English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

00:23

@Cerberus The pay wage ratio is not enough data to make the determination that the U.S.A's workers are underpaid. The differential is not caused by workers in the U.S.A. having a comparatively low standard of living, but instead because the C.E.Os. are just that much richer on average. 14 of the 20 richest people in the whole world live in the U.S.A.

Also, more importantly The U.S.A's poorest 10% have a comparatively good standard of living even among the nations listed there.

Cerberus

00:40

@Tonepoet Forbes has a paywall.

How do they measure "standard of living"?

Does it include all medical costs and insurances, as in most rich countries?

Tonepoet

They do? I can read the articles just fine and I don't have a subscription...

Cerberus

And all education, from primary school to university?

Etc. etc.

But anyway, I wasn't trying to make a point.

Just found the graph rather fascinating.

Mitch

US still 'wins' on Gini coefficient

Tonepoet

The quality of living uses data from three different sources. The Better Life Index factors in housing, income, jobs, community, education, environment, civic engagement, health, life satisfaction, safety and work/life balance.

The E.P.I's. 2004 State of Working America Report from 2004 is purely economic.

There's also this.

Lawrence

@Færd Fancy isn't a synonym for felt like in that context because "like" is used to link "felt" (not "I", the speaker) with the sensation described, whereas "felt like" in the sense of fancy has an explicit or implicit "having" (or similar term, perhaps) after it, and links someone with something they'd like to (for example) consume. E.g. "I felt like (having) an ice cream."

Mitch

00:47

List of countries by income equality

This is a list of countries or dependencies by income inequality metrics, including Gini coefficients. The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 1, where 0 corresponds with perfect equality (where everyone has the same income) and 1 corresponds with perfect inequality (where one person has all the income—and everyone else has zero income). Income distribution can vary greatly from wealth distribution in a country (see List of countries by distribution of wealth). Income from black market economic activity is not included and is the subject of current economic research. == UN and CIA ...

Cerberus

@Tonepoet How can the poor have a "better life" if they cannot go to the doctor? Or go to a good school?

Mitch

so the US isn't the worst there so I was wrong.

Cerberus

Oh, it is not the worst by far, globally.

Mitch

I don't get how 'better-life' is figured.

yes, the exec salary ratio is a bizarre development.

as a market I'd say to sound like I know something that is looks like a bubble in that very small market.

(in the US)

Cerberus

You're a market?

That explains the square and the shapes.

Mitch

00:51

@Lawrence one could replace one with the other in some very few circumstances and have the results imply mostly the same thing (in British English) but that doesn't make them synonyms really.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus They can, is part of the point I think. There's a big difference between having wealth equity where everybody is poor, and having wealth inequity where nearly nobody is poor but some people are incredibly wealthy.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha...you're using my lack of coherence to twist my words into a meaning they may very well not have!

Cerberus

@Tonepoet But they can't?

Mitch

Understand what I mean, not what I say!!

Cerberus

@Mitch It is a pleasure!

Tonepoet

00:53

Sustainability is another issue though. I don't know how to figure that.

Mitch

(said the sysadmin to the somputer after 'rm -r /'

@Tonepoet To Cerb's point, comparing all those countries based on anecdotal evidence of what poor is like in each country, the bars don't always seem to make sense (in both Cerb's 'better-life' graph, and my Guni coeff graph

@Cerberus Chin chin!!

@Tonepoet Sustainawhatility?

Where does that come in?

(not that it's not important)

Tonepoet

I think you already mentioned a "bubble" Mitch.

Mitch

but GDP growth rate would be something to look at first (and sustainability a derived issue)

Lawrence

@Mitch Point taken. Still, it would change the tone, at least. The original context was "What sort of a candy was that? I felt like I was chewing chalk." This sounds like something unpleasant. Changing to "I fancied I was chewing chalk." would make it sound like something they would have liked to do, not something they actually did, but which they didn't like.

Mitch

@Tonepoet Oh. I see

Lawrence

00:57

TTFN

Mitch

@Lawrence Oh. haha. I was speaking out of context.

