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00:34
@M.A.R. oh. That was forever ago like before two weeks ago.
@Robusto currently I'm a washed out gray.
Oh you're talking about my avatar.
It on the other hand is cat colored
@Robusto say what you will about collaborators, but ...
01:13
Cats associate human words with images, experiment suggests
Word of the day: tomoz. (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, informal) Tomorrow.
Really sounds like the name of a dish at a Middle Eastern restaurant, doesn't it? I could go for some Chicken Tomoz.
01:52
Or Near East.
@CowperKettle Wow, really!
@CowperKettle I don't know: as presented on this page, I'm not entirely sure I am convinced.
@Cerberus Isn't the Near East part of the Middle East? Google tells me that Middle East used to refer to (say) Central Asia but has been extended to include places as far West as Turkey, a usage that the AP Stylebook endorses.
Huh, Wikipedia tells me there's a weird history behind this:
> With the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, "Near East" largely fell out of common use in English, while "Middle East" came to be applied to the re-emerging countries of the Islamic world. However, the usage "Near East" was retained by a variety of academic disciplines, including archaeology and ancient history, where it describes an area identical to the term Middle East, which is not used by these disciplines (see ancient Near East).
Of course the modern terminology makes no logical sense, but it is what it is.
02:35
> I cannot help thinking of the many debates in this House that have been held over the course of years concerning this area of the world. In past days it was called the "Near East". Now, for some reason, we call it the "Middle East". [...] Perhaps, too, the Earl of Balfour might look in, having regard to the way in which Palestine enters into all our discussions. Looking back over those debates, one sees that there are many actors who have disappeared from the scene. The old Empire of Austria-Hungary has gone; others, like Turkey, have changed. But there remains always Russia. And when one
@jlliagre Ah, so the British defined it to mean "All those places we screwed over."
Before you blame the Israelis or the Palestinians, remember that this is all Britain's fault.
03:25
@alphabet Surely you will agree that using Middle East for the nearest part of the east, called the Near East, is infelicitous?
@Cerberus Infelicitous? Maybe. But I don't get to choose what words mean.
Language is made and changed by people.
You can choose how you use it.
You can make your language more logical and aesthetic if you want to.
Maybe you can start a mass movement to change the word's meaning, but I don't think you'll get very far.
I'd rather speak English than a more logical and beautiful conlang.
@jlliagre Voilà, exactement.
@alphabet All sorts of odd assumptions here.
Near East already means the Near East.
@alphabet If you are afraid people might misunderstand in a certain context, you can always use West Asia.
03:31
Invent your own dialect if you'd like, but don't be surprised if you have trouble communicating with native speakers.
You are not being fair.
Life isn't fair.
Is this a real conversation or just spewing random things?
Stop using punctuation, capitals, and proper syntax: most people do not write that way, so they will not understand you.
Very good.
03:36
@Cerberus I don't think anyone has trouble understanding punctuation, capitals, or proper syntax, even those who don't use it much themselves.
Do you understand why I said that?
Yes, because you misunderstood my point.
Certainly it's only valuable to conform to standard usage insofar as it makes you widely understood by native speakers.
As I said, you don't need to always use the same language for all audiences.
But proper punctuation will not make you harder to understand.
Someone once even told me I sounded angry because I used full stops.
Using Near East with people capable of understanding it does not make you hard to understand.
03:40
That is very much true if you're (say) texting, at least with most people in my generation.
It was in a chat room.
Ah. Depends on the chat room. This one tends to be oddly formal, I suspect because the membership skews older.
My point stands.
Regardless, using "Middle East" to denote a region not including the Near East will render you less comprehensible to most native speakers.
You don't need to stop using proper syntax here, even though your sentences might be harder to understand for someone with little education.
@alphabet This was about the term Near East, not Middle East.
I do not use the term Middle East.
Now I know you will search chat.
03:43
@Cerberus You're welcome not to do so if you prefer.
You'll note that at no point did I criticize you for using the term Near East.
But you criticised me for saying that using Near East is better.
Yes, I criticized you for saying that it's better.
Asserting that I would be hard to understand.
I meant that you would be difficult to understand if you used the term "Middle East" to denote a region excluding the Near East.
That is different.
03:48
That was the extent of my objection.
Feb 28, 2018 at 0:18, by Cerberus
So maybe I'll give up my battle against wrong use of 'Middle East' in a century or two. But not today.
I never said to use Middle East in a context where it would confuse the desired audience.
Obviously.
Six years later, and still going strong! I don't think you're winning the battle, though.
Battles need not be won completely.
