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13:00
@Cerberus OK, I've beaten to death any humor I can get out of that. Maybe I'll try next time and we'll see.
Ehhh...
Never mind.
@Mitch So you remember what it was about?
@KitFox Gigli must have had other interests. She only ever came for a few moments to ask a serious English question.
And does David have knockers?
@Mitch She snapped and attacked me once. I've only seen her a few times since.
@Cerberus I do.
@Cerberus Well, TC was taunting him over being prosyletizing (when DW really wasn't)...
13:01
...ᖹᖹᖹ∃
(and so was understandably upset)
Wha—?
Oh, that.
Oh, there's the story for today. It's up now. Zombie Party
but the others started being even handed about atheism (I'm looking in your direction Kit but not saying anything)...
and he took it the same way. so he left.\
13:03
Nah, that wasn't it.
@Cerberus Ha. Is that freudian slip?
It was the argument over "All-American" that was the last one.
@Mitch And I had no comment about atheism in that discussion. I wasn't there for it.
Well, I am pretty sure I wasn't.
@KitFox I think I saw that. She made a judgmental 'remark'.
Yeah, just jumped into chat to tell me I was a whore or something.
Which is ironic, coming from a hypocritical homewrecker.
@KitFox Oh. Right. I now see 'all-american' all over and it's pretty innocuous (in the US)
@KitFox Oh. memory is fallible.
13:05
@Mitch were you thinking about knockers when you said it?
@Mitch I think it was not long after that argument though, which might have contributed to his rage.
@MattЭллен Any answer I give will be incriminating. "No officer, I wasn't thinking about that word exactly, but...'
@Mitch Right, sir. If you'll just come with us. We've got a place for people like you
@KitFox it was all in the same few days I think.
@MattЭллен please please please let it be Miami
@KitFox I never caught that.
@Mitch sticks Miami sticker over the "welcome to Coventry" sign
13:09
Oops, never mind.
Coventry is known for its buxom women? Excellent!
@KitFox in the UK?
I forgot there's more than one.
@KitFox Coventry where then?
13:10
Never you mind.
Back to knockers...
@Mitch I think KitFox is known for her buxom women
I miss kissing buxom women.
@MattЭллен Is she in the UK too?
@Mitch Alas, I don't believe so
13:12
I'm sure there is more than one KitFox.
@Mitch You should know, it was your word.
@KitFox as far as I can tell, they're all aircraft
Like me.
I probably shouldn't have admitted that.
13:18
have you been one of Obama's drones all this time?
Obamammas
Yes.
I mean, no.
Well...what's the right answer?
!! how can I tell truth from lies?
13:39
Start from a place of total confusion. It can only get better after that.
@KitFox All signs point to yes
@KitFox Yes!
Oh look, the fox in sox
Oh now that didn't work right.
Why would it ping me?
Oh, I bet because I edited the comment.
!! what are the chances?
@MattЭллен It means I aint got time to learn your $5 words
13:45
!! How can you say such a thing?
@MattЭллен Indubitably
Stupid fox.
This chocolate is improving my mood, however.
yay!
!! will they come back?
@MattЭллен No
!! Why are you waiting?
13:48
@MattЭллен Doubtfully
@MattЭллен Absolutely not
!! Are we nearly there yet?
@MattЭллен Indeed
@Cerberus Yes, generally. Whole OS updates? No, not usually. But then these things are usually better-tested.
Considering how smooth the OS update from Windows 3.11 to Windows 95 was, and every OS update since then, I'm shocked that MS screwed up the Surface updates. There's, what, 4 variants?!
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Usually, yes, but it's not that rare for updates to mess things up. I've had it happen countless times on Android.
They usually don't make your device unbootable, but they often introduce deliberate limitations and incompatibilities, or just bugs.
Yes, it is quite shocking that they messed so badly.
@Cerberus Yes. But the downside is people never updating, and running with known security bugs.
13:57
!!/info
@KitFox I awoke on Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:43:10 GMT (that's about 15 minutes ago), got invoked 7 times
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Especially for people who are not very good at computer stuff or use bank sites protected by a mere password...
