English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

20:01

@tchrist Wait... Poles think Germany is both the least and most trustworthy? Obviously something fishy in Denmark. Which is noticeably missing. NO one gives a thought to them till it starts smelling.

tchrist

@Mitch They’re in there. Remember: Danes are really just Germans who think themselves English.

Mitch

@GlenTheUdderboat Yeah, but that sounds like you think you're better than everyone else, rather than that particular nation is worse.

tchrist

In London back in the 1980s there used to be a home for physically disabled people which straddled the boundary of two London boroughs, one Labour controlled, and one (more leafy suburban) which was Conservative controlled. Approaching from the Labour side (I think it was Enfield) there was a sign warning traffic to Take Care, Disabled Persons Crossing. Approaching from the other direction the sign read Cripples Crossing. It caused some mirth in the media. — WS2 4 mins ago

Mitch

@tchrist I thought that was the Dutch. It would account for their unfriendliness.

tchrist

@Mitch You’re thinking of William of Orange.

Glen The Udderboat

20:06

apotemnophobia AND dysmorphophobia

mentalism

tchrist

Don’t be mental.

The whilom cripple is now differently abled.

Glen The Udderboat

The Mentalist

The Mentalist is an American police procedural television series that ran from September 23, 2008 until February 18, 2015, broadcasting 151 episodes over seven seasons, on CBS. The show was created by Bruno Heller, who is also its executive producer. The show follows former "psychic" Patrick Jane (Simon Baker), who is a consultant to the California Bureau of Investigation (CBI), using the highly developed observational skills he previously employed to "read" people's minds. On May 10, 2014, CBS renewed the series for a 13-episode seventh season which premiered on November 30, 2014 and later announced...

tchrist

terdon

@tchrist who's the second one? Vaguely familiar but I can't place him.

Andrew Leach

terdon

20:15

Glen The Udderboat

Sorry. Wrong genre?

terdon

@GlenTheUdderboat No eyebrows, no fair!

Johan Larsson

Andrew Sorensen Keynote: "The Concert Programmer" - OSCON 2014

►

@tchrist @Ron (@Robusto)

maybe not a great song but nice with live coding

crl

Well jsbin is like live coding too, a bit cheap right

Johan Larsson

20:32

never tried it

Johan Larsson

20:53

Sea & treeline, fjord. I guess ~400m there.

Mitch

Johan Larsson

Reagan?

user116848

Eyebrows look big.

user116848

By the by, I upload my pic with a beard. Not many people find the idea attractive.

Johan Larsson

yes he liked imperial units.

user116848

21:00

Sorry, I have a habit of writing what's on my mind XD

Johan Larsson

hard to write other things no?

user116848

Yeah :-)

tchrist

@terdon Freddie Jones as Thufir Hawat in the 1984 version of Dune.

crl

21:31

I remind a bit to have seen Dune (the movie) with those gigantic sand worms

with 3 lips

Filme: Duna (Dune) - 1984 - Dublado

►

I don't remember why they had to ride those worms

Dune (1984) Fav quotes and scenes

►

talking about eyebows ^

And Sting playing..

mikeonly

22:25

Hi.

I need some help with conditionals.

tchrist

English conditionals are easy.

       I: If he will jump, you will not have to.
      II: If he will jump, he can win.
     III: If he will jump, he may win.
      IV: If he will jump, you must follow.
       V: If he will jump, you dare not follow.
      VI: If he will jump, you need not follow.

     VII: If he escapes, catch him.
    VIII: If he escapes, you can catch him.
      IX: If he escapes, you catch him.
       X: If he escapes, you could catch him.
      XI: If he escapes, you may catch him.
     XII: If he escapes, you might catch him.

Just about any combination is possible, but some are not.

mikeonly

@tchrist Thanks, I am glad to hear your style of answering again.

But my question is more concrete now.

I am writing a story about the past.

tchrist

If you will please present your sentence, I shall be delighted to attempt an answer.

mikeonly

Can I use second type of conditional?

tchrist

I have no idea.

mikeonly

22:35

For example.

tchrist

Do understand that "second conditional" is a dubiously convenient myth foisted off on non-native learners. Native speakers don’t think that way.

The purpose for giving learners just a tiny handful of valid conditionals is to avoid the few invalid ones.

mikeonly

@tchrist Hm, interesting.

tchrist

May I see your sentence?

mikeonly

I don't have any, I am trying to translate it from Russian. I'll try to come up with an example in English.

tchrist

Is this an "if ... then ..." type conditional?

mikeonly

22:39

Yes.

tchrist

Slavic conditionals are rather different from Germanic or Romance ones, so it is good that you are asking.

You said this in the past.

Let’s just look at the if part first.

