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00:00
@alphabet I read the last word as freeloader :p it's weird how I can be mod of this site and have such poor English reading skills
@Laurel You read his intention well
They both fit perfectly in context
Gert Sprecher's root beer.
In Philly, maybe Hank's.
@Laurel Their etymolological history is pretty parallel: freelancer comes from jousting and being an 'unaffiliated' competitor (not underwritten by some nobleman, not unlike a ronin, the samurai who had been disenfrachnised by his daimyo, (but this is mostly from the short Tokugawa period in Japanese history) and freeloader which is basically a longshoreman who is not restricted to one port (sort of an emancipated serf of the shipping industry in the Hanseatic league).
the time mark has root beer: https://youtu.be/m8Oq0nVQI1s?t=124
00:09
I don't know how we got to this subject but I wish I had more root beer
Notice how it's different in Minnesota. Well, and Wisconsin. But the Andrew J. Volstead House Museum is in Granite Falls, Minnesota.
root beer and foosball
Of course, these are all Americans saying it, not Europeans. You can tell because they don't spit it up every time they say the word. :)
Hi! Make sure the container is properly secure/secured. Can you use both the adjective and the participle in such a context and would it mean the same thing. Or would the first one mean shut and the second attached?
Let's say we remove the adverb properly, does that change anything?
@jlliagre Formidable !
Prairie Island Indian Community (Dakota: Tinta Winta) is a Mdewakanton Sioux Indian reservation in Goodhue County, Minnesota, along the Mississippi River. Most of the reservation now lies within the city of Red Wing, which developed after this land was set aside. The reservation was established in 1889, with boundaries modified after that time. The federally recognized tribe has lost much reservation land to the requirements of two major federal projects of the 20th century. The United States Army Corps of Engineers was authorized by Congress to construct Lock and Dam No. 3 along the river to improve...
@alphabet I don't think I want to play that game.
@Plusjamaisquoiencore They are both fine, but mean different things. To say that a container is secure means you vouch for its state, but to say it is secured means that you know people have made it so, and you probably have firsthand evidence of that. The difference is small but real. In any case, either amounts to the same thing in the end.
@Robusto Thank you, but what I want to say is that it's placed in a position it doesn't move or wobble, so I guess secured is the way to go.
00:55
@Plusjamaisquoiencore I wouldn't dissuade you from that conclusion.
@Robusto Context I guess. Ultimately straps can be used to fasten it etc.
Shipping.
Sure.
I understand it could mean safe or something less precise in a different context.
Say what you want to say.
The military extends that use of the verb secure to anything that is upsetting the perceived order. For example, say two soldiers are bitching about a detail, the sergeant might say, "Secure that shit!"
01:00
Anyways, I find make sure the container is properly secure weird. Yeah, I've heard this, most likely in Aliens.
Say what you want to say and then tell them what you said.
@user85795 Sure, but I want what I write to be as idiomatic as possible.
Also I need to grasp some nuances to translate this.
Then you run the risk of being overly terse.
When I speak the language I don't bother with such details, but this is documents.
@Plusjamaisquoiencore It's not weird. It just has different overtones.
01:05
@Robusto I hear you most likely it just means I've heard the collocation less often.
Yes.
Who is the intended audience?
@user85795 Shipping personnel and managers. But in some cases it is normative, in standard operating procedures and such.
Anyways I've seen the collocation "properly secured" for objects quite often, and it is somewhat annoying to translate to French.
"completely tied down / immobilized"
Yes, this is more down to earth, concrete. It's useful.
Yet a tall container could be immobilized but not secured.
01:15
Make sure that the container is placed in a position where it doesn't move or wobble.
How containers are stacked goes beyond the state of the one container.
But yeah, useful.
> ‘firmly, securely, steadfastly, eagerly, strongly, repeatedly, urgently, much, very’
Are the range of values for things that have been fastened so that they're held fast.
