English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

18:02

Looks like the title is actually "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" ...

We look to the Web as a source of truth and it tells us bloody lies.

KitFox

No, it's changed in the other book, innit?

Robusto

Wikipedia lists the contents of Harmonium as including the title "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" ...

Also:

Two Figures In Dense Violet Night

Two Figures in Dense Violet Night is a poem from Wallace Stevens's first book of poetry, Harmonium. It was first published in 1923., so it is still under copyright. Only its first stanza is quoted here. {| align=right border=1 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=2 style="margin-left:1em" style="margin-bottom:1em" |- align=left style="background:lightyellow" | Two Figures in Dense Violet Night :I had as lief be embraced by the porter at the hotel :As to get no more from the moonlight :Than your moist hand. :. :. :. :. |} Buttel reads the poem as about the "humorous disparity between...

KitFox

Huh.

Robusto

He also wrote "Of Hartford in a Purple Light" — which may explain somebody getting this one wrong.

@MattЭллен What, you don't nap when it's necessary?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I do, but I think it's should be in my contract :D

Robusto

18:13

How about wanking in the office — should that be in the contract, too?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto no. I'd rather not have to put up with the smell

ΜετάEd

@FumbleFingers Are we using the exclamation mark to identify Nortonn questions?

1

Q: After a government report

! Source "On Wednesday, US stocks rose after a government report that durable goods orders were higher than expected, the first gain since February. " Source2 "Overseas markets rose on the U.S. jobs report, and after a successful bond sale by debt-burdened Greece. Budget and debt ...

David Wallace

My 1973 dead-tree OED does not list dasky.

ЯegDwight

@ΜετάEd I would quote FF's comment in which he says yes, but it's on a deleted question.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Simon Pegg disagrees.

KitFox

18:20

I love that Simon Pegg. I could just eat him up.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto yeah, I side with Kevin Eldon

FumbleFingers

18:35

@ΜετάEd I have been, and I'm pretty sure at least some other users have copied my invention/convention.

Cerberus

Hello.

David Wallace

Can't you just flag them, and put "Nortonn S" in the flag reason? That's what I have done previously.

Cerberus

I'm about to embark on my date, but there's going to be extreme rain in a minute or so.

David Wallace

Good luck. I was wondering why you hadn't already left.

Cerberus

Heh.

Grace Note

18:43

@Cerberus Bring an umbrella

Cerberus

It's only 5 minutes by bike.

David Wallace

The umbrella is sold out.

Cerberus

@GraceNote Yes, I might.

But I only have a huge umbrella, and a small pink one.

Hmm the forecast is changing.

If I'm lucky, I can get there in between two torrents.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus there is extreme rain here right now

David Wallace

Which of the two would be more appropriate for the occasion, do you feel?

Matt Эллен

18:45

the wind is up

Cerberus

@MattЭллен D'oh, England!

@DavidWallace Neither. I think I'm going to gamble.

David Wallace

Aha, you are a dog of some iniquity!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it seems to have quietened, but it was heading east...

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I am!

Robusto

@Cerberus Maybe you should gambol instead.

Cerberus

18:46

@Robusto Always.

@MattЭллен Keep your rain at home, blerg!

David Wallace

But if you cycle, you might end up sweaty as well as rainy.

Cerberus

Nah, it's not far.

Grace Note

No, take the huge umbrella

You're there to meet company, no?

David Wallace

Then you can share it!

Cerberus

@GraceNote Yup.

It's nearly dry now.

Grace Note

18:48

@Cerberus So, huge umbrella would be useful to help company

Cerberus

@GraceNote Well, on a bikes, not really...

David Wallace

Take the huge umbrella. It will rain later; and you can show caringness by letting your date stand under it.

Cerberus

Heh.

David Wallace

Don't take the bike!

Cerberus

All right, why not.

Grace Note

18:49

David basically said what I was trying to say in a more forthright manner

Cerberus

@DavidWallace If I walk, I'll be late!

