@Cerberus So TOR supports rate-limiting. And a Tor node that relays other users' traffic is called a "relay" in the Tor lingo. So I guess maybe this "Tor router" isn't necessarily a "relay"? In that case I'd have to retract my data-cap argument.

It is what you want it to be, and presumably not everyone would want that.

they want it to be something they don't want?

I assume the default configuration would not do that.

@MattЭллен Remove the "not".

your not or my not?

@Cerberus "plug and play" network appliances are usually "what you think you want" and not "what you want". Or else they are "plug and configure and fiddle and test and fiddle some more and look shit up on the internet and test and wait and see and discover major problem and diagnose and repair and curse and swear and play"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 who doesn't want that! a hacker's dream ;)

hacker is the positive sense of the word

but it's bootless coz even if I use tor, i cannot penetrate regional blocks!

Especially things that subvert the current implementation of the Internet on purpose, as TOR does.

@MattЭллен Yours.

@MattЭллен Well, sure, if I wanted to hack on stuff, but then I'd install OpenWRT on my D-Link and then just run TOR there.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're just saying "I think this device will be bad because I think it might be".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not every user could do that. And even fewer could do so without failing unwittingly, leaking data.

@username901345 Why not?

@Cerberus but your presumption is that not everyone wants it, and it is what everyone wants it to be, there for they want it to be something they don't want

@Cerberus No. I'm saying "I don't think this device can meet the promise of 'plug and play' because so far no devices I've ever encountered, and there have been dozens, have managed to achieve plug-and-play, and they were playing by the 'rules', while TOR is designed to break the 'rules' in order to get more privacy."

@MattЭллен Umm if you don't want it, then you don't buy it, and you get what you want, so everyone's happy.

tor is for NSA

@Cerberus I'm not suggesting that every user should do that, or that any user should do that. I'm suggesting that getting a TOR router to do what you want and need it to do may be almost as hard as doing that, though.

agents

@Cerberus and they want to not want it

not for boors like us

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think this argument has any practical use.

techwise

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Odd.

@MattЭллен I don't think they care!

@Cerberus So, my argument that, based on experience with actual users and devices, I find the likelihood of a TOR router being "easy to use" for non-technical users to be low, has no "practical use"?

You're basically saying, device A will be bad because all devices are bad. If if it is true, I wouldn't know what to say to that, it is almost tautological.

@Cerberus Yes. I estimate the probability of a device meeting its expectations based on past experiences with similar devices. Is that not reasonable?

I have no evidence that the people making this device are somehow geniuses who make the entire home-network-device industry look like total morons.

You can put that up as your default opening of any discussion about any tool or instrument at all.

See, now you had the opportunity to correctly write genii, and you didn't.

So you're saying past experience is not relevant? I should just believe them, based on faith?

I have faith in my hammer

Why is it my business whether you believe them?

@Cerberus you're selling it.

Oh, I didn't know that.

that's how it works. you're now employed by the US Navy to sell their TOR devices.

Google sold you to them

You posted a link to a TOR router that's supposedly plug-and-play. I claim I am skeptical that they can achieve PnP status, given that so many others have tried and failed. You then claim that my argument has no merit, because...?

@MattЭллен I thought America had become the enemy of TOR...

@Cerberus that's what they want you to think, so that more people will use it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I did not say "no merit", I said "no practical use". It is far too general.

@MattЭллен ...so that the NSA can sell us more TOR and get rich? Oh, but TOR is free...

@Cerberus so that the NSA can spy on all the supposedly anonymous people and learn where all the disidents live

Oh, that is what you mean.

and anyone who needs to use TOR is automatically a dissident

But they don't need to appear its enemy to do that, do they?

@Cerberus It's not general at all. I'm not skeptical about just any new product, I'm skeptical about this specific product, specifically in regards to the fact that it messes with network configuration and also claims to be PnP. Considering how hard it is to get even regular commercial routers, network cameras, etc, all working nicely together, I am skeptical that these TOR Router folks have somehow fixed all those issues.

@MattЭллен True.

@Cerberus oh, most definitely! it encourages people to use if they know the NSA hates it.

> I'm not skeptical about just any new product

Just about anything I have ever mentioned in this room!

well, you do work for US Naval Intelligence...

You are allowed to be sceptical.

I just don't know what to say to it.

@MattЭллен Hmm perhaps so...

@Cerberus You only mention dubious products!

You think everything that is remotely interesting is dubious!

That modular phone, this TOR router... I'm sure there are others. They have legitimately huge hurdles to overcome!

