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18:00
I think it is a good question, but perhaps it is too big for a single question? On the other hand, having all letters in one answer would be overzichtelijk.
@terdon No.
We stopped using æ as a separate letter.
I don't entirely understand what Tom is after.
All 7 OE vowels were their own names.
Because it was spelled phonetically.
If you wanted the /æ/ sound, you wrote æ.
But for the length distinction, all 7 OE letters are exactly the IPA for that letter.
They all said their own names.
Because it was phonetic.
Yes, /æː/ and /æ/ were different phonemes. Same for the other 6 vowels.
But what happened when the vowels became less phonetic?
> Old English had six simple vowels, spelled a, æ, i, o, u and y, and probably a seventh, spelled ie. It also had two diphthongs (two-part vowels), ea and eo. Each of these sounds came in short and long versions. Long vowels are always marked with macrons (e.g. ā) in modern editions for students, and also in some scholarly editions. However, vowels are never so marked in Old English manuscripts.
@Cerberus What do you mean?
Nothing happened.
We never “changed the name of the vowel”.
> a is pronounced [ɑ], as in Modern English father. Examples: macian ‘make’, bāt ‘boat’.
æ is pronounced [æ], as in Modern English cat. Bæc ‘back’, rǣdan ‘read’.
e is pronounced [e], as in Modern English fate; that is, it is like the e of a continental European language, not like the “long” or “short” e of Modern English (actually [i] or [ɛ]). Helpan ‘help’, fēdan ‘feed’.
i is pronounced [i], as in Modern English feet; that is, it is like the i of a continental European language, not like the “long” or “short” i of Modern English (actually [ʌɪ] or [ɪ]). Sittan ‘sit’, līf ‘life’.
See? Every vowel said its own name.
Always has.
To pronounce OE, but slashes or brackets around it.
18:09
So how come the name of the letter I is the long version and not [i]?
In modern English I mean.
By "name", I am referring to the pronunciation of a letter when spelling a word, not to how it is written.
@tchrist Umm we are talking about the names of letters here. They were not actively changed, of course, but they did evolve as the pronunciation of words changed.
I’m just too dumb to understand the question.
It does not connect in my brain.
The letter i had two phonemic variants by length not sound, as it says above. Sittan is the verb to sit and had the short variant, while lif is the noun life and had the long variant.
All the vowel names are the long versions.
Because of the GVS, we started pronouncing the vowels differently.
But of course we retained their names, no matter where that led to.
The letter a was pronounced /a/, whether it was long or short.
@tchrist That's what I mean, it looks like we did not retain their names. We call I "eye" while it's OE pronunciation was ee as in _feet. So, not only did we change the way we pronounce it, we also changed its name.
But then the GVS changed everything, and the letter a started to be pronounced /eɪ/.
What is its “name”?
Do you mean how it is spelled or how it is said?
Itś what you say when you say your ABC.
18:20
11 mins ago, by terdon
By "name", I am referring to the pronunciation of a letter when spelling a word, not to how it is written.
How it's said.
So you asking why the modern vowels in written English no longer follow the Latin versions use for IPA.
To which the answer is, mainly, that the GVS happened after we had settled on the spellings.
Ah, that does indeed explain it.
39 mins ago, by tchrist
@terdon Great Vowel Shift.
So, we had already began to pronounce them as we do when the sounds they make changed.
18:23
Eh?
We use mostly Middle English spellings but Modern English pronunciations.
So the name of the letter was pronounced as in words where that letter was pronounced long in Old English. Then, as the pronunciation of the letter in those words changed, the name of the letter changed along with it and aligned with those same words.
However, when the pronunciation of those words split, when some words with that long vowel came to be pronounced differently from other words with that same vowel, what happened to the name of the letter? And what happened when the pronunciations of formerly differently pronounced words merged?
Or did that never happen?
Please never talk about names of letters. It hurts my head.
Only short vowels split and merged, not long vowels?
@tchrist How should we refer to them then?
The long vowels got stranged, too.
18:26
@tchrist Why? There is no other way to say it. The pronunciation of the name of a letter is as you say the letter when you spell out a word, like zed and pee.
@tchrist Changed, yes. But split and/or merged?
It makes more sense when there are actual, completely different names like in Greek alpha, beta etc.
> However, during the Great Vowel Shift, the two highest long vowels became diphthongs, and the other five underwent an increase in tongue height.
> The printing press was introduced to England in the 1470s by William Caxton and later Richard Pynson. [...] The standard spellings were those of Middle English pronunciation, as well as spelling conventions continued from Old English. However, the Middle English spellings were retained into Modern English while the Great Vowel Shift was taking place, resulting in some of the peculiarities of Modern English spelling in relation to vowels.
@terdon I don't think many languages have that for vowels?
@Cerberus I don't know of any others.
Perhaps that's what makes it easy for me to distinguish between a letter when used as a word and the sound it represents.
I don't find it hard.
18:32
Parma, tinco, calma, quesse. Of course, those are consonants.
The vowels indeed had no names.
@Cerberus What happend to what when formerly differently pronounced words merged?
@tchrist And they are all so cheesy!
Except perhaps tinco.
@tchrist What happened to the pronunciation of the name of the letter?
Did it align with the majority of words with that vowel? Or a few very common ones? Or...?
@coleopterist Congrats. You are 22222 just now.
@Cerberus Why would words have something to do with letters?
So confusing.
I think you are missing the point, no offence.
Perhaps you are missing it because in practice the situation I described never really occurred historically.
Let me give you a fictional example.
18:38
Remember that á in OE became “long o” in ModE.
What is now holy was once háliʒ.
There are the words bike and pike, both pronounced with /iː/.
They are?
34
Q: Pronunciation of the English alphabet

