliagre

18:39

@Mitch It is very regional. I only heard it in the Bouches-du-Rhône. I was born in Marseille and raised mostly around there and in Corsica too, so I'm familiar with both cultures. Elsewhere in France, people would likely be puzzled by Bon bout d'an and maybe confuse it with Bon boudin if pronounced with a strong Marseillais accent :-)

Robusto

19:09

Daily Octordle #707
9️⃣4️⃣
5️⃣🔟
8️⃣6️⃣
🕛🕚
Score: 65

Back from the empyrean.

MetaEd

happy 11111101000.

tchrist

19:29

Felix MMDCCLXXVII AUC.

2

M.A.R.

19:46

@jlliagre extra crispy France

@CowperKettle no grandpa I don't wanna wake up at 5 a.m. every day

@MathCubes Yeesh

Put that energy into solving world hunger or something

Forget world hunger. What about my hunger?

Today I worked so hard I forgot about lunch. The rice is now like some sort of jerky.

jlliagre

Wordle 926 5/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛🟩⬛
🟨🟩⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

tchrist

@M.A.R. Don't worry, that only happens if you fall asleep while milking the cows.

jlliagre

20:07

Bon 11 nivôse 232.

Lambie

@tchrist Would you help me with a person on ELL who keeps INSISTING that one cannot add a tag for a question as I did? The person did not know what historical present was in narration. The complainant says if the OP doesn't specifically ask What is X, you cannot say that X is such and such as it is not in the question! What about not knowing a thing?

tchrist

@Lambie You added a tag he didn't like, did you?

Lambie

Yes, I explained the OP was unknowingly referring to the historical present (narration by the BBC): Here is the link: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/345892/… He is going on and on about my answer re historical present and hassling me about the link I tried to add!

tchrist

Be nice to him.

I haven't read it yet. Just saw whom you meant.

Lambie

I am being nice. It is he who is haranguing me. On and on and on.

tchrist

20:12

He's always been reasonable in the past. But now I'll try to read it.

I would just purge the comments, if it were me.

Lambie

OK, thanks. It seems pretty obvious that if an OP asks a question and doesn't know it's a "thing" and you explain it, our job is done.

Just please read through them and I will then delete them.

tchrist

The policy making about tags or nontags should probably be on ELL meta.

I don't understand his position.

The tags were better beforehand. They are not intended to be about what the asker THINKS he is asking about, because he will seldom know the technical groupings.

I would simply leave ColleenV's edit in place if it were me.

Probably one should post a more general policy question to ELL meta about these matters. I don't know that there can be a definitive answer that works networkwide.

Remember that tags are there to help future visitors.

Not to help the current asker, except insofar as they may someday attract better answers because someone was focusing on that tag, but that's a secondary effect.

apaderno

@tchrist No, She did not. The tag was added by somebody else.

tchrist

ColleenV's tags make sense to me.

I realize the asker would not have thought of these.

apaderno

Right, so Lambie cannot say she added the tag.

jlliagre

20:22

Daily Octordle #707
7️⃣3️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
🔟4️⃣
🕚🕛
Score: 64

apaderno

As I already said, tags are for the questions, not the answers. If a question is asking why the Simple Present tense is used, and how if the sentence is an example of historic present, the tag cannot be used.

tchrist

It cannot?

Why not, because it is itself the answer in some fashion?

We've got another that's probably about to emigrate thither where tags are going to be an issue; but this one is about using the present to mean the future.

apaderno

The answer says it's an example of historic present usage. If another answer said it's because in English the Simple Present is used also for future events, would the question have also a tag for that?

tchrist

0

Q: What's the correct future form?

Given the following sentence: Next month, Maggie ______(meet) her sister in Japan. Which one of these, "is meeting" and "is going to meet" is the suitable future form?

meaning grammaticality expression-choice continuous-aspect will-be-going

So that one is probably the "future present" or "present future" or something.

apaderno

On Stack Overflow, would you add perl to a question just because an answer is about Perl?

I do not think.

Lambie

20:27

How do you know who added the tag?? [quizzical]

tchrist

@Lambie It's in the edit history.

@apaderno Certainly not.

Okay, so the basic problem with the ELL question is that the asker has managed to confuse tense and time.

apaderno

Revisions says who did what. I can also say "revision #4."

Lambie

Well, that means someone agreed with my answer and then added the tag. This all seems pretty kosher to me. We add info when OP's don't know something...are we even talkling about this?

tchrist

He thinks that over the coming months "must" be about the future and thus the ensuing verb "must" take will.