Are you both hinting that secured is a bit like boilerplate language?
It's pretty normal.
> In a strong, fixed position; in a firm or definite way; firmly, fixedly.
But that's for fast.
> So as to be difficult to detach or separate; with a firm grip or connection; tightly.
> With reference to imprisonment, confinement, etc.: so as to make escape difficult or impossible; securely.
securely is:
> In a secure manner.
1. 1550– In a manner free from anxiety or apprehension; carelessly; confidently; without care or misgiving.
> 2. 1587– Without threat or danger; in security; safely.
> 3. 1597– Without risk of error; with certainty.
> 4. 1642– In a fixed or stable manner; firmly.
Pretty sure sense 4 is this one.
> * 1908 Those wrought stones..are now securely clamped to the south wall. —E. Fowler, Between Trent & Ancholme 14
* 1960 We had barely succeeded in tying our boat securely to the bank. —W. Harris, Palace of Peacock iv. 39
* 2004 The bender is mounted securely in the jaws of an engineer's vice. —Tool & Machinery Catalogue 2005 (Axminster Power Tool Centre Ltd.) ii. 25/2
Thank you, OED is great.
I have an older paper version but lost the magnifier.
01:27
Magnifying 🔍 glasses are cheap, buy a few next time :-)
Cheap ones often have poor optics with warping. I had some cheap glasses and I could see behind me lolll.
But yea, there's also... the phone.
Yeah, tons of apps.
Maybe I'll buy a loupe for the eye.
yeah
01:31
Make sure the containers are properly secured, on a flat surface, stacked using best practices such as a honeycomb pattern, and fasten them with straps. Abstract+practical.
Anyways, this was insightful. Thanks all.
Make sure the containers are properly stacked on a flat surface, using best practices such as a honeycomb pattern, and fasten them with straps.
Haha, you really don't want that "secured" there.
I want to use "à demeure" but no one would understand it.
How about "securely stacked"
Make sure the containers are securely stacked on a flat surface, using best practices such as a honeycomb pattern, and fasten them with straps.
01:37
People didn't understand "assujettis" either looll. Anyways, this is mostly about translation, but I will write stuff in English down the line so I'll keep that sentence in mind.
Thanks for the help, cheers all!
01:57
@Plusjamaisquoiencore assujettis vs à libre. What word would they use if they don't know that one?
looks up the etyma for Büstenhalter
halter, holder
Oh, as in "halter tops".
retainer, bracket
If they don't get "Fixer quelque chose pour le maintenir dans une position stable" I have no idea what to do.
03:03
0
A: The function of "to start the year"

tchristIn a comment, the asker wrote: I checked several grammar books but as far as I know most to-infinitives as adverbs means a purpose, an intention, or a result except for enough to, the reason for the action, and etc. I can’t find the correct function that suit this case. BillJ mentioned that thi...

ELL books are telling somebody in South Korea that adverbial to-infinitives are mostly just ones of purpose or ones of result. While this is true in the aggregate, there are many more cases than those two alone that learners will soon enough encounter.
I don't know why the asker was so confused.
> He comes to the party to find his girlfriend cheating on him.
> He rejoiced to meet his old friend.
> To take a simple example, I am going to use a picture.
> To tell the truth, I don't agree with your decision.
> Strange to say, he can get a job easily.
> To begin with, we are going to discuss this situation together.
> To hear him speak, you would think he owned the whole world.
> a. He sent over to find out why he had not seen me at the meeting. (purpose)
b. He rose to be head of a college. (result)
c. Quarrels in the past have been patched up between them only to break out again. (sequence)
d. Who are we to measure another man’s courage? (consequence)
e. They must be crazy to go on. (consequence)
f. To hear him, you’d think he was drunk. (condition)
To be clear, there are far more things one can do with to-infinitives than are dreamt of in South Korean ELL books. :)
@Greybeard I checked several grammar books but as far as I know most to-infinitives as adverbs means a purpose, an intention, or a result except for enough to, the reason for the action, and etc. I can’t find the correct function that suit this case. If there are any other functions that can apply to this case plz let me know — Mango Gummy 2 days ago
It was not completely clear to me what they meant by "function".