And you seem to be thinking I am 100% convinced that those devices will work well.

you even say that Apple products aren't good!

@Cerberus Yeah. If it weren't dubious it wouldn't be interesting.

You know why I mentioned that TOR router?

@MattЭллен I?? Never!

:D

Apple is the best. I love white plastic.

By the way, do you know (the original) series The House of Cards, with Francis Urquhart (I don't know the the actor's name)?

yes. I mean I've heard of it. I don't know if I've seen it

We're watching it now, it's pretty fun.

cool

@Cerberus Because of its kickstarter campaign being so highly funded?

It's nice and English, and teeming with intrigue. In a way, it is like Yes, Minister, but no comedy.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

I'll get netflix again when it's Linux compatible and finish the new version

@Cerberus yeah, it looks like I'd enjoy it.

My boyfriend says the British version is better.

@Cerberus All the more reason to be skeptical. Many highly-popular kickstarter projects failed. Some failed because they got too much capital too quickly.

Heh.

You'd be saying the same thing if it had been slow.

"Look, not enough people think it is a good idea, so it must be crap."

No. I'd be worried about one thing instead of two. Now there are technical issues and runaway project management issues instead of just technical issues.

And, if it had been just funded: "look, they only barely scraped in the minimum they need, so they have no leeway, they will run out of money and fail".

If it didn't have enough funding that might be a source of concern. There IS a sweet spot, you know.

Don't worry, I kind of understand the sceptical mindset. I, too, am inclined to scepsis towards new things.

I am reading about internet censorship in the various countries around the world. Seems that it is not so bad in mine after all, lol.

People are giving away their old iPhone4 on Craig's list?

Yes, you should be glad you're not in China or Iran. Or even some European and American countries, in some regards.

@IceBoy can't sell something noöne wants

@IceBoy Seems unlikely...

@IceBoy I got an iphone 4 for free. Well, it's a work phone, but it has essentially (almost) zero value to the company.

I hope nobody has found out that I am Superman yet, lol.

iPhone 6 is all over the place here.

If there is one thing people here have, it is $$$.

So anyway @cerb: I am disappointed in Google today. Where is the Nexus phone? Instead of a phone there is a phablet. sighs And it looks like they'll just keep the Nexus 5 around for another year.

The chrome flash on linux has been fixed. Flash no longer crashes. But this problem happens now and then, so keep fingers crossed.

The iWatch is the next hot item.

But it is weird that this is a persistent problem, what is google doing?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 People who don't care about the €30 they could still get for that phone won't put it up on Craigslist, right?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So am I!

I want an HTC or a Motorola Nexus 5 2014.

@Cerberus They might. Maybe they don't care about the money, but they'd like to see the phone get used.

Or, wait, didn't the current 5 come out in 2014?

@Cerberus yeah. Srsly, the Nexus 6 is really really nice, except it's too damn big and way more expensive than I expected.

@Cerberus No, it's 1 year old now.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I really wonder who would have such a mindset, never seen anything like it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, what is the difference any more between it and a regular phone?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Mm okay.

@Cerberus My coworker got a Galaxy SIII for "free" from his carrier and he just gave me his old Galaxy Nexus, just cuz he wanted someone to use it. (this was a while back)

Perhaps it is because they really didn't want the number 5 twice.

These phones are becoming like house hold pets.

@Cerberus They were fine with using 7 twice

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 To a friend, yes. To a stranger on the Internet?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Indeed.

@Cerberus What's the difference?

If the phone isn't being used, maybe you just want to be rid of it.

You want to give nice things to friends. Strangers you do not care about.

The main reason why some people don't sell stuff online is because they are too lazy.

@Cerberus I give stuff to strangers. Example: I have a really nice desk in my garage that I want to be rid of. If a stranger offered to take it, I'd hand it over.

I'll be right over :-)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But will you go through the trouble of putting it online?

And, if you will, won't you set a (low) price on it?

Do I need a truck?

@Cerberus I have, and got exactly zero interest.

Generally, people only give away things online that they think have little value and are a lot of trouble to get rid of, like couches and desks.

@IceBoy the limiting factor is probably the tabletop part of the desk; the rest can be disassembled. It's fairly wide.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, then perhaps it isn't worth anything, it isn't sellable. Then it makes sense to put it up for free.

@Cerberus Apparently people also give away electronics.

Apparently.

@Cerberus It's worth something, but it isn't worth my time to find the person it's worth something to.

But an electronicum that is still worth €30, that's very unusual.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, so not enough value.

But an Iphone 4 should have enough value.

