English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

medica

00:00

It got two upvotes, too.

tchrist

@medica Your first sentence has a surfeit of words.

Canada has a health-care system. Period.

We do not.

medica

I mean, there are few of us (I agree) who like third news' answers.

tchrist

I prefer the British whore's definition of 'gentleman' when she was testifying at trial. QC: And what was your impression of the 'customer's demeanor? BW:'e behaved very well. I could tell 'e was a gentleman'. QC: And how did you know that he was a gentleman? BW: Well, when 'e was gettin' dressed to leave 'e put 'is socks on before 'is trousers. — user3847 Jun 12 at 21:58

I predict that this user shan’t last long with us.

medica

It's just ugly.

I hope that's true.

I hate the way people (so many red-blooded Americans, anyway) think we have the best system of medical care in the world.

Can't they at least see Canada's?

They are our neighbor!

tchrist

@medica best == dearest, apparently

Cerberus

00:03

@medica Umm would think that?

I have never heard any Americans claim that.

I have, however, heard a Canadian guy claim that the American system was best.

medica

They needn't look too far across the pond, either, to see how much it sucks.

tchrist

@medica What pond?

Cerberus

Lake Michigan.

medica

The Atlantic

Lake Erie.

Most docs will admit readily that the system is broken... even those who rake it in.

Cerberus

Yes, that is my impression.

Like the other doc in this room.

medica

00:07

There's another doc in this room?

Cerberus

Yes, but I haven't seen him in a while.

medica

oh, you mean David M.?

He's been gone a long time.

Cerberus

Yes! David.

medica

I wonder if he's coming back. He worked enthusiastically to get past 10K, then quietly disappeared.

Didn't even stick out the 100 day badge.

Cerberus

I think there was a period when he had a lot of time off.

medica

00:09

could be.

(Maybe his wife was pregnant?) Does he have kids, do you know?

tchrist

@Cerberus Lake Michigan separates Wisconsin from Michigan. Lake Superior separates Wisconsin from Canada.

Cerberus

@medica Yes, he has kids.

@tchrist Oh, well, some exotic lake...

medica

hmm. then I don't have a clue why he has not returned. Maybe it is too addictive, or was.

tchrist

@Cerberus You’re calling the largest freshwater lake in the world just some exotic lake? Time to dredge up that insular moniker again.

Cerberus

I thought that was Lake Victoria by area, or Lake Baikal by volume?

medica

00:14

omg, the great dunes national park... so beautiful

Lake Superior is the largest freshwater lake in the world in area (if Lakes Michigan and Huron are taken separately; see Lake Michigan–Huron), and the third largest in volume, behind Lake Baikal in Siberia and Lake Tanganyika in East Africa. - wiki

tchrist

Exactly.

medica

I just saw Lake Michigan for the first time last year. I was very surprised. Wouldn't mind living on it, it was so beautiful.

@tchrist Have you flagged any of his comments?

tchrist

@medica Maybeeeeeee.

Cerberus

@medica Hey, I have to have some kind of excuse for getting geography wrong!

medica

:-)

tchrist

00:21

He’ll always talk down to you because you’re a woman, you know.

skullpatrol

but it cancels with me because I will always talk up to her :-)

medica

hahaha! :-D

skullpatrol

a*(1/a) = 1

medica

@tchrist I do know.

@skullpatrol ooooooh!

tchrist

Never kick a man when he’s down on his knees; best wait for him to stand up first.

2

medica

00:24

Then it's only a kick to the shins...

tchrist

@Reg english.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/73093

Kabir101

Hello Everyone

medica

@Kabir101 Hi

skullpatrol

hi

Kabir101

How are you guys doing?

skullpatrol

00:35

fine thanks, how are you?

medica

it's quiet...

Kabir101

I am well Thanks.

I have been drifting over the internet and have come across a sentence where I got confused.

Can you try to put your thoughts over the statement?

skullpatrol

askaway

Kabir101

"The health of the eye seems to demand a horizon. We never tired, so long as we can see far enough."

It's a quote.

This statement is grammatical, I understand. However, when I tried to change the singular noun 'eye' to 'Eyes' plural, I got confused.

medica

@Kabir101 This doesn't sound like a native English quote. Is it?

