English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Dannyu NDos

00:00

I feel quite a cultural difference here ― The South Korean government almost always told South Koreans "how to speak"; inventing new words and polishing existing words for instances.

alphabet

@Cerberus Eh, new spellings/pronunciations promoted by governments tend to catch on. Nobody calls it "Peking" anymore.

Cerberus

@alphabet Umm everybody does.

It is the standard word.

Xanne

The U.S. does have a board governing use in the federal government, though:
>The U.S. Board on Geographic Names is a Federal body created in 1890 and established in its present form by Public Law in 1947.

>The Board was created to maintain uniform geographic name usage throughout the Federal Government. Sharing its responsibilities with the Secretary of the Interior, the Board promulgates official geographic feature names with locative attributes as well as principles, policies, and procedures governing the use of domestic names, foreign names, Antarctic names, and undersea feature names.

Dannyu NDos

And quite a few of such attempts were successful.

alphabet

@Cerberus You almost never hear it in the US (except in "Peking duck" for some reason). "Beijing" is the standard spelling and it's always pronounced with a /b/, not a /p/.

I don't think I learned that "Peking" was just an older romanization of "Beijing" until I was in high school at least.

Cerberus

00:03

It is not good style.

Obeying Mao.

Style is about using your own judgement, not following bad examples or the masses.

alphabet

@Cerberus Look at ngrams: books.google.com/ngrams/…

Cerberus

It doesn't matter.

alphabet

If you want to be understood by most people, or are writing for any serious publication, you call it Beijing.

Cerberus

Most people lie. That doesn't make it good.

tchrist

Coerced speech is the mark of authoritarian assholes everywhere.

Cerberus

00:05

@alphabet That is not true.

Everyone knows Peking.

alphabet

If you use "Peking," don't expect it to get published in any major newspaper.

tchrist

Exactly. And everybody uses it.

alphabet

@Cerberus Maybe you do. It's pretty obscure to anyone born after 1990.

Dannyu NDos

Believe me, no South Korean calls it Peking. It's Beijing.

Cerberus

@alphabet That doesn't matter.

@alphabet Not anyone who matters.

tchrist

00:06

@DannyuNDos You aren't speaking English, are you?

alphabet

@Cerberus Surely you of all people want to sound educated and refined.

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos This is about English, not Korean.

Dannyu NDos

Nvm

Cerberus

@alphabet I just want to use the words as I always have used them.

Following the masses is a really bad basis for judgement.

If some autocrat tells you to use a foreign word in your own language, it makes no sense to obey.

tchrist

The radical left and the reactionary right are alike in trying to force speech upon you that is not yours. Ignore the bastards.

jlliagre

00:07

And when you know how to pronounce Türkiye, start thinking about declensions.

Cerberus

@tchrist The horseshoe.

tchrist

@jlliagre I decline! :)

Cerberus

Les extêmes se touchent. The far-anything tend towards totalitarianism.

alphabet

@Cerberus This has nothing to do with politics. All right-wing news sources use the modern Romanization also.

Dannyu NDos

I mean... There has been the National Institute of Korean Language, but I understand there will never be the Royal Institute of English Language. You don't need it because y'all are so conservative about the English orthography.

tchrist

00:09

Diversity of speech is intolerable to them. They think it lets people think outside their rules.

Cerberus

@alphabet If it doesn't, then who made people stop using Peking?

Mitch

@alphabet but but but!

tchrist

Somebody made us stop? I think not.

Cerberus

Made some people stop.

alphabet

@Cerberus Yeah, but educated people today will almost universally think less of you for using what is now considered the incorrect form.

Cerberus

00:11

You are again using arguments based on masses.

Following the masses leads to bad style.

jlliagre

French still use Pékin.

Mitch

It's easily pronounible as much as one can in English, yet people insist on saying 'Bei zhing' instead of the closer 'Bei djing'

tchrist

Some petit tyrant with delusions of grandeur then. Stupid people are forever stupid and bent upon remaining that way. Let them.

Cerberus

And also to other bad decisions sometimes.

Mitch

I WILL NOT DIE ON THIS HILL

alphabet

00:11

@Cerberus I dunno. But now it's used by everyone; the old spelling is generally considered wrong.

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha seriously! That is so silly: Mao's whole system was based on translitteration to English. The only reason it uses j there is because English pronounces j like /dʒ/.

jlliagre

and Turquie.

alphabet

@Cerberus I mean, you're welcome to keep using it, as long as you're OK with most people either not understanding you or thinking you're wrong.

Cerberus

@alphabet It doesn't matter what 'everyone' does. So it is little use to try that argument on me.

alphabet

If you're OK being perceived negatively by educated audiences, I won't try to stop you.