Did the thing actually occur, or is this more hypothetical?

mikeonly

Ok. So. I am writing a story as if I were a Robinson Crusoe. I found an extremely nourishing fruit. Now I want to write about a possibility of eating this fruit and becoming satisfied.

tchrist

> "If he called John, he must surely have called Mary as well."

That one I just wrote is not very hypothetical.

mikeonly

It's hypothetical, and it's not unreal at all.

tchrist

There is that middle case, yes.

Not very hypothetical and certainly not unreal: If he ate the fruit, he became satisfied.

mikeonly

22:44

So, speaking about the past, I should say: «I ate this fruit, I would become satisfied».

Hm, why without «would»?

tchrist

> Whenever he would eat the fruit, he would become satisfied.

mikeonly

@tchrist You option sounds great, but I cannot explain it knowing only what I know.

tchrist

Is that the sense?

Like, a repetitive thing?

> Whenever he ate the fruit, he was satisfied.

mikeonly

I think that one is closer «If he ate the fruit, he became satisfied.»

tchrist

The would isn’t strictly necessary in that case, but if you use it, you must use it in both places.

Right, so that’s one of those conditionals they never teach you about. The thing is, it is super-common.

Both sides are real.

mikeonly

22:47

@tchrist Which are not proper to be used?

tchrist

@mikeonly I don’t want to give you bad examples. :) Just kidding. Really, I would have to see it to say whether it was not one that we use.

mikeonly

(I am referring to that long list of conditionals)

tchrist

@mikeonly Oh those. Those are all valid examples.

Some are archaic, however.

mikeonly

Wow.

tchrist

Yes, this is why the whole "numbered conditional" thing is rotten apple, so to speak.

mikeonly

22:49

If he will jump, he may win. — How is that right?

I know only several cases in which one can use future in conditional part.

tchrist

I think your case of real past in the if portion is the most common case that is not normally taught but should be.

@mikeonly That is not the will that indicates futureness, but the one that indicates willingness, volition.

> If you would please take your seats, we can get started.

mikeonly

Yes, I know this case.

tchrist

You can pretty much "never" use the future in the if part. If you see something that looks like that, it is actually something else.

> If only he would jump, he might win.

mikeonly

@tchrist And how real is this case?

tchrist

That is the sense of the "If he will jump, he may win" except that it is more strongly hypothetical. It is still the volition case not the futurity case.

mikeonly

22:52

«If he ate the fruit, he became satisfied.» Can you please describe this sentence in different words so that I am sure that I understand it perfectly right?

tchrist

At those times that he ate the fruit, he was no longer hungry.

Does that make sense?

@mikeonly Perhaps you have seen the expression "If only it were so!" As you see by the were marker, it is strongly hypothetical.

mikeonly

@tchrist Your explanation of «If he ate the fruit, he became satisfied.» is understandable. But it also reveals some inaccuracy of translation.

tchrist

Oh I see.

Are you using the conditional mood in Russian?

mikeonly

What is conditional mood?

tchrist

бы + past tense.

> If I were you, I would not go.

That is a hypothetical, not a real past.

mikeonly

22:58

We do use it, though not in the sentence I am trying to translate now.

tchrist

Ok.

English uses would both for conditional-mood things and for um imperfect pasts.

mikeonly

Do you understand Russian? Maybe I'll try to write its initial form?

tchrist

@mikeonly Alas no, you will have to ask @RegDwigнt, one of our moderators. I have no Russian.

mikeonly

Ok, let me continue my attempts of explanation.

tchrist

Sure.

mikeonly

23:02

The situation: He managed to eat this fruit and became satisfied.

tchrist

Why are you thinking of using if at all?

mikeonly

@tchrist Because, we now can assume, that if he (eat?) this fruit, he (become?) satisfied.

tchrist

I’m thinking that this is more of a when sense.

mikeonly

Hm.

Maybe another sentence.

tchrist

If he managed to eat the fruit, he was satisfied.

If he did not, then he was not.

@mikeonly Ok, sure.

mikeonly

23:05

Imaging him being extremely hungry, to that extent that even one fruit could make him be satisfied.

crl

He envisioned himself eat that fruit and be very satisfied

tchrist

He was so hungry that even a single fruit satisfied his hunger?

Is that the situation?

mikeonly

@tchrist Yes.

And now I am trying to make a conditional.

crl

He has a low appetite, and is skinny

mikeonly

If he gets a fruit → he becomes satisfied.

tchrist

23:07

If he found a piece of fruit, it satisfied him.

That's the "whenever" sort of if. It is not really conditional/unreal.