BillJ comment-answered with a syntactic function / grammatical role, a temporal adjunct. I don't claim he's wrong.
I do feel it's a modifier kind of adjunct, not a supplement kind of adjunct.
It's not a complement.
But those are pretty closed vocabularies. Once you hit on this mostly-ELL-based classification hierarchy of adverbs and of adverbials, you'll never get people to agree on terminology.
Native speakers are never taught these things. We're really never taught much if any grammar at all in our own language. Yes, you can find these talked about in places like Quirk and H&P, but not one in a million reads them.
Getting too vested in terminology as a closed system is unhealthy.
Meaning: "It's an adverb of X, it's an adverbial of Y"
I wish we could at least get most of the common terms to exist as tag synonyms, but this may be impossible
There's also the problem that different people are using the same words as each other to mean different things by those same words. This can be a problem in tags.
Look at the guy on the dubiously migrated ELU-to-ELL post's querulous or plaintive comment asking why it was migrated
He comes from somewhere that if you put anything near a verb, it's an adverb. :)
Why was this migrated from English Stack Exchange to Language Learners? Aren't we all language learners? Is this an obvious one for the native speakers if everyone here is disagreeing with a grammar book written by English language speakers? — Mihai Danila 24 hours ago
I haven't answered him. But I didn't migrate it, either.
This is the thing where people don't understand about predicate adjectives. They see a modifier in the predicate and call it an adverb no matter what. She looks pretty.
It probably should not have been migrated.
John Lawler wished we never got another part of speech question. So many troubles.
03:24
RIP
@tchrist I agree, but it might be messier to try to reverse it now
@Laurel Yes, because I learned the hard way that it doesn't drag back the answers it got on the other site.
0
Q: "Best" in "best known": an adverb?

Mihai DanilaI'm confused. I'm reviewing this grammar book of exercises relating to things like recognizing parts of speech. The book includes the the solutions at the end. One of the exercises is to read a paragraph and circle the adverbs and underline the verb/adjective/adverb that they describe. Here's a s...

He also has that one still on ELU.
> I find that there are plenty of these exceptions from the rule "at the verb, ergo adverb", so why wouldn't "best" in "best known" be an exception too? Isn't "known" kind of an adjective? Just like in some grammar books "which" is an adjective, even though it's definitely a pronoun (yay, English).
I don't know where he got that "rule", but it sucks.
@tchrist The only way to fix that would be to practice the dark arts again
head hurts
Have some tea.
03:31
I was afraid that was one with an erased migration history.
@tchrist I wish they would attribute the textbook. So many questions are just ELs misunderstanding what a perfectly fine textbook says and then everyone assumes all textbooks are garbage
true
> Ad verb literally means "at verb", which means it attaches to the verb. I can see from the sentence structure that these attach to… verbs, but then verbs in gerund form and verbs in participle form take the role of other parts of speech (yay, English), so then it becomes a slippery slope.
Lost.
Just lost.
Notice how he only understand parts of speech. It's a problem.
Doesn't understand subjects and objects and modifiers and such.
Textbook learning is hard.
"noun" is not a role; "subject" is a role.
a verb that acts as a subject is not a noun; it's still a verb whose role is subject not predicate.
that's why you can't get people to relent on compound nouns having nouns turn into adjectives
@tchrist That one wasn't on you. This is what happened with it: i.sstatic.net/d0wlT.png
03:34
they don't understand that a noun modifying another noun is by definition a modifier
not by definition an adjective
I once had to fix one of this botched migrations.
I told him to bounce one, and he thought I meant to clear the migration history.