And it isn't in your way or anything.

It's called charity.

Pretty amazing that an Iranian woman won a Fields medal this year.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Look, someone bid €100 on a used Iphone 4.

I am very surprised that it's still worth that much. Then again, it is probably only 1 year old.

She is from Harvard. So it's not that amazing.

@Cerberus That just seems wrong. The iphone 4 came out in 2010.

If there are no more seeders, can I still download myself using a torrent? That is, I seed to myself? @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It was still sold in 2013, apparently?

You know Apple.

@JasperLoy Yes, you can seed to yourself between computers.

@Cerberus I wasn't aware of that. I thought they were only selling the 4s.

@JasperLoy To seed you need the complete file.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, I see! So a torrent takes at least 2 users to work then?

I wouldn't know, but one seller said "1 year old, bought in 2013".

> Discontinued September 10, 2013

Says Wikipaedia.

Today, I sent three emails, one to Matt, one to Maria, and one to my best friend.

@JasperLoy well, it needs the complete file. Otherwise you can only download the parts that are available. You could have a group of people, each with different pieces, none with the whole file, who collectively have all the parts, who could act as a virtual seed.

But that is unlikely.

@Cerberus what's unlikely? virtual seeds? It's common. But usually only in cases where there are also full seeds.

I have two seeds, lol.

"None with the whole file, who collectively have all the parts".

I've seen unpopular torrents that had only virtual seeds.

But they didn't have all the parts.

yes, they did.

all the parts were there, just not all on one computer.

My country is cracking down on torrent sites this month. Not a problem to me at all.

Okay, but that will be rare.

Those torrents don't usually work well, probably because some of the nodes are not reachable by every other node.

I don't usually use torrent sites anyway.

When they ARE all reachable, the part-seeds usually end up downloading the missing pieces to become full seeds.

@JasperLoy Yeah just use TOR or a VPN.

@Cerberus Pretty hard to find something that works on linux though, glad I found it.

You could run it in a virtual machine.

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword detected, Phone number detected: +91-9950211818 vashikaran specialist in chandigarh on english.stackexchange.com

User for someone with powa to destroy

Who has that power?

Only ELU moderators?

yeah

OK.

@MattЭллен Holy crap, is a bear catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?

@JohanLarsson OK so the elements in your set look like they are different ways of displaying the same thing. Suppose you have \pi. It can be displayed as 314.16%, or 3.14 promille, or 3.14 ppm, or even ~22/7 or 314/100. To me those are ways of displaying real numbers. Since you think of these things as mostly fractions, that's why I suggested calling the set FractionDisplay.

@JasperLoy I'm not amazed that that person can do Fields medal level work, but that they would choose here. I looked up the Putnam exams and they have a separate list of female winners (and only since 1992)

@Mitch yep

The problem I'm trying to solve is adding 1 + 1%

using a type I can have the compiler assert it

Then it will be fine to add 1ppm + 1% cos the types will handle conversions

OMG they have only allowed females to write the Putnam since 1992? That's only 22 years ago. So much for gender equality.

Hello Everyone, I need help in the following sentence as it does not look and sound good to me. However, my co-workers say it is right.

We had a conversation yesterday regarding adding your card information, and you mentioned that you were not able to use your visa cards for billing purpose on Google ad-words, as your visa cards were declined multiple times.

The structure is not well framed.

I see for billing purposeS.

The rest of the sentence is syntactically okay (although I'm not entirely sure about on Google ad-words).

But it is too long and unwieldy. I would cut it into smaller sentences.

I also don't like regarding adding.

Oh something wrong I can't connect to my VPN, maybe they were spying on me and decided to block my VPN LOL.

@JasperLoy: Hi, superman. What is the correct word to write the answer of the form with question "Occupation" if the person has no job or retired person?

Hello folks,

Is "retired" acceptable to answer "Occupation"?

@Cerberus how will you cut it short?

Could you suggest something better than that?

@JasperLoy Hmm have you got it working again?

@InPSTrickswetrust On a form, sure.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Looks like there is some criticism on the TOR router: reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/2j9caq/…

But frankly it sounds a bit hysterical.

@Cerberus OK. Thanks.

De nada.

@Kabir How about this: Yesterday we talked about adding the information from your credit card. You mentioned that you were unable to pay with your visa cards on Google Ad Words, because your cards were declined every time.

This makes more sense to me. Thank you much and I will go ahead and spread your suggestion around here.

Haha good luck.

Often simple language is better than complicated language.

@Cerberus Nope, I will try again tmr, might have to do with the OS. As you know, Linux sucks, LOL.