David Wallace

Then leave earlier!

tchrist

It is actually raining today, more seriously than anything since last spring. So I’ve worn my Colorado umbrella™: read, a proper rain coat.

Cerberus

Too late. Besides, he will surely come by bike too.

Okay, I'm leaving NAO.

Matt Эллен

This is Amsterdam, after all

David Wallace

18:49

Good luck.

Cerberus

Thanks for your advice!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus have fun!

Cerberus

@tchrist And you were mocking my umbrella...pah.

poof

Thanks!

Grace Note

Take care and have a good time!

Matt Эллен

toodles!

tchrist

18:58

@ЯegDwight Can you figure out what the poster is asking? I feel like they’ve something out:

0

Q: Postpone, delay and defer

I'm Russian and in Russian language we use one word if we want to say that something will happen later than it has been planned. So usually I have difficulty in choosing a proper word among them. I understand they bear slightly different tingles of meaning but hitherto I have failed to catch thi...

synonyms

ΜετάEd

Is there an appropriate tag for questions which ultimately have to do with typos, misspellings, eggcorns, etc.? I saw eggcorn.

Grace Note

@tchrist He's asking if there are differences in the meaning of the words "postpone, delay, defer"

They're synonyms, but essentially, what are the nuances that warrant having 3 words to represent the same thing

ΜετάEd

Corruption maybe?

tchrist

@GraceNote Oh. I thought he was saying that in Russian they use one word first for this or that, but that he had left out that in Russian they use that and this (some other circumstance).

Grace Note

@tchrist Now, I don't speak a lick of Russian, but my interpretation is "I have this word in Russian, that when translated could mean any of these three".

David Wallace

19:01

I like "different tingles of meaning". I would +1 the question just for that expression.

Grace Note

Wait, that is exactly what his first sentence says. "There's one word to express 'something will happen later than it is planned'". In English, we have 3 words, though, and there are nuances - what are those nuances.

tchrist

I wonder whether the Russian word includes both things intentionally moved forward in time, as in postponed or deferred, as well as those inadvertently moved forward, as in delayed.

Grace Note

I think in his perspective, the one Russian word is equivalently all three. There might actually be other Russian words but because his understanding of the three is limited, he can only map them to the one word (which makes sense, I can think of a lot of Chinese that falls the same way for me)

tchrist

Maybe @ЯegDwight knows.

David Wallace

@tchrist I don't think it matters. The question asks us to point out the differences between the three. How any of them are said in Russian is irrelevant to the question.

tchrist

19:04

@GraceNote This is one of the problems of bilingual dictionaries vis-à-vis monolingual ones. The diglots often list a whole bunch of not-quite-equal synonyms, and never give any differentiation.

Grace Note

@tchrist Aye to that

ΜετάEd

The tag errors seems to be very lightly used and have no description.

tchrist

@DavidWallace So this is GR then?

David Wallace

If there is a reference source that indicates the differences between the three, then yes. But it seems that the OP has already looked for one and failed. So closing it as GR would be dumb, IMO.

tchrist

Any standard reference source explains each of those words.

Asking what is the difference between foo and bar, when both are trivially looked up, seems GR to me.

How is it not so?

OED: defer: To put off (action, procedure) to some later time; to delay, postpone.

OED: delay: To put off to a later time; to defer, postpone.

OED: postpone: To put off to a future or later time; to defer.

David Wallace

19:10

So, how do those three entries indicate any difference in the meanings at all?

tchrist

Each is defined in terms of the others.

I don’t think he is going to get any joy here.

David Wallace

I certainly don't see a difference in those three definitions.

tchrist

Neither do I.

David Wallace

Anyone else in the room see a difference?

tchrist

David, would you please stop?

Grace Note

19:13

I think David's point is that there are nuances that the OED isn't showing there

David Wallace

Yes! OP has asked what those nuances are. OED has failed to tell him/her.

So, unless someone can cite a different dictionary, that DOES explain the nuances, then it's NOT GR; and should not be closed as GR.

