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16:00
@MrHen we don't need the whole IPA though. Lots of things in IPA aren't needed or even possible in standard English spelling. You'd have to get everyone to agree on what vowel sounds go in what words, for example.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It wasn't a serious suggestion.
@MrHen w, y could be done Latin style with u and i.
@MrHen c is redundant as s or k but not in ch.
@Mitch hmm, on seconds thought, perhaps it's better to use it sparingly, so that it retains its mystix
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "ch" could be spelled "tsh"
16:01
*tcsh*(1)
ch could be spelt x
The point being you could move spellings around a whole lot and get things to mostly work out.
@MrHen but it's half-way to where I'm going with this: it would be nice if we had letters for all the consonant sounds with no overlap.
@MattЭллен xxxx xxx, xxxxxxx and your little dog too. And Man U.
16:01
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I disagree. "Nice" isn't the same thing as a small set of letters.
two birds. one xtone.
The point earlier about their/they're is more or less the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. Homonyms key in on spelling differences.
So unless you want to merge things you're SOL.
Pox/pocks is an example of why "X" is not redundant.
Lox/locks/lochs, etc.
homonyms don't matter that much. otherwise spoken language would be unintelligible if we used one.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "Don't matter much" isn't the same thing as "redundant." ;)
there/their could be merged for all I care; they're is a contraction and shouldn't be merged.
16:05
ha, I drew something beautiful in CAD. Think it is the first time ever.
That's why I asked whether you were just talking about sounds.
@JohanLarsson ha, 'grats.
ty ty :D
!!/refresh
@MrHen Nah, I still think it's redundant. Just because in cases where you have zero context whatsoever you can pin down the meaning of lox vs locks doesn't really make the case. You still can't pin down the meaning of locks(the things you put keys into) vs locks(the things that raise/lower boats on rivers). One more/fewer meaning to pin to a particular spelling makes little difference.
!!/define annoying
16:08
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It isn't one more/fewer meanings. It would merge hundreds of thousands of words.
Anyway I disagree that tsh could replace ch.
Oi! @KitSox! What's wrong with you?
@KitFox annoying Causing irritation or annoyance; troublesome; vexatious.
That's you, my friend.
!!> var s = ""; var a = $; for(var b in a) { s += b.toString() + " "; } s;
16:08
@MrHen "ReferenceError: $ is not defined"
Hm, no jQuery, eh?
There is.
@MrHen getting rid of X wouldn't merge hundreds of thousands of words.
!!/help jQuery
@KitFox jQuery: Fetches documentation link from jQuery API. /jquery what
16:09
Oh. There isn't.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am talking about eliminating duplicate sound-spellings.
I'd use FoxInSox, but there already is one, I think.
Just because X is on the smaller side doesn't make it any better of a principle.
@MrHen Anyway other languages have spellings that are way more phonetic and it isn't a problem for reading comprehension.
like, Korean.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure but that doesn't mean it would work well in English.
The question isn't really whether we can get away with it; of course we could.
Humans are flexible.
The question is whether it would provide any usefulness.
But to answer your original question, yeah, you could probably replace all of the "X" sounds with other letters.
My stances is that you wouldn't want to.
16:13
@MrHen Well, I contend that it would, in that spelling being hard-to-learn makes it harder for people to write stuff. Whether it would be worth the cost NOW that reading/writing are so widespread and nobody can agree on any of it? I'd say no. But in principle, I think it would be beneficial if spelling were more predictable.
ARRRGHH!!
At one extreme example of spelling reform is China: the written language is so complicated that educated people often cannot spell common words. At the other extreme is Korea, which relatively recently switched to a phonetic alphabet.
brb
@KitFox no trepanning in chat
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 where...difficult words can be spelled by even those who can't read?
This whole deployment is a fucking nightmare.
And these users...goddamn, if it breaks once, it's probably going to break the next five times that you try it.
And somewhere I apparently got rid of my custom error page.
sighs
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, that's the debate, isn't it? ;)
16:24
I think generally spelling moves toward being more predictable, dunnit?
Think about the relative acceptability of 'thru', for instance.