As usual

@Lawrence 'I fancied I was chewing chalk' sounds like something a BrE speaker might say, but I don't know.

Cerberus

Mitch

Maybe Dick van Dyke?

Who is obviously of Dutch heritage.

so you never know about them.

Cerberus

Most probably!

Mitch

@Cerberus Yes, US is exceptional for a rich country

Cerberus

01:00

Yup.

Mitch

We win again!!

Cerberus

But things are slowly improving, it seems.

Do we?

Mitch

Yes. We.

Cerberus

Good, good.

Mitch

I feel bad for Japan.

Cerberus

01:01

I look forward to it.

How so?

Mitch

They seem to be doing so well.

Cerberus

Because the Emperor is forbidden by the constitution to say that he will abdicate (he's 80+)?

Mitch

they have higher-than-1st world problems

Cerberus

Indeed.

Mitch

Oh please, the emperor is irrelevant

Cerberus

01:01

Not to Japan!

He is expected to announce soon that he will eventually abdicate.

Mitch

ok as relevant as taylor swift in the US

Cerberus

I think it was this week.

I think the Emperor is quite a bit more interesting.

Than a random actress.

Mitch

as relevant as Queen Margarita (sp?)?

What is the queen of the Netherlands?

Cerberus

We now have a king, alas.

I think Scandinavia has or had a queen named such.

Denmark, I think.

Mitch

@Cerberus sure, much more interesting and culturally important. But the government won't collapse if royalty dismantled.

Cerberus

01:04

Indeed not.

But it would be quite a big crisis.

Bigger than in any Western country, I believe.

Mitch

@Cerberus alas. How can you expect anyone to keep all that straight... a president, a prime minister, and a monarch?

studies for the next season of Jeopardy!

Cerberus

I think being straight is in his nature.

Or we'd have heard rumours of lovers.

Mitch

Good posture

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Ah well there's a pretty good explanation for that. The U.S.A's. poor are some of the fattest worldwide according to the American Diabetics Association. The food they consider necessary might not really be so, and more importantly, obesity is directly linked to health condition.

Cerberus

I don't think that explains why they don't have access to the necessary medical care.

Mitch

01:05

@Tonepoet On that score, Mexico has supposedly surpassed the US. But we're still in second.

Cerberus

But there is no need to discuss this now.

Tonepoet

Comparatively, in Japan they have a fat tax.

Cerberus

I'm sobering up.

Mitch

And UK and Germany are still in the race

Cerberus

You make me think of Abfab.

Not because of your shape.

Mitch

01:06

@Tonepoet In the US they charge more on airplanes for bigger seats.

Cerberus

But England and fat.

Mitch

haha, I don't actually know that.

Tonepoet

Wrong source.

Cerberus

Oh, you don't?

How saddening!

Mitch

@Cerberus Are they fat on Absolutely Fabulous?

Cerberus

01:07

Eddie is always fat!

Mitch

It's 2016 and the internet stuff bits into my head through my light and hearing holes, but I don't think I've ever actually seen an episode of Abfab.

Cerberus

> Mom, where are the painkillers? The box is empty.
> — Oh, I'm dieting, sweetie. I was hungry, and there was nothing with fewer calories in the house.

Mitch

Will by actively not attending the movie.

unless they dub it in English.

Real English

Cerberus

I thought the film would be very bad.

Mitch

@Cerberus hahahah... sobs quietly in corner

Cerberus

01:09

But the first half was actually hilarious. The second half, not so much.

Abfab is inconsistent in its brilliance.

Not every episode is good, nor is all of any episode good.

Mitch

@Cerberus it's an investment, a start-up company, but they have insurance in case it doesn't make the profit they hope for.

Cerberus

But the good parts, oh, dahling!

Mitch

:D

the drinking!

Cerberus

The film was made by a small company?

Mitch

oh I don't know.

Cerberus

01:10

I think its budget was fairly high!

Mitch

it just seems like every movie coming out is either a sequel or some kind of franchise

Cerberus

You're probably right.