The reference frames differ.

apaderno

Agreeing with an answer does not mean that the person can add a tag that is related to your answer.

tchrist

20:31

@apaderno I had not yet read the answers.

Lambie

Yes, anyone with enough points can add tags. You can have up to five tags. Not only the OP can use a tag or add a tag.

apaderno

That would happen even with Tomorrow I travel to New York. That is not historic present, even if I am using the Simple Present for something that happens in the future.

@Lambie Still, tags are not added to express agreement with an answer. (I hope not.)

tchrist

@apaderno True.

Lambie

The original sentence the OP is questioning is this: "Over the coming months, the giraffes range far and wide." That is narrative present aka historical present. So adding a tag is fine.

apaderno

In fact, the first comment on that question says exactly that.

Lambie

20:34

Tomorrow I travel to NY is a different use of the Simple Present.

The broader context in the OP's question is a BBC article or video. Not a single sentence made up by FF for purposes of illustration of a different use of present simple.

apaderno

But not historic-present that would make seem the OP knows about historic present and asks Why is the Simple Present tense used in this sentence?

Lambie

The simple present is used in that sentence as historical present or present of narration. I'm done. I hope tchrist weighs in by saying I have reason [joke].

tchrist

I wonder what Indo-European language the asker speaks natively, in case that biases his tense-vs-time understanding enough that it leads to incorrect hunches about these matters.

apaderno

The funny part was reading I asked to a one star mod in ELL chat when there was no message in chat.

tchrist

I would not get too twisted up about pseudo-formal names for all these many types of construction, although I know that learners for whatever reason are prone to do so. Native speakers don't learn this way.

apaderno

20:39

@tchrist I can say in Italian using the Simple Present tense or even the future tense for something happened in the past is possible. We have historic present too.

tchrist

@apaderno Yes, exactly. That's why I asked. These things are also completely normal in Romance.

But I don't know anything beyond Romance or Germanic, so perhaps he's from somewhere to the east where you don't get away with these practices. I don't know any Slavic, or even Celtic, languages.

Lambie

Well, what's wrong with explaining one of the many uses of present simple like that? Answer: Nothing.

apaderno

@Lambie You are confusing an answer with using a tag in a question. One is not related with the other one.

I didn't say anything about your answer.

Oh right, you also think I down-voted your answer.

No, I didn't.

Because when I cast a vote, it is shown.

tchrist

Yup.

apaderno

@tchrist I cannot say which one is the user's first language. From the display name, yunus, would you understand that? ;)

Lambie

20:50

No, I don't care who downvoted my answer. I care that my answer is right for a BBC narrative comentary using the simple present. It does not show it was you!

tchrist

Well, it's the Islamic version of the Biblical figure we call Jonas in English.

So perhaps he does not speak an Indo-European language.

Jonah in Islam

Yunus ibn Matta (Arabic: يُونُس ٱبْن مَتّىٰ, romanized: Yūnus ibn Mattā) is a prophet and messenger of God (Allah). Yunus is traditionally viewed as highly important in Islam as a prophet who was faithful to God and delivered his messages. Yunus is the only one of the Bible's Twelve Minor Prophets to be named in the Quran. The tenth chapter of the Quran is named after him.In the Quran, Yunus is mentioned several times by name, as an apostle of Allah, and as Dhul-Nun (Arabic: ذُو ٱلنُّوْن). == Quranic mentions == In Al-Anbiya 21:87 and Al-Qalam 68:48, Yunus is called Dhul-Nūn (Arabic: ذُو ٱلنُّو...

apaderno

@Lambie Indeed it doesn't show it was me. I did not down-vote your answer. Yet, you posted a comment saying I should not have down-voted your answer. You did not even ask if I down-voted it.