You can also wait for a few weeks before updating, as a compromise.
I often do that with Android applications.
As for Android itself, I usually wait several months, because updates always introduce lots of incompatibilities.
!!/user 6040
simon, Massachusetts
2.2k 3 18 26
For applications, I read the reviews before updating.
13:59
Oh, not chat user.
@Cerberus heh, "always", "lots". I struggle to recall one.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't struggle at all. A recent and very important example: 4.3 made restoring applications totally impossible for many/most users of Titanium Backup.
Another example: 4.2 disabled most banking applications here.
4.1 caused phones to enter a bootloop that had LBE Security installed, the best software of its kind at the time.
14:01
@KitFox can the bot detect what site is associated to the room it's in?
It would be nicer if I could get your parent id.
@Cerberus well, Titanium Backup requires root. As such its functionality is officially unsupported by the OS. If using TB causes something to break, you get to keep both pieces.
All three of these problems I mentioned would have affected me, had I switched to the new OS version immediately.
@MattЭллен Yes, that. I don't know.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what?
14:02
And as for the banking apps, I dunno why they broke. There might be a good reason.
What does it matter what the reason is? The point is that I am glad I didn't update immediately.
@Cerberus So do I have to explain what "unsupported" means? Of course apps that violate the rules will break. Tough.
So what?
I'm not blaming Google.
It's just why I shouldn't and don't update immediately.
It is like buying a lot of new clothes right at the start of your new diet where you plan to lose 20 kg.
The reason matters because if it's the app vendor's fault, then the app vendor should get their act together. Customers demand it. Phones need to be updated.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And how does this concern my update policy? How is this relevant to my choice?
It's not.
14:04
Anyway, whatever. I still believe that 99% of people out there don't know how to update stuff. They need automatic updates in order to stay secure.
It's like getting vaccines.
Yeah, some people are allergic to what's in the vaccine. Like my son. So we have to be careful. But most people need to get vaccinated.
Just say, "yes, Cerberus, your argument about banking apps that stop working after most Android updates is relevant".
All banking apps for all users stop working for some time after each update.
That strikes me as incredibly strange.
They were all fixed eventually, but how long did it take? How long will it take next time?
What are banking apps doing that is so unsupported by the underlying platform?
Who knows?
14:06
Just uninstall that crappy app
It's not trustworthy
It doesn't need to be very trustworthy, it's safe.
It can only transfer money to known accounts, and up to a certain low amount.
But it is terribly convenient.
@Matt I can't find anywhere that they are related. Can you?
@KitFox Oh, I haven't looked. Sorry I'm a bit busy with w**k
And this is just 1 example. I have seen dozens of applications that stopped working properly after Android updates.
I'll have a look later though :)
14:09
So you have to really, really like the Android update to make it worth it for you to upgrade immediately. But I don't think an Android update is that important to most users.
@MattЭллен Oh, don't worry. It's OK.
So I just read up on one banking app's problem: it only allows itself to be installed on a small number of devices.
Therefore, after a factory reset or OS update, it thinks it's on a new device
Then it doesn't work anymore
Frankly, that's pretty asinine
Again, the reason is not relevant: what matters is that you can't transfer money any more.
So I could maybe theoretically grab the chat user info page and pull the parent user from that. But I'm not sure how to get the correct element.
No, the reason is pretty relevant.
14:11
But it's not.
My experience is the same regardless of the reason.
Sure it is. In that case it means you can NEVER update. OR factory reset.
Without calling your bank to manually activate the device.
Huh?
Read what I wrote.
That is not at all true.
14:12
As I said, most applications get fixed eventually.
Well, that is not my bank.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And I bet they fixed that eventually, Barclays.
@Cerberus Who knows? The point is that it's a bank problem. Not a "software update" problem.
So you can postpone your Android update until the Barclays application has been fixed.
You're assuming they lifted this 3-device restriction.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what? I feel you are not addressing my "My experience is the same regardless of the reason.".