But you did say that your preferred terminology was somehow better than that used by most proficient speakers of the language. I'm not sure how you'd justify that conclusion.
Logic and aesthetics.
Can be important factors.
03:55
Aesthetics is not a source of objective value judgments. That could justify the claim that one usage accords better with your personal taste. But it wouldn't justify the claim that that usage is actually better.
I don't know what "objective value judgments" means here, nor why it should be relevant.
It is like saying this pair of trousers is objectively better than that pair.
Certainly the fact that you find a pair of trousers aesthetically pleasing doesn't make it objectively better.
It's a purely subjective judgment.
You keep using that word.
Which one?
Wearing trousers or using language is not only about some objective value.
Objective.
Whatever it means.
04:05
You said your preference for the term "Near East" was better. I'd assumed that you were trying to make an objectively true claim, not just a declaration of your personal aesthetic judgments.
Note that you could have a pair of trousers that was actually bad--or at least bad to purchase or wear--in an objective sense. Say, one made with child labor, or emblazoned with "I LOVE PUTIN," or what have you.
I don't know your definition of objective.
I certainly never used the word, nor do I care for it in such contexts.
Another word you don't care for! You're welcome not to use it, but I'd say you're worse off for not understanding it.
Not the word in general, of course.
In context.
Using Middle East for Near East is ugly and unnecessary.
Exactly the way degrading your syntax would be ugly and unnecessary.
Which is why you don't do that.
You're welcome to find it ugly and unnecessary. But that gives other people no reason to avoid it, unless they want to sound better to you personally.
They can follow my reasoning and agree.
04:17
I don't think many people would.
Finding more things ugly almost always makes you less happy without providing any genuine benefits.
I'd recommend against it.
Wise.
But hardly fun.
Why hardly fun?
Because it seems...obsequious? Boring? Following the herd?
Don't follow the herd. But don't resent or look down on them either.
How do you view people wearing ugly clothes?
@alphabet It is certainly not a moral judgement, unless the language is deceptive like what big companies produce.
04:37
@Cerberus I rarely pay much attention to what people wear. I think I'd be much worse off if I did. Probably I do have some level of unconscious bias against some people based on certain clothing choices, but I'd consider that a vice, not a virtue.
That would be following the herd in one of its least wise respects. Of course, finding a different kind of clothing ugly than what the majority finds ugly is only an illusory difference.
If the majority find pop music appealing and classical music foolish, and you find classical music appealing and pop music foolish, you have a lot more in common with the majority than you may be willing to admit. The same house, but with two chairs swapped.
You know who actually didn't follow the crowd on musical matters? Mozi, with his rants about how all that money could be spent on feeding the hungry. Certainly that view isn't the only way to break with the crowd--and probably not the best one--but it demonstrates some level of independent thought.
05:06
@alphabet I think this is dodging the question a little bit.
I'm pretty sure you have opinions on what people wear.
Based on various considerations.
You don't need to pay attention to have them.
@Cerberus Insofar as I do, I think I'm worse off for having them and would prefer not to.
E.g. if someone's trousers are too tight and his shirt too short, resulting in his belly looking much bigger than otherwise.
Or if he wears a diaper over his trousers on your first date.
Just random examples that I think 99% of the people would find infelicitous.
@Cerberus Certainly I would prefer to be someone who didn't judge him for that than to be someone who does. It seems like it could only make you more dissatisfied.
@Cerberus That's a different case. Presumably the cause of that is something other than fashion choices.
@alphabet So, if he asked your honest advice, you would not tell him he would look much better in different clothes?
@alphabet Let's assume not, let's assume he could wear a diaper under his trousers or not at all.
@Cerberus Certainly I would tell him that if he asked for advice. I mean, people may be worse off for judging his fashion choices, but they still will judge his fashion choices, and it would be prudent, to some extent, to follow their judgments, wise or not.
05:14
Exactly.
You help him the most by giving him advice on how he can look better to you or to whoever the relevant audience might be.
Though I think it'd strictly speaking make more sense to call it dressing advantageously rather than dressing better.
I am not wedded to my words.
Nice lighting as ever.
+2 C today
05:16
Warm for you, no doubt.
Yes, thanks Samsung's automatic settings for another great photo! ))
@Cerberus If I saw someone wearing diapers outside their pants, I'd assume it was some sort of weird fetish.
Paraphilic infantilism, also known as adult baby (or "AB", for short), is a form of ageplay that involves role-playing a regression to an infant-like state. Like other forms of adult play, depending on the context and desires of the people involved paraphilic infantilism may be expressed as a non-sexual fetish, kink, or simply as a comforting platonic activity. People who practice adult baby play are often colloquially referred to (by themselves and others) as "adult babies", or "ABs". Behaviors vary, but may include things such as wearing childish clothes, wearing and using diapers, cuddling with...