Kabir101

00:41

Let me find that. I am not sure yet.

skullpatrol

The health of the eyes seem to demand a horizon.

Kabir101

No, he was a native English speaker. he was born in Boston, Massachusetts, United States.

medica

We never tired is past tense, so long as we can see far enough is present and future.

tchrist

@medica Not future, just non-past.

Alraxite

The actual quote has an are.

We are never tired

tchrist

00:43

Ahah.

That makes the tenses match. Better.

medica

@tchrist true.

Kabir101

@Alraxite: you are right. I just noticed. We are never tried. Thanks

Robusto

@tchrist Ain't no tenses about it. Tired is an adjective in that sentence.

Kabir101

"Do you think, "we are never tried" is the right sentence?

Cerberus

A participle-adjective.

medica

00:46

yes

tchrist

@Robusto I meant that are makes it work.

Kabir101

I dont think we need "are" there.

medica

I do...

skullpatrol

me too...

tchrist

@Kabir101 Then you’d have to change can to could.

medica

00:47

otherwise we never tired sounds like a verb phrase

tchrist

Not just sounds like.

Is.

medica

(picky picky)

is.

skullpatrol

not just is
I.S.

medica

hahaha

skullpatrol

:D

tchrist

00:49

How . . . Clintonian.

Kabir101

@tchrist: If I use it without an "are". "The health of the eye seems to demand a horizon. We never tired, so long as we could see far enough." Is that what you mean?

tchrist

Yes, but understand that you’ve just now placed the entire second sentence in some sort of historical past.

Kabir101

Ok

tchrist

We never tired means the same thing as We never did tire insofar as it is a past tense inflection.

Kabir101

Now, one more question on the same statement.

When I try to change the singular noun 'eye' to 'Eyes' plural, I get confused. My question is to "seems'.

skullpatrol

00:53

10 mins ago, by skullpatrol

The health of the eyes seem to demand a horizon.

tchrist

What is the subject that governs the verb?

The subject is health, not eyes.

Kabir101

Seems is used with "health" or with "eye"

tchrist

Immaterial.

Kabir101

Yeah, @tchrist you got my question.

Thanks

tchrist

The subject of the sentence is health.

The verb of the sentence is seems.

Nothing else matters.

Kabir101

00:54

Correct

and health is a singular noun.

tchrist

Why would changing eye to eyes change anything? It is not the subject.

However, the original formulation reads better.

Kabir101

Got it

skullpatrol

if you got it, explain the meaning of the passage

Kabir101

@skullpatrol: Do you really want me to explain, what I have understood out of the statement?

skullpatrol

sure

that's how you learn :-)

Kabir101

01:03

The health (subject-singular noun) of the eyes seems(singular verb) to demand a horizon. We are never tired (if you take away the "are" it will become a verb phrase). So long as we can see far enough.

The confusion was in identifying the noun (subject). When I read it first, I thought "eye" is the subject.

medica

(Scientifically, having eyes oriented toward viewing the horizon is indicative of being prey. Just a tidbit I learned last night. Cats: vertical slit pupils = predator. Goats: horizontal slit pupils = prey. The orientation of their focus is entirely different. The goat seeks the horizontal obstructions; the cat, the vertical prey. Cool, no?)

If man is happy to focus on the horizon, does that mean we are prey animals?

or does it indicate that we like to focus on the future?

Or both?

(or neither?)

Is it the mind's eye?

Clearly it is not literal.

(Or if it is, beats the hell outta me.)

Cerberus

I think there is more to it...

medica

But Mousie, thou art no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!

Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
On prospects drear!
An’ forward tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear!

Cerberus

> The goat seeks the horizontal obstructions; the cat, the vertical prey

This raises more questions.

medica

interesting ones, I think

Cerberus

01:16

Notice also that the eyes of prey animals are placed farther apart, resulting in a broader field of vision but a smaller area of 3D vision.

medica

I think man focuses on the future. As long as they can imagine a future, they have hope.

That's true, too.

they can see more of the horizon.

Cerberus

It's not specially about the horizon as such.

Alraxite

...

Hmm.