daveWhy are there inconsistencies in the pronunciation of the consonants of the alphabet? For example: 'b' is pronounced like 'bee' but 'm' is pronounced as 'em' rather than 'me'. The pronunciation of 'h' matches nothing and 'j' and 'k' are orphaned twins. In Turkish (the only other language I have ...

@tchrist "Fictional".
@Cerberus Not in my language.
18:39
Will you accept the premises of my example or not?
As I said, my knowledge of the actual history is lacking, so I have to make it up to explain what I mean to you.
Th word lif had /iː/. This is true.
Will you or not?
Can’t promise I will understand.
I would rather real words were used.
With real pronunciations.
I can't.
I am afraid I will become confused.
18:41
There is no way out.
This is becoming tense...
Let me choose nonexistent words, then.
And dramatic...
We have the words lipe and sime, both pronounced with a vowel /iː/ in Old Fake English.
@Daniel Which clearly states “All of the vowels in Latin were named with their long vowel sound. The vowels in English do the same, though the long vowels have gone through the Great Vowel Shift.” — the very thing I have been saying for an hour now.
18:43
Consequently, the letter i when spelling a word was pronounced /iː/ by Old Fake Englishman.
@tchrist That makes sense, right?
@Cerberus What about siff?
Shh.
This is a Socratic dialogue and I need to be in control or it won't work.
OK.
I'm all ears and keyboard.
Haha.
Tchrist needs to be all that. But I'm not sure he wants to listen, so I'll stop.
That doesn't sound Socratic enough to me.
Remember he was forced to commit suicide because he wouldn't stop....
18:46
He needs to be saying "yes" and "absolutely" all the time like a good Socrates sidekick.
Words spelled with long-i were pronounced /i:/ and that was the name of the letter. Those words with the former long-i in them are now pronounced /aɪ/ and so that is how that letter is pronounced.
There is no mystery here.
Shall I go on or not?
@Cerberus Or maybe he's on the side of the hemlock juice maniacs.
You don't seem to be answering me, Tom.
I’m lost.
18:47
@Daniel Who won in the end?
What part of “Words spelled with long-i were pronounced /i:/ and that was the name of the letter. Those words with the former long-i in them are now pronounced /aɪ/ and so that is how that letter is pronounced.” does not explain everything?
@Cerberus From whose perspective?
I cannot explain what I mean to you if you are not willing to let me control the dialogue, Tom. It is too tiring and inefficient.
@Daniel History's!
Control the dialogue is called monologuing.
Feel free.
@tchrist I don't know IPA well enough - are /i:/ and /aɪ/ different?
I could look it up, or else I could ask
18:49
@tchrist No, it is a controlled dialogue, where I want to hear "yes" or "no" in direct answers to my questions.
@Cerberus You mean which entity impacted more people in history?
Definitely Socrates.
there you go.
dies
@tchrist Hang on, so that means that the name of the letter did change.
@tchrist Cerberus was pretty mean, remember.
18:50
Which seems to contradict:
34 mins ago, by tchrist
But of course we retained their names, no matter where that led to.
@tchrist Get back to me when you want this thing explained efficiently. I am going to buy groceries now.
@Cerberus Them's fighting words and you know it.
You are long and tedious and indirect, not efficient.
@tchrist He has since been resurrected from Styx and sent to roam the earth.
@terdon Nah, he can take it.
@tchrist But that is not my fault.
18:51
Question is, who can take whom.
@terdon The pronunciation of each vowel changed. Its spelling did not. End of story.
I have known Tom for a long time now.
I know when he's in the mood or not.
No hard feelings, right?
@Cerberus Wait, I thought you knew already!
I did.
@tchrist Now you lost me. Of course the spelling didn't change. We use the same alphabet. The names, or rather, the way we pronounce the letter itself did change. At least that's what you seem to be saying.
18:53
They used to spell things as they were spoken.
We use their spellings for our pronunciations.
> The Great Vowel Shift was a series of chain shifts that affected historical long vowels but left short vowels largely alone. It is one of the primary causes of the idiosyncrasies in English spelling.
The vowel-pronunciations were the long vowels.
The long vowels all changed.
Therefore, their pronunciations changed with them.
@Cerberus Have fun buying groceries.
Go ahead. Ask something on ELU. Maybe you will get some answer that will make you happy. God knows it won’t be mine.
