English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

21:00

City and country each have their perquisites.

tchrist

They've just called off the evacuation warnings for Boulder County and downgraded some of those in both affected counties north of me from mandatory to warning level. The Incident Commander says it would take a much bigger snowstorm than a mere foot to put out the fire, though. The Cameron Peak Fire took a month to reach 160,000 acres; the East Troublesome Fire took a day.

Cerberus

Let's hope the cold and the snow shall continue or return soon.

Robusto

@tchrist That's good news.

tchrist

It will continue for another day. Then it will start to warm and dry again.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus What treaty is that? I wasn't aware of this.

tchrist

21:04

That's how close it got to the park entrance on the right hand side, and to the roads and campgrounds nearest the entrance.

You could throw a stone farther than the gap.

So that's how close it got to Estes Park.

Færd

Is your home in this picture?

tchrist

Cameron Peak was also pushing towards the town from the north.

@Færd No, that's the east entrance to Rocky Mountain National Park.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus A bakfiets is a cargo bike? Was just looking at the pictures. Cute.

tchrist

It's about 35 minutes north of me.

Færd

Ah.

tchrist

21:08

But the park is iconic.

Part of our pride and our heritage.

Færd

@Cerberus Interesting video. I feel bad for those suburban Canadian kids. It's as though cars have stolen the city from people.

@tchrist I see.

tchrist

@Færd This map shows some boundaries.

Cerberus

> In...the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation of...1944, ...it has been agreed that when flying from one contracting state to another, the kerosene that is already on board aircraft may not be taxed by the state where the aircraft lands, nor by a state through whose airspace the aircraft has flown.
However, there is no tax regulation in the Chicago Convention to refuel the aircraft before departure.[8]:16 This was intended to promote aviation, reconstruction and the global economy after the end of World War II. In addition to the Chicago Convention, there are numerous bilate…

@FaheemMitha

> commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union – with the exception of the Netherlands.

So it's several treaties.

And don't expect much from Dutch kerosene tax: I don't think it amounts to much, if it is levied at all.

Kerosene tax

The kerosene tax (German: Kerosinsteuer, French: taxe kérosène; Dutch: kerosinetaks) is an ecotax on the kerosene-based jet fuel in commercial aviation, which can be levied within and by the European Union. The legal basis for it is the Energy Taxation Directive (2003/96/EG) of 27 October 2003, which proves the member states with the option of introducing a tax on turbine fuel for commercial domestic flights and flights between member states. However, as of 2018, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union – with t...

@FaheemMitha Yup.

tchrist

My home is in the bottom right corner of that larger map there.

Cerberus

This is fairly common in Holland, though bakfietsen are generally expensive, especially electric ones.

But less expensive than cars.

tchrist

21:13

Wheelbarrows you peddle.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Do you mean Holland as in the Netherlands region, or as shorthand for the Netherlands?

Cerberus

The latter.

Færd

@tchrist It appears to me that the part that caught fire were denser, in terms of trees? Could it spread to the outer parts where the trees are relatively sparse? Like, around your home.

Faheem Mitha

I lived in Chicago for 2 years. I managed without a car for one winter, when I first arrived. It was fairly hellish.

Robusto

On my ride today I saw a 4-seat tandem bicycle.

Cerberus

21:14

@Færd Yeah, that is exactly what happened, beginning in the fifties or sixties.

Those care cities have become somewhat hostile to anyone not driving a car.

Faheem Mitha

I'm no fan of cars, but at that time in Chicago there was no reasonable option.

Cerberus

I can imagine.

tchrist

@Færd If it were still hot and dry and windy, yes. Right now it switched to a blizzard, and they have a containment line between the fire and me.

Robusto

Cerberus

@tchrist Indeed. They come with covers, too.

Faheem Mitha

21:15

There is the El, but that has/had fairly restricted reach. And you'd freeze to death waiting for the bus. And carrying groceries off and on a bus was an ordeal.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Yes very much so.

Cerberus

@Robusto A bit unwieldy, but it could be practical?

Robusto

Well, but who wants to ride in back?

That thing would be a bitch to steer.

Cerberus

(Then nobody will notice if you don't pedal...)

@Robusto Exactly...

Robusto

I think that was a family vehicle.

tchrist

21:17

@Cerberus You see those here in my neighborhood sometimes. But they have the kids in back not in front. And this isn't for streets if they can help it, just the paved sidewalks between fields.