Mitch

like they're trying to commodify these stories.

Cerberus

So I expected it to suck.

Mitch

producing them on an asembly line.

so not funny

Cerberus

01:11

But the first half was incredibly tight with funny moments.

Mitch

oh so you saw the movie?

Tonepoet

@Mitch That's exactly what they're doing...

Cerberus

I did indeed, although it wasn't my idea.

If you like the programme, however, I can recommend the film.

Mitch

like by 2025, all movies wil be either an Avengers story or a Jason Bourne sequel

and just one long fight scene. Avengers will have more quick cuts to jokes.

Cerberus

I wouldn't know what those are, but, yeah, most films are no doubt semi-copies.

Ugh, fight scenes are so boring!

Tonepoet

01:13

@MItch Don't forget Explosions 5 Billion by Micheal Bay. =P

Mitch

@Cerberus I want to see a movie made out of 'The great British Bake-off'

Cerberus

Hah.

Mitch

no ovens. Just knives

Cerberus

That sounds...horrible?

Knives, better.

Mitch

@Tonepoet hahaha...his movies make my eyes hurt.

and strangely boring. seeing huge skyscrapers being destroyed or falling over like dominos. I've seen that a hundred times.

Cerberus

01:14

What I also find incredibly boring is (long) pursuit scenes.

Oh, well.

Meanwhile, there is this song I'm trying to find.

Tonepoet

I can't sympathize because I watch girly shows from Japan. =P

Cerberus

Haha, girly shows?

Tonepoet

Do me a favor Cerberus and watch the first four episodes of Puella Magi Madoka Magica if you can.

Mitch

@Cerberus "Scownes? Scownes? Eat my effing scahns you maggot!!" stabby movements, spurting blood, catch that in a bowl for the most exquisite 'black' pudding

Tonepoet

It has Latin in the title.

Cerberus

01:17

@Tonepoet I'm interested to know what kind of genre you like, but I'm really not a "watcher", it's rather a large time commitment.

@Tonepoet Haha that is a plus indeed.

Mitch

@Cerberus I know! Most normal everyday Olympians would be out of breath after the first 30 seconds.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm don't you mean sconz?

Mitch

@Cerberus Hello Kitty shows. The kitty in Hello Kitty is a girl I think.

@Tonepoet bonus points

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes. Even in cars.

Mitch

@Cerberus I meant it and said it, in my own idiosyncratic way

Cerberus

01:19

But...you know what the traditional pronunciation is...

Mitch

scahns

Cerberus

I don't think anybody at all says that?

Mitch

for an american, writing it 'scons' could come out like 'scowns'

Cerberus

Many people pronounce it like scowns

Mitch

@Cerberus to your point, yes, people in the US just say 'muffin'

extra dry

Cerberus

01:20

Hah.

Sounds identical to me.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus I'd suggest reading Shoulder-a-Coffin Kuro, Cerberus but volume 2 is difficult to acquire now ...

Cerberus

Hah.

I still need to finish the Odyssey.

My lists are long.

And the days are shortening.

Mitch

@Cerberus The sun at noon is the sun declining. The creature born is the creature dying.

sobs quietly some more

Cerberus

So it is.

But! In six months, the days will lengthen once again.

Mitch

The temperature inertia is weird. it gets hotter after the solstice.

Tonepoet

01:26

So basically, I should ask you again after Winter Solstice? =P

Cerberus

After my solstice, probably!

The waters will become warmer and warmer as long as they receive lots of light and they are still relatively cool.

I think that's the largest factor.

Mitch

@Tonepoet right.

Tonepoet

Hmm...

Mitch

basically the cause of global warming.

if only they'd alternate

@Cerberus wait...

Cerberus

No, you wait.

Mitch

01:31

would I be giving everything away if I told you that Ulysses and Penelope...

@Cerberus waiting.

still waiting

Cerberus

Shhh.

I have of course read it in Dutch, so the story is not exactly new.

Mitch

If anybody here has read the Odyssey it would have been you. Now that you've admitted otherwise, what hope we can have for the rest of the world?