"bounce" wasn't jargon he knew what meant. My own fault.
I just meant to close it in a way that it was returned to sender.
Uh even having all the history available I forget what actually happened there. Which site did I even post the answer on????
hah
list the adjectives in: an eighteenth century solid gold necklace
See, it's a trick question.
Probably only eighteenth and solid
Certainly not century or gold.
But if you've never been taught actual syntactic roles like modifier, only parts of speech, then the last word is the noun necklace and everything else in the noun phrase can only ever be an adjective.
Oh wait I must have posted on ELU since that's where my lowest scoring copy of the answer is (out of 3)
@tchrist Does anyone call those noun adjunct phrases?
@Laurel No, that's just an NP.
And an is not an adjective. :)
NP adjunct?
03:40
No, the solid gold is the "adjunct" to the noun.
But solid is the adjective modifying gold.
@tchrist Yeah exactly
I meant that there were two with two words each
But they think gold cannot be a noun because they see it modifying another noun, so now they think solid is an adverb. Drives me nuts.
Is it even useful to think of it in terms of adverbs and adjectives in a case like this?
Not for multiword phrases, no.
an attractive eighteenth-century solid-gold necklace
Sometimes you can hyphenate if you must, like if there's some ambiguity otherwise, but it usually looks better without that.
an old sugar maple tree stump
The only adjective there is old. But when you have never learned that there can be anything else, you get random painful mistakes.
> In the teaching of high school English, the terms 'adjective' and 'modifier' seem to be used relatively interchangeably. From the point of view of linguistic theory, this usage reflects a lamentable lack of appreciation for the central linguistic distinction between function and form.
> Modifiers are linguistic expressions that serve a certain function---namely, to restrict or qualify some other expression. Adjectives, on the other other hand, are members of a syntactic category that is defined by certain formal properties. For instance, it is possible to derive adverbs from many adjectives (heavy, heavily; mere, merely; rough, roughly; sweet, sweetly). Like any other syntactic category, adjectives project intermediate and maximal projections (= adjective phrases, AP, AdjP).
From here. Save that link, you'll want it later. I promise.
There's more to be read there. It's good stuff.
> There is no one-to-one relation between modifiers and adjective phrases. Modifiers are not necessarily adjective phrases, as illustrated in (1).

(1) a. Adjective phrase a very aggressive driver
b. Adverb phrase They drive very aggressively.
c. Prepositional phrase the desk next to the window, they arrived on time
d. Noun phrase They will arrive Monday night
Conversely, adjective phrases are not necessarily modifiers. For instance, the adjective phrase in (2) is the predicate of a small clause.
That's college level English in this country.
High school and earlier never get it right.
And nobody takes English grammar in college.
Except linguistics students.
So it's very, very frustrating to answer questions correctly in the face of the pushback by folks convinced they're right because that's what they learned in the fifth grade.
"syntactic category that is defined by certain formal properties" is not something ANYBODY shy of university linguistics students is ever, ever taught.
You can't go back to the grade-school analyses. They break down horribly.
> Not everything that functions as modifier in clause structure is an adverb; though some grammars and dictionaries take that view, it falls apart under close analysis and serious grammarians have mostly abandoned it.
Wrote DW256 in his ELL answer.
There's so much schlock on the internet you can always find something daft as a doorknob supporting your view. And that seems to justify being obdurate about it.
He's right, and it's exhausting to have to retrain everybody who never got past fifth-grade levels of grammatical analysis.
04:20
@tchrist "Bien/fermement attaché/fixé" I guess.
04:31
Btw I guess you mean "libre"; doesn't work with "à". "À l'air libre" works though, but unrelated.
Nevertheless "libre" is not apt at describing a container which is not secured in this context. You simply need "mal retenu" something.
Or the equivalent of "wobbling", like "chancelant".
Anyways.