But it will probably be closed as a dup unless you are especially diligent and clear.
@tchrist I didn't see the original question. It seems like this all makes sense...
@Daniel I know. :(
@tchrist We're getting name confused between spelling and pronunciation and handle.
18:58
@tchrist Yours is making me quite happy thank you. I am just trying to make sure I understand it.
@Daniel I am not. Others are.
1 hour ago, by terdon
It just struck me as strange that in English a vowel can have a name that sounds so different.
I certainly might be.
@tchrist Oh.
So, the correct term for what I called a name is handle?
@Daniel See why I am confused by all this now?
19:00
@terdon No no no, I am just differentiating. That's a metaphor of sorts.
So, what is alpha to α? Its name or something else?
There are three aspects being discussed. a) the written letter b) the spoken pronunciation(s) of the letter, and c) the name of the letter.
@tchrist I'm making it worse. Handle.
‭ A  0041       LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
‭ Α  0391       GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA
@Daniel And here I thought that was a command to cope. :)
@Daniel Yup. My original, and apparently unclear, query was with respect to c).
‭ А  0410       CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER A
19:05
@tchrist Worse and worse. Oblivion.
@terdon Let's institute a pidgin.
@terdon Constructed so as not to allow ambiguity.
Esperanto?
Once upon a time, there was a verb tacan meaning “to take”. When we spelled out its letters one by one, the second letter (and the second-to-last) was pronounced /ɑ:/, so it “said its own name”. Now because of the GVS, the second letter in take is pronounced /eɪ/, with that letter continuing to “say it own name”. Nothing has changed in that regard.
@terdon I'm not familiar enough with it. It would have to be largely English or I would resign from the board.
@Daniel Done!
@terdon I mean based on English. Recognizable.
19:11
@Daniel Ah, that would be fun :)
I think Tom is trying to say that the scenario I was talking about never actually happened in English.
This is why I was not going to follow the wild geese.
@tchrist OK, so the names changed with the pronunciation then.
@terdon So from the outside, it would look like English, but between speakers who understood the redesigned meanings, there would be significantly reduced ambiguity.
@Daniel I remember a language like that described in a scifi book but forget which.
19:13
@terdon If you lík.
I do, I do.
@tchrist You would not even allow me to explain it.
Doas ðu?
But no matter.
I didn’t stop you.
I just didn’t understand.
19:15
@tchrist So A's name used to be pronounced as a in modern cat?
And I will not just nod my head to say “yes” to something I was not following and understanding.
@Daniel No. Like in Khan.
@tchrist nods in agreement
OE had its own letter for the CAT sound, which was the same as the IPA for that sound.
@tchrist So they would say ah (sorry, rough on IPA), bee, cee, etc?
@Daniel Yes.
19:17
@tchrist That sounds like Spanish, then. I don't know Spanish, but I've heard the alphabet recited.
OE alphabet was: a	æ	b	c	d	ð	e	f	ᵹ/g	h	i	l	m	n	o	p	r	s/ſ	t	þ	u	ƿ/w	x	y
@tchrist I asked yes or no.
You were not being a good Glaucon!
But I have to go again. I still find Terdon's question interesting, even if he bit off more than he anticipated...
@tchrist Is that how they'd recite it?
@Daniel Exactly correct. All vowels had their Latin values.
@Cerberus Pretty much always the case whenever you two are around. I tend to have an IPA chart and wikipedia open on another tab just so I can follow :)
19:19
Except for æ which was /æ/ as in modern CAT.
One of these days, we're going to talk about biology and then I'll bury you with jargon instead.
@terdon Haha I know you are exaggerating.
And y which was /y/ and is not a sound in modern English.
Though Tom will probably know most of it since he works in or around the field.
Bio-what?
Later!
19:20
pffft
Nick.
Who?
Lee Majors, the bionicked man.
@tchrist Ah, ok.
@tchrist I assume blatant ignorance.
My assent was toward the conversationally locative attribute of "Nick".
I say that, and I'm not sure "conversationally" should be an adverb.
Better an adverb than a verb.
19:27
@terdon You have more rep here than on Biology.
Maybe it's easier to get here.
@Daniel Of course.
19:40
@Daniel Well, yes, but I am not an expert here while I am there (I'm a biologist by profession). Also, biology is still in beta and far less active. Much harder to get rep.
@terdon
0
Q: Can anyone remind me of the name for the inter-scapular space on the back?

