English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

04:00

That seems clear proof to the contrary of what you suggested earlier; contraception works far better than abstinence education.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It does seem to indicate that A) abstinence-only education has no positive effect, and B) it seems to do no harm either

i.e. it has little effect at all

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus neither contraceptive-based nor abstinence-based education has any significant impact

that's the conclusion from all studies

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly, so we should be focusing on contraception, not abstinence education.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wonder what the longer-term implications are.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs What you quoted says nothing about contraception or education about contraception.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:03

I suspect that part of this is a culture change situation. Contraception is a relatively new concept

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus alternately, we could focus on abstinence education, since it has the exact same effect as contraceptive education! ie. none at all.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs What is your source for saying that?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus true. that's in the other link.

Cerberus

Which link?

JSBᾶngs

the other link from the original article

Cerberus

04:04

Oh, let me see.

JSBᾶngs

unfortunately, both of the links from that article to the original sources are now broken

i'm trying to find new ones

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So abstinence-only education has no effect at all. But considering some of the reasons that contraception is sometimes not used (not easily available, kids afraid parents will find it, etc), if kids were all taught that teenage sex is somewhat inevitable, and that contraception should be mandatory, eventually more people will use contraception all the time because society expects it from them

kinda like how in the old days people didn't wash their hands much. Now, when someone leaves a toilet without washing hands, they can be subject to outright scorn and criticism

Cerberus

Even though that is totally unfounded.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what is

Cerberus

No medical basis.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:06

are you kidding?

Cerberus

For insisting on washing your hands like that.

JSBᾶngs

> A 2002 study published in the British Medical Journal examined 26 programs that included school based programs, multi-faceted programs, family planning and clinic based programs, as well as abstinence programs in the US and Canada. The results: “The interventions did not delay initiation of sexual intercourse in young women or young men, did not improve the use of birth control at every intercourse, or at last intercourse for either men or women, did not reduce pregnancy rates in young women.”

that's from marriagelibrary.org/2007/05/does-anything-work-in-sex-education, which isn't the original link but seems to be similar

@Cerberus i find this to be an ironic turnabout

Cerberus

What does this mean?: "did not improve the use of birth control at every intercourse, or at last intercourse for either men or women"

@JSBᾶngs Could be...

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus "at every intercourse" i assume is the % of people claiming to always use contraception, while "at last intercourse" is the % of people claiming to have used contraception the last time they had sex

Cerberus

Oh, right.

JSBᾶngs

04:12

in any case, since it makes no difference i don't much care what the schools do. i'd almost rather they didn't do anything

Cerberus

Well, we'd have to actually read those studies.

JSBᾶngs

but i feel the need to poke a hole in the high dudgeon that many people get into over denouncing the obvious moral imbeciles on the other side of this issue

i also feel the need to go to bed soon

Cerberus

So do you think it makes no difference at all whether kids know that there is a pill to prevent pregnancy and where to get it? And that condoms can be used to prevent STDs? And which STDs exist, and how they can be transferred?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

the various articles discussing that study describe some of the problems. First, and foremost in my mind, is the fact that the sex-ed takes place when the kids are young and not sexually active. They don't become sexually active for a few more years. By that time they've almost certainly forgotten some of what they've learned.

JSBᾶngs

if you need to know those things, then by all means know them, and make sure your kids know them.

but i'm not sure it really falls under the purview of the schools to teach it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:15

@Cerberus Well, the study seems to show that it's not making much difference what kind of education they're getting.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs I think perhaps teaching children about how they shouldn't have sex until they feel ready, how they shouldn't do it just because someone else wants them to, etc., can be good, especially for children in the lower classes; but I'm not sure I'd want schools to do it, and "abstinence" already sounds a little bit to rigorous to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Oh, I totally think it should. because parents are BAD at this sort of thing. In fact, parents are bad at lots of teaching. that's why we have schools in the first place :)

Cerberus

Perhaps.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 are the schools really any better, though?

perhaps we should just admit that kids is gonna have sex, at ages and in situations when we think they shouldn't, and we don't have any effective way of changing that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Well, they're better at teaching math, and reading, and history, and geography, and teamwork, and science, and writing, and basketball, and biology, and .....

Cerberus

04:17

@JSBᾶngs When parents have very little education and their marriage is unstable, perhaps schools can do a better job. Those kids are most at risk anyway.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Oh, I totally admit that.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus this i actually agree with. sex education for high-risk kids is probably a net win.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Agreed. But I really think educating them about basic facts can help in some ways.