They pull the kids in a trailer.

Faheem Mitha

A bike might have been a reasonable option, though probably fairly dangerous, with all the traffic. I can't remember if there were bike lanes or not. I was living in the area called Little Italy, quite close to the city center one year. Near the UIC campus. Not the best part of Chicago.

Robusto

@FaheemMitha No. That's also close to Greektown.

tchrist

An elderly but active lady of 78 who lives next to me finally broke down and got herself an electric bike. Now she zips everywhere. She was worried about falling.

Cerberus

@tchrist In front, you can watch them.

Robusto

And then there were the open street markets on Maxwell Street.

Faheem Mitha

21:18

The first year I lived in dorms a bit further away. Close to Cook County Hospital.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh, I think you would notice if they jumped out from the back. Less to pull.

Faheem Mitha

Not sure what that area was called, but it was also fairly dreary.

Cerberus

@tchrist In a trailer, I'd be afraid of their hitting a bollard or another bike.

tchrist

What's a bollard?

@FaheemMitha Much of inner Chicago is fairly dreary to me.

Faheem Mitha

Supposedly Cook County Hospital is where they used to take the gun victims from the South Side gang battles.

Cerberus

21:21

@tchrist We actually have a relatively large number of elderly people having serious accidents on electric bikes, partly because they go too fast for their reflexes to keep up with.

Faheem Mitha

But I never saw anything of that. I think I cut through the hospital occasionally. It was often oddly empty.

tchrist

@Cerberus A bollard is a post? Where do you have posts?

Robusto

@tchrist A post preventing traffic from entering an area.

Cerberus

@tchrist Uhh everywhere?

tchrist

Seems messy. We don't have those.

Robusto

21:21

Sometimes the bollards come up from the pavement after a bus passes.

Cerberus

You see them?

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Full these days.

Oh you mean for driving on city highways.

Robusto

More Bus Bollards Vs Cars

►

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist I mean the hospital was empty. At least the foyer area. This was many years ago.

Robusto

When cars and bollards collide: Drivers get owned

►

Faheem Mitha

21:23

I don't even know if the hospital still exists.

Cerberus

@tchrist Your average Dutch street.

Robusto

@FaheemMitha It does.

Cerberus

Or what would you call those little poles?

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto Ok.

Cerberus

They're everywhere.

tchrist

21:24

@Cerberus Where's the grass?

Cerberus

?

tchrist

There's no terrace.

Cerberus

This a normal street.

tchrist

You're suppose to have ten feet of grass between cars and sidewalk.

Where you put the trees.

Cerberus

Except that parking spaces for cars are decreased every year until they're mostly gone.

tchrist

21:25

Yeah, that's the kind of place that makes me as nervous as a granny on an airplane during coronavirus.

Cerberus

Well, most streets have trees, I suppose. But also bollards. So you could hit trees and bollards. Or basically any other object, like parked cars or bikes, lamp posts, etc.

Faheem Mitha

As I recall, Cambridge banned cars from the city center some years ago. I don't know if that is common practice in the UK.

tchrist

That's all just weird.

Cerberus

Another average street, then.

Lots of stuff for your trailer to bump into.

Maybe it's easier than it would seem to me?

@FaheemMitha It's happening all over Europe, here as well.

The age of cars is diminishing.

They can all drive off to the West or something.

Like the elves of Middle Earth.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm, looks like that Cambridge thing maybe never happened. I'm not sure.

Cerberus

21:27

Except without pointy ears.

Faheem Mitha

A search doesn't show any definitive results.

Cerberus

It's probably part of the city.

Like everywhere around Europe.

tchrist

That's what a normal neighborhood looks like. See what I mean?

Cerberus

Doesn't look normal to me!

Quite unusual.

tchrist

It's all I've ever known.

Mostly grass and trees, with a sidewalk far from the road and houses between them.

Cerberus

21:29

It's all I've never known.

tchrist

This is why I find cities grotesque and scary and dead.

Cerberus

It will be difficult to adapt your cities and villages to the carless age.

tchrist

Mind you, that is not in the country, either.

It's still mostly alive not dead.

The dead parts of roads and sidewalks are much smaller than the living parts of grass and trees.

Faheem Mitha

Cities aren't necessarily bad as long as they are kept small and compact.