You're also ignoring the fact that this bug affects new phone purchases, and factory resets, and downgrades.
14:14
That bug did not affect Dutch banks.
I have never heard of it, even.
And so what if it affects those actions? Then it is also an argument against carrying out those actions, provided that you know in advance.
Look. This argument is pointless. You're still on XP, for crying out loud. I will never convince you. One tiny annoyance is a showstopper to you.
Why can't you just say "you have a point"?
Because I consider the breakage of a small number of badly-written apps to be completely acceptable in maintaining the health of the ecosystem.
I am talking about the choice of an individual user at a specific time, whether or not he should postpone updating. I am not talking about whether or not Google should provide updates. Of course they should.
@Cerberus And I've always said that users who care should have the option to disable automatic updates.
Anyway Android doesn't have automatic OS updates. It just hassles you once a day to update.
14:19
So then you are not saying people are making the wrong choice is they postpone Android updates?
@Cerberus You started this out with the trollish statement "You still think automatic updates are a good idea?" To which I am saying "Yes."
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that is annoying. You have to download a root application to disable the notification.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you agree with the stuff I have been saying for the past 20 minutes?
I'm not saying automatic updates are necessary a bad idea from Microsoft's perspective.
@Cerberus I agree that updates can break things. I disagree that that is typically so important that automatic updates should not be default.
But they can be a bad idea from an individual user's perspective, depending on how that user uses his computer.
@Cerberus yes, and depending on the quality of apps installed, too, I suppose.
14:22
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you talking "should" from the perspective of Microsoft, or from a user like yourself, or like me?
@Cerberus "should" from the perspective of society as a whole.
I have automatic updates turned on for Android apps.
It's completely painless.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's part of it. If you depend on certain applications that may not survive the update, it may be better no to update, and certainly not to update automatically. Same if you cannot tolerate a single afternoon of not being able to use your computer properly.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Several of my favourite applications in Android have lost functionality after an update in the past, or introduced terrible bugs.
The current Swype version has a very bad wake-lock on my phone.
I went back to the previous one.
Buienalarm, the best rain application on the Internet, suddenly no longer had a widget you could use after an update. It tooks months to come back.
That's just two examples off the top of my head.
I do automatically update non-essential applications on Android.
Oh, and many Firefox updates break some things, like add-ons.
@Cerberus I found swype was A) very buggy overall, and B) used some weird app-loading mechanism that didn't go through the store and was extremely annoying. So I uninstalled it. And now the stock keyboard has trace-to-type built-in.
I do not find Swype buggy, it works fine. Yes, the installation mechanism was a pain (but worth it). Now they also have a Play Store application.
@Cerberus That's the add-on's fault. Seriously, who releases an add-on without thinking that Firefox is going to be updated before they finish submitting the add-on to the add-on store? I uninstall add-ons like that. I don't trust them.
14:28
Swype's prediction/correction is still a lot better than that of the default keyboard or Swiftkey.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You seem to gloss over the functionality of add-ons a little too easily. What if the add-on provides a function that saves you a lot of time and frustration, or opens new possibilities?
If SE becomes buggy, will you simply stop using the site immediately?
@Cerberus It has to be super-useful for me to keep it on if the author can't keep it up to date with FF. Having up-to-date FF is important for so many reasons. It's a sign of poor code quality. I uninstall things that have poor code quality if I can.
@Cerberus It depends. cost-benefit analysis. If SE stopped working every time a browser update was released, yeah. I would.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that is certainly a consideration. I wouldn't not-update Firefox for any add-on. But some are Very Important to me, and others I am prepared to postpone updating for. What's the hurry anyway?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What if it stopped working only for a few weeks?
You spend some time on SE arguing with fabulous animals. It would be a pity if they should lack your presence.
@Cerberus If it stopped working for weeks I'd probably stop coming. If it stopped working for a day or two every time FF updated.... I might postpone the updates.
But really I'd probably just skip SE on those days and complain at the SE folks.