In all languages

Tonepoet

@Cerberus I'll wait, and ask you again in March. =P

Mitch

@Cerberus I saw the movie. Cartoon really.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think you have read it too, or at least big parts of it.

@Tonepoet I look forward to your asking!

Mitch

01:38

Very accurate color in the wine-red seas

Cerberus

Exactly.

Mitch

I find verse very hard to read.

In English

It's like all of a sudden I'm illiterate.

Cerberus

I know the feeling.

But there are many prosaic versions.

Mitch

with pictures

Cerberus

Sure, why not?

We have pictures from Antiquity.

ktm5124

01:52

@Færd So actually, when I click on that link, it says that someone can get tongue-tied when they're shy or embarrassed. But what about when they're anxious or distracted? Or, in a completely different situation, when they're hung over and words just aren't coming out right?

Tonepoet

Oh, this website is possibly the first time I've seen the word classic used properly.

Mitch

@Tonepoet Classic!

You had to have expected that.

ktm5124

@Mitch oh, we're taking about The Odyssey?

Tonepoet

I should've at least.

ktm5124

I love The Odyssey

Do you think Ulysses is a good person?

Mitch

01:58

He puts his crew at unnecessary risk

Cerberus

He forces people to fight in a war.

I'm not sure whether he's good or bad.

Mitch

I don't think he's a bad man.

He's just a guy trying to get back home.

@ktm5124 Where does that question come from?

What made you think of it?

ktm5124

02:23

Which question?

I think he's done a lot of bad things. For example, the myth of Ulysses and Ajax arguing over Achilles' armor

sumelic

@Cerberus Well, from what I remember Odysseus was forced into it himself. He had an obligation to Menelaus as one of Helen's former suitors, but he was reluctant to fight and pretended to be crazy by tilling the beach. He had to be tricked into revealing his sanity by placing his son on the ground in front of him. Then again, he got himself into the mess since Wikipedia says he was the one who originally proposed binding the suitors with an oath.

Cerberus

> Odysseus, Telamonian Ajax, and Achilles' tutor Phoenix went to retrieve Achilles. Achilles' mother disguised him as a woman so that he would not have to go to war, but, according to one story, they blew a horn, and Achilles revealed himself by seizing a spear to fight intruders, rather than fleeing.[25]
According to another story, they disguised themselves as merchants bearing trinkets and weaponry, and Achilles was marked out from the other women for admiring weaponry instead of clothes and jewelry.[50]

sumelic

I should have just said "Ulysses" in my previous comment. I thought it would be nice to use the Greek name, but the problem with "Odysseus" is that I'm not sure how to say it anymore. I don't like making it four syllables ever since I learned the "eu" is a diphthong in Greek, but I don't think /sju/ would be natural in my accent, and the coalesced pronunciation with /ʃu/ seems somehow dubious. Dropping the /j/ entirely also seems like it would be wrong though. Perseus has the same problem...

@Cerberus It seems nobody wanted to go to Troy.

Cerberus

02:43

Indeed not.

Where have all the flowers gone?

What if they'll give a war and nobody will come?

@sumelic But we're not using the antique pronunciation anyway, are we?

So we are not bound but by our own tradition.

Dutch pronounces the Greek -eu- in a weird way too.

It is different from normal Dutch eu, from classical Greek eu, from French eu, and from German eu.

It is pronounced like Dutch ui.

sumelic

@Cerberus Nah, but normally Greek "ευ" corresponds to /(j)u/ in the English tradition (like in "Zeus"), not /iə/. The inconsistency bothers me.

Cerberus

Which makes no sense.

@sumelic Well, "normally"?

Why is Zeus normal and not Perseus?

sumelic

@Cerberus So I guess in a way, it's like "long u" in Dutch also? Isn't that where Dutch "ui" comes from?

Cerberus

Dutch ui was once a long u, yes.

And so was ue.

And it is true that eu and ue were occasionally interchanged, in old Dutch.

Many centuries ago.

But I think that was the exception.

