English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Thanks.

I despair of ever seeing good typography and layout here. I know I should explain to them why you want different properties in a display font from what you want in a body font, from what you want in a caption font. But my resolve falters when I realize they simply have no idea what I'm talking about. "Let's just paint the ceiling Arial."

Old punch-line, recast.

I just cannot believe that we're still stuck with the "system fonts" of 25 years ago here.

practicaltypography.com/system-fonts.html

> My aversion to Comic Sans—king of the goofy fonts—probably comes as no surprise. But why Arial? Arial was created as a Helvetica substitute. To many, they’re indistinguishable.

> But to typographers, Arial contains none of the consistency and balance that makes Helvetica successful. For instance, the ends of the lowercase a, c, e, g, s, and t in Helvetica are exactly horizontal. In Arial, those ends are sloped arbitrarily. Reading Arial is like trying to have dinner on a tippy restaurant table.

They say they have "designers".

> As a system font, Arial has achieved ubiquity akin to times new roman. And like Times New Roman, Arial is permanently associated with the work of people who will never care about typography.

@Cerberus They don't have anybody who knows anything about setting type.

Then I wonder why Eric (was that his name?) said they have designers working on the theme...

Because if that had, they would never have tried to set the word "meta" in Times New Roman next to the Big Caslon for "English Language & Language" in the logo on our meta. That's simply obscene disregard.

@Cerberus I didn't contradict you; we said two different things.

1:59 AM

They how can he say they have designers?

Ah, that.

These are not typographers. They're webby people. They don't understand things like readability.

Remember, I asked for their designers to talk to the community directly, but he seemed to refuse.

So they're not real designers like Jin?

Just because you can "design" a bunch of <div>s in CSS does not make you sensitive to typography.

@Cerberus Not that I can tell.

I saw Jin talked about the design he/she was creating for our site quite a bit, in this very room in 2010.

Or maybe 2011.

I saw Jin talked about the design he/she was creating for our site quite a bit, in this very room in 2010.

I think we hurt people's feeling. I wish we had not.

2:01 AM

@tchrist Then they should hire real designers.

What ever happened to Jin anyway?

@Cerberus They aren't around anymore.

SEE ALSO on x-heights 1, 2, 3. On display/body/caption 4, 5, 6, 7. — tchrist Oct 3 at 14:36

Then they should find new professionals.

Or even ask the community.

They have an entire website dedicated to graphic design.

They could pay some of them to make new themes.

They're using the same line spacing of 19.5px no matter whether they're setting Arial at 15 points or Georgia at 15 points. That is insane: it produces paragraphs with completely different "colors". The x-heights are not the same in those two faces.

Colours?

Yes. Color.

2:04 AM

Oh, quotation marks.

Flavours.

It means the proportion of black and white in the space; how much "ink" you use.

Ah.

I think Eric quoted from your favourite book...

So I wonder what's going on there.

Jon, not Eric.

Jon Ericson.

Something like Bringhurst?

He did.

2:06 AM

Oh, that was it.

Well, like father, like son, eh?

From blog.prototypr.io/…

You cannot just swap around fonts of different x-heights at the same size without compensating. It screws up the look of the paragraph.

The right one looks nicer.

Exactly. What you see up there is what they're doing to us. They've chosen a font size and line spacing for Arial. When they use Georgia at the same font size and line spacing, they create problems. They have to adjust.

So what's the solution?

Send them a copy of Bringhurt?

I think you once suggested sending me one.

I've threatened, yes.

Well, them I've threatened; you I've offered.

2:09 AM

Heh.

> For experimentation’ sake, let’s now readjust Adelle on the left to match Baskerville’s x-height. This means decreasing its point size from 22 to 18px, and giving it a smaller line height to match its now smaller type size. And now let’s compare them again side by side:

I'm afraid it's too high above my level of understanding typography, so I probably wouldn't understand half of it.

You have to look at the paragraph overall to see whether it looks ok. They have no idea how to do that, or why.

That does look better.

Nobody who knows spit about setting type would ever let paragraphs grow to 110 characters in length the way Stack Exchange does.

2:10 AM

Hmm.

It's too long to read. They don't care about such things.

I wonder why hired real designers in the past but not now.

I often have my window set to the full monitor width of 1920.

And I sit about two feet from it.

I never have a problem on a professionally designed site. But I do here.

I usually have my screen vertical, but elsewhen I have it set like you have.

Real magazines and newspapers of quality do a good job here.