@tchrist Interesting... I should read the Italian name to understand who is. :)

Lambie

This is what I posted: In any case, I received two downvotes on my answer. My goodness. And even if you don't like that, my answer certainly does not deserve a downvote. ///That does not say it was you. You can not like it and someone else dv it.

alphabet

I must admit I dislike the term "simple present," not that I have a better one. You can use it to describe past events and future events in certain contexts, but you can't use it to describe present events that are currently ongoing.

tchrist

@apaderno Giona.

alphabet

20:56

"So yesterday, I'm coming home from work and I see this guy..." -- Correct, describing a past event.
"My flight leaves tomorrow." -- Correct, describing a future event.
"He cleans the house." -- Incorrect (if the cleaning is currently happening).

apaderno

@tchrist Yes, I found it. :)

Lambie

@alphabet Currently, I play tennis on Tuesdays. [correct, ongoing in a broader sense].

tchrist

> Jonás (en hebreo:יונה Yōnā "paloma", en griego:Ιωνάς Ionas, en árabe: يونس Yūnus) es un personaje bíblico, protagonista del libro homónimo

Spanish, French, Portuguese, and English all use Jonas.

alphabet

@Lambie Indeed. (Though even there, you're not necessarily playing tennis when you say it.)

tchrist

Of course Italian would not, but we don't need to go into why.

apaderno

20:58

@alphabet In Italian I could say Pulisce la casa. (He cleans the house.) even if it is currently happening.

alphabet

There are also exceptions where you can use the simple present to describe present ongoing events (e.g. running commentary), but those are exceptions.

@apaderno Exactly. That's how the present tense works in nearly every language except English, which uses the progressive a lot more.

apaderno

We do not have the progressive. We just have a way to express it, but it is not a tense.

Lambie

Italian and French don't have present continuous like we do. BUT Portuguese and Spanish have it just like English.

tchrist

Well, you have the gerund like Spanish and Portuguese have, but you use it less.

jlliagre

@tchrist Yunus native language is Turkish.

alphabet

21:02

@apaderno Arguably, English doesn't really have the progressive either; we just have a special sense of the word be that marks progressive aspect.

tchrist

> Gelsomina sta pulendo le scale, la Signora Pierracini apre la porta di casa.

apaderno

@tchrist That is different. We say Sbagliando si impara.

alphabet

In other words, the syntactic structure of "He was swimming" is the same as that of "He kept swimming."

tchrist

@apaderno I like those adverbial ones.

apaderno

@tchrist The key word is sta.

tchrist

21:03

What do you mean?

It's the finite verb, yes.

apaderno

Sta mangiando is not the same as mangiando.

tchrist

Sure.

apaderno

Mangiando for us would be a verb used as noun.

tchrist

mmm

apaderno

It's like Sbagliando si impara.

tchrist

21:05

We would call that an adverbial use not a nominal one.

apaderno

Sbagliando => the act of doing mistakes

tchrist

Surely it cannot be a substantive.

Lambie

Wouldn't it be mangiare is a verb used as a noun? We say: You learn from your mistakes. Making mistakes is how you learn. In English, you need a phrase.

tchrist

Estoy comiendo. Mi amigo salió gritando.

I'm eating. My friend ran out screaming.

apaderno

@alphabet In that case, in Italian would be the same, except that in our case the verb is stare.

tchrist

21:07

There are no nouns there.

Not in the gerunds, at least.

You cannot use these as subjects or objects in Spanish or Portuguese.

For that you'd need the infinitive.

apaderno

Gerundio => forma nominale del verbo

Lambie

making mistakes, not doing them. Also: making cake but doing laundry.

jlliagre

En se trompant, on apprend although it's more usually: On apprend de ses erreurs.

tchrist

> El gerundio es, en diversas lenguas, una de las formas no finitas del verbo, es decir, una forma verbal que no se define por rasgos tales como el tiempo, ni el modo, ni el número, ni la persona. Su definición más concreta puede variar de una lengua a otra; en castellano se suele definir como la forma verbal no finita que tiene características comparables a las de un adverbio.

apaderno

The gerund is an indefinite mood (or nominal form of the verb) of the Italian language used to indicate a process considered in its references to a second event.

Lambie

21:10

You can: Dançando se aprende, which is also the same in Spanish: Bailando se aprende. What's cool about Italian is that they have a single verb for making a mistake(s)

apaderno

(That is what Google Translate gives for Il gerundio è un modo indefinito (o forma nominale del verbo) della lingua italiana utilizzato per indicare un processo considerato nei suoi riferimenti ad un secondo avvenimento.)

alphabet

@apaderno Indeed. The only thing special about be is that it's an auxiliary, so e.g. if you turn those into questions you get "Was he swimming?" but "Does he keep swimming?"

tchrist

Reading the Italian wikipedia page, you are not using it differently than Spanish and Portuguese do.