@Cerberus It's great for running - you get no overheat
@alphabet Yes, and you would find it ugly and suggest to your boyfriend that he should not wear this.
@Cerberus That's not just imprudent; it also suggests you're into certain things I'm not.
It is currently 49f outside and 76f in my apartment, because my building has an ancient steam-heating system and even opening the air vent on my radiator a tiny bit makes it that temperature unless I leave a window open.
(9.4C and 24.4C, respectively.)
05:20
At any rate, there are plenty of situations in which you will say people's choice of clothes is infelicitous, for a variety of reasons, one being aesthetics.
That is very warm.
My family's house in the country was built with steam heating too. Now it has...no heating, in most rooms.
I didn't know it could be regulated so poorly.
I thought it was merely prone to breaking and dangerous.
Gary Markus has posted this screenshot.
We have always known that Musk was an idiot.
@Cerberus Depends on what you mean by "aesthetics." I mean, if I had some sort of truly odd taste in clothing, then anyone trying to be attractive specifically to me would have a difficult choice to make, and a knowledge of aesthetics wouldn't solve that problem.
05:22
Had it not been posted by Markus, I would have thought this a fake screenshot.
@Cerberus My building was constructed somewhere around the year 1900, right down to the lead-based paint.
Based on their general appearance, I'm pretty sure the radiators haven't been upgraded since.
@alphabet Try to compare giving one's opinion on use of clothes to giving one's opinion on use of language. Or on any other aesthetic topic.
@alphabet Right, the country house was also built around that time.
Many of the old radiators are still there, dead.
@Cerberus But in the end, it comes down to what's most prudent and advantageous. If most of the audience you're trying to impress will think better of you for adopting some particular usage, then prudence would dictate adopting that usage, whether it seems ugly to you or not.
@Cerberus I've heard that the reason they're so hot is that it was assumed you'd leave windows open during the winter since there's no other source of ventilation.
@alphabet But that audience may not be the majority in your country.
@alphabet Hmm that would seem problematic in the in-between seasons.
@Cerberus Yes. I mean the majority of your anticipated audience, not the majority of the entire United States--unless your audience is the entire United States and you care equally about impressing each of them.
@Cerberus Yes. I think that, with many of these systems, there is some sort of centralized thermostat that controls the entire building's steam supply, but if my building has one it doesn't work.
At least not well.
05:32
> When Jo Goossens was 13, her parents bought her a new bike to ride to school. She’s now 82 and still riding the same bike. “I only buy something new if it’s necessary”, she says.
On the other hand, my bedroom does usually stay at 76f regardless of the outside temperature, so maybe there is something somehow controlling this.
@alphabet Just as with language, you may not care about what the majority in your country wear if you and/or your desired audience find it ugly.
@CowperKettle Of course I feel the same way.
Unfortunately, this is not possible with bikes in the city.
@alphabet Can't you just turn the heating off for a while?
@Cerberus Indeed. Granted, I try to avoid appeasing snobs in particular, because I'd rather they avoid me.
@Cerberus I could, but doing that constantly gets annoying.
So the point is that pointing to what some majority wears may have some relevance, but it greatly depends.
@alphabet Or maybe complaining helps.
Mentally.
In theory, what you're supposed to do is adjust all the radiators' air vents throughout the entire building so that every room stays at a consistent temperature; then, as long as the boiler is working properly, the building will remain at a reasonably comfortable temperature.
05:39
So the landlord should send someone to fine-tune all the building's radiators at once?
@Cerberus In theory, but I think everyone who knows how to do this properly is dead, and there's no way my landlord would pay to adjust a bunch of knobs that people will then readjust themselves.
Alas.
You see, if everyone else turned their radiators up, then their units would stay at the same temperature--the boiler would just run less often--but my unit would get cooler.
An unfortunate system.
At least I think that's how it works. I don't claim to fully understand early-20th-century heating systems.
All I know is there's one valve that kind of controls the temperature, and another that makes the radiator produce loud banging sounds.
05:48
That's the one you need!
The other one.
A surprising number of people think you're supposed to adjust the banging-noises valve to change the temperature.
bang bang
Then they complain about how loud their radiators are, because you're forcing steam through a pipe full of water flowing the opposite direction.
She pronounces the g like /g/.
At least in the second bang.
@Cerberus I forget, in Italian does bang bang mean the same thing as bunga bunga? /s
06:01
A virus is making people forget 80s rock bands...
Nobody knows The Cure.
06:26
@alphabet Almost.
 