 
5 hours later…
09:40
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer (71): What do you call the upper part of a robe?‭ by topreplicas‭ on english.SE
10:18
Help. My dad, my bro, and I are going to the US and Canada next September, and I cannot even speculate what we're gonna eat.
We aren't going to McDonald's nor KFC, are we?
11:09
@DannyuNDos it's difficult to believe but Americans occasionally do have things besides steaks and burgers for their meals
11:24
I bet you're referring to pizzas?
Root beer with pizza, mmm!
 
2 hours later…
13:23
Dear diary, today I spent half an hour troubleshooting a speaker before turning it on.
It was a humbling experience
From an article in The Atlantic:
> When I tell people in the U.K. that I’ve moved there from the U.S., many respond with something to the effect of “Why on Earth would you do that?”
This surprises me. Is the UK somehow becoming a hellhole?
@alphabet maybe they whine a lot
1st world problemers
Can never enjoy the simple luxuries of life, like how much the price of groceries will spike after your senile president insults America's senile president
the grass is always greener effect
It's always raining in England, they can't survey grass properly
true dat
13:31
Although Raisi is not senile, not exactly. Boorish? Lacking for literacy?
@M.A.R. We also eat bastardized versions of other cuisines. Google shows me a number of "Persian" and "Korean" restaurants nearby, most of which (I assume) serve things only loosely related to actual Iranian and Korean food.
You know it's "authentic" when the menu is clearly written by a non-native speaker
@alphabet You can't rely on that. You might accidentally get something Japanese made or something
I went to an authentic Korean place a month or two ago, and the thing I noticed most about the menu is how weirdly they spelled the Korean words in English, like "Bi-bim Bab" (which I usually see written as "bibimbap")
13:47
It is interesting how restaurants often follow certain conventional romanizations that you don't find elsewhere. Everyone calls it "Peking duck," not "Beijing duck," even though by now a lot of younger people (I suspect) don't know what "Peking" means.
That's the old name
I wonder how old the places that serve that are, or if they're just copying other older restaurants
Exactly. But everywhere except restaurants has switched over.
I only recently learned where "Bombay" is. It turns out it's just the old name of Mumbai.
I guess what really bothers me is that the Korean place had (for example) "Bul-Go-Gi" and directly underneath "Squid Pork Bulgogi"
4 hours ago, by Dannyu NDos
Help. My dad, my bro, and I are going to the US and Canada next September, and I cannot even speculate what we're gonna eat.
In any case, I really hope they don't come to America just to eat Korean food lol
13:54
@Laurel isn't it... Bul-Go-Gi!
Restaurants should name their dishes by the reactions they suggest.
The cheeseburger "Mmm that sounds good"
@Mitch Now I'm thinking about Yu-Gi-Oh!
The bacon double cheeseburger: the "Awesome" burger
The bacon double cheeseburger with onion rings, jalapeños, and a fried egg on top "No I really shouldn't... Oh who's kidding who here we know this is the one" burger
The mint green shamrock shake: "We know no one is going to get this but corporate says so" milkshake
@Laurel Mission Accomplished!
I was going to remark that they could probably go to a Korean restaurant in the US to taste some new food
I can't in fact think of where the nearest McDonalds or KFC is. Or one at all.
Another place in the same building I went to had Korean-Japanese fusion, but that might still be pretty close to what they're used to
@Mitch Well, I do know where several are
I have a feeling that if you want to start up an Asian restaurant, you just have a small choice of the import food distributor and that's what you serve. Eg Thai? Sure but you'll also have to serve some sushi and Chinese egg rolls.