Cerberus

Since we live on a plane, the only dimension in which we can increase our field of view to see more relevant things is that of width.

Alraxite

text...

text . . .

medica

01:19

True, but it's interesting that they focus on the horizon; the horizon is how they escape.

Cerberus

Seeing more things in the air or on the ground is less relevant.

Alraxite

OK. I thought you lose the code font if you end the sentence with ellipsis.

It didn't work for me earlier.

Cerberus

Many prey animals live in places where there is no straight horizon.

Alraxite

a b c....

Cerberus

So I would rather say prey animals have a broader field of view, because they need to spot the unseen, the unexpected, whereas predators care less about animals they failed to spot: instead, they care more about focusing on one thing at a time really well, a prey.

medica

01:20

true...

Cerberus

Birds have a particularly broad field of view.

While the horizon can be useful to spot predators by, as they contrast with the sky on flat land from afar, this is less relevant for birds.

They do not need to spot predators from afar, except other birds, which will rarely be on or near the horizon.

tchrist

Elliptically. . . .

Cerberus

Carnivore birds probably have their eyes closer together (I don't know about the shape of their pupils?).

medica

journalofvision.org/content/13/9/607.short

tchrist

Bird vision

Vision is the most important sense for birds, since good eyesight is essential for safe flight, and this group has a number of adaptations which give visual acuity superior to that of other vertebrate groups; a pigeon has been described as "two eyes with wings". The avian eye resembles that of a reptile, with ciliary muscles that can change the shape of the lens rapidly and to a greater extent than in the mammals. Birds have the largest eyes relative to their size within the animal kingdom, and movement is consequently limited within the eye's bony socket. In addition to the two eyelids us...

medica

01:25

We examined pupil shape in over 200 animals and related it to activity time, foraging
mode, and height. Clear correlations emerged. Round pupils occur in tall or diurnal
predators. Vertical elongation occurs in short, nocturnal predators; these animals
usually have forward-facing eyes and stereovision. Horizontally elongated pupils
occur in prey animals; they tend to have lateral eyes. We argue that vertical pupils
are well suited for using stereopsis to estimate distances of vertical contours and

eeep!

tchrist

Hard to sneak up on pigeon.

Cerberus

@medica Interesting.

@tchrist Exactly.

medica

That's just one paper, but I found several like it.

Cerberus

Humans are probably somewhere in the middle, a bit closer to owls?

tchrist

> The performance of the eye in low light levels depends on the distance between the lens and the retina, and small birds are effectively forced to be diurnal because their eyes are not large enough to give adequate night vision.

Cerberus

01:28

Hmm is that really true?

medica

Yet mammals have solved that problem

Cerberus

We can solve any problem.

We just feed our babies breast milk, done!

tchrist

> Different animals have different fields of view, depending on the placement of the eyes. Humans have an almost 180-degree forward-facing horizontal field of view, while some birds have a complete or nearly complete 360-degree field of view. The vertical range of the field of view in humans is typically around 135 degrees.

medica

The retina of nocturnal animals is almost entirely composed of rods. The other type of vision cells, cones, is absent or almost absent, leaving nocturnal animals with virtually no color vision. The photosensitive pigment inside the rods, rhodopsin, is particularly sensitive to low levels of light. During the day, in a daylight adapted eye, the rhodopsin breaks down so rapidly, it is ineffective for visual perception.

At night-time, in the rod-rich eyes of dark-adapted animals, rhodopsin is created faster than it breaks down. Therefore, the threshold of light needed to stimulate the eye is reduced. It is just a minute fraction of the light needed to activate a cone cell for vision during the day.

Cerberus

@tchrist Just as I thought.

medica

01:30

... the tapetum lucidum (meaning "bright carpet"), an adaptation for night vision. The tapetum is a thick reflective membrane, 15 cells wide, directly beneath the retina. It collects and re-emits light back to the retina a second time, giving the rods a second chance to absorb the image information, thus maximizing the little light available to them. As this light is reflected off the tapetum, the animal's eyes appear to glow.

this is how mammals solved it.

tchrist

Virtually all mammals have only two kinds of cones, because we passed through an evolutionary needle-eye in which we were all tiny nocturnal critters who had no need of tetrachromacy.