The problem is when they spread out.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Just like any other infection. :)

Faheem Mitha

21:32

@tchrist That's one way of putting it.

Cerberus

@tchrist By the way, only about eight percent of my country is built-up areas; so, if you should decide to move here, I'm sure we can find you a rustic spot!

The view from my parents' garden.

Robusto

If money were no object I would love to have a luxury flat in Manhattan, one in London, and one in Paris.

Cerberus

Sure, why not.

Their street.

Robusto

Manhattan for the energy and the music; London for the theater; and Paris for the food.

Færd

@Cerberus Lovely. Both the city and the countryside.

Faheem Mitha

21:42

@Cerberus That's pretty.

Færd

(except for the fact that it's obnoxiously flat)

Cerberus

Haha yes.

All pastures.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus That's pretty too.

Cerberus

No hills.

@FaheemMitha Just trees!

And asphalt, regrettably.

Faheem Mitha

I like trees.

Cerberus

21:43

Do you not have far more interesting trees in your region?

Færd

It's good that you have a robust cycling culture. In Iran it's forbidden for women to ride bikes.

But some do it anyway in bigger cities.

Cerberus

Oh, I didn't know that.

Good.

Young women, probably?

Færd

I guess the laws vary from city to city? It's very primitive.

Cerberus

I see.

Færd

No, all women. Except for the elderly.

Robusto

21:46

@Færd Seriously? That is just ... idiotic.

Færd

@Robusto Yeah, and that's the beginning of it.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Who me? Not really. And interesting how?

I mean, we have trees here. I've got two directly outside my house. They drop stuff on my terrace. And one inside the compound. I've even got one in my 2nd floor balcony, where it shouldn't really be.

But the area is hardly sylvan.

Cerberus

It doesn't have to be near your house.

I don't live close to my parents either.

Those trees in the screenshot (Google Streetview) are just plain oak trees.

@Færd I meant, the people who cycle anyway: are they mostly young women?

Færd

@Cerberus Umm, I guess they're mostly men, young men, especially in the areas with tighter regulations against women cycling.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Do I remember correctly that you live in/near Bombay?

Færd

21:50

I'm not sure.

Cerberus

I see lots of trees that look a lot more interesting than ours.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus The city of Bombay has quite a lot of trees. They're managed by BMC - the corporation. But the general effect is still grey. Of course, I may be biased.

Færd

@Cerberus The grass is greener on the other side.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus South Bombay, yes. The old part.

Cerberus

@Færd Uhh now I feel lost. We were talking about a law banning women from cycling. So I was wondering whether it was mostly young women who cycled anyway.

@FaheemMitha See?

@Færd I suppose so, and the trees.

Faheem Mitha

21:52

@Cerberus See what?

Cerberus

That you have lots of trees.

And they look nice in the pictures I saw.

Faheem Mitha

Little by way of grass. Or gardens.

@Cerberus yes, but they're just trees.

Little space devoted to park, gardens, or even green open spaces. Like Hyde Park Common, for example.

Cerberus

Still, they look nice.

Færd

@Cerberus Oh no, the reason they want to ban it is not that it's mostly women who cycle. Their problem is that no women, not one woman, can be so indecent as to mount a bike and cycle out in front of everyone to see. So the demographics of the bikers is not really an issue.

It's a hijab thing.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Complete with Speakers' Corner and Kensington Gardens? :)

Faheem Mitha

21:54

@Cerberus Well, trees are trees. They look much the same wherever they are.

@tchrist Pardon?

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Hyde Park.

Faheem Mitha

Unless they are growing in Mordor, perhaps.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure that's true, but I look at trees.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Yes, I got the Hyde Park reference.

tchrist

> "Little space devoted to park, gardens, or even green open spaces. Like Hyde Park Common, for example."

Oh, so you're contrasting with that, saying what you didn't have not what you did have.

Faheem Mitha

21:56

@Færd That's terrible.

@tchrist Right, no green open spaces. As I recall, places like Hyde Park are not particularly scenic. Just a lot of grass. Ditto for Cambridge, as I recall.

I lived in Cambridge as a student, once. Briefly.

But the closest South Bombay has to something like Hyde Park as the maidans. And you probably wouldn't want to walk there. Not very clean. Also no paths, per se. And random people playing cricket and stuff.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha It's ok. For whatever reason, I like the Oxford campus more.

