English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

2:45 AM

This is an example sentence from H&P:

> Everybody didn’t support the proposal, but most did.

Ugly.

But can be seen in the wild.

Is this a British thing? Why do they think that this sentence is correct?

I'd astericize it

I think I have read this type of sentence even today.

I don't know whether it is British: it is informal, though, and ugly.

@alphabet He is amasingly lucent, until you listen to some long interviews with him, during which me rambles on tangents about how Jews and Judeo-Masons conspired with the Brits to destroy the Russian Monarchy and plunge Russia into an abyss en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory

@alphabet *ostracise

Ostracon

An ostracon (Greek: ὄστρακον ostrakon, plural ὄστρακα ostraka) is a piece of pottery, usually broken off from a vase or other earthenware vessel. In an archaeological or epigraphical context, ostraca refer to sherds or even small pieces of stone that have writing scratched into them. Usually these are considered to have been broken off before the writing was added; ancient people used the cheap, plentiful and durable broken pieces of pottery around them as a convenient medium to write on for a wide variety of purposes, mostly very short inscriptions, but in some cases very long. == Ostracism... ==

2:47 AM

You see sentences like this on occasion, but I'd always assumed that they were grammatically incorrect

Well, grammatically correct is an opinion, after all.

I consider them incorrect.

I also consider them ugly.

Indeed. H&P seem to be overly generous sometimes, though occasionally it's just that their examples are only valid in BrE

user 858770

Spoken verse isn't the same as written text. Cf bookword vs slang.

Bookword?

user 858770

book word

Noun: book word (plural book words)

(linguistics) A word that is encountered in writing but not usually in speech, which people may therefore not know how to pronounce (correctly).
(linguistics) A word that is borrowed into a vernacular from a closely related literary language, thus being etymologically related to native vocabulary, but not showing regular sound changes.

2:57 AM

Ah

3:38 AM

> This Russian river was called Δάϊκος (Daïkos) by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD.

@Cerberus Not an ostrich convention?

@alphabet German contamination, the great grandchildren of WW2 moles.

Everyone did not X ≠ Not everyone did X.

Basic logic failure.

They're doing negative raising in a way that invalidates the logic.

Germans do this constantly.

Everyone did not start their supper on time.

Not everyone started their supper on time.

Not the same.

@tchrist Similar.

But:

Everyone is not here yet.
Not everyone is here yet.

Those seem the same.

Hmm.

Somehow that sounds less bad.

I know, and I can't figure out why.

3:49 AM

Is it yet?

> Everyone is not yet here.

It's too late, I can't feel these things any more.

I am falling asleep at my desk.

Same.

It's 9 a.m.

4:05 AM

🙃

It's so terribly hot.

Only +21C outside, but the house had accumulated heat over the last 3 days, and it's hot inside the building.

This May, there wasn't a single day with even the slightest snowfall.

The whole month was like a summer month.

Bring Alan Turing back, and show him neural networks.

6:48 AM

@CowperKettle Black one.

@CowperKettle I can understand.

Xanne

7:07 AM

Wordle 711 3/6

🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Be lucky.

7:22 AM

@Vikas Good choice! You can travel the world unafraid of any local infections. Even go into Siberian woods unafraid of tick-borne encephalitis and Lyme disease.

But if you never feel pain, you can catch any disease and not feel it.

Not to mention all the other "pains" in life.

There are people who are genetically unable to feel pain.

18 hours ago, by CowperKettle

Gene of the day: FAAH-OUT - mutations in this gene make a person unable to feel pain.

It must be so far-out to have such a mutation

How are they defining "pain"?

Here's the published paper

First Noble Truth: Life is Suffering

7:34 AM

This is the संसार that doesn't end,
Yes it goes on and on, my friend,
Some beings started being it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue being it forever just because..

@s.H.a.R.p.R.i.F.t I don't know. It's almost oracular. Could be taken in many ways based on context

Do you think they're trying to downplay the hype of 'doomsdayers' while granting that existential risk is one of many risks (and so should be addressed) or are they putting doomsday risks first in that list?

@Mitch you're up late pal? What's going on.

The statement could be a dog whistle for -everything-

@user726941 sometimes you're just up late.

@user726941 I thought that was #2?

Nope you're right

It probably should say 'all existence is suffering -or- boredom'

Doesn't matter, different people may count differently...