And I think it is a repetitive sense here.

mikeonly

But whenever means some sort of regularity.

tchrist

True.

mikeonly

@tchrist Yes, but is there any?

tchrist

Is this just one isolated event?

crl

use "if ever" then

tchrist

23:09

@crl Yes, that would work.

mikeonly

Yes, I am afraid it's an isolated event of being extremely hungry.

tchrist

If ever he found even a single piece of fruit, eating it took the edge off the hunger gnawing at his empty stomach.

mikeonly

If ever he ate a fruit, he became satisfied.

Like that?

tchrist

Yes, or just "was satisfied" instead of "became".

@mikeonly It implies a rare but real past event.

crl

past event or hypothetic event?

tchrist

23:11

He was satisfied to eat a single piece of fruit at such times as he was lucky enough to find one.

By the way, we don’t normally say "a fruit" in English. I mean, you can say it, but I’m not sure it has the sense you want here.

mikeonly

@tchrist Ok, I'll keep it in mind.

tchrist

Normally fruit is not a count-noun. It is a mass-noun, so takes some partitive prefix like "a piece of".

There are times when it can be a count noun, but I’m not sure this is one.

Translation is really hard.

crl

Oh fruit is both countable and uncountable?

tchrist

@crl Unfortunately.

An orange is a different (kind of) fruit than an apple.

mikeonly

Can we terminate the result of becoming not hungry after managing eating a piece of fruit?

tchrist

23:14

> Do you have any fruit? Yes, we have some.

@mikeonly Just put both in the simple past?

mikeonly

@tchrist But it would mean an undesired regularity.

tchrist

Then you would need a longer sentence that made clear there was no regularity.

mikeonly

In Russian the second part would be in future.

tchrist

> On that rare occasion when he chanced upon a piece of fruit, that little bit satisfied his hunger.

@mikeonly English uses would for "the future in the past".

My brother is coming tomorrow. Yesterday he said he would be here today, but he cannot leave yet.

mikeonly

Where can I read about all these types of conditionals?

tchrist

23:18

Heh.

I do have a paper reference here somewhere.

mikeonly

I imagine a big book solely on conditionals with an extensive example giving.

tchrist

“It is clear that a division of conditionals into the zero, first, second, and third categories does not adequately reflect actual usage.” —from “If only it were true: the problem with the four conditionals”, Christian Jones and Daniel Waller, ELT Journal 65:1 pp 24–32 (2011), Oxford University Press, doi: 10.1093/elt/ccp101. — tchrist Jan 24 at 14:26

There, that one.

mikeonly

Thank you!

Do you have some comprehensive and absolutely traditional English grammar reference?

Long discussions on whether one construction should be used but not another, explanation of word choice, etc?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating characters in answer: What's the word Copyright and `(C)' mean? by poooooooooooooooooooooooooooop on english.stackexchange.com

crl

Found this on English grammar, it even has something on if conditionals ego4u.com/en/cram-up/grammar/conditional-sentences

tchrist

23:26

@mikeonly I probably do not. "Absolutely traditional" is going to run afoul of some of the strange ways of changing the names of things that we see recently.

@crl That has the problem that the paper refers to.

So long as you still have "numbered conditionals", you are missing out.

crl

Ah it's too simple

tchrist

Because you see, English does not actually have any such thing.

@crl Yep!

mikeonly

@tchrist I am on the way of discarding them!

tchrist

@mikeonly If you can catch Reg, I’m sure he could clear up your question here very very quickly.

Since you could show him the Russian. It’s one of his first languages.

He doesn’t come by very often on the weekends, though.

J. Musser

poooooooooooooooooooooooooooop

1

offensive user ^^

tchrist

23:31

@J.Musser What, another?

Oh right.

mikeonly

@tchrist I like reading books. Books on English grammar. Those stylish and old ones. But you claimed there is no such a book.

J. Musser

no, just the user

tchrist

You have to flag one of his postings.

Okay, I have just done that.

J. Musser

@tchrist they're all gone; just posting in here in case there was a mod

tchrist

@J.Musser Just because they’re all gone is no barrier to me flagging them. :)

J. Musser

23:33

@tchrist true.

tchrist

I have done that. I’m sure a mod will get around to destroying the account soon enough.

Sometimes I think all of ELU needs a Protect on it. I’m just kidding, but gosh.

J. Musser

The profile has already been flagged. I was simply posting in here in case a mod was in here; apparently there wasn't.

tchrist

Oh I see. Then I did an extra.

Andrew was here earlier.

J. Musser

@tchrist drupal.se gets by far the most spam.

tchrist

He may still be here for all I know.

@J.Musser Well, spam in the layman’s sense of vandalism.

J. Musser

23:36

@tchrist he hasn't been on the site for 45 mins now

tchrist

We aren’t supposed to use the spam flag except for advertising, but I really wish it were "advertising or vandalism".

J. Musser

@tchrist use the 'offensive/abusive' flag.

tchrist

You know, like you can do when rejecting tagwiki edits.