@JSBᾶngs Yeah. Children of educated parents don't have much of a problem with sex anyway, I'd say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In fact, that's one of the things I will try to prepare myself and my kids for. They deserve to understand things. they need to understand their bodies, their partner's bodies, peer pressure, and societal judgement.

2

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Star, and the same applies to drugs, smoking, drinking.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:19

Heh, thanks for the vote of confidence. It scares the shit out of me, I must admit.

JSBᾶngs

i intend to teach my kids about drugs, smoking, and drinking by demonstration! since i've done all three

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But the problem I have is that the schools aren't doing an honest enough job with the sex ed, IMO.

JSBᾶngs

heck, we could throw sex in there, too. why not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs just leave your bedroom door ajar, they'll eventually find out

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Your children are not at all at risk.

@JSBᾶngs Yeah, and I still think it's good to start at an early age; I know I wouldn't listen when I was a little older.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:22

►

Cerberus

Teach them the basic facts at 6 or 8, I'd say.

JSBᾶngs

catch-22, though. too young and they forget by the time it's relevant. too old and they won't listen.

anyway, bedtime

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not at risk or what, teen pregnancy? They won't be, because they'll be taught.

JSBᾶngs

bye everyone

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs That way they will be loosened up by the way they get 10 or 12: that's time when they will really understand it and remember. So you probably need two sessions at least. And make sure they aren't afraid to ask questions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:23

no wait!

Cerberus

Bye!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSB watch that vid first

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, and because they will be educated and have a stable, loving home.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure. But low-risk doesn't mean no-risk

And it doesn't mean no STDs, or date-rape, or any of the other problems that can arise

Cerberus

►

The original is much better!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Still, low risk compared to most other children.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:29

@Cerberus yeah

"Daddy screamed like a girl: ah! ah! ah!" hahahaha

Anonymous

Is "I went shopping yesterday" a correct sentence? Or it should be "I went to shopping yesterday"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I can't believe they put this on the internet

Cerberus

@Anonymous The first one is right. "To" is wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Anonymous "went shopping" is correct

"shopping" is not a place you can go to

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm not sure that matters.

Anonymous

04:32

go to is use when I refer to a place, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, "go to" is used with a destination, right? not an activity

Cerberus

@Anonymous Yes, mostly, but it can sometimes be used with infinitives: "I went to pick up my kids from school".

But I don't think "go to" can ever be used with a gerund (= "-ing").

Anonymous

Thank you again. :)

Are you guys English teachers?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Anonymous no, I'm a software developer

Cerberus

I teach English sometimes, but not primarily.

Rather because adults usually know more than kids about anything.

So kids come to me for any subject. I can't always help them, but English is relatively easy to teach.

At least grammar and vocabulary.

Biology, for example, is much harder, at least for me.

Anonymous

04:37

English is hard for me. I restarted learning English for a month, long way to go. :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Anonymous It's a life-long process. Don't give up!

Cerberus

Well, if you compare it with, say, the history of the Russian revolution, which would you find harder to teach, if you had the books and everything the kids use? I'm assuming younger children.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, time for me to go. bye everyone.

Cerberus

Bye!

Anonymous

Bye :) Have a good weekend!

@Cerberus How long you have learned English?

Cerberus

04:42

@Anonymous Hmm hard to say. There was always a lot of English on television when I grew up. My first lessons were probably when I was 10 or something? Then in high school, television, computers, books, that sort of thing. You?

Anonymous

I learned English when I was in school to university. I was eight years ago. I just restarted my English again last week.

Cerberus

OK, cool!

Chatting is a really good way to practice.

And watching films/series with lots of dialogue.

Anonymous

I watch English news everyday. I can understand them. My problem is when I talk with my friends who come from America, They don't understand me.

Cerberus

Huh?

That is weird. I can understand you perfectly.

Perhaps it is your pronunciation?

Anonymous

I think it's my pronunciation.

Cerberus

04:49

Where are you from?

Anonymous

I come from Thailand.

Cerberus

Hm OK, then your accented might come unexpected to them.

They might be more used to, say, a Spanish accent.

Anonymous

I think so. I try to improve my speaking skill. I hope it will be better in one to two years. :)

Cerberus

In any case, perhaps you should try to find an English teacher nearby who can help you with your pronunciation, preferably a native speaker, because it will be hard for you to judge whether his own pronunciation is good.

You could use Forvo.com to look up the pronunciation of words.

Mahnax

-1

Q: English Grammar

Fill in the correct answer OUR TEACHER SAYS THAT THEY ARE _____ A LONGER BREAK AT SCHOOL SO THAT WE HAVE MORE TIME BETWEEN LESSONS. [OPTIONS ARE A) TURNING IN B) GETTING IN C) TAKING IN D) BRINGING IN ]

word-choice

Cerberus

04:53

But then there will be nobody to correct you, hehe.