Dannyu NDos

00:13

@Cerberus The quirk is, Mandarin distinguishes /ɖʐ/ and /dʑ/.

tchrist

@jlliagre And you never have random passersby hearing you say that suddenly kick you in the nuts for that? Don't come to America then, at least unless you get to skip over the sybaritic coastals.

Cerberus

@alphabet How long have you known me? Do you really think I care about opinions I consider wrong? Especially if it is some majority?

@DannyuNDos Right, so it would even be ambiguous. Even sillier.

tchrist

The best way to know something is wrong is to see what the majority is thinking.

Mitch

@Cerberus The idiocy of the masses.

tchrist

And go the other way.

Cerberus

00:14

That's what you get when you try to pronounce a word in your own language following the rules of a language you know nothing about.

alphabet

@Cerberus Again: if you don't care, you're welcome to do so. But don't expect most people not to understand you or not to judge it as incorrect.

Cerberus

@Mitch Voilà.

@alphabet Then why are you saying this to me?

To convince me?

Robusto

@alphabet Most of history is pretty obscure to anyone born after 1990.

They do know how to play video games, though, I'll give them that.

Dannyu NDos

Peking aside, should I capitalize it "Eswatini" or "eSwatini"?

Mitch

@Cerberus usually but presumably Americans thought it would sound fancier a la française

And zhuzhed it up

Cerberus

00:17

The silliest thing.

@DannyuNDos Hahaha please.

alphabet

@Cerberus I can't tell you what words to use. I can try to tell you why most would consider it unwise to do so.

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos It is English, so use the basic rules of English writing.

Dannyu NDos

Yeah... I guess.

Cerberus

@alphabet You keep repeating the argument "follow the masses" for the 100th time. Why, when you know I consider it invalid?

alphabet

Also: earlier you claimed that "everyone" calls it Peking, which is just obviously false.

Cerberus

00:18

And what was that a reply to?

tchrist

@Mitch Glory be to Him, the Exalted!

Even the frog one.

alphabet

18 mins ago, by alphabet

@Cerberus Eh, new spellings/pronunciations promoted by governments tend to catch on. Nobody calls it "Peking" anymore.

18 mins ago, by Cerberus

@alphabet Umm everybody does.

tchrist

Some people give up trying to think for themselves.

alphabet

You were the one who started appealing to the masses, not me.

tchrist

It's safer that way. When you live in North Korea.

Cerberus

00:20

Yes, "nobody" → "everybody".

tchrist

Or, apparently, on the coasts.

Poor mind slaves.

alphabet

@Cerberus I have said multiple times that I cannot tell you what words to use. I'm not giving commands.

Cerberus

I'm not saying you are.

alphabet

@Cerberus What does that mean?

Cerberus

I am saying exactly what I said there.

alphabet

00:21

I don't know what you were trying to say then.

Cerberus

@alphabet I merely used "everybody" to reply your "nobody", which is of the same type.

alphabet

@Cerberus Yes, but your statement "Everybody calls it Peking" is false.

Cerberus

It is appropriate in context.

Dannyu NDos

@tchrist What coast are you referring to, if I may ask seriously?

Cerberus

You can't take my statement literally but not your own, to which it was a reply.

tchrist

00:24

Is tar and feathers and getting dragged off to the stockage really all that much better than torches and pitchforks and getting dragged off to the stake or tree? Well yes, but not by much, and the one leads quickly to the other.

@DannyuNDos The American East and West Coasts, full of people who think they know better than you.

And expect you to do what you're told when they tell you to do it.

Dannyu NDos

I cannot say much of the US, but what about the south coast?

alphabet

@Cerberus Huh? Even if you just meant "Most people call it Peking" or "Educated people call it Peking," you're still wrong.

tchrist

There are no overeducated pansy élites there in the Deep South.

Cerberus

@alphabet It doesn't matter, it was just a reply to your own exaggeration.

Dannyu NDos

@tchrist And I guess that was a compliment for me, or for South Koreans in general?

Cerberus

00:26

But you could say, everyone who cares about good style enough.

alphabet

@Cerberus My statement is basically accurate. I don't think I've ever heard anyone use Peking, with one exception--someone else making an argument on the Internet, ironically enough.

tchrist

No knowitalls in the bayou.

Xanne

> The Geographic Names Server (GNS) is the official repository of standard spellings of all foreign geographic names, sanctioned by the United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN). . . .The GNS can be used for finding places, GIS data, cartography, and GEOINT products.

tchrist

@DannyuNDos I thought you meant the south coast of the United States: the Gulf Coast.