2:14 AM

At 24 inches diagonal.

Yes.

The Atlantic, the New Yorker, New York Magazine, the New York Times.

Mother Jones. The Nation. Harper's Magazine.

The Guardian Weekly.

parool.nl/binnenland/…

And yes, by listing the publications I've just laid out my politics for all the world to cast aspersions. Fuck it, I don't care: you can read all of those. They do a good job.

How do you feel about this site?

Looks good.

2:17 AM

OK.

I can't get too deep into it because of the paywall, but what I see seems actually designed for readability.

They're using an actual display font for the headers, for example.

No need, I just wanted a quick impression.

I would never pretend to be able to design a site.

"Quarto A" whatever that is, to be exact.

That is, I have picked a theme for some sites and adjusted it a little bit, but knowing that it was totally amateurish.

But it didn't matter to anyone and there was no budget.

Their body font is Georgia at 21.375 for me with a wide screen. Not the skimpy 15 px that ELU has.

2:21 AM

Alas.

They have a distinct caption font.

So I understand SE want to unify themes.

But why didn't they hire real designers to do that? Within the required constraints, surely they could have made it a lot nicer?

Lato-light, whatever that is.

@Cerberus I'm pretty sure they don't have typographers, just CSS monkeys.

I wonder why not.

At least, I've seen no evidence.

2:22 AM

Perhaps 'we', that is, the people on ELU, could create CSS of our own.

So we'd be independent from SE's CSS.

And your site knows that they shouldn't use as heavy a font weight for their larger displays as they do for captions.

Right.

(For the record, it isn't my site but the site of a major newspaper.)

To just make everything Arial is insane. At display sizes you want things lighter and less letter spaced than at body sizes, at caption sizes you want them heavier and more letter spaced.

@Cerberus Oh yes, I know.

It's like Rob said about never hearing of anybody ever deliberately using Arial for a display font. Of course not.

Trying to use the same rules for all three the way they are doing shows they don't understand or they don't care.

Ugh.

And then swapping in Georgia for Arial without changing some of the metrics just adds insult to injury. The paragraph fill is different, and it looks squished together because of the x-height not being compensated for.

It's not my job to teach them what good typography is, but apparently it's also not their job to provide a well-designed site from the perspective of good typesetting. That's not the mission here. And it shows.

Then they're the problem of how when you use Georgia primary and Times New Roman secondary, those have different x-heights and weights and flourishes, so your IPA and your polytonic Greek looks like a ransom note.

They didn't even compensate for the different aspect ratios of those two faces.

2:30 AM

Maybe they'll listen eventually.

> ɪɾ̃ɚˈnæʃɨnəɫ fəˈnɛɾək ˈæɫfəbɪt
['tʰre:ɾər], [ˈtʰɹeɪɾɚ], /t͡ʃ/, [t͡ʂɻʷeɪd]

That shows you what Georgia lacks for those glyphs.

So those ones get swapped in with Times New Roman, which has a different x-height and weight and approach to serif thickness, so looks mismatched and confusing.

Ancient Greek, heck Koine, has the same problem.

> Βούλομαι οὖν προσεύχεσθαι τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐν παντὶ τόπῳ ἐπαίροντας ὁσίους χεῖρας χωρὶς ὀργῆς καὶ διαλογισμοῦ

So but that isn't the case now, is it?

That Greek looks wrong in chat font.

@Cerberus That is still the case, yes.

There, that shows you the "holes" in Georgia for that line of Greek.

Hmm I usually only notice such things with Greek.

Yes, I am aware of that problem, it's basically most accented letters.

Even pure Times New Roman would work, rather than mixing. But Palatino Linotype would better. So would many others.

That's all Palatino Linotype.

And that's all Times New Roman.

Going all Times New Roman is fine for IPA or for Greek.

But we have no ability to specify <ipa>....<ipa> or <greek>...</greek> so we get Georgia + Times New Roman ransom notes.

2:37 AM

I remember needing a different font.

yeah

I use Charis SIL now, I think.

For something, but I don't remember where.

@Cerberus That's well thought-of.

I think in Golden Dictionary, which has the OED and etymological dictionaries, so it needs lots of special characters.

Right.

I remember experimenting with a few fonts.

2:38 AM

There was also one with "2000" in its name, or something, but that wasn't good enough.

@tchrist That looks fine.

A bit like the font that the Loeb editions use.