6 hours later…
12:05
I just got my 23 and me results back for my frog
Turns out he is a tad italian a tad greek and a tadpole
 
1 hour later…
13:06
#travle #675 +4
🟧🟧✅✅✅🟧✅🟧✅✅
https://travle.earth
Worst one yet.
13:35
Wordle 1,218 4/6

⬛🟨⬛⬛🟨
⬛🟨🟨🟨⬛
🟨🟩⬛🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
13:54
Wordle 1,218 6/6

⬛⬛⬛🟩⬛
⬛⬛🟨🟨⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩
🟩🟩⬛🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
I hate the word xenophobia, it sounds so.. foreign
#WhenTaken #235 (19.10.2024)

I scored 880/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 2 km - 🗓️ 7 yrs - ⚡ 191 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 1084 km - 🗓️ 5 yrs - ⚡ 163 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 13 km - 🗓️ 14 yrs - ⚡ 172 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 30 km - 🗓️ 8 yrs - ⚡ 188 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 1128 km - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 166 / 200

https://whentaken.com
Daily Octordle #999
🔟🕛
7️⃣6️⃣
🕐8️⃣
5️⃣9️⃣
Score: 70
Yeesh.
Daily Sequence Octordle #999
6️⃣7️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕚
🕛🕐
Score: 76
Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Oct. 19, 2024

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 🎉

My Score: 2260
14:38
#WhenTaken #235 (19.10.2024)

I scored 911/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 237.2 metres - 🗓️ 2 yrs - ⚡ 198 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 580 km - 🗓️ 2 yrs - ⚡ 181 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 900 km - 🗓️ 9 yrs - ⚡ 160 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 132 km - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 194 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 619 km - 🗓️ 3 yrs - ⚡ 178 / 200

https://whentaken.com
Wordle 1 218 3/6

⬛⬛🟨⬛⬛
🟨🟨🟨⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
#travle #675 +0 (Perfect)
✅✅✅✅✅✅
https://travle.earth
Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Oct. 19, 2024

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ 💔 ✅ 💔 ✅ 💔 ⎵ 🤕

My Score: 980
15:16
Daily Octordle #999
🕐🕚
7️⃣4️⃣
🕛🔟
5️⃣8️⃣
Score: 70
Yeesh. ;-)
Shturmovshchina (Russian: штурмовщина, IPA: [ʂtʊrmɐfˈɕːinə], last-minute rush, lit. storming) was a common Soviet work practice of frantic and overtime work at the end of a planning period in order to fulfill the planned production target. The practice usually gave rise to products of poor quality at the end of a planning cycle. The cycle of shturmovshchina, associated with the tradition of monthly targets (on which bonuses and managers' positions depend), is described as follows. Due to the planned economy, required materials and tools were not always available on time, and the work slowed as...
@jlliagre Tough one today.
@CowperKettle In software, we call that a death march.
15:58
Daily Sequence Octordle #999
5️⃣6️⃣
7️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕛
🕐⓮
Score: 76
@Robusto Same scores today.
@jlliagre Weird. Crappy day all around.
@Robusto Travle and WhenTaken were okay.
@jlliagre I messed up Travle. Should have waited to have my coffee, but I was waiting for the oatmeal to cook.
Same for Wordle.
 
2 hours later…
18:18
Word of the eve: trunk-or-treat
 
4 hours later…
21:53
Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Oct. 19, 2024

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 🎉

My Score: 2430
I don't like the questions.
You know why I play Tightrope, and not the other games? Because I'm less bad at it.
@CowperKettle Except that Cicero uses the term officium in a different sense here.
But I appreciate the reference.
The "careful planning" part of my brain is substantially worse than the "remembering random trivia" part.
I don't know what to advise.
22:02
To whom was that a reply?
To whom?
About what are you talking?
I saw the other day an answer on main that used 'Old Saxon' where it was obviously should have been 'Old English' and I was apoplectic and did the Google-fu and I really couldn't be bothered to try to fix it
Old Saxon was the progenitor of Plattdeutsch, and Old English for English and old Low Franconian of Dutch but they all seem to have been located in the general area of ..._waves hands in air_... 'that' mostly the same area of the Netherlands and Northern Germany around 500AD that I can't tell if it these labels mean anything.
Those are some pernicious errors, trying quickly to fix which I wouldn't bother either.
They're errors in a hurry to fix which I'm not.
Errors because I noticed which I'm annoyed.
Errors how to prevent which I do not know.
Errors why which are made I am confused.
Errors which which to fix I am uncertain.
22:22
That's a lot of errors.
@Mitch That makes sense.
@Cerberus I feel like a bunch of Germans would know what the right analysis is but they didn't write a wikipedia article about it.
On Old Saxon?
Or on Lower German dialects?
22:47
@Cerberus yes
@Cerberus that also
Just all of it
Also...
All those Germanic tribe names in Caesar's Gallic Wars...how did they match up with later languages.

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