Cerberus

@alphabet Then you are not looking in the right places, it is not accurate. But again, it doesn't matter how many people use which variant.

alphabet

00:28

@Cerberus I'm not sure who you include in "Everyone who cares about good style," since it apparently excludes newspaper editors, major authors, and people giving formal speeches.

Dannyu NDos

@tchrist Yeah, exactly.

Cerberus

@alphabet Yes, of course it excludes many of those.

But I will no longer respond to the "many people use x, and there it is good style" argument any more.

alphabet

@Cerberus So who does it include? All and only the people who agree with you? It must be a small group.

Cerberus

Large enough.

But it doesn't matter.

Dannyu NDos

And what about the lakes between US and Canada? Do they make coasts?

tchrist

00:29

If this doesn't stop, NOW, I'm going to call upon divine succour.

@DannyuNDos They do, actually, to those of us who live there. "The Coast of Lake Michigan" is commonly said as a thing.

Cerberus

Yeah it was just a repeated repetition.

alphabet

@Cerberus I'm not making that argument. I'm saying that most people who care about good style--which surely includes some of the writers and editors of all major publications--don't follow the rules you've come up with.

Cerberus

I disagree, but let's quit that line of argument.

tchrist

Holy insularities!

Narcissus, watch thyself.

Cerberus

He always does.

alphabet

00:32

Even if you only think that 5% of major authors, editors, and speechwriters use "good style," you'll find that those authors use "Beijing," that being the standard spelling.

Or 2.5%, or 1%.

Cerberus

I'm not responding.

Xanne

Names of Beijing

"Beijing" is from pinyin Běijīng, which is romanized from 北京, the Chinese name for this city. The pinyin system of transliteration was approved by the Chinese government in 1958, but little used until 1979. It was gradually adopted by various news organizations, governments, and international agencies over the next decade. == Etymology == The Chinese characters 北 ("north") and 京 ("capital") together mean the "Northern Capital". The name was first used during the reign of the Ming dynasty's Yongle Emperor, who made his northern fief a second capital, along with Nanjing (南京, the "Southern Capital...

tchrist

Such tiny, pathetically self-absorbed cliques.

Mitch

@DannyuNDos nobody ever refers to that as the 'south coast'. It's called the 'Gulf coast'

tchrist

Who believe the world without can but reflect the world within. Fools.

Dannyu NDos

00:33

Thanks, TIL.

alphabet

@Cerberus Well, I can't argue with that, I suppose.

Cerberus

Good.

It doesn't work to use a quantitative argument on me regarding style.

Regarding food, it works.

tchrist

So, eat a lot?

Not a good idea.

Pablum is as pablum does.

Cerberus

I didn't say it had to be a large quantity.

Xanne

The NYT switched to Beijing in 1986, the BBC in 1990.

Cerberus

00:35

I try not to binge eat.

alphabet

Here's a deal: if you can find people who you consider to have good style and, in recent works not intended to make some sort of political point, use the spelling "Peking," let me know.

Mitch

@Cerberus Peking duck?

Cerberus

Even though it is nice.

Xanne

Welcome to the Twenty-First.

Cerberus

<ignoring quantititative argument>

Mitch

00:36

@Cerberus you know of the taxonomy of food eaters, right?

Cerberus

Not yet?

alphabet

Ok. If you can't find any, that settles it, no? Since it means that everyone who you consider to have good style uses the spelling "Beijing."

tchrist

Southern and Oriental restaurants get to do whatever they Belize, of course.

Xanne

Peking duck and Peking man have managed to hold on, though.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh man you know me!

Cerberus

00:38

@alphabet Quit trying to get the last word in.

Mitch

First there's 'gourmet'

Then there's 'gourmand'

And lastly 'gour-moo'

Cerberus

Ugh that had better be in French...

Mitch

Who eats like a cow

tchrist

And Peking robin. And Peking spaniel. And Pekin stripe. And Peking stitch. And Peking opera. I could go on.

Cerberus

I can do that.

Mitch

00:39

I'm laughing I'm crying

tchrist

@Mitch Gorthaur, is that you?

alphabet

@Cerberus How am I trying to get the last word in? I wasn't making a statistical argument; I was directly contradicting the view you've been defending.

Cerberus

Still doing it!

I'm not replying!

Mitch

@tchrist is that from the Silmarillion?

That's gotta be from the Silmarillion.

tchrist

@jlliagre Pequín in Spanish, of course. Or sometimes Pekín if you accept "k" as a legit letter, which few do.

Mitch

00:42

What is it when you're at a chicken fight and the chickens are fighting and...

Oh

It's a chicken fight

That's what you call it.

Cerberus

Now I'm hungry.

