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00:03
@jlliagre haha no I was talking about Plato
Who's that guy, he is in the chat?
That guy probably needs to take it down a notch
@jlliagre not in chat
not take it down a Nietzsche!
snort
Overrated
00:18
@Mitch The Phasis is (essentially) the easternmost place colonized by Greek city-states; they more or less controlled the black sea
(Also the easternmost point of what might be called the Mediterranean region)
00:43
@alphabet The Greeks were pretty insular
@jlliagre Famous Nietzsche quote: "That which kills me makes me deader."
2
00:58
"The Miller's Tale" (Middle English: The Milleres Tale) is the second of Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (1380s–1390s), told by the drunken miller Robin to "quite" (a Middle English term meaning requite or pay back, in both good and negative ways) "The Knight's Tale". The Miller's Prologue is the first "quite" that occurs in the tales. == Prologue == The general prologue to The Canterbury Tales describes the Miller, Robin, as a stout and evil churl fond of wrestling. In the Miller's Prologue, the pilgrims have just heard and enjoyed "The Knight's Tale", a classical story of courtly love, and...
I should read it
That which fulfills me makes me more full.
Cogito, ergo cogito.
@CowperKettle It's very funny.
TIL the most famous phrase in french is oh lá lá.
01:15
I had a dream in which I lived in India, and while I was talking with a friend and prepared to fetch back home a small electric generator which I had lent him, there came along a street a crowd of women and started pelting men with tiny stones, sand etc. It was a sect of women who considered men sinful/bad, unless they followed some strict precepts.
@user85795 It can't be that famous if you only just heard of it.
In that dream, dogs in India walked along with tiny green lizards on a leash. It was the latest fad among that city's dogs. To have your own tiny pet lizard on a leash.
Dogs are so vain
haha I'm kidding. Most dogs aren't like that.
Cats aren't vain either (again, on the whole). They just come across that way.
I mean they -are- better than everybody else.
01:19
@Mitch Cats condescend to receive food and shelter from humans. But don't ask for any special favors.
@CowperKettle Your dreams are very specific.
@Robusto I took twice the usual amount of vitamin B6 + Mg + Zn just before sleep
I think the first cat my family had when I was a kid was basically someone else's cat from a few streets over, and the cat just happened to wander to our house and maybe we fed it better?
It makes dreams vivid and helps recall them.
@Robusto I can't remember my dreams... I think they'd be as wild as that if only I could remember.
Mostly all I can remember is that maybe I went to the dentist?
@Robusto 'Nietzsche Was Wrong': Past Stressors Do Not Create Psychological Resilience - MedScape, 2020, based on a research paper published in the British Journal of Psychiatry
01:22
@CowperKettle I'm sure Nietzsche was wrong. Which is why I fabricated a quote of his that cannot be argued and is not open to equivocation.
@user85795 What meaning was given to that phrase? (by the way, it's Oh là là!, no grave accent on top of an a in French)
Sure there's a study on it, but I think it depends. Sometimes trauma helps teach you how to deal with trauma later, sometimes it just makes you feel bad and dysfunctional and maybe OCD or borderline or maladaptive.
@jlliagre Maybe not in -your- version of French
@Mitch If someone cuts off your leg it doesn't kill you but it sure doesn't make you stronger.
@Robusto Uh duh it makes your other leg stronger
See? Now you're equivocating.
I was trying to stop that shit.
01:25
I thought that wasn't allowed
That was my point.
@Mitch Not just mine, no version of French allows that accented letter, even less .
Hey, what the fuck is up with Scott Adams? Remember when he used to be funny, back when Dilbert used to be cute? Now he's just a right-wing moron.
What song has been sampled the most? It's either Tom Tm Club's the Genius of love....
-or- is it Good times by Chic?
OMG the Beastie Boys are so white bread.
@Robusto uh...I think he was always a rightwing asshole and vocal about it outside of his comic. It's just come to this now.
@jlliagre It might be an improvement just sayin
A little flair
why be so serious all the time
"can't do this, can't do that"
@Mitch I just don't understand this incipient rightwingnuttiness in otherwise smart people.
01:40
@Robusto I don't know ... maybe this latest video of Adams sayin stuff (I think I saw part of it earlier today) is much more explicit than things he's known for forever (being a right leaning dick)
Yeah, I didn't realize he was a Trump supporter in 2016.
All those Republican senators are well-educated
@Robusto Never trumpers wren't all that common.