Faheem Mitha

Actually, I've never tried walking in any of the maidans.

tchrist

@Færd It used to be that women weren't taught to read and write either. Or slaves. Of course, this was in the post-Classical ages, where both things were more frequent.

Faheem Mitha

Azad Maidan

Azad Maidan (formerly known as Bombay Gymkhana Maidan) is a triangular-shaped maidan (sports ground) in Mumbai, Maharashtra, India. It is located on 25 acres (10 ha) of land near the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus station. It is a regular venue for inter-school cricket matches. The name Azad means "liberty" in Persian. The ground is known for its cricket pitches, for protest meetings, and for political rallies. The Bombay Gymkhana clubhouse was built in 1875, at the southern end of the maidan. == History == The vast expanses of land of the Oval Maidan, Azad Maidan, Cooperage Ground and Cross Maidan...

This one is fairly close to me.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Doesn't look like a Fräulein to me! :)

Cerberus

22:01

@Færd Yes, of course. But I'm still wondering whether it's mostly young women who violate the rule, as I would expect.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist What?

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Maiden.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd It's really terrible that they don't let women use bikes. What the justification given?

@tchrist Maidan.

tchrist

So /meidn/ not /maidan/. :)

Cerberus

@tchrist Although Roman women had much more freedom than their Greek fellows.

tchrist

22:02

@Cerberus Mostly, yes.

Depends maybe on the class?

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Pronounced may-darn, roughly.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, somewhat.

Faheem Mitha

Though that's still not very close. But I don't know phonetics, sorry.

tchrist

@Cerberus I believe I remember that Athenian women were legal nothings of some sort, while Spartan women had full rights.

@FaheemMitha OED says your maidan is Brit./mʌɪˈdɑːn/,/ˈmʌɪdɑːn/, U.S. /maɪˈdɑn/.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist I'm not sure what that is, but let's assume OED is correct.

Færd

22:06

@Cerberus Now I get the question. Yes, I think so.

tchrist

It's not a word I knew. But the point is that the second syllable, the unstressed one, doesn't have a reduced vowel the way maiden does.

Færd

@tchrist Hmm. Yes. But it also used to be that gay marriage was legal in Iran.

@FaheemMitha That it's indecent.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist The second syllable is a long aaaahhhh.

@Færd That's insane.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha The first syllable of maidan is like the word my, while that of maiden is like the word may.

Færd

Why did I bring this up. There are better things to talk about.

tchrist

22:07

@FaheemMitha Yup. It doesn't reduce to a short or barely heard vowel.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Closer, yes.

Cerberus

@tchrist Uhh I think that's complicated.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Sounds like a reasonable topic of conversation to me.

Cerberus

I do think Spartan women had some rights that Athenian women didn't.

Faheem Mitha

I think the Iranian govt should try hard to be less bonkers. They make even India seem reasonable.

Cerberus

22:08

@Færd OK. So then one would hope that this rule, too, shall vanish as the younger generations grow up.

tchrist

@Færd No doubt yet another one of those countless things that were only legal for the men not the women. :):):)

Cerberus

@Færd Really? When was that?

Was it really marriage?

tchrist

> Women in Classical Athens had no legal personhood and were assumed to be part of the oikos (household) headed by the male kyrios (master). In Athenian society, the legal term of a wife was known as a damar, a word that is derived from the root meaning of "to subdue" or "to tame".

Athenian women had limited right to property and therefore were not considered full citizens, as citizenship and the entitlement to civil and political rights was defined in relation to property and the means to life.

> By contrast, Spartan women enjoyed a status, power, and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world. Although Spartan women were formally excluded from military and political life they enjoyed considerable status as mothers of Spartan warriors. As men engaged in military activity, women took responsibility for running estates. Following protracted warfare in the 4th century BC Spartan women owned approximately between 35% and 40% of all Spartan land and property.

> By the Hellenistic Period, some of the wealthiest Spartans were women.[18] They controlled their own properties, as well as the properties of male relatives, who were away with the army.[16] Spartan women rarely married before the age of 20, and unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore short dresses and went where they pleased.

Sound familiar yet? :/

Women in Greece

The status and characteristics of ancient and modern-day women in Greece evolved from the events that occurred in the history of Greece. According to Michael Scott, in his article "The Rise of Women in Ancient Greece" (History Today), "place of women" and their achievements in ancient Greece was best described by Thucidydes in this quotation: that "The greatest glory [for women] is to be least talked about among men, whether in praise or blame." However, the status of Greek women has undergone charge and more advancement upon the onset of the twentieth century. In 1952, they received their right...