Mahnax

Kill it with fire.

please

Anonymous

Thank you for your link!

Cerberus

Voted.

Mahnax

Thank you. That is all, I'm off.

Cerberus

OK bai!

Anonymous

04:56

I think he ask his homework.

Cerberus

Yeah.

And he isn't telling us what he thinks is right, or why.

Those kinds of questions are off topic here.

Anonymous

I've gotta go. See you next time. :)

Cerberus

OK bye!

Good luck on your English.

Cerberus

08:00

I am now running a virtual clone of my system in a virtual machine. That is so much fun. I wonder if I can get Virtual Box in my virtual system to mount the clone, and so on, ad infinitum.

Cerberus

08:17

Y'all should try this!

Mahnax

08:34

Go to bed! Haha.

Cerberus

You're right! I should.

You too!

Cerberus

08:53

@MrShinyandNew: User:hagure 9 Jul 2010 2:36 PM :

> Man... A[utohotkey] is the ONE Windows app that makes me (a mac user) jealous. Though Keyboard Maestro is great, it doesn't hold a candle to what AHK can do (and it's not free); I really hate all the super awesome AHK posts because it really drives that point home." — A comment on Lifehacker.

Robusto

12:36

@Cerberus — Why not write your own AHK for Windows 7. Rake in those millions!

Robusto

14:19

Gotta hand it to dem Krauts. I searched all over in English for an answer to a question about trusted certificates. I just needed to know if the untrusted ones I was seeing were a problem. After wasting an hour finding nothing of use, I started searching in German. Got it on the first hit.

> Da der Computer es selbst ausstellt und es Dir nicht von einer beglaubigten Zertifizierungsstelle zugeschickt worden ist, ist das Zertifkat automatisch nicht vertrauenswürdig. Das ist korrekt so.

Klar. Danke.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

15:01

6

Q: "Advise" vs "advice"

In what contexts are those two words used? It's been a while since I've read the grammar books and I don't exactly remember the definitions of a few terms like adjective, so I would really appreciate it if the answers didn't leave it off by saying x is verb and y is adjective - I learn more by p...

grammar confusables

So we have three, count them: three answers from March 25th saying the exact same thing, and then 23 hours ago someone adds a fourth answer saying the exact same thing, and then 4 hours ago someone adds a fifth answer saying the exact same thing.

That's like deja vu all over again!

1

A: "Advise" vs "advice"

Advice is a noun and advise is a verb.

1

A: "Advise" vs "advice"

more simply: Advice is the noun. Advise is the verb.

And them gets points OMG TROLOLOL.

Robusto

Ain't no justice.

And may I just note that it seems quite apparent that FF gets a real burr under his saddle if anyone writes anything that is not rendered precisely as he would have himself.

@RegDwightѬſ道 — Yogi Berra would be proud.

> In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Mahnax

16:08

@Cerberus I did.

Cerberus

Hi!

Good.

Robusto

@Cerberus: What are you doing up before nighttime?

Cerberus

@Robusto Just woke up!

Robusto

Is it nighttime in Cheeseland?

Cerberus

5pm.

I suppose that would be past your bed time.

Robusto

16:18

@Cerberus Nö.

Snarky puppies don't get treats, btw.

Cerberus

What if they look all sleepy and groggy?

With half-closed eyes?

Robusto

That might work on Kit. Not on me.

Matt Эллен

Hi!

Alenanno

Hello guys

Matt Эллен

hi @Alenanno

Cerberus

16:31

Hi.

@Robusto Rats. How about bacon?

Alenanno

@MattЭллен hey there

:)

Matt Эллен

I've just ordered a Spanish/English dictionary on CD :). Thinking about it I should have just walked to OUP and got them to give me one. I don't understand why their website doesn't let me download one.

Alenanno

Guys, what sources would you consider as very reliable about English usage concerning phrases and expressions?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Still cool!

@Alenanno The OED?

Matt Эллен

@Alenanno Phrase Finder often gives me good results

@Cerberus yeah, I'm looking forward to getting it.

Alenanno

16:36

Thank you both, I'll have a look at that, @Matt

Cerberus

@Alenanno But I didn't completely understand what you need: what do you want to use it for?

There's also this website called English.stackexchange.com.

Matt Эллен

:D

lol

Alenanno

Ahah I'll explain

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus most of the people there can't even speak English properly!

Alenanno

I got a down-vote on some old answer I gave and I wanted to check if my claim was correct and back it up or instead correct my own answer. So, EL&U is obviously excluded.