Ie start from 0 etc

Ie 'fast and furious 10' is a movie that causes suffering of the soul, and is boring in its excess of stimulation'

Full disclosure, I have not yet seen it

So no spoilers please

I do know that they don't go to space. They did that already in #9

7:45 AM

Etymology of the day: armoire - Old French armarie, "cupboard or bookcase," with its Latin root armarium, "closet for storing implements or tools." The French word was borrowed earlier as ambry (late 14c.).

@user726941 like laws of thermodynamics?

'For every action the sum of all entropies is sufferig'

@CowperKettle yay! You found it!

You do seem a little different, almost a new person!

Congratulations

Spasibo!

The zeroth law is no law.

What about the negative first law?

Negative second law ...

@user726941 I think it is probably a g9d thing to have a little pain so that you're not always relying on the smell of burning flash to know to remove you hand from the top of the stove

@user726941 analytic continuation of laws

Recursively enumerable set of laws

People with diabetes lose toes and feet because of insensitivity to cold, heat, pain at the ends of their limbs.

7:49 AM

@CowperKettle de nada

Or pozhalvsta

Or however you say it

@CowperKettle exactly

@tchrist Logic doesn't necessarily apply to languages and can be perceived a different way. Tout le monde n'a pas soutenu la proposition, mais la plupart l'ont fait ("Everybody didn’t support the proposal") is fine, non ambiguous and what everyone use, Pas tout le monde a soutenu la proposition, mais la plupart l'ont fait ("Not everyone supported the proposal") is ugly, considered broken French and when you hear or read it, it's generally from non native speakers / suburban French.

Ukrainian word of the day: vshert (to smithereens, into small pieces)

0.999...law

And bullies continue their torture because they have no empathy for the pain they're causing

> Кохаю тебе мила, хоч я напився вщерт \\ Життя нас розлучило, та не розлучить смерть.

> I love you, honey, even though I got too drunk \\ Life separated us, but death will not separate us. (Google Translate))

7:52 AM

@jlliagre oh wow.. the opposite syntax from English

It's from a nice song titled "A Mexican" about a drunk Mexican who comes to the cemetery to bewail his fate.

Really it's kind of Ukrainian "noodle-Western song", in the country style. Funny.

Spaghetti western?

Yes

Those are just movies

7:53 AM

But I get the idea

@user726941 But even if you don't feel physical pain you can die?

I mean it's in Ukrainian but the style is "dark country" and some songs have funny quirky lyrics.

Like all those central Europeans playing dixie-land jazz

@Vikas but you can't die painfully.

ZWYNTAR - Човен (The Boat) [Official Lyrics Video]

►

7:54 AM

@Vikas yes. And injured. You just don't have (much) sensation of pain

They also have this song in the Vietnam-era US rock.

I love it.

There are English lyrics available on that YouTube page

@user726941 Good one.

@vikas I finally saw English Vinglish.

2

Found it on ... Cripes was it Netflix or Amazon prime? I can't remember

I've heard the name.

@Mitch And I think I have seen it.

The listeners only gradually understand that the boater is not really helping the song's hero to flee across the river, but is Charon (the death god) who is rowing them to the other world, because they died.

7:57 AM

Where she wants to learn English? And struggles.

A woman from Kolkota is embarrassed about her ability to speak English wel, when she comes to the US to help with a nieces wedding

Yeah.

@CowperKettle the passenger had different expectations for the trip

@Vikas I thought it almost a necessary film for sociolinguistics (but also the immigrant experience( but the plot was a little too... G-rated?

Bi they are some things in it that maybe you don't want to have to explain to a kid

Too predictable?

I watched it maybe three years ago. I don't remember much. But I remember it had happy ending.

Most of the linguistics sociology comes early in the movie, like

@Vikas yes a predictably happy ending. She makes a speech in English Which is an(expected) triumph for her

8:05 AM

Yeah predictable.

It was not as sappy as I expected it to be, so I think I liked it because it was better than my expectations

If you want unpredictable ending you may want to watch this: Tumbbad

imdb.com/title/tt8239946

It does capture the airplane/customs fears of not understanding very well for me (when I've been in a similar situation but going from English to some other language(

@Vikas now on my list

Also saw Kahaani (probably a suggestion from you a long time ago(

The one about the pregnant woman looking for her missing husband in Kolkota

@Mitch ) )

I'll take a look at English Vinglish. Rutracker.Org has a couple of torrents with it.