That one was designed by a Greek guy, and its καὶ ligature surprises those not used to reading more Greek texts.

Ah, I hadn't even noticed.

The Loeb doesn't have that.

Funny that this ligature should still be in use in Greece.

There are so many nice Greek that we’ll never see here.

I wonder what the people on the Japanese sites do. Or Chinese.

shudders

2:44 AM

Hmm.

That would be interesting...

That one is always slanted.

Even more ligatures!

True. :)

It's a more cursive hand to my eye.

But most Greeks are.

Note how the big Pi is "falling over to the right".

But alas, we get only ransom-note Greek: all those Omega boxes get swapped out for Times New Roman, but the rest is left in Georgia.

2:49 AM

Alas.

Yesterday it was sunny and 67 degrees here. This morning I awoke to 8 inches of new-fallen snow, still falling. It's going down to 15 tonight, and that's in old money.

Which is awfully cold for this early in autumn.

Randy seemed to delight in bounding through snow that came well up to his chest and beyond. Silly kitty.

Impressive.

It was like 22 here.

Silly kitty having fun.

@Cerberus That's so last-week. :/

I put that in centigrade for you.

You cannot even see how far down the right margin is. So cold.

How fickle!

We have only two seasons: summer and winter.

It's like a yoyo that eventually ran out of string and landed flat on the cold, cold ground.

Today I of course cooked a kettle of soup.

3:02 AM

Good.

In a dutch oven, no less. I thought of you then. :)

Made of cast iron, not aluminum.

> A braadpan is mainly used for frying meat only, but it can also be used for making traditional stews such as hachée. Cast-iron models exist, but are used less frequently. Currently, Combekk makes the only true Dutch Oven that is actually made in the Netherlands.

Hm.

Mine is one of these from Le Crueset, in the so-called Marseille color: lecreuset.com/round-wide-dutch-oven I got it a very, very long time ago, back before it ran just south of $400 the way it appears to now. Wow.

Word to the wise: make sure to buy expensive things several decades ago only.

Jasper Loy

@tchrist I just read that page. Oh dear! I have been using Times New Roman, Arial, and Courier New my whole life, and nothing else, and these are meant to be the worst fonts!

@JasperLoy There's a lot to read there, eh?

3:56 AM

@tchrist Creuset is also the most popular brand for those cast-iron pans here.

I have a set

My grandmother didn't like the idea that the enamel might with age become damaged, having seen that once. But I have not.

This will have been 20 or 30 years ago.

Perhaps I in that much more time will have the same advice. I don't know.

@tchrist Your discussion made me realize that I didn't really know what my Deaf uncle (a typesetter for The Washington Post) actually did for a living. (My Deaf father was a printer; deaf people often worked in very loud workplaces years ago). Anyhow, I found this article re: typsetting (for book publishing)...I think it's pretty much a dead craft...and its sister, typography, is a dying art...except in India? gettingpublished.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/what-is-typesetting

No, that is an insane idea. You may be confusing it with the whole hot lead affair though.

Anyway, that may explain the excess of...webby people.

Letterpress still exists, with a shop or two in every large town. But it is rare, and used only for very high quality stuff like wedding invitations.

However, that is only about metal. Typography in the digital age is still just as important as ever. How could it be otherwise?

Making fine books and other textual publications like magazines and newspapers is still the same as it has ever been. You know quality when you see it. Go read some of those magazines I mentioned.

Electronically.

They pay people to do a good job. And it shows.

4:26 AM

@KannE After reading through a bunch of that, it's pretty realistic.

I've been through the process described there many times. There really is a huge amount of work to do to get a book published. People who haven't been through the slog have no idea.

There's also a world of difference between using a word processor and using actual publishing software. He mentions that.

@tchrist I bake apple cobbler and enchiladas in Le Creuset cookware. When people ask me why theirs turned out differently, I tell them--it's the cookware! But they never believe me; it does make a difference.

Of course it does. Quality shows through.

> Part of why this book works is that it’s not polluted with nagging and wheedling. I specifically wanted it to be a calm oasis on the noisy web—a chance to rediscover something we like about printed books, which is the immersion and focus that can be created by nothing but text and typography. That part is not incidental; it’s intrinsic.

practicaltypography.com/effluents-influence-affluence.html

A calm oasis is so welcome in today's awful web that once you're there, you're shocked at how much you've longed for that without even realizing it.