My quotes are from there.

That bit about unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore short dresses and went where they pleased has been almost endlessly repeated all around the world and all up and down recorded time.

Still happens in this country, too, although most people from abroad are unfamiliar with our Amish and Mennonite communities.

The snow is so intense. You come back from a short walk in it caked with snow from stem to stern.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Yeah, but kinda depressing too.

@Cerberus Man if I could get a penny for every time you said that :D

tchrist

@Færd I know, right. :)

Cerberus

22:18

@Færd Yeah, I know.

But I still believe.

This will make @tchrist angry...

The same Canadian I have posted stuff from earlier.

Færd

@tchrist Maybe not. I'm not sure. My point was that everything was laxer back then. Or officially so, at least.

@Cerberus During the reign of the last Shah.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Fewer by far are the societies whose citizens don't mostly all wish their governments would be less bonkers than those who do.

@Færd I know. The monarchy was ugly in many ways, but not like this.

Færd

@tchrist Yes.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'll believe it, though I suspect there is also a tiny bit of cherry-picking going on.

One thing to consider is that Sparta had very, very few citizens. So those 'women' are probably the citizens, the elite.

tchrist

@Færd I have several groups of local friends whose upper middle-class (read: professional) parents fled Iran when that particular revolution happened.

Cerberus

22:21

The rest of Sparta were sub-citizens.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd During the Shah?

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm I am a bit sceptical...

tchrist

@Cerberus Cherry picking women sounds like something that would get you in trouble.

Cerberus

Bleh.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Also the Shah?

tchrist

22:23

@FaheemMitha Yes, they fled once he was deposed by the theocracy. They were from a social class that did not expect to do well in it.

Færd

@tchrist Yes, many did, out of fear for their own lives, or the future of those children.

@FaheemMitha Yes.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist I was asking about social policies. I.e. "The monarchy was ugly in many ways, but not like this."

As I understand it, the Shah was quite Western-looking, and relatively "liberal" in some ways.

Færd

@Cerberus It was occasionally covered in the news that so and so got married. Of course full acceptance takes its course. The point is things had started to move in that direction.

Faheem Mitha

Was ok with women being "professionals", for example.

tchrist

@Cerberus I don't really understand what people mean when they use "suburb".

Faheem Mitha

22:25

Personally, I don't think of Islam as being particularly intolerant. But of course, I live in India.

The Muslims here wouldn't get very far if they tried this kind of thing here.

Færd

@FaheemMitha The Shah was influenced by the West, but was no progressive himself. He believed that woman was inferior to man. But he was better than the mullahs anyway.

tchrist

@Færd Easy hurdle to clear.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Ok.

tchrist

A very low bar.

Færd

Indeed.

Cerberus

22:29

@tchrist A neighbourhood away from the lively areas near the inner city?

Færd

@FaheemMitha Islam is not a thing. Not a well-defined idea. Muslims make its reality with what they believe and do. Many Muslims are intolerant, many are tolerant.

tchrist

@Cerberus So less noisy but still a parking lot? :)

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Yes, but he was also a brutal and corrupt dictator, ish.

@tchrist No excuse for not having cycling infrastructure!

> Car dependence is a choice

Færd

@Cerberus Indeed, but his successors put him to shame on that front as well.

Cerberus

@Færd I suppose so.

But no Fara Diba.

tchrist

22:31

@Cerberus Toronto? What's next, Fairbanks?

Cerberus

@tchrist It can be done anywhere.

It does require the will to do it, and some money.

Many places around the world are moving in that direction.

tchrist

Depends on how many days a year the ground is covered with snow and ice.

Færd

Was Amsterdam crowded by too many cars before bicycles became dominant?

I wonder if developing cities around the world could leapfrog over the car phase and get straight to the cycling phase. It's too late for Tehran, for instance, but maybe other areas that are industrializing could skip high dependence on cars.

tchrist

Fairbanks averages 192 days a year with at least one inch of snow on the ground and 133 days a year with at least ten inches of snow on the ground.

How does "will and money" fix that?

Cerberus

@tchrist True, though light snow is still somewhat manageable.