8:15 AM

dislike unbalanced parentheses

@jlliagre for me usually those are the worst kind of thinkos (my mind forgets I'm in an aside and I fail to close them off)

But this last error was from bad typing and not seeing it

@jlliagre but isn't that the Russians way to do smiley face?

You did it twice, I was wondering if that was something different.

Like some kind of smiley indeed.

@jlliagre no it was not intentional. I just didn't see it

No worries, I'm here to watch!

:-)

Of them you'll find lots of my typos. All natural in the wild not even trying to put them in

I find things like ',,,' for '...' abhorrent, but have great tolerance for my own typos

8:23 AM

Ellipsis?

Yeah

wondering why...

That may be a 'youthful' thing

I'm sure there's an entry on urban dictionary or some blog posts about it

@Mitch Oh, I misread for. Yes, ,,, is ugly.

babbel.com/en/magazine/comma-ellipses

8:52 AM

@Mitch Yeah it was also good. Less predictable I think.

Xanne

9:11 AM

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564101/….

People insensitive to pain live typically about 25 years. They may be all right if they constantly check for damage, accidental or self-inflicted. Not a good thing. Better to take the rich pill.

@Xanne No pain no gain.

Xanne

A lawyer used AI to write a brief for a client who was suing an airline for some harm a drink cart had done to his knee. ChatGPT created a whole slew of fake referencesx-sort of made them up from bits and pieces of other cases. This

. . . . case could become part of the literature. so in the future you need a reliable set for research, which needs to be verified, protected, etc, That may or may not reduce the overall workload.

Perhaps solve with some application of digital trackt

tracking.

9:50 AM

> Screenshots attached to the filing appear to show a conversation between Mr Schwarz and ChatGPT.

"Is varghese a real case," reads one message, referencing Varghese v. China Southern Airlines Co Ltd, one of the cases that no other lawyer could find.

ChatGPT responds that yes, it is - prompting "S" to ask: "What is your source".

After "double checking", ChatGPT responds again that the case is real and can be found on legal reference databases such as LexisNexis and Westlaw.

It says that the other cases it has provided to Mr Schwartz are also real.

Brazenly lying, AI reproduces its model beautifully.

2

@Vikas LOL at Hon'ble Court

This tracker site is also blocked in Russia, but this is easily overcome with a VPN.

11:02 AM

If a country invades a neighbor and then pays a compensation, is the cost of damaged/destroyed military ships/tanks/planes etc included in the compensation, or is it considered "cost of materials expended in the course of the war" and is not compensated?

@jlliagre Sooner or later, specialists will come up with solutions for configuring neural nets in a way that would enable them to check the existence of evidence.

11:25 AM

@CowperKettle Or not. Sorting out genuine evidence from fabricated ones will be tougher and tougher as the latter become more and more convincing and common.

Fake news is not labelled as such, nor is fake evidence.

Maybe it will take decades to reproduce the neural connections that permit the discernment of more or less dependable information.

If a human lawyer is capable of checking a claim against a legal database, then an AI network might be too, with properly configurated architecture.

The architechture of the human brain is so complicated, very unlike (or already not?) artificial networks.

12:07 PM

> A man is visiting a prostitute when she is noticing he seems distraught.
She asks him what's bothering him. He tells her, "I sell furniture and if the furniture business doesn't pick up soon, I'll lose my ass". She replies, "That's a funny coincidence. If the ass business doesn't pick up soon, I'll lose my furniture!"

12:46 PM

@jlliagre All that is gold does not glitter, / Not all those who wander are lost.

Q: La tournure « Pas tout le monde (ne) peut… » est-elle correcte ?

@tchrist Tout ce qui brille n'est pas or, / Tout ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus.

11

Je pense que nous avons tous rencontré le cas de la tournure donnée en titre. Nous connaissons aussi les tournures équivalentes acceptées : Ce n'est pas tout le monde qui peut… Tout le monde ne peut pas… La tournure « Pas tout le monde (ne) peut… » semble profondément fausse sans que je puisse ...

Tout ce qui est en or ne brille pas. (I should have read closer.)

He's playing on All that glitters is not gold.

> All who have died are not living.
Not all who have died are living.