Gerundio

Il gerundio è un modo indefinito (o forma nominale del verbo) della lingua italiana utilizzato per indicare un processo considerato nei suoi riferimenti ad un secondo avvenimento: Preferisco non parlare mangiando nello stesso momento.Le sue caratteristiche precise sono comunque variabili ed emergono solo nel contesto dell'intero enunciato. Sono paragonabili, con qualche differenza, nelle varie lingue romanze, che però si distinguono chiaramente, nell'uso di queste forme, dalla lingua latina. Questo modo ha due tempi: il presente (mangiando) e il passato (avendo mangiato), chiamasi anche gerundio...

apaderno

@Lambie Yes, sbagliare. We use more words where English uses just a word, though.

Lambie

With sbagliare you have one word, we don't have a single verb for make a mistake. You said it the wrong way round.

apaderno

21:13

@tchrist I could use mangiando as subject. I do not know Spanish enough to understand if that is the case.

tchrist

@apaderno Beber es vivir. :)

To drink is to live.

You cannot use the gerunds there.

apaderno

@Lambie I mean that in other cases, we cannot use a single word where English uses a single word.

@tchrist Right, but Sbagliare si impara. is wrong too.

tchrist

I am told, but have not heard it there myself, that sometimes in Brasil they sometimes informally use the gerund as a subject. You should not do that at least in Portugal.

@apaderno Exactly!

alphabet

@Lambie Surely the verb to err works.

apaderno

Mangiare è la mia passione.

tchrist

21:16

Yes, that's completely sane.

apaderno

Mangiando è la mia passione. (Nope!)

tchrist

Agree totally.

That's why we don't think of these as nominals, but as adverbials.

apaderno

Sono cresciuto guardando film di Tarantino.

tchrist

Sure.

You say it the same way, mutatis mutandis, in Spanish and Portuguese as well, but not in French.

Lambie

No, to err is not the same register as sbagliare. err is literary or formal. sbagliare is everyday language.

tchrist

21:18

But to forgive, divine?

Robusto

@tchrist Pero mi amigo salió perseguida por un oso.

Lambie

Yeah, well, do some about those bears, would you?

apaderno

(I thought that oso was bone.)

alphabet

@Lambie Indeed. I suppose the phrasal verb to fuck up works. (Or one of the more polite versions.)

apaderno

@alphabet In that case, you would not say sbagliare, in Italian. ;)

tchrist

21:21

@Robusto -o

@apaderno hueso

alphabet

I'm sure there's an interesting story behind why up became the particle in that construction.

Lambie

Yeah, well, we can't all be translators. Oso=bear, hueso=bone

apaderno

Fare cazzate would be a start; fare puttanate is an alternative.

tchrist

L ursus > ES oso

Lambie

Me ne fregga all this. Your ursine is showing.

tchrist

21:23

L os/ossis > LV ossum > ES hueso

apaderno

I will keep that in mind for when somebody tells me Italian is very similar to Spanish.

tchrist

It is so, compared with English. :)

apaderno

:Italian is closer to Latin than Spanish.

tchrist

Wait till you see what happened to oculum and oleum.

apaderno

In Italian that is easy: occhio and olio.

tchrist

21:25

Those should have both changed to the same final Spanish word, but those would have been too confusing that way since both are common words, so the Arabic supplanted/suppleted one.

oculum > olio > oxo > ojo

But oleum hits the same path.

Lambie

Penitenziagite, me chiamo Salvatore. [RIP, Umberto Eco!!!]

apaderno

Well, ojo seems Lombard. :D

jlliagre

I like the aceto / aceite collision.

Lambie

Not to mention ojete. A small eye for an anus.

Robusto

tchrist

21:26

Apr 24, 2018 at 14:25, by tchrist

> Penitenziagite! Vide quando draco venturus est a
rodegarla l’anima tua! La mortz est super nos! Prega
che vene lo papa santo a liberar nos a malo de todas
le peccata! Ah ah, ve piase ista negromanzia de Domini
Nostri Iesu Christi! Et anco jois m’es dols e plazer
m’es dolors... Cave el diabolo! Semper m’aguaita in
qualche canto per adentarme le carcagna. Ma Salvatore
non est insipiens! Bonum monasterium, et aqui se magna
et se priega dominum nostrum. Et el resto valet un figo
seco. Et amen. No?

Robusto

From The Winter's Tale by (who else?) Wm. Shakespeare.

But it is winter, and this is a tale, of sorts.

apaderno

oio e aset

Ve piase?

tchrist

@jlliagre You're making me hungry.

jlliagre

Vinaigrette

tchrist

@apaderno I may have mistyped it. I have the Italian printing.

apaderno

21:29

Now, that seems Venetian language. ;)

se magna

figo seco

Definitively, that is Venetian language.