TRiG

@tchrist You say that the OED does not show a difference, and yet you yourself said a little earlier that there is a difference, in that a delay is unintentional.

That being the case, there is a difference that the OED does not show, so the OED does not answer the question asked.

Robusto

@TRiG A delay may or may not be unintentional. Someone could delay release of damaging information on Mitt Romney until after the election, in which case it would be an intentional delay.

Grace Note

Can postponetion be a noun form of postpone, @Kit?

TRiG

@Robusto You're right. But my main point still stands. There is a difference between the three words. That difference was acknowledged by tchrist. The OED does not cover the difference. Therefore the OED does not answer the question asked.

KitFox

19:25

@GraceNote It's postponement, I think.

TRiG

@GraceNote Postponement, surely?

Though, the act of postponing may be a different word.

Shog9

You're all missing the point. He's asking which word is appropriate, but isn't providing any context. Not much you can do then, besides give examples of each word being used - which can certainly be found in most references.

David Wallace

But examples that highlight the differences?

Grace Note

@KitFox Aww, I was hoping there wasn't a word

KitFox

Sawree

Shog9

19:26

Presumably if he has a real problem, he can state it - at which point, it's not GR anymore.

Grace Note

Then I could add it to my list of words like "Ensuence" and "Surmisal"

KitFox

I felt it was sufficient.

I answered it.

Shog9

"I'm trying to solve a crossword puzzle that requires a five-letter word meaning 'to put off until a later time'. Which of these three words fits?"

David Wallace

Hmm, not "postpone" then :-)

Shog9

Just needs some txtspk

KitFox

19:29

Come now. It is a fine distinction.

Robusto

@KitFox I voted for your answer.

KitFox

Thanks.

ΜετάEd

I want to get a sense of the community standards for tagging. I was unable to find much searching meta, just a lot of discussions of individual tags.

Robusto

The other dude isn't making correct or meaningful distinctions.

> However, delay/defer carry more negative connotations, as these actions aren't necessarily pre-planned and carefully executed.

Wrong.

I can defer judgment without any negative connotations.

David Wallace

On another note, what's so special about this chat room that we currently have THREE parents supervising us?

KitFox

19:31

It's me.

They just love my company.

And they think my kids are adorable.

Robusto

I think they're here in case anyone starts insulting Islam.

Shog9

I'm just here trolling @Kit; the rest of you can ignore me

Anna Lear

I'm trolling @Shog9 by pretending to follow him everywhere.

David Wallace

How lovely for him.

Robusto

forces self not to insult Islam

Grace Note

19:37

@DavidWallace This is one of three rooms I'm usually in on a regular basis, barring periods that I am absent

David Wallace

So, you're always here, except for the times that you're not here. Is that what you're saying?

Grace Note

That's a way to put it, yes

Mitch

@GraceNote In between meals, I'm always fasting.

ЯegDwight

@GraceNote Russian, too, has OVER 9000 words.

ΜετάEd

AÍ! A BALROG HAS COME! Now that I have your attention, could you possibly point me to any community standards for tagging?

Robusto

19:40

@GraceNote Absent periods of absence, your presence is as it is at present?

Grace Note

@Robusto Nice double there.

ЯegDwight

I can take any Russian word and translate it in three different ways into English. Likewise, I can take any English word and translate it in three different ways into Russian.

But of course that's irrelevant to whether or not the question is valid.

Robusto

@ЯegDwight You're all talk.

Grace Note

@ЯegDwight I totally prefaced with "I don't speak a lick of Russian"

ЯegDwight

@Robusto You're not even talk.

Robusto

19:42

@ЯegDwight I am speech. That is better. Shall I make one for you?

ЯegDwight

@DavidWallace yeah, this.

David Wallace

@ЯegDwight Not the first time you've said something irrelevant.

Mitch

@ЯegDwight no it says English is bettern Russian because we got more barely distinguishable words. We win.

David Wallace

So, what harm is there in letting the question survive? And what harm is there in closing it? Is there any point in closing it?