I can't be sure that Greek eu wasn't pronounced like a long u in old Dutch.

But, if so, then why did the pronunciation of Greek eu change into what sounds like modern ui, while the pronunciation of other instances of eu became like French eu, as it is now the standard in Dutch?

And the sound of modern ui did not exist in Dutch at the time, I believe.

sumelic

@Cerberus There's lots of other words like Zeus. Eukaryote, pneumatic, pseudonym. The only other words like Odysseus are all words that end in -eus like Perseus, Theseus, Prometheus, Morpheus. It seems like a false analogy with the pronunciation of words that are from Latin second declension masculine nouns like nucleus. E.u in hiatus also occurs in words like museum, but that's from Greek μουσεῖον so it's different.

Cerberus

02:57

I don't want that to be true.

But you make a good case.

sumelic

@Cerberus That is mysterious. There are some words in French where "eu" represents /y/ (the word eu itself is an example). I can't think of any others in modern use but for example sûr and dû used to be spelled seur and deu. The circumflex is a remnant of this (although I believe even that is now optional with the most recent spelling reforms).

Cerberus

@sumelic Be assured, if that is true, that I would have protested vehemently against this false pronunciation of -eus in the 19th century!

@sumelic Other forms of avoir have it too.

Don't they?

I'm trying to think of other examples...

But, yes, the pre- or early-modern Dutch confusion between eu and ue may have something to do with that.

sumelic

@Cerberus Oh, that's right. Le passé simple. I never think about it because as a non-native speaker, I don't use it often.

Cerberus

Consider the current Dutch confusion about oi.

@sumelic And also the ehm, what's it called eussent?

Does that have a circonflex?

It's a kind of (plu)perfect subjunctive, you know it.

sumelic

@Cerberus Something like j'eus, tu eus, il eût, nous eûmes, vous eûtes, ils eussent.

Cerberus

03:01

S'ils eussent...blah blah something.

sumelic

The circumflex doesn't appear before "s" since that would be redundant.

Cerberus

Oh, is that the passé simple.

sumelic

Haha, it is if I'm remembering it correctly.

Cerberus

I'm confusing tenses.

But it can be used in the irrealis, can't it?

sumelic

You're not confused. I think the passé simple is the base of the pluperfect subjunctive

Cerberus

03:03

At least in the 18th century.

No what?

Oh.

OK.

sumelic

The subjunctive is the same as the indicative in the third person plural.

Cerberus

I don't think the modern irrealis has it any more, though?

Yes, that I know.

I didn't mean present subjunctive.

sumelic

But in the other forms, we get something like j'eusse, tu eusses, il eusse, nous eussions, vous eussiez. I think.

Cerberus

Eussaient?

Ah, that's probably the tense I had in mind.

sumelic

I remember a line from a poem that had the word assassinassiez. That's the pluperfect subjunctive.

Cerberus

03:05

Haha.

sumelic

It's supposed to sound quite ugly to native speakers. Or some of them, anyway.

Cerberus

Yes, so I did mean the pluperfect subjunctive after all, then.

Or just funny.

I remember enjoying the irrealis in Laclos.

sumelic

Whoops, not pluperfect after all, I meant imperfect. I just looked it up. Pluperfect would use an auxiliary verb.

Cerberus

> victime d’une folie de l’amour, elle était perdue si je ne l’eusse sauvée

Why imperfect?

sumelic

@Cerberus Not sure; but I don't believe there is a perfect past subjunctive. The perfect-imperfect distinction in French is quite gappy. It's basically a past subjunctive if I remember right.

Tonepoet

03:10

@sumelic One donkey ate two other donkeys and said "I did so easily".

Cerberus

@sumelic I think I meant etymologically.

From the Latin pluperfect subjunctive.

sumelic

@Cerberus Hmm, it looks like it is. I never knew that. Also, I forgot a bit of the passé simple. The third person plural is different in indicative and subjunctive after all: the indicative is supposed to be eurent.

Cerberus

Si!

Aren't all the forms of the passé simple with eu-?