MichaelIt's one of those names which are often said not to exist, like philtrum. Thanks

Perhaps biologist isn't anatomist.
It most certainly isn't. I have absolutely no idea what that is.
The question would be on topic on biology though.
@Daniel Shit, I missed you. Jasper here, lol.
@AndrewLeach That's one for @medica.
Yes: but it really isn't an ELU question.
19:46
No.
Huh, Daniel made me realize that of the sites I spend most of my time here on, I have the lowest rep on the only one on whose subject I am actually an expert rather than, at best, an informed amateur. Such is life.
Such are our Internet personalities.
It is the same for me on History.SE and Philosophy.SE.
My range is probably about right.
OMG you are so consistent!
Relative to each other, not to anyone else.
That seemed the only reasonably interpretation.
19:53
I do not consider myself an expert in any subject, lol.
Because, is it "right" to have the same disproportion as the others? I don't think so.
Neither do I, lol.
I do, however, have a bag of crisps!
Woo. The ELU answer to that biology question has gained an upvote on Biology.
20:09
Heh, I think that has happened once before.
@WillHunting I'm an expert on the subject of my PhD thesis. I have to be, there are only about 4 people in the world who have worked on the exact same thing. I'm an expert by default.
@terdon Care to share the topic?
Well, I suppose we really should Bowdlerize Congress to remove the offence.
A fun question.
The comment answers it adequately.
14
Q: Meaning of “But I repeat myself” in Mark Twain's quote?

Yoichi OishiThere is the following sentence in the conversation between Florentyna Rosnovski, the heroine of Jeffrey Archer’s novel, The Prodigal Daughter, who was first elected as the Congressman of Illinois and her husband, Richard Kane, Chairman of a New York bank. She captured the Ninth District of ...