@InPSTrickswetrust Retired or unemployed, whichever applies.

@JasperLoy Thanks.

Good luck.

@snailboat But that violates basic spelling rules, so I corrected it.

Mm why not?

Is it not our mission to make the world a better place, including stylistically?

As long as it does not impair functionality, that is.

No mission?

I am not always after conformity for the sake of it.

In this case, there is no chance that people would be confused.

And the exact spelling does not matter in any other way.

The right people will judge me right.

If people have a sense of style that I strongly disagree with, then I am unlikely to want to conform to their rules.

@Cerberus That criticism is exactly what I expected.

They did not criticise its plug-and-playness...

But I knew you'd like it.

@Cerberus Putting a space in AdWords is like putting a space in Cer berus. AdWords is the proper name of a product. Spelling it otherwise is a mistake. Even if you don't like it.

No.

Just as you correct errors if you quote someone in a newspaper.

Yes, just as I correct errors, I'm correcting you right now. It's spelled AdWords, if you're talking about the Google product.

I don't see you respelling it Googol, after all.

AdWords is one word, not two.

I corrected Google's spelling.

Just like iPhone is one word.

You mean you incorrected your own spelling.

The space is a conversion of their mid-word capital.

The alternative is Adwords.

That would be better, but still wrong.

Calling it "Ad Words" just makes you seem like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Akin to people calling their computer keyboard a CPU or something.

Or people calling Windows "Microsoft"

The product isn't called "Ad Words", it's called "AdWords". Sorry if you don't like it, but by putting a space in there you are introducing an error. It's one word.

If someone wrote "My computer runs Micro Soft Windows" that'd be an error, right? Same thing with "Ad Words".

Changing the capitalization is defensible, but introducing spaces is not.

Micro Soft would not be wrong exactly. But there isn't really any reason to correct "Microsoft", so why would you?

Besides, micro- is generally a prefix, not a separate word.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why not? Sure it is.

@Cerberus It's just not defensible. Wou ld it ma ke se nse if I wr ote li ke th is?

@snailboat Ah, that is the one kind of word that is traditionally spelled without a space, a relict from old times.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Those aren't parts that can exist as separate words.

Spaces are word boundaries, usually. By introducing a space, you are breaking it into two words. It is a brand name, formed as a compound of two words. You can't just go changing it.

@Cerberus Just because its components were words, doesn't mean the name is valid if you break it up.

It changes the name.

Thus making it wrong.

There is nothing wrong with breaking something into words; arguably, it was already two words, if they had a capital in the middle.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You'd have to prove that.

You are breaking one word: a name, into two words, which are not the name of the product.

Nothing wrong with that.

It is an improvement over silly mid-capitals.

@Cerberus really? I have to prove it? No. Where is your proof that respelling a name is valid?

I don't need to prove anything.

The name Mark is not the same as the name Marc. The name Leeanne is not the same as the name Lee Anne.

The name AdWords is not the same as the name "Ad Words"

You may as well respell it "Advertising words"

It stands to reason that a mid-capital violates basic rules. So you want to change that, unless there is a compelling reason not to. I see no compelling reason why Ad Words would be wrong: it is easily recognisable and it violates no rules. So I reject the burden of justification.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The only reasons I stick with those spellings is because otherwise there might be confusion (who is Mark? Oh, you mean Marc), and out of respect for individual people. Neither applies to Ad Words and Linked In and such.

@snailboat Iphone.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If that were easily recognisable, perhaps I might. But alas.

@Cerberus Ad Words is wrong because it is two words instead of one. You want to argue about mid-caps, fine, but breaking it into two words is plainly wrong. And what justtification do you have for deciding how NAMES are spelled? Next you'll go telling O'Toole that it should be O'toole

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A name of a person that has been spelled the same way for many generations is completely different from a name that does not refer to a person.

I can decide to spell my words in any way I like, and I have stylistic reasons to make recommendations to others.

@Cerberus So people who name things don't get the luxury of deciding the thing's name? because if you don't like the spelling, you'll just change it?

I don't understand why you place so much value in what a certain group of other people writes, even people you do not value highly, and to the point of disregarding all other arguments?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, of course. Why not? But the spelling of a word or name is not something fixed that exists in Plato's realm of ideas: you have the right to write as you please.

A spelling does not "exist".

Users make it every time they write a word.

@Cerberus Of course a spelling exists. My name is spelled the way it is spelled. Deviating from that is a mistake. It demonstrates either carelessness or ignorance or malice on the part of the misspeller.