But wait, you meant subjunctive passé simple? Does that exist?

Or is that what you call eussent?

sumelic

@Cerberus right.

Darn, this chat is really lagging on my phone. Sorry if I double-post anything.

@Cerberus It doesn't exist, no. Eussent is imperfect subjunctive.

Cerberus

03:26

I haven't seen any double posts.

@sumelic I remember discussing this tense with someone, a while ago.

It may have been @tchrist.

sumelic

@Tonepoet Hi! I feel like that's a pun, but if it is, I failed to interpret it.

Cerberus

So it is called imperfect despite its origin.

sumelic

@Cerberus Yes. I think there's some grammatical reason for it being classified as imperfect, but I don't know what it is since I never learned the details of where to use it. All learner's resources say it is pretty much useless to know.

Cerberus

To know why it is called that?

Or how to read a verb in that tense?

sumelic

Basically, to know the circumstances where it can be used. In modern writing, it's pretty much always acceptable to use the present subjunctive instead. But if I remember correctly, the present subjunctive is also prescribed for past events in some circumstances even in old-fashioned writing.

Cerberus

03:38

Useless to know is a strong term!

For many people, reading literature is quite important.

And literature will in turn make you more proficient.

If that matters.

sumelic

Looks like I was wrong about complicated rules: it sounds like you can always substitute a present subjunctive with a past subjunctive if the clause is in the past.

Cerberus

Now I'm mobile too.

sumelic

It's useless in the sense that verb endings in general are not very important for understanding written French.

Cerberus

My computer shut down, telling me to go to bed

I don't know about very important.

And I don't know about priority.

sumelic

Sometimes they disambiguate, but most of the time, the word order tells you what the antecedent is. And pronouns cannot be dropped like in Spanish.

Cerberus

03:42

But I find it quite useful to know tenses.

This tense may indicate an irrealis.

Tonepoet

@sumelic Break up Assassinassiez at before each vowel, read it again and it might be easier to understand what I was trying to do. XP

sumelic

It's useful to learn a few common and highly irregular forms like "fusse," but most of the time, you don't need to know if a verb is subjunctive or indicative to understand the meaning of a sentence.

@Tonepoet Lol

To an English speaker, the choice between subjunctive and indicative seems mostly arbitrary or unnecessary anyways.

Cerberus

04:14

That is not the way I try to approach a language...

And I remember finding it useful to know when a certain clause was irrealis in, again, Laclos.

Who does what isn't always immediately clear.

I'm not talking about priorities...

Lawrence

06:15

@Tonepoet Do sumo wrestlers get a waiver?

TIPS

5

Q: User with Negative Age in network profile

I noticed a network profile of a user with the age shown as -972: I dug further to see if there are more such cases but my analysis shows that this is a lone case, though there are a lot of users who have not added their age to their profile. I believe it is a bug in the system that allows...

Tonepoet

@Lawrence It applies to everybody above 40 apparently, although most sumo wrestlers are younger than that.

Apparently it's not exactly as I thought though. It penalizes the employers of fat people, rather than the fat people themselves.

Of course, I'm not sure if that's actually any better, since the easiest way to solve the problem is to fire them.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet In western democracies, that would likely be deemed illegal due to discrimination.

@Tonepoet Not if they're really good at what they do, or if there are cultural norms against that sort of thing.

Tonepoet

06:34

Hmm, discrimination is a difficult thing to judge. It's technically a necessary component of any law to tell the difference between beneficiaries of privileges and criminal offenders. The question regards how relevant the justification is to the law's purpose and if that justification can override rights claimed.

In the U.S.A. there are three or four levels of judicial scrutiny: Rational basis scrutiny, heightened scrutiny*, intermediate scrutiny and strict scrutiny. It's tricky to explain, but each level higher requires the government to more stringently prove their claim.

caub

07:41

@Tonepoet maybe a bug with unix time

Tonepoet

What, like Y2K?

caub

like some date before 1970, but I don't imagine SE being noob

@Shafizadeh and jaja is like 'lol' in Spanish

Lawrence