Oops.
20:25
@WillHunting In silico identification of selenoproteins and their comparative evolution in eukaryotic species.
Who assesses a PhD thesis when there are so few experts in its field?
@AndrewLeach Well, there are experts in the larger fields of which my subject is a subset. They are perfectly capable of judging.
I would know more about the specific details involved with studying that particular family of genes but the members of my jury knew a hell of a lot more about gene families, their identification and evolution in general.
Are you a protistologist?
Since when has ER2 — or ER1 for that matter — ever spelled her name without a z in it?
Except one of them who was one of the other experts and had 30 years experience over me. He knew more than I about all of it :)
@IceBoy Nope. Computational biologist.
20:31
First it was witch-hunts, then fox-hunts, and now it’s z-hunts. This never turns out well for anyone.
@terdon Do you study a lot of statistics and probability?
@tchrist Even the Vivats at the Coronation used z in Regina Elizabetha.
@IceBoy Not if I can help it but more than I would like.
I am feeling very restless...
@tchrist I don't think II ever has? Has she?
20:44
@terdon I think your math question would be more quickly answered at cross validation
Just a suggestion :)
21:01
@IceBoy Yes, (presumably) your upvote reminded me. I might ask for migration, thanks.
@terdon Remember to bring your passport.
21:19
Always!
@Arrowfar Nice pic. I am bored.
user116848
@WillHunting Thanks :)
@Arrowfar I am thinking of what pic to change to...
user116848
@WillHunting You can pick any nice pic from the google. There are plenty.
user116848
You can change it to some nice cartoon or a scenery.
21:29
@Arrowfar Yes, I know, lol. I am thinking of using another colour for my monochromatic square, lol.
user116848
I see :-)
0
Q: 1.1 = millions of dollars?

C FairweatherThe question arises when, perhaps, taking about 1.1 million dollars. Could one say millions of dollars since it's greater than one. Just like we would say, "one dollar," but we would say, "1.1 dollars." Any insight?

I’m thinking how to construct and write numbers in English must surely be General Reference. This isn’t even like a six-foot man for a *six-feet man. Or is it?
You don’t make the unit plural.
One might have a couple of three-room houses, but never any *three-rooms houses.
Same with hundreds and thousands and millions and billions and billions and billions: you can’t have four hundreds of something; if you have four hundreds, you have four Ben Franklins in your pocket.
In other words, it has to be a different kind of thing than a regular number.
Five centurions could bring their five hundreds to the battle, but that is different.
Anyway, I am trying to find a dupe.
6
Q: Are units in English singular or plural?

MohsenI am a little bit confused about using units in English, sometimes I hear that people use singular units for plural things, sometimes they use plural ones. Which one is correct? 3 meter(s) long? during a 2 week(s) period? 0.5 dollar(s)

5
Q: Are monetary values plural?

MrHen Possible Duplicate: Are units in English singular or plural? I want to say: Those sixty dollars are gone That sixty dollars is gone The reason I ask is because I was originally typing: Those $60 are gone But that looks funny to me. Which is more correct?

21:46
Where a noun is used as an adjective, it's an adjective. Adjectives are not inflected for number.
Heh.
Only determiners. :)
Move along: these millions are not the adjectives you are looking for.
It's what happens in "six-foot man". Numbers behave oddly, probably because they are numbers.
[Hmph. My next-door neightbour's burglar alarm is likely to be whining away all night.]
Numbers behave like, well numbers :)
Most modern grammars consider numbers to be in their own classification.
@AndrewLeach Maybe there is a burglar inside.
@IceBoy You omitted a comma there.
21:50
why?
I wanted a pause
Well drinks.
@IceBoy Shouldn't there be a comma after well too?
@WillHunting In your sentence, yes.
commas don't have rules
Anyway I have given up on punctuation long ago LOL
21:51
But rules, they can have commas.
After all, my question on punctuation was CLOSED
@tchrist comma splice?
@IceBoy No, topicalization.
Or apposition.
:)
is there a semicolon splice?
No. Because that’s what it is for: joining two independent clauses.
By people who consider the use of a period a sign of moral failure.
21:56
All in moderation.
I see, the phrase "semicolon splice" is used to describe the semicolon: In English, the semicolon splice conveys a closer relationship between two clauses than a period does.
Oh, you’re one of Them.
It is not a mistake like the comma splice.
No, I mean both independent clauses you capitalized, as though the colon were a full stop. I used to get my knuckles rapped for that.
Finally gave up arguing.
Variety is the slice of life.
22:00
See my quote on the starboard.
No more peeps from that one came.
2 days ago, by tchrist
The day may yet come when an older, wiser, and more widely read version of your brain shall regard these our days as a tenebrous tomb where its grammatic myopia taunted and troubled it like some blindered and claustrophobic steed who had itself by its own confusion become trapped in the corset of an evertightening stall of its own delusion while the infinite fields of undiscovered country uncountably many beckoned it to fly free of fetters and roam whithersoever whim should take it.
@tchrist this^ one?
Yes.
This was closed for the wrong reason. I have voted to re-open:
1
Q: Should I use "a" or "an" before an adjective?