I would add anca maza and ostregheta. ;)

(Or is it anca masa?)

Vincentin, magna gati

Also, that final No? seems a reference to Venetian language.

They are used to end sentences with No?

tchrist

Oh, do they do these things?

The bit of Provençal he throws in there stands out from the rest.

apaderno

@tchrist Are you asking if they eat cats? :D

jlliagre

> Nel mio Nome della Rosa appare un personaggio, Salvatore, che parla una lingua composta con pezzi di lingue diverse.

Lambie

@tchrist Yeah, Umberto must have had fun with that, huh? And the rest is worth a dry fig.

apaderno

But figo seco also means nothing.

tchrist

21:35

@apaderno No, fighi secchi.

But yes.

No vale un higo seco

Not worth nothing.

apaderno

Yes.

Non vale un fico secco. => Non vale niente.

Lambie

Well, I dunno which dialects he mixed up with Latin but it's brilliant.

tchrist

Why did Salvatore have no non there?

Lambie

Umberto Eco is brilliant [historical present].

Mitch

@jlliagre yep that's the map I saw

Lambie

21:39

Because there is no need to. If you say something is worthless, you can name it without using a negative. That's worth shite. Look, Mommy, no negative.

apaderno

Venetian language is a language. The Venetians are an ancient people.

@tchrist It's still Venetian.

jlliagre

@Mitch You can trust Mathieu Avanzi's maps. He is a smart linguist.

Mathieu Avanzi

Mathieu Avanzi, né le 26 mai 1981 à Chambéry (Savoie), est un linguiste et dialectologue français, universitaire en poste à l'université de Neuchâtel, en Suisse, où il est professeur ordinaire depuis 2022. Spécialiste des dialectes et expressions francophones, il dirige le Centre de dialectologie gallo-romane et d'étude du français régional de l'université de Neuchâtel. == Biographie == Mathieu Avanzi est né à Chambéry. Titulaire d'une maîtrise en sciences du langage de l'université Grenoble-Alpes en 2004, il obtient en 2011 son doctorat (universités de Neuchâtel et Paris-Nanterre), et devient...

apaderno

In Italian it would be non, but in Venetian it's no.

jlliagre

tchrist

I meant why did he not say Et el resto NO valet un figo seco?

@jlliagre Laurel?

Mitch

21:42

@jlliagre I trust his linguistic interpretation. I am a little unsure of the algorithm that computes the gradients from the base data.

apaderno

@tchrist Ed il resto vale un fico secco.

It seems correct, to me.

It's like saying Il resto vale una mela marcia.

tchrist

ok

jlliagre

@tchrist Looks like, and certainly not fig leaves.

apaderno

It means non vale niente, but we do not say non vale with fico secco or mela marcia.

tchrist

Those leaves wouldn't even cover up Eve let alone Adam. :)

Mitch

21:45

@jlliagre are the marseillaise and the Corsican accents the same? Or even similar?

tchrist

@Mitch Not same language.

That's like asking if Sardu and Ligurian have the same accents.

jlliagre

@tchrist I guess Mitch is asking their accents when speaking French.

tchrist

oh

apaderno

Are those bay leaves?

Mitch

I had always thought marseillaise was provençal influenced but Corsican French Tuscan/genoese influenced

jlliagre

21:49

@Mitch They are quite different, being originally based on different languages, although the Corsican accent is evolving toward being closer to the French Southern accent, due to a lot of people moving from and to the "Continent".

apaderno

Napoleone Bonaparte had Tuscan ancestors.

jlliagre

Corsican is close to Tuscan, sure.

apaderno

> Corsican is related to the varieties of Tuscan from the Italian peninsula, and therefore also to the Florentine-based standard Italian.

(Wiki says so.)

jlliagre

@apaderno So is closer to standard Italian than most if not all dialetti (outside toscano).

apaderno

@jlliagre Yes.

Trully, Italian dialects does not mean dialects of Italian.

jlliagre

21:52

I know.

apaderno

It means dialects spoken in Italy.

They are different languages.

I speak Eastern Lombard as second language.

The R is closer to German R than Italian R.

(Maybe I could say that is my first language.)

Mitch

Instead of a bon boudin I'd rather a saucisson savoureux

apaderno

dialetto bresciano

►

tchrist

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