At least that's the trend I think I see
@Laurel I am -very- aware of exactly where Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts are
There are a lot of places that serve a mix of Asian-American cuisines. Perhaps because the Japanese in the US were not very inclined to market themselves as Japanese around WWII, and thus had "Chinese" restaurants. That's where we get fortune cookies from
14:06
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@Laurel yeah that sounds plausible
Also people come in and ask for pad Thai and then also sushi, not keeping them all straight. At least that's my theory
Same thing for middle Eastern restaurants... A Turkish or Armenian restaurant has to serve falafel and baba ghanoush even though those are not served in Turkey or Armenian
I think
Maybe
I don't know
Pretty sure
I've never been to Armenia or Turkey
I'm sure they'd like falafel and baba ghanoush
@Laurel Similarly, in 1942 Chinese stores put up large "Chinese" or "We are Chinese" signs in their windows so that they would not be confused with the Japanese. My wife's parents, independently, were rounded up and sent to the camps.
Children being sent to internment camp (i.e., prison) in 1942.
What happened with Japanese Americans during WWII wasn't right
14:24
Yes, and that's an understatement. They had to leave their homes with what they could carry. My mother-in-law's family lost their house in Portland OR, father-in-law's a farm in the Imperial Valley CA.
Yeah… I guess we can at least be glad that after WWII the perception of Japan/Japanese people recovered to the point where I'd say most of America looks at Japan favorably now. There will always be racists but I think they're a small minority currently
Like the anti-Japanese propaganda from WWII seems pretty shocking now
There's a Tom Lehrer song for everything
@Laurel I think there may be more racism in this country than you imagine.
"It's really quite a strain"
@Robusto despite all the heat in the air (if that's a mixed metaphor I can make), it's getting better
maybe going in reverse in some places? but for the most part getting better
14:44
@Robusto I mean, maybe? But I see a lot of people being fascinated by Japan and its culture, and when you look at how many people enjoy anime, that's apparently over half of the US (of course you can be racist against the Japanese and still watch anime, but it's something—and you can be not racist and not enjoy anime too)
@Mitch I hope you're right. But I think your impression is at least partly from where you live.
@Laurel I do think that many hardcore American anime fans--the "weeb" types--hold extremely stereotypical and reductive views of Japanese culture.
@Laurel When my wife and I moved from Chicago to St. Louis we stopped with our four-month-old son at a restaurant just north of St. Louis. The looks we got in Southern Illinois were universally disapproving, and no wait staff came over to serve us. We left of our own accord after about half an hour.
@Robusto What year was that? Your son is probably older than me
@Robusto well... this is going to start kind of weird... if I were black (or Muslim or most any ethnicity)... and you asked me at what time period of the US I'd want to live in... it would have to be now or in the future. none in the past.
In other news... -finally- it's snowing here.
Snow is great! Snow is great! Snow is... OK I'm tired of it now.
@Robusto There are lots of mixed marriages nowadays in the south.
Baptist and Presbyterian
Even a handful of Democrat/Republican.
Wait a minute... Chicago is one of the -worst- locations for ..._handwaves_ ... racism.
Boston even worse.
14:55
But I would be surprised to see someone being ignored at a restaurant for being Asian (or a "mixed" family?) today or at any point during my lifetime
But that's a whole nother thing
@Mitch is it?
@Laurel as far as data science goes: lots of real estate 'redirection' (selection of houses by race) and white and black gangs have very strict street boundaries (yay for rectilinear street plans!).
is that called red-lining?
red-shirting is where you keep someone back a year to increase performance in ones group just by being a year older
'red-lining" sounds right
Hmmm
but as to Boston, MLK said that it was worse than Atlanta Chicago?.
14:58
Of course, being racist against blacks is another story. I think that's alive and well in many parts of the country unfortunately
@Laurel better doesn't (necessarily) mean good
@Mitch I thought red shirting was where you killed someone off shortly after they appeared on screen
MLK found Boston worse than what he'd experienced before can't remember if was Chicago or Atlanta... did he go to Atlanta -after- theology school in Boston?