Cerberus

16:39

@MattЭллен They can still quote Wiki, Etymonline, and the OED properly.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus true, true :D

Cerberus

@Alenanno So what was this claim?

Matt Эллен

breath in. you're going on the small screen

Alenanno

About the phrase "the reason is because"

I wrote "it's wrong", but it seems it's kind of accepted although the usage is much less than "the reason is that..."

So

I wanted to investigate

more in depth

Matt Эллен

you could look at an ngram of the two phrases and see where they turn up in literature

Alenanno

16:42

Well, the ngram says I'm "right" for both AmE and BrE usages, but the other one is still used although not as much... But still it covers written language, not spoken

look

this is AmE

books.google.com/ngrams/…

this is BrE

books.google.com/ngrams/…

(why don't they become images?)

Matt Эллен

that would suggest that "the reason is because" isn't wrong

@Alenanno (because they URL doesn't have an image suffix, e.g. .jpg)

Alenanno

Ah I see

Matt Эллен

since people use it and are understood

what do you mean by wrong?

Alenanno

You mean "what did you mean"... I replied in May 2011, if I remember well :D

I'd have given a totally different answer if I replied now

Matt Эллен

:D

sounds like it's ripe for an edit!

Alenanno

16:48

ripe?

Matt Эллен

yes

Alenanno

what does it mean?

Matt Эллен

sort of a synonym for ready

ripe - as in when a fruit is ready to be picked

ripe for the taking I think is an idiomatic use of ripe

Cerberus

@Alenanno It depends on how much time there is between "reason" and "because" in speech, or how many words in writing. If there are several words between them, it is probably acceptable, though "that" is to be preferred always. If it is "the reason is because", it sounds rather informal, and I believe most style guides advise against it. So that amounts to "wrong" to many people.

Alenanno

eheh :P

I feel that if I edit it, I'd be like dishonest lol

Matt Эллен

16:50

ripe for the taking

Alenanno

what is a good english idiom for "worry too much about something that is not big deal"?

Matt Эллен

making a mountain out of a molehill

Alenanno

Ahah nice

thanks

Matt Эллен

np :)

awww man, at the speed the earth is going, it's going to take a whole year to get around the sun

Alenanno

lol

:P

Cerberus

17:13

@MattЭллен But less than a quarter of an orbit to spring!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yay!

I will be glad when winter is done

Cerberus

Yeah!

Matt Эллен

I thought you liked it cold?

Cerberus

Well, sort of.

I prefer 18 C over anything, except perhaps when all I have to do is sit.

And I prefer 0 over 30.

Matt Эллен

I see

Yeah, 18C is best

Cerberus

17:18

OK!

Many people like it hot.

Matt Эллен

but I like it warm over cold. I'd pick 30 over 0

Cerberus

Ahh I knew it!

Matt Эллен

:D

I'm so predictable

Cerberus

Well, 30 could be acceptable if I'm sitting in the shade without moving at all.

Matt Эллен

Yeah, that's what I'm imagining I'd be doing

Cerberus

17:19

Hehe.

Matt Эллен

no one should work at that kind of temperature

Cerberus

That makes sense!

The problem is that one usually has to.

Or at least buy groceries, visit friends or tourist attractions...

Matt Эллен

if God's so smart, why'd he make it so I have to do a bunch of things?

Cerberus

I know.

And I mean that as in "I know what you mean!".

Not Her ways.

Matt Эллен

not that you're God. I see :D

Cerberus

17:22

What is your opinion on those who extend the sexless "they" to God? Not His word, but Their word?

I prefer Her.

Matt Эллен

I prefer none of the options. They're all equally good. Sometimes I say Her to be cute, but I'll probably default to Him, because I'm a sexist man

I've not used They, but it's not a bad option

At least in Christianity, God is plural anyway

What is your opinion, @Cerberus?

Matt Эллен

17:44

woohoo! cognitive science is in beta!

user19161

1

Q: Difference between "art exhibition" and "art fair"

What is the difference between art exhibition and art fair? It seems both show something to an audience.

word-choice differences

user19161

I am not too sure about my answer. I checked a few dictionaries and it seems that fair has the connotation of selling.

user19161

@MattЭллен Good for you!

user19161

@MattЭллен Three in one?

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting yeah

Cerberus

17:58

@MattЭллен I agree on all points, especially the sexism!

user19161

@MattЭллен See? Someone actually asked if you knew Russian because of those characters.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus :O I'd be hurt, but that's a girly way to feel.

@WillHunting it's true! :D

user19161

@MattЭллен No sexism in chat! There is no girly way.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…