Robusto

0

Q: Correct use of (I even don't know the term)

What's the correct usage for (of?) the following. Quality design provides a competitive (competative?) edge and helps your communicate more efficient (efficiently?). And Memorable user experiences help (helps?) customers fall in love. Are the words in brackets correct?

grammaticality american-english correction language-formation

I am suddenly speechless.

David Wallace

19:49

And tagged "American English" to boot. Clearly, non-Americans wouldn't speak like this!

Robusto

That is your refuge and your strength.

ЯegDwight

@Mitch I have just provided a dozen Russian translations of the measly three English verbs. Your turn. Catch up or shut up!

Speaking of which, I'm AFK.

KitFox

hiss So then he insults me. Can I suspend him immediately?

David Wallace

Who insulted you? I shall bring retribution upon them.

Robusto

@KitFox Magic Eight Ball says ... "Signs point to yes"

simchona

19:57

@KitFox He insulted @Robusto too

David Wallace

Oh, then forget about the retribution. We'll call it even.

Robusto

@Jawal: You need better insults. — Robusto 11 secs ago

simchona

He's not asking for proofreading, I think.

He's asking for how to use parenthetical statements. For example, "ELU is a great site (forum?)"

David Wallace

It's equivalent to proofreading.

simchona

He's asking for usage.

"How do I use these parenthetical statements correctly"

KitFox

20:00

Then he needs to ask that comprehensibly and not rudely.

simchona

@KitFox I don't disagree.

David Wallace

No, he only SAYS he's asking for usage. But his usage of usage is incorrect.

simchona

Just saying that I think, at the heart, there could be a better question.

@DavidWallace I don't think he's asking, "which word is correct?"

David Wallace

Ah, you always see the good in everyone, don't you, Simchona?

Mitch

@ЯegDwight those 'Russian' words are all made up. Tolkien's lost masterpiece. And if they -did- have all those words, that's just proving that Russian's are always late. Eskimos - snow, Russians - delay.

KitFox

20:01

You are welcome to it. Homey don't play that.

David Wallace

@simchona Umm, I think he is. If he isn't, he should. But not here.

Mitch

Cows - meh.

simchona

@DavidWallace If he clarifies, we'll see. But I think he's really asking 'how do I use parentheses like this if I'm unsure of which word is correct"

David Wallace

But he says "Are the words in brackets correct" - which would indicate otherwise.

simchona

I don't think he means the actual words.

Just the brackets.

David Wallace

20:03

Hmm, I see what you mean. Shall I edit the question, then vote to re-open it?

Mitch

yes.

simchona

Yes, please.

Mitch

jinx

argh...no 'pleasing'

Robusto

0

Q: How common is the misuse of "literally" to mean "figuratively"?

This question "Literally" and "Decimate" misuse addresses the misuse of the word "literally" to mean its opposite. I am curious as to how prevalent is such misuse. My hunch is that we are all so attuned to spotting incorrect usages that we over-estimate the frequency of ...

word-usage semantic-shift

Narq? OT? WTF?

KitFox

Don't we have a stats site?

Or maybe he could post on Skeptics.

David Wallace

20:07

@simchona Well, since the question could be interpreted two ways, I have asked him to clarify what he meant. If he indicates that he is asking about how to use parentheses, we can then do an edit.

@Robusto Don't get me started on "opaque" again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto "Belongs on Meta"?

KitFox

@DavidWallace You'll have to wait until tomorrow for his response.

Robusto

@DavidWallace I missed your first outburst on the topic. Please, go ahead and rant.

David Wallace

@KitFox Oh, did you do the "it's my ball and I'm going home" thing?

Robusto

Kit's is a masked ball.

KitFox

20:10

@DavidWallace I did the "you don't come in here and kick over my shit" thing.

David Wallace

I didn't know Kit had balls!

KitFox

Duh.

I just gave him a little slap on the wrist.

Nothing major.