@Mitch I didn't mean "well" as in "better" but rather that the racism seems to not be at risk of dying out any time soon
@Laurel Red-shirting is where the British all wore red shirts to hide the blood when they're shot
15:02
@Mitch Now, I think we can at least say we're not that racist against the British anymore at least
But even with racism against blacks, I think things have gotten better since MLK, since we don't have enforced segregation and people feel bad about racism
Most people anyhow. Certainly not everyone…
@Laurel I feel, like with a lot of controversies nowadays, there's much less media limitation and so a lot of things being said that are frankly immature unscreened unedited thoughts so that it sounds like everyone is an asshole.
Everyone -is- an asshole, just they're better and better at keeping it to themselves
in person
but nowadays you can just say any half-assed thought out loud
Yeah both of those ideas seem to be true
Also I have to wonder how much of our perception is the media finding the worst in the country and trying to make it sound like a huge problem
@Laurel Most of the anger DEI is coming from a very vocal right.
(there are difficulties with DEI but mostly it's a good thing)
I wish I could understand why they have so much of a problem (I think we had this same conversation within the last month or two)
15:29
@Laurel Mid-80s. And both my sons are no doubt older than you.
@Robusto granted
@Mitch Whoa, that's going a bit too far, sir.
of course those marriages don't tend to last long
Opinions by famous authors about Jane Austen:
@Mitch I confess I could never write an opinion on Austen because I have never been able to get through one of her novels.
@Robusto Yeah, they must both be. Anyway I don't have a good feel for how racist people were in the 80s. My brothers (adopted half Asian born in the mid 00s) never experienced anything like that. But maybe they look too white (people think they look like my dad lol) for casual racism to affect them
(To be clear, they're not of Japanese origin)
15:37
@Robusto IKR? So many words. Needs an editor.
Books under 300 pages. Movies at most 90 minutes (exceptions for extra action scenes and the blooper reel)
@Laurel Both my sons are, of course, mixed race. They looked much more Asian when they were children, but you can still see it in them. People have a sense that they are not "white" but don't really get why. My grand-daughter is half Indian (subcontinent), one quarter Japanese, and one quarter European. She is gorgeous.
@Mitch Action scenes bore me these days. I keep thinking, "I wish they'd get this over with."
@Robusto They are the poorest of plot tropes.
fight scenes don't -do- anything except excite you.
@Mitch And so unnecessary.
I do get tired of a book or movie that's too long
and I do enjoy a fight scene... but it seems so stupid afterwards
A film like No Country for Old Men (if there are any like that one) had action sequences, but they were a natural expression of the plot, and they didn't go on forever. The tension was from the plot.
15:51
@Robusto Hmmmm, I think it's just hard to identify race/ethnicity once you get into halves or especially quarters, though this depends a little bit on what race/ethnicity. I don't think I would be able to identify my brothers as half Asian without being told and in fact our cousin kinda looks more Asian to me and I'm not even sure if he has any Asian ancestry (he's adopted from the side of his family that I'm not related to)
@Mitch ouch.
I have a confession to make. The best I've managed is a simplified English version of Pride and Prejudice when I was learning English
@M.A.R. It's no Dostoevsky
Her works (and their gazillion movie adaptations) always seemed like some important trend that I need to know about but that I am that much more naive for not knowing
I'd like to see them in a room together
Which is probably ironic given the impression I get from the shallow posh lives of her characters
15:58
@M.A.R. The movies make them out to be the original romance novel.
They -are- romance novels but in a style that really makes fun of them (there were lots of romance novels before during and after her time)
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16:25
@Mitch "How can we know the dancer from the dance?"
Surely we can recognize satire in Fielding, and of course in Swift, and absolutely in Pope. But how can we recognize satire (if it is that) in Austen when none of the people who actually read gush over her think the novels are at all funny.
Daily Quordle 713
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m-w.com/games/quordle/
Daily Octordle #713
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Score: 73
Crap, I say.
Daily Sequence Octordle #713
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Score: 65
It only shows how crappy the regular one was.