'nite' and 'lite' etc.
@KitFox And all those silent b's?
Personally, I think "x" is easier to remember than "eks" or somesuch.
What silent bs?
27
A: Is the "-b" to be pronounced in the word "limb"? What about "thumb"? "Crumb"?

MrHenAll of the words you provide (limb, thumb, crumb) are listed in my local dictionary without a b sound. Things seem basically the same with suffixes (i.e. thumbed has no b sound). Crumbled is is a completely different word and receives the pronunciation typical for "mble": thimble, tremble, fumbl...

You don't pronounce those?
I pronounce "mb" ;)
16:26
@MrHen Right, like 'pix' and 'tix' and 'stix'.
I tremble. They're gonna eat me alive.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Hear, hear!
@KitFox I still haven't decided if I like that song. I really want to like it...
Yeah.
It's on my kids' car mix.
@KitFox Yeah. IMO, droping a three letter sound (trigraph? what's the right word for that?) is a better move.
16:28
I have no idea. I was just trying to help.
Plus, something like Texas becomes... what? Teckses?
English just doesn't work like that.
What? Why?
Why would you get rid of x?
38 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇
hey. so do we need the letter X in english? is it completely redundant?
The problem is that dropping extra letters next to each other can create really bizarre reactions in English.
Mixture -> Micksture -> M-ih-ck-st-oo-r instead of M-ih-cks-ch-uh-r
It doesn't matter if it is redundant. Keep X and dump cks then. That's more sensible.
@KitFox Ducks -> Dux?
I like it.
It would make pluralization fun.
One duck; two dux.
Three duxes.
!!> var s = ""; var a = bot; for(var b in a) { s += b.toString() + " "; } s;
Anonymous
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It could. I don't know that it would do a lot of good.
!! You don't seem to be very reliable. :P
Anonymous
@MrHen Initial X confuses people. Xavier, Xylophone
@MrHen I'm not. My owner is kind of dumb about how this stuff works.
16:40
@KitSox I guess I can't argue with that.
@KitSox Work so I can break you!
I'm trying! I don't know what's wrong with me!
!!/refresh
What's the symptom?
Hey, how do I get the console for Chrome?
@KitFox Try F12
16:42
Oh. Yeah. Duh.
(Which, by the way, is what I used to work on... but for the new IE version.)
@MrHen That is because English sometimes uses two letters when only one is needed, and sometimes uses two because two are needed. Or because of the lack of vowel letters, thus causing us to need to add spurious consonants to disambiguate which vowel sound is used.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And that's another reason we need X.
and other "redundant" sounds
because they alter word pronunciation
which comes back to the fundamental problem: if you want to change one thing you end up having to rework the entire language
and as long as you are doing that, you may as well pick up Esperanto.
or any other language explicitly designed for this kind of thing
@MrHen actually X, in some cases, doesn't follow the rules. faxes doesn't have the same vowel as fakes.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That was basically my point. :P
16:46
fackses
@MrHen No, you don't need to rework the language. Just the spelling. Spelling is just representation.
It follows the rules for X.
@MrHen But it doesn't provide anything that couldn't be easily achieved without it. fakses.
Just replace x with ks .
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I guess I don't consider spelling separate from the language. It's still English.
@MrHen well, it's one thing to agree to spell "box" as "boks" from now on, it's completely separate to switch to Esperanto.
16:48
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't understand. You said X doesn't follow the rules; now you are saying it can be replaced by things that do follow the rules?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The point being that, pragmatically, you are changing how the entire language. Once you go down that road it isn't English anymore.
Whoop, got to go.
I like words with x! Get rid of ks, I say!
!!/define x
@MrHen yes. The rule I'm referring to is the vowel sound rule: typically vowel-consonant-E uses a "long" vowel, that is, the vowel sound that sounds like the letter's name.
eg the A in bakes.
@KitFox x The twenty-fourth letter of the basic modern Latin alphabet.
but words that use vowel-X-e don't obey that rule. However, if you replace the X with two consonants: KS, then you get a word that now DOES obey the rule.
!!What was your problem earlier?