Mitch

For chicken

Dannyu NDos

Speaking of foods... I've met someone who thinks there are Korean rice noodles.

alphabet

Want some Beijing duck? /s

Dannyu NDos

So I told him rice noodles are Vietnamese.

...Right?

tchrist

00:44

I would know Tauron if I saw him. You must be Gorthaur instead.

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos Only you know!

Mitch

I'm half listening to something with some Italians speaking Italian and I don't understand a thing but I am super impressed with their Italian accent.

tchrist

You can make noodles from ryes.

Mitch

But I guarawntee that if it were Americans speaking Italian with a bad American accent, I'd probably understand some of it

Dannyu NDos

I told him also that there are Korean noodles, but they're not made from rice.

Namely, North Korean cold noodles. They're made from buckwheat or potatoes.

alphabet

00:47

You know what annoys me? People who are so sensitive that they think any expression of disagreement with, or disapproval of, the language they happen to use is an evil attempt at coercion and censure and censorship and cancelling and communism.

Mitch

@Cerberus Speaking of noodles, is 'bucatini' a new thing? (It's spaghetti but with a hole like a straw)

alphabet

(Cerberus, that wasn't really directed at you.)

Mitch

@alphabet How dare you!

I mean communism isn't the problem it's the implementation

tchrist

@Mitch Sure it's not Ligurian or Lombard or Sardinian?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, it's easier when people bend a foreign language towards your own.

tchrist

00:49

Potato noodles, now why does that ring a bell?

Cerberus

@Mitch Umm I don't know the name, but I do believe thin, hollow pasta exists?

@alphabet Oof!

tchrist

Oh because of kartoffelknödel.

Mitch

@tchrist nah it's extremely clear standard Italian.

Cerberus

I only get annoyed when people try to give a moral reason for judging—and trying to make people change—their language. Especially if they do it just because others do.

Mitch

@tchrist is that a thing? Awesome!

I just finished dinner and this whole conversation makes me want a second dinner

tchrist

00:51

@Mitch Your German and Polish and Czech relatives never brought those to family picnics??

Mine certainly did.

Dannyu NDos

@tchrist Err... Those doesn't seem to be noodles?

For comparison, here are potato noodles I was referring to:

Mitch

@tchrist sadly my mitteleuropäisch Verwandte are from another century

tchrist

Dumplings aren't noodle things?

jlliagre

I know gnocchi, not exactly noodles though.

tchrist

yeah

Dannyu NDos

00:54

@tchrist No, at least in South Korean standards.

Mitch

I grew up in the South. So there was no such thing as foreigners. -everyone is assimilated-

alphabet

Surely language use, like anything else, can be judged from a moral standpoint. Of course trying to force people to change their language would be wrong, but criticism isn't coercion.

Of course, you have to actually be right about the moral reasoning, and following the masses isn't a particularly good guide.

Mitch

Goddammit

Cerberus

@alphabet OMG who are you!

tchrist

To be honest, they're more like the dumplings in chicken and dumpling soup, but firmer.

Mitch

00:55

starts rewriting 10,000 page work of staggering genius

Cerberus

I'm going to print that line and frame it in gold-plated ebony!

Mitch

taps earphone

already written?

Cerberus

Wait, is wood plated?

Dannyu NDos

@tchrist This?

alphabet

@Cerberus This isn't really relevant to our earlier conversation, since I don't think there's anything morally wrong with using "Peking"; it seems imprudent to use it, and even more imprudent to insist that others use it, but that's not a moral consideration.

Cerberus

00:56

in The Frying Pan, Jul 9 at 1:36, by Cerberus

I made these a few months ago.

Mitch

@Cerberus wood that is plated, yes.

Dannyu NDos

And a tip: Don't ever say the Korean name of this food to a Portuguese speaker. It sounds like a horrible swearing.

tchrist

@DannyuNDos I remember things like this from being a kid.

But you could also make potato dumplings using potato flour instead.

They weren't extruded noodles.

Dannyu NDos

떡만둣국 /tʌŋ man du kuk̚/, it is.

alphabet

I mean, it'd also be imprudent to use "I don't got any" when writing an article to be published in The Atlantic, since it might get your article rejected. But obviously there's nothing morally wrong about that.

Cerberus

00:58

@alphabet Are you sure? It isn't some P.C. idea?

tchrist

So not noodles the way gyoza dumplings are.

alphabet

@Cerberus There's probably somebody who thinks it's politically incorrect or somehow morally objectionable to use "Peking," but I don't.

tchrist

PC speech bashing has only rules, not ideas.

Cerberus

OK.

@Mitch Are you suggesting unplated wood is not plated?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…