16:57
@Mitch I suggested this to my wife, whose knowledge of literature is encyclopedic, and who has read virtually all of Austen, and she laughed upon hearing it. "Uh, no," was her reply.
@Robusto there's no accounting for taste. There are lots of people who find Austen satirical
@Mitch "Many people are saying ..."
@Robusto ok then you're right
She could be wrong, but I doubt it.
@Robusto that's silly. You yourself said "none"
16:59
The quotation marks it wasn't me saying that. That was surely identifiable as satire in a way Austen's novels are not.
BTW, my wife said Austen used her novels to criticize middle-class pretensions, but she wouldn't have called that satire, just as you wouldn't call Dickens's novels satire, exactly.
17:55
Blossom Puzzle, January 7
Letters: A E G M N R T
My score: 340 points
My longest word: 12 letters
🏵 🌺 🌼 💐 🌸 🌹 🌻 💮 🌷 🏵 🌺 🌼
18:25
@Mitch well, I guess those people find the novels satirical because they can't conceive of anyone finding those characters to be 'real'. But since plenty of people do, there should be a fairly objective assessment of whether Austen was one such person, by someone who's plenty familiar with her works
It can't just be a simple matter of taste, unlike maybe Romeo and Juliet, which has sparked a similar debate
Is there some passage, some quote from any of her books where the dull display of pageantry is clearly shattered?
I don't know enough about her works to know the answer to that TBH
@Robusto at the risk of stating the obvious, those are flower emojis, not letters
People debate whether Romeo and Juliet is comedic satire played for laughs?
@tchrist I guess some folks find humor in tragedy?
@tchrist whether it's a legit love story or a satire on how 'true love' is BS
It's a tragedy, not a satire. What a strange notion!
Hey I don't really care either way. I can only say that young people are dumb.
18:33
@M.A.R. That is anachronistic. Next you'll be saying Hamlet is a satire on trust-fund babies who fear getting cut out of the will.
Were it satire, it would be a comedy.
We don't have suicide pacts where everybody dies at the end in comedies.
It's just that sort of comedy
Jaded already?
Briefly put: Tragedy progresses from order to disorder; Comedy progresses from disorder to order.
You have to be really unsympathetic to the characters to say it's not a tragedy. In that case why bother at all?
Maybe because it's required reading somewhere somewhen
18:38
@Robusto Which is why the universe is unappealably condemned by the second law of thermodynamics to be an ineluctable tragedy.
Twilight is an excellent satire on vampires that sparkle
They should only air children's shows on Saturday mornings.
The heat death is some time away. I can procrastinate until near the deadline.
Your own life is also a tragedy. That's just how life works.
What if I don't wanna support independent journalism with a subscription
18:58
@tchrist As Hawking wrote The Tragedy of A Brief History of Time.
@M.A.R. Then yours is a tragic case.
19:40
Given that people are indigenous only to Africa alone, what should we call various non-African peoples who migrated to some non-African region earlier than other people did? Given many migrations over time, what word or words can we use for the earlier migrants compare with the later migrants?
Beatcha peoples? :)
Wordle 932 3/6

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@M.A.R. I have heard the theory that Twilght is actually an allegory about the importance of "saving yourself for marriage": amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/oct/25/…
19:59
Daily Octordle #713
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Score: 76
Preoccupants.
Foremigrants.
Daily Sequence Octordle #713
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Score: 74
Urcolonists.
Endemics.
Daily Quordle 713
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m-w.com/games/quordle/
Oldmen.
 
2 hours later…
21:40
Rootl game #220

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My granddaughter is going to the moon! Well, her name at least ...
22:13
Rootl game #220

🟩🟩⬛⬛⬛🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

🟩⬛🟩⬛⬛⬛
🟩⬛🟩⬛⬛⬛
🟩⬛🟩🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛🟩🟩
⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩
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Hard to guess when the target word is unknown.
@jlliagre I was thinking that those would be hard for you.

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