16:50
@KitFox Are you excited? Or did you need help with my workings?
anyway, lunch. bbl
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, but why replace it with two when you can have just one letter?
And an awesome one at that.
17:02
OK. I think I finally squashed all the code bugs this time.
commits changes
What I'm not sure about is how in sync testing and production are now.
Why are we spelling things funnily today?
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Because eks
Because 'ghoti'
17:40
@KitFox Tsk. Tsk.
sighs
I can't win.
@Mitch That would be a mean spelling bee question. >:)
@KitFox The only winning move is not to play.
!!> var s = ""; var a = bot; for(var b in a) { s += b.toString() + " "; } s;
@MrHen "ReferenceError: bot is not defined"
17:41
rolls eyes
@KitFox If you tell it to join the MrHen chat room I can tease it privately instead of clogging up the chat :)
!!/summon 11098
That's not going to help you much, since she'll need permissions there.
I should put her in the Sandbox, maybe.
@KitFox perfect, thanks
Oh. She works there?
I gave it write permissions.
17:47
Oh. Of course.
c c
c c
18:36
!!You there?
 
2 hours later…
20:18
0
Q: Reopen, Keep Open

cpusrI am not sure about some possible error: link "For his more moderate members, Mr. Boehner offered a simple appeal — his plan would have reopened the government through Dec. 15, and extended the nation’s borrowing authority through Feb. 7. " The verb "to reopen" is "to open again". So...

@MετάEd BST warning.
@KitFox Stop programming your Sox Puppet.
Oops, for some reason I thought MετάEd was a moderator. Sorry to disturb.
20:48
@BraddSzonye BST is just coming to an end. We switch back to GMT on 27th October
> most of us will die before the videogames of our childhoods fall into the public domain.
Sad.
that doesn't bother me so much. for some reason what I really want is to be able to digitise all my physical books for no extra cost. that seems fair. but copyright law forbids it
posted on October 18, 2013 by sgdi

There’s a place that is cosy and green Where all of the things that are mean Can’t get to me I’m totally free It’s something approaching serene

@MattЭллен Is that really true? It is 100 % legal here and in many other countries...
20:57
well, not forbids, but I'm not allowed to do it without permission
@Cerberus if I want to make a copy of a book then I have to have permission. this is not granted by buying the physical book
I'll scan them for you, then, law-abiding as you no doubt are.
@MattЭллен That's very sad.
I presume everybody ignores that.
How about if I declare your office Dutch territory for today?
20:58
as a content creator, of sorts, it seems hypocritical of me to ignore other peoples claims on their own content
@Cerberus thanks :D but naw
Then you can say, "oh, those books? I scanned them in cheeseland".
@MattЭллен Why?
@Cerberus because I want to be free to make claims on my content
God knows I have created content in this chat. Every single line copyrighted.
even though I probably wouldn't
Why?
20:59
for example, see above limerick
Is it not better if people are legally free to do what they want?
@Cerberus because I made it
So what?
@Cerberus better over all, but not for me
I made a picture of two French dudes earlier today. Why can't they have it?
21:00
@Cerberus I want to have control of the things that I produce
(With their camera.)
@Cerberus if you say it is fine, then they can. that's my point
@MattЭллен Why? And also, why do you think you ever could?
@Cerberus not in absolute terms, but legally, yes. and most people respect that, and I respect that for people
@MattЭллен I am not condoning plagiarism or making money off what someone else (mostly) made. But I don't think it should involve the state.
@MattЭллен I think most people will not commit plagiarism; but I think very few people have much respect for copyright these days.
21:02
if there is no one to enforce it then you rely on people's honour, and most people don't understand why a creator wouldn't give something away for free
And is this not rather a case of honour than something else?
I wouldn't copy your limerick and sell it, keep the money myself. But I would copy it and save it on my computer if it so pleased me.
knowing there is a law is helpful to those who wish to abide by it
I rather think the laws has destroyed the credibility of copyright to a large degree, in recent years.
if there is no law then people have to guess and then is gets all messy. the global (well, national) code of conduct is useful in that sense
How do you mean guess?