@tchrist Yes, that's what I initially read without paying enough attention.

@tchrist "Everyone who doesn't live is dead,,," ;-)

You don't need negative raising if you have raising of the dead.

1:01 PM

Resurrection.

@tchrist Verklärung.

Matter: positive dough, negative raisins.

You appear to be a matter horn of word associations today.

#Worldle #495 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
⭐⭐⭐🪙
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

🌎 May 31, 2023 🌍
🔥 19 | Avg. Guesses: 4.53
🟨🟩 = 2

globle-game.com
#globle

Ha, back in form!

Wordle 711 5/6

🟩⬛🟩🟨⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟨🟩⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Daily Quordle 492
8️⃣9️⃣
3️⃣6️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle

1:39 PM

Daily Octordle #492
5️⃣8️⃣
7️⃣🕚
🔟🕛
🟥6️⃣
Score: 73

I could have saved that one but I failed to notice some letters I had guessed correctly.

1:56 PM

@jlliagre 'lying' assumes belief (and stating the contrary of the belief for personal benefit.

lLMs aren't reproducing things that have a truth value, it is only recombing words tin sequence to be likely, whether it is connected to reality or not. It doesn't have anything to do with facts or beliefs or intention or anything like that

@CowperKettle one might create an LLM 'prover' that takes the random musings of an LLM and then attempts a web search on that string to see if it has been said before. That's not the same as extracting a reference from the original pieces that make up the sequence(which is a difficult thing to do)

2:23 PM

@Mitch Of course, I was joking.

क्या है Russia Ukraine विवाद ? जानिए अंकित सर से

> During the Moscow event, held in a converted industrial bakery, Putin was asked if he personally played video games.

“You probably don’t play on weekends,” a studio spokesperson remarked.

“I play on weekdays,” Putin jokingly replied.

Games on "Windows".

►

My Chemistry teacher (school days) explaining Ukraine conflict in Hindi.

Little surprised to see this video on YouTube.

2:50 PM

Watched it now. He basically explained the history and what's going on (when it started). Didn't give any personal opinions. Most probably for education purposes.

3:22 PM

Wordle 711 4/6

⬜⬜🟩⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟨🟨⬜
⬜🟨🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Daily Quordle 492
3️⃣6️⃣
🟥7️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle

Daily Octordle #492
5️⃣🔟
6️⃣🕛
8️⃣9️⃣
3️⃣🕚
Score: 64

In April 2023, Russia probably had the lowest monthly number of births in 14 years. The data are preliminary (compounded from all local statistics).

In September, we will see how the announcement of the partial mobilization in September 2022 affected the birthrates

The fall is not entirely due to the war. The whole age pyramid in Russia is wavy, and now we're going through a trough that was generated in 1992-1995

There is no precise data on the number of Russians who fled abroad in 2022. One reputable but not precise estimate is 600-800 thousand, another, less reputable, is "up to 1.5 million". Lack of proper statistic data.

In 1917-1920 some 1.5 to 2.1 millions fled Russia, by a conservative estimate. So even 600 thousand is quite a lot.

3:49 PM

@jlliagre sorry. Enough people say things like that seriously though

@Vikas His pronunciation is great, I can clearly hear all words. But of course I cannot understand them. But he looks like a professional lecturer.

At least it gives me practice in responding (because I still haven't figured out the quickest way to explain it

The teacher pronounces years in English, like "nineteen-ninety one" and then just switches back to Hindi instantly.

A fighter from Wagner Group returned to Russia from Ukraine and raped two girls, aged 10 and 12, threatening them with a pistol and a hand grenade. The girls returned home and promptly told everything to parents, and the man was arrested.

The Wagner Group refused to enlist him again, stating that "we cannot take him and let him die a hero after what he's done"

He returned alive, rich, and with his previous conviction cancelled, and yet he reoffended.

Neuroscientists should study what can be done to re-educate such people.

> The head of the Wagner PMC, Yevgeny Prigozhin, confirmed that the detainee on suspicion of abuse of schoolgirls in the Sovetsky district of Novosibirsk was a PMC fighter. Prigogine announced this today, May 31, at a meeting with journalists. ngs.ru/text/criminal/2023/05/31/72354800

user223626865

@CowperKettle 10 years old? EEEEWWW!!!

4:30 PM

Soviet WWII partisan / saboteur. Years of life: 1900 - 2000. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Starinov

He lived for 100 years and some months.