l0okyWhat's the rule for using a/an before an adjective? I am asking this question because my high school professor is teaching us that we shouldn't use a/an before an adjective. With some 'exceptions' like "Picasso was a famous painter." Now that sounds very strange to me because I am used to say...

user116848
Very difficult words in that paragraph :D
@Arrowfar That, my good sir, is not a paragraph. It is a sentence.
It merely resembles a paragraph in length. :)
Indeed.
user116848
22:04
@tchrist I see. Seems difficult to read :)
It said what I wanted it to say and how I wanted it said. You simply need to take a deeper breath before reading it than your parser might be accustomed to. It is always wise to pre-allocate extra stack space when parsing me.
Which word didn’t you know?
Anyway, he was complaining about Shakespeare, so I had to get in the obligatory Shakespeare reference.
user116848
Like these: " tenebrous" "whithersoever "
user116848
But a good sentence.
Tenebrous goes with tomb.
Whithersoever is long but trivial.
user116848
Thanks!
22:09
To wherever.
But a bit more compact and emphatic.
If you know its bits, whithersoever is no harder than evertightening.
Both are longer words made up of smaller pieces.
The author needs to write at the level of his intended audience also.
This chap was picking on Shakespeare’s diction.
That means he was obviously in there eyes wide open.
No kid gloves needed nor provided.
bare knuckles?
If he is reading Shakespeare, he can handle breath-taking sentences. :)
True.
But that is like teaching kids geometry from Euclid's Elements.
22:15
In English or Ancient Greek?
English.
That’s not so bad then, eh?
Unless the kids were from Greece.
I’d still use Euclid’s proof on the infinity of primes to teach children with. It is as clear and fresh as on the day it was devised.
It is still used today.
22:18
I know none better.
It is a model.
@KitFox i noticed that you had the first coment on the new "Manley" ASMR video from Ephemeral Rift
posted on October 04, 2014 by sgdi

Tuesday is a day of such woe The day that you stub your big toe The pain will be horrid Your expletives florid And so loud that everyone knows

@JSBձոգչ I don't know.
what knowst not thou?
He sounds a bit...like a scary gay guy who is going to try and make you perform inappropriate acts...
The leather and rubber accessories notwith...never mind.
He does have a point that all the feminine lipsticks and purse thingies in other videos are boring.
22:58
@Cerberus that's part of the point. it's ironic.
@JSBձոգչ Hmm I wasn't sure how many layers were ironic.
Not that it really matters.
It's not a bad ASMR video.
The Youtube comments are mostly pathetic.
@Cerberus indeed
a lot of the ASMR community seems to be irony-deficient
Haha.
You mean, a lot of humanity.
The PCness is icky.
And I think harmful.
i dunno, most of the places i hang out wouldn't have passed on that
Like which?
People in my circles wouldn't either.
But humanity at large is hysterical.
In other news:
> Computer Bilde, a German site, put up a video showing the new iPhone bending and reporting on it. That's when they received a call from a local Apple guy.

The German PR department of the company reacts in a disturbing way: Instead of answering the questions about why the iPhone 6 Plus is so sensitive, a manager called COMPUTER BILD and told us, that COMPUTER BILD will not get any testing devices and no invites to official events any more.
00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

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