How?
how what? how to complain?
or how to skip SE?
14:39
now brown cow?
I've heard it's possible to not come to SE
@MattЭллен Are you excited? Or did you need help with my workings?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How to complain when you can't go to the site!
14:43
@MattЭллен Nooooo!
apparently I stayed away for a whole day!
I really want to tinker with my bot.
frowns
Stupid work.
yeah
stupid work
What is this? Your SE presence?
yes
in October
14:47
@Cerberus Hypothetically there would be some browser that would still work.
Heh.
Not so for Firefox add-ons.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, presumably they are developing with at least one browser.
@MattЭллен Ah, but how would you find that address without accessing the site, hmm?
@Cerberus well, how would I become a member of the site so that I would want to come back and complain when the site is down without access to the site?
14:51
@MattЭллен You'd have to find that address before the site becomes inaccessible for you, so before you have reason to complain.
@Cerberus that implies there is only one reason to complain. I refer you to people who complain about EL&U
they complain when the site is available.
also, I know about the address not because I've wanted to complain, but because I've wanted to help. I found out about it because I was reporting a copyright infringer
But that is no fun.
I wouldn't have know that dress btw.
but now you do!
14:54
Jesus, look how bad my typing is. Shall I leave up uncorrected as a monument to my ineptitude?
:D
Well, we could add it to the collection ;)
Hehe.
not that I can talk
Look who's talking.
14:55
Jinx.
double Jinx
!!/jinx
@KitFox Are you excited? Or did you need help with my workings?
Now I don't know what to say any more.
Damn.
I thought we had that one.
14:55
@Cerberus now you just have to get me a coke
@KitFox I think you added it, it wasn't in the code
Oh, right. Of course.
Have one:
> Your organization's policy prohibits access to websites categorized as Illegal Drugs.
Oh. Do I need a certain rep to post pics in chat?
I'm not allowed that image
@KitSox I don't think so
14:57
Wow. Just wow.
It is a warning graph against cocaine. Your country is very sick.
@Cerberus his workplace. They don't want him learning about illegal drugs or else he might stop taking the ones they're giving him.
How about this one?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That this even happens in a country is sick. And you where they are going with the porn censorship.
@Cerberus Are you trying to get him fired?!
@Cerberus it happens in yours.
Then my country is sick too.
14:59
@Cerberus I can see that
Yay!
It is the same image.
@MattЭллен Are you excited? Or did you need help with my workings?
!!do a dance
@MattЭллен By all means
15:03
@Cerberus I'm not where they're going
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Neither am I.
But poor Matt may be.
By the way, did you hear that the NSA wiretapped 70 million conversations in France within 30 days? I rather think they appropriated the metadata, but still.
Only 1.8 million in Holland, so we're fine.
sounds like a lot
Yeah.
You should be glad you're one of the "five eyes".
Or rather, you shouldn't be, because your government is even less likely to do anything about it.
Our government is doing absolutely nothing, even less than France or Germany.
I don't get what the NSA will gleen from these taps. conincidental networks are just so much rubbish.
I think it is for the most part even useless to them, to their interests.
Although they will also catch lots of commercially valuable information with dragnet surveillance.
Who knows what their government does with it?
15:22
Hunts witches
@MattЭллен Hitches wunts.
@MattЭллен That's why you shouldn't worry about it.
They aren't looking for that.
This is some powerful bbq today.
what are they looking for?
They are looking for specifics, which they can't find if they don't have generics.
specifics about what?
15:29
Think of it like looking for books by a particular author. It's easiest and fastest if you have a card catalog (or whatever thay call it these days).
whatever they are looking for, they will fail using this dragnet approach. I'd rather they stop. Don't they know about global warming?
Well, yes and no. They need the data in order to mine it.
they could be doing useful stuff, like figuring out how to create susatainable power
but they won't find anything.
@MattЭллен That's not their job.
I think it should be. the security of your county is at stake if you don't have sustainable power generation
15:31
@MattЭллен Sure they will, and they have.