David Wallace

Jul 3 at 3:44, by David Wallace

I think I mentioned to you recently, the NZ telecommunications company who marketed their new phone-boxes as "opaque", by which they meant "transparent".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto I voted "OT: belongs on Meta", because the question is about how to research something about English, not about English itself.

Actually the answer to that question would be great fodder for a blog post

KitFox

Maybe you should suggest it to him.

simchona

20:16

@KitFox I pinged you. I have a suspicion.

KitFox

Yeah, I know. I saw.

David Wallace

@simchona Take two aspirins and call me in the morning.

KitFox

Gotta run, bye!

David Wallace

cu

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So has everyone discussed the iphone 5 yet?

David Wallace

20:25

Why is everyone in this online community so obsessed with telecommunications technology?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's a kind of mental illness. It can only be cured by buying high-tech toys.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is not a cure. It is feeding an addiction.

David Wallace

Is it catching?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think it's genetic. Or generational.

Robusto

Commute.

ЯegDwight

20:37

@Mitch fun fact of the millenium: eskimos have exactly one word for snow.

In fact, guess which site of the network has a question for that.

8

Q: Do the Eskimo/Inuit languages really have more words for snow than English

I've read in some sources that there are more words in the Eskimo/Inuit language to describe types of snow that have arisen out of necessity. I've also read in other sources that this is just urban legend and that they really don't have any more words for snow. What is the correct metric used t...

loan-words urban-legend

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ЯegDwight Well, they have more than one word for snow.

ЯegDwight

But that's not the fun fact of the millenium.

David Wallace

I wish I could remember which language a former acquaintance of mine was studying, which she claimed had about thirty words for "a yellowish grey colour".

ЯegDwight

English.

David Wallace

I think it was one of the Gaelic varieties, actually.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:42

well, time for me to go...

ЯegDwight

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 fair thee well

ЯegDwight

We've completed yet another circle.

ΜετάEd

20:57

english.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/errors

I am so used to SE links oneboxing ... Ok the link above is to an existing tag errors. I have added a short description and I'm starting to curate it.

ΜετάEd

21:56

I killed the room.

Mitch

@ЯegDwight ...and English does have at least 50 for being drunk (...thinking... at least 51).

Pullum is great and all but his book is giant pedantic peeve.

Cerberus

23:27

Hello room!

@Mitch Thank you!

Robusto

23:49

@ЯegDwight Yes, but Whorf was a Klingon and didn't know any better.

@ЯegDwight According to the paper (if you read it all the way to the end) the writer says "they" (whoever is meant by the umbrella term "Eskimo") have about a dozen words for snow, maybe double that if you are liberal in your interpretation. English has a similar amount.

Cerberus

@Robusto You do know that most of what Whorf said was not true, don't you?

He was no linguist.

Pinker kicks his booty.

Amongst many others.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, of course I know that. I'm referring to the paper that debunks the notion of Eskimos as having as many as 200 words for snow.

Jul 27 at 16:13, by Robusto

Just for the record, Sapir-Whorff has been completely debunked. The fact that a language doesn't have a future tense, say, doesn't preclude its speakers from knowing that tomorrow exists and getting to their dentist appointment on Thursday.

How you not know this? Less than 2 months ago it was.

Cerberus

@Robusto Oh, excellent.

Robusto

Mar 23 at 18:21, by Robusto

> "Decade after decade, no one has turned up anything showing that grammar marches with culture and thought in the way that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis claimed."

Cerberus

Good.

Robusto

23:58

Jul 27 at 16:20, by Mitch

@Robusto not -completely-. The strong hypothesis sure, the weaker one ...only weakly. There's been research (not BS research but substantive stuff) that shows that people who speak some goofy language in Australia that has verb inflections that alwyas have to specify compass direction, well, those people are really good at doing mazes blind, or something like that.

Mitch disagrees, in a reserved, qualified and yet very general and unsubstantiated way.

tchrist

@Cerberus Worf: I'm a graduate of Starfleet Academy. I know many things.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…