4:47 PM

@CowperKettle We all know the real threat to Russian kids is "LGBT propaganda"

4:59 PM

Daily Duotrigordle #455
Guesses: 36/37
1️⃣7️⃣ 3️⃣5️⃣ 1️⃣9️⃣ 1️⃣8️⃣
2️⃣1️⃣ 2️⃣0️⃣ 0️⃣8️⃣ 3️⃣4️⃣
3️⃣3️⃣ 0️⃣9️⃣ 3️⃣6️⃣ 1️⃣0️⃣
2️⃣9️⃣ 3️⃣2️⃣ 1️⃣1️⃣ 1️⃣2️⃣
3️⃣0️⃣ 2️⃣7️⃣ 2️⃣6️⃣ 2️⃣8️⃣
0️⃣5️⃣ 3️⃣1️⃣ 2️⃣5️⃣ 0️⃣6️⃣
1️⃣6️⃣ 0️⃣4️⃣ 2️⃣3️⃣ 2️⃣4️⃣
1️⃣4️⃣ 1️⃣3️⃣ 1️⃣5️⃣ 2️⃣2️⃣
https://duotrigordle.com/
Wow!
Guess all 32 Duotrigordle words in 37 tries!

@alphabet Yes..

M.A.R.

5:14 PM

@jlliagre . . . This is getting out of hand

And feet. We don't have enough digits for this

May 2023 has been the driest in Yekaterinburg's recorded history, with 0.5 mm of precipitation vs. the mean normal value of 47 mm. t.me/s/weather66

The previous lowest record for May was 2 mm.

It really felt like June the whole month.

5:33 PM

@CowperKettle Yeah. I liked him because his concepts of Chemistry were more clearer than other teachers. And he was very friendly. I also liked him because somewhere he knew I wouldn't be able to clear entrance exams for college and he indirectly mentally prepared me and others for the failure 😅 Whereas other teachers kept lying "you can do it everyone can do it just study more and more". He basically teaches students for entrance exams for colleges.

6:29 PM

On every podcast with Michael Kofman, his pronunciation of "Russian military" gets slightly shorter. By now it's down to "rushmiltary."

6:41 PM

@jlliagre I don't need another hobby.

2

6:56 PM

@Robusto Wordlesucht.

@jlliagre Also, ich suche keine Arbeit mehr.

7:44 PM

@Robusto ¿Trabajo? ¡Que no! Diversión.

8:41 PM

@jlliagre Diversión para los demás, o para tí, pero no para mí.

9:16 PM

@Robusto Vale.

📷 #WhereTaken🌎 #94 3/6
🟦🟦🟦🟦🟨⬆️
🟦🟦🟦🟦🟨⬆️
🟦🟦🟦🟦🟦🎉
⭐⭐⭐

wheretaken.teuteuf.fr

Premio Ramos Comunicaciones a Jean Guion

9:43 PM

@Vikas I was curious to see if I could find a YouTube video of one of my former teachers and finally found that one with my 6th and 7th grade French teacher :-)

►

@jlliagre ¿Creciste en España?

@Robusto No, solo de vacaciones.

Jean Guion es muy Francés.

They teach French is France too ;-)

@jlliagre Mais oui.

s.H.a.R.p.R.i.F.t

11:24 PM

@Mitch It's possible it's AIwashing, considering the OpenAI CEO signed. It was part of a more balanced piece on BBC/news: bbc.com/news/uk-65746524

@Mitch I speculate those businesses are starting to understand they need to be part of the solution to be able to help tailor the regulatory framework in a way that doesn't impede what they want to do too much.

They may not want a full blown "AI GDPR".

There are many things to worry about concerning AI before its potential reaches the possibility of an extinction level event. At the same time, discarding such a potential is not prudent imho.

Especially not discarding it outright. I find trivializing this possible outcome to be careless.

The fact the outcome might be poorly described or may match stuff in movies doesn't enable discarding it for such (lack of) reasons.

The constant reassuring by stakeholders and some people in the field doesn't reassure me at all.

Quite the contrary.

Anyways, that's my take.

Cheers.

TIL: English also and German also are related. I thought they just accidentally shared a common spelling. It never occurred to me to inquire further.

11:43 PM

@Robusto Indeed. German is descended from proto-Englishic.