4:41 AM

French people leave their Le Creuset in their wills, not in their cupboards for some estate sell...I don't know what else it takes for people to believe. I would let them borrow mine to prove it, but I've already lost two dishes (and two friends) that way; I really miss those dishes.

No, those I don't lend out. Folks can use them at my place if they really want to.

It's like how sets of fine china are left in wills.

Cast iron cooks differently than aluminum or brass.

Or stainless steel.

5:14 AM

@tchrist Oh, I've never realized that's what it was before...you know, like thumbing through a book, just looking at the print and thinking--I can't take this on vacation with me--it's unsettling somehow. To this day, I've read all of my son's books except one--a 50-cent copy of The Time Machine we bought at Walmart many years ago. I tried once and I was like--I can't read this--did someone type a book on recycled hand towels...in Taco Bell?

5:35 AM

@tchrist My husband was a scoutmaster for many years. He loves cooking in cast iron, and he's very good at it. He used to bake them cakes out there! They were really roughing it...haha. Oh, and baking pizzas in tinfoil boxes during the day--brutal. How did they survive?

6:01 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in title, pattern-matching website in title, potentially bad keyword in title (395): ketodiettrial.com/keto-ultra/ by shytinnbdrfe on english.SE

8:19 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer (60): Word for lights on police cars, etc by Usman Aqeel on english.SE

CowperKettle

9:10 AM

> Pot marigolds are strewn with snow
Beside my frontside porch.
When frozen clouds are running low,
And sun is dimmed to muffled glow,
This orange floweret seems, you know,
The summer’s steadfast torch.

(15 October 2018)

Q: Word for the sound of keyboard typing

9:53 AM

0

Is there any word or phrase denoting the sound of typing on the keyboard? I made my research, through which I found two words from Quora — a Q&A site; those two words are: "clicking" and "tac tac." But at there, a user, namely Victoria A. Mouritzen adviced against accepting these two words, as s...

single-word-requests phrase-requests sounds

Q: What's the single word for "if not for intervening circumstances"

10:56 AM

0

The sentence I'm trying to make is, She would have done [this] without interceding circumstances; or, [this] is what she would have done if not for intervening circumstances. The circumstances were forced on her, and outside her control. What I'm using now ("If not for external/intervening...

single-word-requests

My Little Pony - What is Love 10 Hours

11:36 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I thought of you while working today

►

nchk nchk nchk

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +6 more (887): topsupplementlist.com/dermavix-denmark/ by user320217 on english.SE

11:53 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +5 more (789): ketodiettrial.com/keto-advanced-australia/ by bedant bhatti on english.SE

12:17 PM

@KitZ.Fox heheh

Q: Term used for a feeling or dream of events happening in the short or near term.

12:31 PM

0

They say Nostradamus could see the future. While not being so bold but what is the term used to describe when some people at times are able to dream or know what is going to happening in the short-term/near future and that actually happens.

single-word-requests word-usage vocabulary

Jasper Loy

12:45 PM

@KitZ.Fox Long time no see.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Long time no see.

@JasperLoy Yeah, I guess a few weeks? You were here in the chat just before I left for Amsterdam.

How've you been?

CowperKettle

Word of the day: cement accelerator

@JasperLoy I'm glad you're back!

hugs

1:12 PM

@JasperLoy Hi!

1:25 PM

So I met up with @Cerberus in Amsterdam. Boy was I surprised.

Turns out he's been pretty deceitful this whole time

He only has one head

that's effing shocking!

I know, right?

I have this dread that I will meet you someday and I'll step on you and it will hurt.

Just wear shoes!

It's not comfortable to wear shoes!

1:40 PM

Hm. Okay I might have to re-build myself into a larger model

like giant ant-man

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wasn't wearing my other heads that day.

And you didn't have square feet at all.

They're square! It's my shoes that aren't square

Oh, okay, then.

In the real world, having square feet only slightly larger than your legs makes it hard to stand on the ground when there are no lego studs to hold you in place. Hence I wear shoes.

I understand.

We all make do with what life has given us.

1:54 PM

makes random pew pew noises

2:38 PM

I had a discussion about whether "I am shook" is grammatical yesterday.

I am groot

The person argued that you can't use a past participle adjective with a present continuous sentence. I said "I am undone".

I thought I was quite hilarious.