21:05
@Cerberus the way corporations use it certainly has
Yes.
And that is inherent in copyright.
@Cerberus well, they have to guess what society deems cool. even though laws are not entirely representative, they're often better than nothing
And you think people know what the laws are in the country where the limerick was written? Or even in their own country?
90+ % of the people won't.
@Cerberus yes, but it can be improved, e.g. prevent copyright outliving the author. prevent a corporation claiming that it wrote something when it was actually people.
It can be improved, yes.
But I think there will always be a lot of abuse.
21:07
hang on, there's a cartoon...
Oh noes...
I would like to inform Cerberus specifically that I am as drunk as a Russian.
Yay!
Party?
Yeah I know gimme cartoons.
21:07
Vodka?
Some asshat keeps trying to suggest a spammy change to the same answer of mine on music.SE. Like, six times now.
@MattЭллен Haha.
@Cerberus actually yes, a friend of mine has an Einweihungsparty. Also, his wife has a birthday.
@Cerberus огые рщц цщгдв ящг лтщц,
The Einweihung of what? His house? His wife?
Oh. Russian keyboard. Let me try again.
Just how would you know?
@Cerberus they moved.
21:09
Why the comma, I was going to ask.
The wife is eingeweiht alright.
Good.
@Cerberus Comma is Russian for question mark. If that makes no sense to you, you're no true Russian.
Were there fun people, so you all drank a lot? Or were there boring people so you drank a lot?
@RegDwigнt It does now.
I'm no true Russian. I'm a true Brit. Just like Climt Easterward
21:10
Actually I didn't drink a lot at their place. I'm back home now drinking against sickness. Vodka with pepper. Stuff's awful.
@MattЭллен so that is why you are green.
green like vermouth
@MattЭллен But anyway, if this is supposed to represent violating copyright, it seems off on two counts: 1.) when you copy something, the owner still has the original. 2.) The copier would not typically claim that he is the author.
@Cerberus it's more a comment on how some users of tumblr behave, stealing content
It rather seems like a mix-up of the theft of a physical object and plagiarism.
21:11
That video is an enormously accurate depiction of my condition right now. Wow.
@MattЭллен Okay.
So anyway. Just wanted to mention. Back to drinking again. Lators.
@RegDwigнt Does that work?
Ok bai!
but my point is that I've forgotten. and I need to go to bed :D
Wot? It's like, 10PM.
21:12
I need to be up early in the morning.
OIC
Well, off with you, then. :D
Sleep tight.
it's like a regular work day, but without pay and with fun and free pizza
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 thanks! I hope I will :D
CUaes
21:13
@RegDwigнt How lovely and meaningful.
@MattЭллен Haha, OK, well, good night!
Yay free pizza!
I don't have quite enough reps on teh music.SE to reject the changes, but I still get a notification each time.
Changes to your own answer/question?
And you get several changes?
@Cerberus answer.
They keep trying to introduce the same spam.
Real spam?
Or...?
If you can't get to that, it says
> 333 Put the cost of a $100 check out approximately $150 and consumers will change away. If you are it accurate that the effortless gladness of a [url=tlrandco.com/replica-louis-vuitton/]louis vuitton shoes replica[/url]
brb work
21:22
Also.
Just wanted to disinform Matt specifically that I am sober.
Stupid disinformation won't spread itself. You have to help out. Alas.
On a second thought, disinformation spreads itself just fine if you label it a rumour.
So here's the latest rumour: I am sober. Again.
Hello ninja, bye bread.
Hello gator.
@Rob I hear Reg is sober.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Oh, dear. That is horrible. At least other won't approve, or will they? I wonder how such an account even gets more than 1 rep.
@Cerberus the elders have been rejecting them.
@RegDwigнt Yeah you sound crazy enough to be sober.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Great.
21:39
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That sounds like a reasonable correction/expansion of what you said...if by reasonable you mean random.
I know how you feel, it can be really frustrating when you can't post an answer as a comment. +1 — Cerberus 31 secs ago
@Mitch You're doing it again.
Log reading. Just so you know.