@Færd Yes, like any other Dutch city, or any other European city.

There was a big revolt against cars and the number of people they killed each year, in the seventies, which sped things along.

tchrist

22:37

@Cerberus We had 154 inches of snow last year, but there were probably no more than 30 or 45 such days that you wouldn't have wanted to bike on city bike paths.

Cerberus

@tchrist Extreme weather makes it harder, to be sure.

tchrist

@Cerberus You just don't get much snow. That's extreme weather from a North American perspective. :)

Cerberus

@Færd I think India and China had lots of cyclists? But I guess cars and mopeds have pushed those out?

@tchrist Well, I'm sure there are plenty of places where you don't get a ton of snow.

tchrist

@Cerberus Miami, Los Angeles.

Cerberus

You could always use your car on those days.

tchrist

22:38

Hawaii.

Cerberus

> Spartiate: The word used to refer to a full citizen of the polis of Sparta, who had gone through the AGOGE and was serving in the Spartan military (also his female relatives). Not every Spartan was a Spartiate. The total number of Spartiates was never more than 9,000 in a population of 225,000+ Lacedaemonians and subjects. By the 4th cent. B.C. the number was down to around 750. The Great Earthquake (ca. 465) and the Great Peloponnesian War (432-404) had a great deal to do with this.

So the number of Spartan women with citizens rights was low.

tchrist

@Cerberus Again, this is only something that affects urbanites, not people who live in the country.

Cerberus

I believe the number of full Spartan citizens was a state secret: if the helots ever found out how few there were, they might revolt.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh that's right. I remember that now.

Very strange.

Færd

@Cerberus I think so. Some people think that there's overally fixed paths for development (first you have to capitulate to cars, and then you have to battle to win the city back from cars).

Cerberus

22:40

@tchrist Well, what percentage of people live in urban areas? 80+ %?

And people in villages who do not need to go far can still cycle to get groceries.

@Færd Yeah, I certainly think it's possible to skip the car stage. But I don't know whether anyone's done it yet.

tchrist

@Cerberus U.S. cities are home to 62.7% of the U.S. population, but comprise just 3.5% of land area.

Cerberus

> In pre-Islamic Iran, a tradition of homosexuality existed, and most were tolerant of sexual activity among men, with the exception of the Zoroastrians.

I have always viewed Zoroastrians as a precursor to Judaism in its modern form (which originated around 500 BC).

Well, not a precursor.

But Judaism was heavily inspired by it.

We have it to thank for the cruel Abrahamic religions, in some sense.

tchrist

It is hard to survive in the desert.

The desert religions all differ dramatically from the jungle and forest religions.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Although I'm not sure how deserty Zoroastrians were.

tchrist

robinhl.com/2011/11/05/…

Maybe it all comes down to resources.

Cerberus

22:51

Hinduism and the old pagan religions weren't exactly friendly and peaceful either, though.

tchrist

> Does this mean that the Celts and Anglo-Saxons and Vikings coming out of the northern forests were non-violent? Hardly! But they were definitely more egalitarian, sexually tolerant and polytheist than the Latin cultures which subsequently dominated them.

You are unlikely to see Scandinavians stoning anyone to death for sexual promiscuity, or for pregnancy outside marriage.

Funny to call those "Latin" cultures, at some level.

The Roman Church they speak of came out of the Middle East, not from Italy.

But we know so little of most those cultures. Many were pre-historic, or nearly so. They didn't write things down that we can read.

To my knowledge, there are no British writings from before Rome took Britain.

The runic alphabets are all post-Republic.

Cerberus

@tchrist The Near East but also Rome.

Færd

@Cerberus And it continued through the Islamic eras. Farsi literature (from courtier poets and from independent ones) is rich in homosexual feelings and descriptions.

Homosexuality was always frowned-upon by many in Iran, but I think our modern state homophobia stems partly from our first cultural encounters with Europe in the last couple centuries.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, right. I always get Near East and Middle East confused.

Cerberus

@Færd Yeah, I would say it fluctuated, depending on place and time.

Just as in Christian places.

Or pagan ones.

Færd

22:58

yeah

Cerberus

But I do think the most extreme anti-gay actions and climates existed in Abrahamic societies.

Færd

Maybe. I don't know enough about the rest of the world to make a comparison, alas.

tchrist

"Pagan" is a funny way to speak of polytheism.

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