Nah.

I would leave out the dot, for example.

A spelling does not exist.

@Cerberus No, it does. That is how I see it. Write my name properly, please.

No.

Mr Shiny. I'm even leaving out the "and New"!!

I have never heard you complain about the latter deviation.

Oops!!

That was an error.

I apologise to humanity for violating basic spelling rules in my typo.

@Cerberus Well, that is a short form that is used casually.

But it is Wrong!!

Also chat is very informal. So wrongness is tolerated or even encouraged at times.

But formally, it is wrong. And I am more protective of my real name than my online name.

Only legal documents would be formal enough for me to want to match Google's exact spelling.

@Cerberus Really? You wouldn't care in other business writing?

Anything less formal I feel free to apply basic spelling rules to oddly spelled names, if no other reasons prevent me from doing so.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Depends.

Basic spelling rules do not allow you to insert word-breaks into random words.

@snailboat Well, do most people have a good sense of style?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Paragraph 7, sub III: "basic spelling rules allow you to insert word breaks into random words, especially if you are Cerberus™".

@snailboat That is fine.

I didn't mind either way.

By the way, I usually spell my name with ™, if the website allows it.

For fun.

@Cerberus You misspelled "especially if you are Ker beros"

But do I care if people leave out the ™? Not in the least. I would do so myself.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha, now, those cannot function as separate words, and there was no reason to deviate from the way I spelled it anyway, and my spelling is the traditional way.

And it is a proper name to boot.

Not some silly commercialese buzz word.

@Cerberus "functioning as separate words" is a red herring. The name is AdWords. It functions as one word: an identifier for a product. As separate words it means something else.

@snailboat I have it set to tm,, with Autohotkey.

Like "uptight" means something different than "up tight"

I drove down the highway, not the high way.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it is not a red herring. If my name were Thedogcerberus, you could spell it as the Dog, or Cerberus, or The dog Cerberus without a problem.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but that does not apply to names at all.

@snailboat Yay!

@Cerberus It does.

Does not.

At least not to these names.

I already took possible confusion into account, remember?

@Cerberus Yes, I don't think that was convincing enough. So what if people won't confuse "Ad Words" with something other than "AdWords"? They also won't confuse "high way" with something other than "highway", they'll just assume you don't know what you're writing about.

I don't have a huge problem with "high way" if it's not confusing at all, but there is still conventional spelling to take into account, which tells you to spell highway. That does not apply to names.

You cannot convince me if you keep bringing up examples that are either the names of people or that aren't names at all.

Different rules apply to different kinds of words.

And common sense applies to all.

@Cerberus Why don't you spell the search engine "Googol" then?

Is that what the name is derived from?

@Cerberus It violates common sense to me that you'd consider introducing spaces into a compound word as valid.

@Cerberus Yes, of course it is.

First, Google does not violate a basic rule of spelling. Secondly, I think it might be confusing. So no, I don't write Googol.

I do write Tumbler.

And Redit.

Wow.

Yes, absolutely, many people do.

Nobody does.

@snailboat Well, that might be confusing. And I'm not entirely sure that's what it was derived from.

I've never once seen those. Well, Tumbler is a common error, as with Flickr.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Errr yes, they do.

@snailboat Yeah that violates basic spelling rules.

Well, it is a proper name, so it deserves a capital.

@snailboat Oh, wait, is it with two d's? I didn't know that. Then Reddit.

Haha, indeed, you can.

You know how many people ask questions about how to spell Yahoo, with or without the exclamation mark. The reason is that it is stupid.

But at least you could argue Yahoo! is a sentence-turned-brand-name.

You don't find it a bit childish?

In the name of a company.

Well, there you go...

Perhaps you shouldn't turn a complete sentence into a company name, only phrases.

And I would be inclined to prefer noun phrases...

@Mitch - yes, you've guessed correctly.

@Cerberus Can we register a company name with special characters in the US? Like, =8-), for example. :-)

@DamkerngT. I hope not! But, yes, you probably can.

Baby names, I don't know.

At least you can't here.

A-ha! So, it's possible to have some special characters in a name.

(Actually, A-ha! sounds like a good company name to my ear. :-)

Ahh

Where is Matt?

Do you like the art style of this game?

Yes.

@Cerberus Kinda like Warcraft, perhaps?

So do I, it looks surprisingly watercolourly.

@DamkerngT. Mm I haven't played Warcraft III since...1999.

Or was it Warcraft II?

I quit playing games because I found them too addictive. :P

Heh, yes, they can be.

Have you heard about Air Umbrella?