2:54 PM

@KitZ.Fox you are woke

3:16 PM

Q: Verb for giving a name to a baby, which is already the name other

3:42 PM

0

Is there any verb which fits the definition of giving the name to a baby, which is already the name of others. Actually, I had that word few days ago, but today, I forgot that. Due to this, I tried my best to search it on Google, but I couldn't find that verb. I am not after the words, like epon...

single-word-requests verbs

3:59 PM

Howdy

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer (60): Very very confused! which verbs can be used in simple present tense for scheduled future events? by Michael Carter on english.SE

ladenedge

Not sure you'll see this, @Chappo, but I wanted to extend my thanks for the generous way you requested references in a newcomer's answer. It was explanatory but inviting and I wish we could all be so kind on SE. Cheers! english.stackexchange.com/a/468256/617

4

Q: What would you call a person pejoratively who enjoys perks of a job post but responsibility of a lower rung assistant

0

What would you call a person pejoratively who is on a professional privileged position such as Engineer, geologist, senior engineer etc (earning what the post demands) but chooses to do a job of a say a postman or peon or secretary or a clerk and get away with it. In other word he is doing wor...

single-word-requests phrases expressions idioms pejorative-language

Q: Word for something that has a legal and illegal use

5:01 PM

0

Certain tools and substances (some fertilizers, nuclear technology, among others) can have both a legal peaceful application, or an illegal destructive use. What'st the word for describing these type of ambiguous stuff? This might get a better answer in law.SE, but in english.SE it has a chance ...

single-word-requests

5:42 PM

@ladenedge Unfortunately, the way references work in chat, @Chappo won't get pinged by you (or me), because '@' only references people who have recently been in that exact chat room.(I don't know for sure how long 'recently' is; a day? a week?). You may want to post that chat comment directly as an edit comment referring to his.

6:20 PM

@Chappo

"Aggresive Panda Reprodution". I don't think that means quite what you think it means.

ladenedge

6:39 PM

@Mitch Oh, it has to be recent as well? Ouch. Thanks for the suggestion -- I didn't want to muddy things up with another comment. I'll just rub my temple and will her to join chat in the next week and search for "Chappo"... :/

I've already pinged Chappo a few lines up -- and put your nice message on the starboard also @ladenedge

gparyani

7:00 PM

@MetaEd Hello from Interpersonal Skills! I noticed you migrated this question to our site. Please note that we do not accept subjective questions on our site; questions must ask for help about a specific interpersonal skill. I noticed it was closed as primarily opinion-based on this site before you reopened and migrated it; it's now gathering close votes for the same reason there.

@gparyani I apologize. I went by the recommendation of a high rep user Dan Bron who was sure it would be good for y'all. Next time I'll check in TL first.

gparyani

@MetaEd The official guidance from SE is to not ping mods on the destination site before migrating questions; instead, you should get a feel for how our site works and make the decision on your own.

@gparyani Gotcha. Wilco

Hello.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 One or two steps farther and you'd've been in Iran, having more surprises.

BTW I now can officially invite people to my own apartment.

Well, leased, but still. IT'S MY OWN EFFING APARTMENT.

I can't say flat tho, because a step breaks the floor joining the living room and the kitchen. So it's not flat.

Oh god I have my own kitchen too now. I have to start learning to cook.

7:46 PM

@Færd Nice. You're adulting

Are you kidding me?

haha..it's the word they're starting to use for it nowadays

Right. But It doesn't work for me at 30 anyways.

Having to cook for oneself is considered a sign of becoming an adult.

Ah I thought you meant moving into your own house is.

7:49 PM

Nah, I was referring to the line about cooking

Yes you replied to that. Okay.

But also moving into one's own place is also another step (probably highly correlated with the cooking thing)

I can already cook .. stuff.

28 mins ago, by Færd

Oh god I have my own kitchen too now. I have to start learning to cook.

I'm going to be stealing a lot of food from my mother for a while.

RegDwigнt

7:52 PM

Jesus Christ.

I open the site and I see not one but three a vs. an questions.

Some of them not even with a single close vote, but instead with 3 pages worth of answers and comments.

May I kindly remind everyone of this:

Dec 30 '11 at 12:56, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Dear next person who answers a question about a vs. an: you are awesome and I love you, but your answer will be deleted without further notice.

That is seven years ago, guys. Starred ten times, too. This was our credo, and this was our motto.

What happened.

I am calling everyone to order. Kthxbai.

@RegDwigнt Assuming that;s a question, people who used to frequent the site and vote to close had an institutional memory about the older questions. Now they don't. A vs an is a new question to all the new people.

@Færd Alsoslang definition of adulting