> The range of visual abilities is not uniform across a field of view, and varies from animal to animal. For example, binocular vision, which is important for depth perception, covers only 114 degrees (horizontally) of the field of vision in humans;[2] the remaining peripheral 60-70 degrees have no binocular vision (because only one eye can see those parts of the field of view). Some birds have a scant 10 or 20 degrees of binocular vision.

Cerberus

@medica We're smart. By the way, you can post a long text in one line by adding shift-enter anywhere in your text.

medica

oh, thanks!

tchrist

> . In addition to these muscles, some birds also have a second set, Crampton’s muscles, that can change the shape of the cornea, thus giving birds a greater range of accommodation than is possible for mammals.

Cerberus

@tchrist ...and the corners of our eyes are very imprecise, whereas the "yellow spot" in the centre is very precise.

tchrist

01:33

@Cerberus You can only read a few degrees wide. That’s all that counts.

Cerberus

You nocturnal critter.

tchrist

No rods in the human foveola.

Cerberus

@tchrist How will you find your book, then?

medica

The spot in the center (the macula) is cone dense. The rods are better at night.

tchrist

Lots in the periphery.

medica

01:34

yep.

tchrist

@Cerberus Can’t read in the dark.

> Rods are more sensitive to light, but give no colour information, whereas the less sensitive cones enable colour vision. In diurnal birds, 80% of the receptors may be cones (90% in some swifts) whereas nocturnal owls have almost all rods.

medica

that's why older people complain about their night vision.

tchrist

> In 54% of birds, including birds of prey, kingfishers, hummingbirds and swallows, there is second fovea for enhanced sideways viewing.

Cerberus

If your vision were limited to your macula, you would be unable to locate the book you wanted to read.

tchrist

@medica Don’t. Get. Me. Started.

medica

01:35

.........eeep!

Cerberus

Light is cheap.

medica

(solution!)

Mitch

Old people complain about their night vision because... Old people complain.

tchrist

@Cerberus Um, no.

Cerberus

Haha.

medica

01:36

@Mitch hahahaha

tchrist

That isn’t the point, at all.

Mitch

Hahahaha.. Shit I'm old

tchrist

The older you get, the less you can see in the dark and the longer it takes for you to become night-adapted (don’t make me use big words).

Cerberus

tchrist

Which means that when driving at night, you can’t see diddly squat.

medica

01:37

yes, because we lose rods and cones...

Cerberus

Ah, driving.

Mitch

I've seen diddly. It's not as impressive as you think.

Cerberus

Take the train!

tchrist

And those long lovely walks at night through the forest down to the lake become something of children’s nightmares.

medica

but if you use your peripheral vision, just off the center, you "see" much better.

Mitch

01:38

Bus for the win!

Cerberus

Contacts also make you see less clearly in the dark. I think it is because something changed about the refraction of (bright) lights.

medica

@tchrist I live in the woods. Summer is hard. I can't see at night to walk the dogs.

Cerberus

@medica Yes, I have noticed this.

Mitch

That's why they're always looking sideways at you.

tchrist

@Cerberus I am going to banish you to one of our national wilderness areas and make you walk out of it. You just cannot think outside your infernal conurbation!

medica

01:38

but looking off to the side helps me a lot.

Cerberus

@tchrist We have fires everywhere! No need for darkness!

Why waste the light when people are being tortured?

Mitch

Summer should be better right with the light out late.

tchrist

-1

A: What is the meaning of the phrase "Land Sakes"?

to MT_Head-If the deity can't see our motives then what's the point? Is that the question? Perhaps it is only by God's Grace that we see and understand our own motives at all. We are separated from the animals only because we reason. Pascal, I'm sure, would wager his genius that we are the bet...

medica

ummm...

some people evangelize. all. the. time.

tchrist

I am so sick and tired of having to protect every damned question from these spammers!!

We should just protect all of ELU, damn their eyes!

medica

01:41

lock it!

tchrist

I’ve protected close to 450 questions, and there is no end to these people.

Mitch

They probably think they're answering the question directly

medica

they do, trust me.

everything is about God. Everything.

Cerberus

Close the site!

medica

Amen, Brother! Preach it!