@J.Musser I do, when possible.

J. Musser

It gives the same penalties as a spam flag.

tchrist

Yeah, I know.

Moreover, it carries the same auto-delete potential when there are enough of them.

J. Musser

23:38

and 6 of either will nuke the post. I think if a post is nuked that way, a 'flag user' option should come up.

tchrist

That user’s post did not last long.

@J.Musser As in that it probably does, or that it does not yet ought to?

J. Musser

No, us MSE taverners got on it

mikeonly

Please inform me if somebody finds an old and comprehensive grammar reference.

J. Musser

@mikeonly I'm one xD

tchrist

Heh.

mikeonly

23:39

@J.Musser And what is it?

tchrist

@J.Musser We have smoke detector here too you know.

14 mins ago, by SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating characters in answer: What's the word Copyright and `(C)' mean? by poooooooooooooooooooooooooooop on english.stackexchange.com

@mikeonly He’s talking about himself. :)

J. Musser

@tchrist that option isn't a feature, I just made it up, and wished it was a feature.

mikeonly

@J.Musser Have you written a book or how do you suggest to be read?

J. Musser

@tchrist I know, but that one only posts elu junk.

tchrist

@J.Musser I’m sure you know about question bans and answer bans.

J. Musser

23:40

I have 140 SE accounts, from which I flag network junk.

@tchrist yup

tchrist

It isn’t especially common to find a user bent on vandalism who has accounts on multiple sites. It is not especially uncommon to find spamvertisers who do, though. Just not for long. :)

J. Musser

Currently, I'm the only user on all of Stack Overflow that has the Marshal badge, and hasn't posted on the site, or edited anything.

tchrist

Heh.

So you complain a lot. :)

J. Musser

@tchrist Drupal gets the most spam, followed by Meta, and then the others.

tchrist

I have four-digit flag counts on both SO and ELU.

@J.Musser I wonder why!

No, really. I do.

J. Musser

23:44

arqade gets the most offensive posts (no surprise there)

@tchrist I have a ton on SO flags also. 1562 alone are from flagged comments.

1562 comments flagged
1562 deemed helpful

all deemed helpful.

tchrist

Well, I was only counting helpful ones. :)

J. Musser

@tchrist yeah, of course.

tchrist

But does Meta.SE actually get more than its fair share of vandals?

J. Musser

I have only 47 helpful flags on ELU

mostly spam

tchrist

Snap to it! :)

Motoko Kusanagi

23:47

I've never used this stackexchange site before. Is it appropriate for me to ask if my answer... is an answer?

J. Musser

@tchrist Yeah, to be sure

@MotokoKusanagi Use the meta site.

Motoko Kusanagi

Thank you.

J. Musser

@MotokoKusanagi actually, it depends.

@MotokoKusanagi what answer do you mean? Can you link to it?

tchrist

1

A: What is it called when someone hates disabled people?

What is it called when someone hates disabled people? In my social groups, the word you are looking for is stigmatic; the root word being stigma. [Stigma is] a set of negative and often unfair beliefs that a society or group of people have about something[.] - Merriam Webster I am disa...

That is certainly an answer.

J. Musser

@tchrist Looks like an answer to me.

tchrist

23:50

It may not be the one the original poster was looking for or expecting, but it is definitely an answer.

@J.Musser I never doubted. She is the one who asked whether it was an answer.

J. Musser

@tchrist If it is an answer (it looks like one by me), then there is no need to bring it up in meta.

tchrist

@J.Musser Are you talking to yourself? :)

J. Musser

@tchrist No, talking for the benefit of the op

tchrist

It is pretty easy to tell whether an answer attempts to answer the question without having domain-specific knowledge of judging that answer’s calibre.

J. Musser

@tchrist yeah. In any case, no need to bring that post up in meta, imo

tchrist

23:53

All that is needed is that it be an attempt. Not that it be a good answer or even the right answer.

I would not bother, no.

J. Musser

@tchrist yeah, if someone disagrees, that's what downvotes are for :P

tchrist

@MotokoKusanagi It is very considerate of you to ask, but I would not worry about this answer at all.

J. Musser

I see you're the room owner. Kewl.

one of them, that is

tchrist

Yeah well.

One of those 100k network privs. :)

J. Musser

So you can manage feeds.

:D

tchrist

23:56

Or mismanage them.

J. Musser

lol

tchrist

Mostly it's for cleaning up bad stars polluting the starboard.

J. Musser

there's one

tchrist

Tsk. :)

J. Musser

I recently became a chat mod, so I can remove it too.

tchrist

23:58

Then don’t make me work for it! :)

J. Musser

I could also edit your messages, if I was feeling extra evil. >:]

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…