@MattЭллен hahaha. That's very noble. I wish it made a difference.
@MattЭллен Yes, you never know what it can be used for.
@KitFox that seems so unlikely as to be untrue, or a statistical blip.
It is known they have used it to investigate certain groups that are critical of their government, like Occupy, but also on the right, I think.
@KitFox Probably a spell on it.
@MattЭллен Those in the known, like Wyden, who is in the intelligence committee, suggest that the NSA has never used the dragnet to come up with information that was really necessary to prevent a terrorist attack. And, no, wiring money to Somalia is not a terrorist attack.
And, no, the info from the dragnet was not essential: they could have found the guy through other means. In fact, I think they did.
15:35
@MattЭллен Well, I suppose they might use phone records to look for the calls, texts, tweets, and cetera made to and from a certain number.
Or you could make a guess at what someone's phone number was if you knew where they lived or frequented.
And then do the same thing.
Or if they moved around a lot, you would need to grab a huge dataset to figure out what their movements were.
(Because you'd need lots of tower pings.)
I suppose likewise if you were trying to locate them.
Personally, I find the endeavour fascinating.
I like to think about how phone information is structured and how you might organize it so that you could generate interesting reports from it.
Terrorism is rare. The information can also be acquired through other means. There exists no proof yet that the dragnet has been actually essential in preventing a real terrorism attack.
True, but there won't be.
Because the gov't doesn't share its methods with everybody.
They do share the supposedly prevented attacks with Wyden, and he says it's bs.
Of course he does.
I don't care what anyone might have told you, Kit Fox has never worked for Knight Industries.
The tide is turning. It will all be drastically limited in a couple a years.
15:45
She has no effective means of monitoring your communications.
There is no way I could possible recognize you from a satellite image.
I feel less safe knowing my and others' governemtns are needlessly watching me. I makes me feel like there should be an uprising to usurp these nosy noras and leave us in peace. Or anarchy, at least.
time to go!
@MattЭллен That's the thing. They aren't really watching you, not any more than a cop in a speed trap is watching you.
You should be more concerned with what corporations are doing than with what your gov't is doing.
Yay but anarchy? That's...harsh.
Jez
Jez
16:14
@KitFox what if they own the government?
Well, then it doesn't matter what you do, so there's no sense in worrying about it.
> Dude, ive been using 8.1 x64 since it leaked months ago. No lag on no games
> Its your rig not the OS...
Stable rig => update => games malfunction on same rig.
Update = bad news.
16:45
@Cerberus Let's be honest though. It's still better than 8.0.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Quite possibly.
But you know my position: I would ideally be using Windows 7 now.
I mean, 8.0 has to be the most disliked Windows version ever
Even more so than Vista?
By the way, I like how people who tested Vista without knowing what they were testing were a lot more positive.
16:54
My husband just asked me about that last night.
It was admittedly in a research project orchestrated by MS.
He said, "I think they forgot about Windows Me."
I didn't specifically dislike ME as I was using it. But I was a kid, and I later concluded that it was somewhat less stable than e.g. 98.
@KitFox Yeah but when Windows ME shipped there was an alternative to choose from.
So, yeah, maybe it was really disliked. But most people were switching to Windows 2000 or sticking with 98.
True, true. But I thought it was funny.
I stuck with 98 myself.
Built on the NT platform.
iirc
16:56
@KitFox yeah. I suppose ME might have been even more hated than Vista or 8.
I kept 98 for ages before switching to XP.
no, 98 and ME were the same platform
Are you sure?
@KitFox 100% sure
95-98-ME, NT 3.51,->NT4->2000->XP
OK. I was thinking of XP then.
I guess.
16:57
Windows 2000 was the one that said "Built with Microsoft NT technology" on its start screen
What's the difference between commas and arrows?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. Maybe I did use 2000 then. I could have sworn I was on 98 until I switched to XP.
@Cerberus oops
95->98->ME, NT 3.51->NT4->2000->XP
that's how it should read. Two family trees
Ah OK.
That makes more sense.

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