22:05
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Sadly don't have the rep there to terminate it with extreme prejudice.
@Cerberus I have a hard time responding to people if I can't read the log.
OK let me try with a blind fold.
laz78fsd;pfsd xzsa
3
Huh. Not too shabby.
Not much worse than your usual stuff, eh?
How do you think I manage?
@Cerberus zing!
@Mitch you also look at keyboard when you type? Everyone I know hates my typing because I type like a manager.
@Cerberus Touch typing?
@Cerberus all answers on ELU should be this.
Rather, they should be what you commented on. "Because that's what the language is"
@JohanLarsson Oooh, that stings. "You tie your shoe laces like a manager." "You perform herniated disc arthroplasty like a manager"
22:17
@Mitch sorry man
@JohanLarsson Every so often I'll do one of those touch typing online classes. They're so much fun like games and I can get OK at them. But as soon as the game is over and I have to type something real, I look at the keyboard.
@JohanLarsson You respond to ELU chat messages like a manager.
I look at the keyboard even when it is so dark I can't see it
Evening.
@Mitch What is your wpm? I'm about 35.
Is it true that Reg is sober?
I should maybe ask that on Skeptics.
22:21
@Mitch Quite so.
what is Skeptics about?
It's like Keptics, but with extra ssss.
oh
looks like VS2013 is official now
Who?
Virulent Speaker 2013?
Visual Studio
22:29
Ah.
Wish TV was more like this, in Norwegian so you will probably not get much but it is about math. Math turned into entertainment in a classy way imo.
Great.
@JohanLarsson Math turned into entertainment? so you're saying nothing, right?
I don't understand
@JohanLarsson I can't claim -any- wpm because hardly any of them come out correctly the first time around.
22:31
I understand
@JohanLarsson the intersection of math and entertainment is the empty set.
I learned that on the TV show #umb3rs
@Mitch perhaps it was until now
Math is sexy.
Discussing partial differentials often leads to the shedding of clothing.
whoa, gotta watch out if that is true
Damn it.
commits changes
glares @Johan
22:46
u mad?
grumbles
I'm no expert at all but I commit very often, look at it a little like saving.
@KitFox No. No it doesn't. Or rather if by shedding clothing it is done out of extraordinary frustratino leading to psychosis where one tears ones hair out, cuts oneself, runs naked through the snow, bites the head off of chickens kind of frustration.
Well, I guess we have very different experiences of math.
I guess. hides cuttings and bald spot
22:51
So you're saying you've never hung out with a really attractive Romanian physicist who liked to discuss math before she ... you know.
I did get in a fight with someone over the homodromy group of an eigensystem in a motivic cohomology. I won by pulling the Szilard-Boseman-Naranja maneuver. He walked away with a nose bleed, which was lucky for him.
You totally made that up.
@KitFox I know. The Romanian mathematicians are supposed to be the best lovers, they're so nimble, can anticipate your everymove.
@KitFox Prove it, said the mathematician.
It reduces to a previous solution.
i.e., Hey, it's me.
this is a mathematician with an attitude.
> In August 2006, Perelman was awarded the Fields Medal[1] for "his contributions to geometry and his revolutionary insights into the analytical and geometric structure of the Ricci flow." Perelman declined to accept the award or to appear at the congress, stating: "I'm not interested in money or fame, I don't want to be on display like an animal in a zoo."
22:55
Yeah, yeah. Show me one I haven't had sexual relations with.
no way you know him
@JohanLarsson A good attitude. Most people are fame and money whores nowadays.
very true
I guess there's no way you'd know about my factoid meme.
Factoid shmactoid
23:06
show the meme?
@KitFox Pfft. The correct answer was 'both Szilard and Boseman-Naranja were physicists and, whether by name or by practice they were no mathematicians.'
@KitFox :)
I've claimed to have sexual relations with a lot of people, is what it boils down to.
yeah, managed to get that
23:13
OK. Just wanted to make sure.
Even in my bid for moderatrix.
Man, I make myself laugh sometimes.
Reference is not set to an instance of an object.
@KitFox Obviously.

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