Some of my best friends are women and are also misogynists, but their attitude is more visceral--mine is an academic belief system supplemented by experience. But I like Mari-Lou. — user3847 1 hour ago

Cerberus

01:43

Thank you for recognizing my divine status.

medica

you're welcome.

Cerberus

@medica Haha, definitely nuts.

And he likes Mari-Lou, of all people. I mean, she is a bit of a feminist sometimes, if I remember correctly. I don't mean that as "who would like Mari-Lou!" but as "what misogynist would like Mari-Lou!".

Mitch

I know right?

medica

I don't care for him.

Cerberus

What was your first line?

I need to be a room owner, so I can see deleted lines.

Oh, funny.

medica

01:47

@Cerberus a stupid mysogynist.

Cerberus

A failed misogynist.

Robusto

@Cerberus I can't see deletions. Only mods can, or so I'm told.

Cerberus

It is a contradiction in terms.

medica

in which category he seems to fall... maybe

Cerberus

@Robusto Click the arrow thingy, then "history".

Robusto

01:47

@Cerberus Contradictions are usually in terms.

Cerberus

Are they?

Robusto

@Cerberus So it does. Interesting.

Cerberus

That is basically the only worthy regale that comes with the title.

Robusto

I do enjoy making people pay to use the restroom, though.

Cerberus

(The singular os regalia.)

You make a lovely loo girl, with that apron.

Robusto

01:50

I am no loo girl.

Cerberus

Then why are people paying you?

Are you a fraud??

Robusto

Hey, I'm running a business here. Business is about subterfuge, of a sort. Think of it as magic.

Cerberus

Naturally.

Alraxite

I don't get the room description...

Robusto

Sleight of hand, by which I make coins disappear from your pocket.

tchrist

01:51

@Robusto I knew it! You’re making nuclear weapons!

Cerberus

@Alraxite I think it is rather arbitrary. Or based on some context we didn't see.

Robusto

nuclear -> unclear

Cerberus

Hah.

medica

@tchrist - your new delete tool is working too well. All those examples were deleted within a couple of hours.

tchrist

@Cerberus Help vampires.

Mitch

01:52

There's a room description? I thought we're just ... here.

Alraxite

@Cerberus OK.

Cerberus

@tchrist So...we are the restroom here?

And what is the potential payment?

Mitch

I think you mean "Help! Vampires!"

Cerberus

I don't think they can help you.

tchrist

@medica And miles to go before I sleep.

Cerberus

01:53

Except when you are in need of being sucked.

medica

lovely, dark and deep...

tchrist

@Cerberus Not doing your yoga again, I see.

Cerberus

I knew you would comment on that, but I don't get it.

tchrist

It can be a real bear, I know, especially in Jellystone.

Cerberus

Brain yoga?

Mitch

01:54

@medica the top ten were all me. When I voted to delete they all flipped from "2 delete votes" to "undelete"

medica

good job!

tchrist

@Cerberus You’re a dog: you should know these things.

Cerberus

Ohh that.

I think some animals actually do that.

tchrist

Of course they do.

Mitch

Like your yogi instructor used to say "when you come to a fork in the road, take it"

tchrist

01:56

0

A: Preventative vs. preventive

Not knowing the etymology, I have always instinctively preferred the form 'preventive'. I think it comes from an engineering background that, all else being equal, biases me toward the most fundamental form of anything. I wonder if the form 'preventative' was originally created for dramatic eff...

Is that an answer to the question?

I rather think it is not.

Mitch

It's a crap answer if so

tchrist

It’s not like I disagree with him or something.

But it still is lame.

Alraxite

Well, all he's saying is he likes preventive

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Houdoe.

Alraxite

which is not an answer.

medica

02:00

and I like preventative, right.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 hi

tchrist

’Nuff said.

medica

blushes furiously

wait, that's unamerican!

Mitch

applies blush to match

medica

ah, well, I tried

Alraxite

@tchrist Where are you searching that?

googlefight.com

so this.

tchrist

02:06

@Alraxite À la recherche des mots perdus

medica

money just edged out sex...

tchrist

@medica I can’t make the damned thing stop talking to me in French, but I am pretty sure that Fight! is illegal en France.

Robusto

@tchrist proust -> sprout

medica

:D

L'academie is everywhere

Mitch

opens up half eaten sandwich

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

02:10

@Alraxite I don't even

Mitch

Oh la la!

hichris123

@tchrist So is this an answer that should stay around on your site? I'm not sure.

Alraxite

@tchrist Those numbers don't even agree with what I get on Google

Not to imply that google's numbers are anything to go by

"an HP laptop" sends more results than "an HP"

(with quotes)

tchrist

@medica C’est l’Académie Française.

@hichris123 I don’t think it is an actual answer.

hichris123

@tchrist I'm tempted to flag it as spam, but it's not really... maybe NAA?

medica

02:19

it's gone...

tchrist

@hichris123 I NAA-flagged it.

Robusto

02:44

►

medica

08:29

@AndrewLeach - are you here? Can you hear?

Andrew Leach

I'm at work, so no sound.

medica

have you been looking at flags? (sorry, won't ping.)

Andrew Leach

A few. Why?

Doesn't matter about pinging: my sound's turned off (which is what I meant).

medica

I'm curious. A few flags have been declined just recently, but the comments have disappeared,

ah, ok.

so it seems the flagging was appropriate, but the flags were declined.

If it was you, I thought maybe you could explain why this is happening.

Andrew Leach

If a comment is flagged as offensive but is actually not constructive, it's a close call about how it's dealt with. It also depends (I think; I'm still getting used to it) exactly how the flag is dealt with.

Offensive should really be reserved for direct insults and obviously offensive words.

medica

08:36

I don't understand the ins and outs of how you all judge the merit of a flag. How offensive does it need to be? The guy states he hates women?

He's a card carrying misogynist who "learned from experience". I mean, is that not offensive? What are the site guidelines on offensive language? I thought it was about disrespect.

Andrew Leach

That reflects more on him, and is purely a statement. Offensive would be (for example) using four-letter words to describe women.

medica

That is not what the site's guidelines say.

Andrew Leach

Let me bring it up with other mods to see if I've misinterpreted them.

medica

To me, it is offensive to women.

Do we wait until we are called c**** to be offended?

Should I flag as not constructive instead?

Andrew Leach

I did see that. That was one of the words I would certainly call offensive.

medica

08:41

Clearly the comments were removed.

Andrew Leach

I would recommend not constructive if the comment adds nothing of value.

The guidelines are here: english.stackexchange.com/help/behavior

medica

Can't we be a tiny bit offended before it reaches that point?

Andrew Leach

"Civility is required at all times"

medica

and I hate women is not civil.

Andrew Leach

He's been quite civil in enunciating his position.

medica

08:42

civil? no. Eloquent, perhaps.

If he said he hates gays, is that civil?

Andrew Leach

OK. I'll take this away and bring it up with others to see if I'm being too lenient.

medica

is saying he hates gays civil?

Andrew Leach

I'll take this away and bring it up with others to see if I'm being too lenient

medica

How does it differ?

Seriously. I've been here for 7 months. In that time, I've raised 700+ helpful flags. 27 (? I think) have been declined. Now they're almost all being declined.

I don't know when to flag and when to let it go anymore. And you're saying it's civil as long as he's using no four letter words.

Andrew Leach

I can't speak for others at at the moment. I'll take this away and bring it up with others to see if I'm being too lenient on comments.

medica

08:49

I'm not asking you to speak for the other mods. I want to know what you think civility means.

Johan Larsson

Who is the bad guy?

medica

This user has been spreading ugliness across the site. But because he's enunciating it well, then it's civil?

@JohanLarsson the bitch/bitch guy.

Johan Larsson

ok I never read on main so no idea

Andrew Leach

Civility means being polite. Incivility is not the same as expressing disagreeable opinions. Disagreeable opinions are almost entirely certain to be non-constructive in the context of a question or answer. I'm not going to discuss it further here now. I'll take this away and bring it up with others to see if I'm being too lenient on comments.

Johan Larsson

!!define lenient

Jarvis the Bot

08:56

@JohanLarsson lenient Lax; tolerant of deviation; permissive; not strict.

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