Well...
actually...
I don't know anything
And all this time I was thinking Dilbert was just an engineer in a horrible company. I could relate to that.
Well, he was. And is.
01:45
Sad.
It's all part of his hate for bureaucrazy.
Go read all his "Dave the Black Engineer" strips.
I also think this is all deliberate.
He's trying to get deplatformed.
He wants to get canceled?
Yes.
So he can be a hero of the right wing? With an axe to grind?
I'm not positive that's why.
01:47
Why else?
Where's the win in this for him?
I think he wants to retire. He put out some vote thing polling whether he should just stop writing on his own or whether he should say increasingly outrageous things until he got fired. I'm sure you can guess which option the internet picked.
The world has grown weirder than I can imagine.
He's five and sixty.
But which one of those you get varies from day to day.
@Robusto You only just now noticed?
@tchrist No. It's a frequent lament I've been getting more strongly in touch with over time.
You have to be very, very, very careful what you say now. You have to use the language that they force you to use. It's all so Dilbertesque now that it's no longer funny.
In all workplaces and public fora.
01:52
Yeah. I'm constantly revising my language even in here, believe it or not, so that I may avoid being misconstrued by another form of True Believer.
And if you haven't been keeping up with the Pr{e,o}scribed Speech of the Day, then you're a goner. You will be sent to a re-education concentration camp.
Some of this is what's bothering him.
I can't account for the Trump stuff, though.
@Mitch Right, you cán write oh lá lá. @user85795 demonstrated it's perfectly doable.
@jlliagre So what exactly is the vocal difference between accent grave and accent ague? I'm damned if I can tell.
@jlliagre Thank you!
@Robusto On an a?
Well, is a different word.
01:56
On anything?
I just wonder if there is an audible difference.
But I don't think here it changes anything.
a, â and à are pronounced the same.
â used to be pronounced differently.
Sometimes I think you're just making all this shit up.
é, e, and è are pronounced differently
in general
Touché.
01:58
now do 'o'
That's the one that gets the circumflex the most.
Only o and ô exist
As in hôtel.
You know how in Spanish the first-person plural preterite looks the same as the present like hoy hablamos in the present and ayer hablamos in the past? This is also true, mostly, in Portuguese, but with a twist: falamos is present and falámos is preterite, but the Brazilians make no change in the pronunciation whereas the Portuguese themselves do do so.
@jlliagre Oh?
02:00
The one with á is a "close" a like in Spanish. The other one sounds more like when an American says "uh?".
Accents in Spanish / Portuguese play a different role than in French. We can have a word with multiple accented vowels while they can't.
Only if you don't count a diaeresis or a tilde as an accent mark. Which of course you shouldn’t. :)
Right, because French no longer has lexical stress, only prosodic stress.
Yes, I was talking about the grave accent used in Spanish to state an non regular stress, or differentiate a few words.
Acute, but yes.
Portuguese uses accent marks for both things: vowel quality like French does and lexical stress like Spanish does.
So you can have more than one?
02:04
No, because Portuguese is stress timed so unstressed vowels don't matter.
They always reduce.
I think there are some cases with both of either an acute or a circumflex as well as a vocalic tilde, though.
The grave they use only for contractions with a and the next word. Spanish a la becomes "a a" in Portuguese which contracts to à. Also with aquel(a(s)) etc.
That they only ever need to specify the quality of a single vowel in a word tells you a lot about their syllable/stress structure.
It tells you that only stressed vowels matter.
And there is just one of those per word, max.
> The acute accent and the circumflex accent indicate that a vowel is stressed and the quality of the accented vowel and, more precisely, its height: á, é, and ó are low vowels (except in nasal vowels); â, ê, and ô are high vowels. They also distinguish a few homographs: por "by" with pôr "to put", pode "[he/she/it] can" with pôde "[he/she/it] could".
They're using "low" to mean "open" and "high" to mean "close".
PT é = FR è, PT ê = FR é
So the acute accent makes it an "open" vowel and a circumflex makes it a "close" one, which are the kind you hear in Spanish and also the kind the English speakers slightly diphthongize at the end of a word.
But they're having a big vowel shift, starting in Lisboa.
Their word for milk is leite, but in Brazil it sounds more like if Spanish leche were leichi, but in Lisbon the "ei" becomes "ai", so it's just pronounced /lait/ like English light — and the final e is of course silent.
I often wonder if the same forces that acted on French are acting on Peninsular Portuguese.
02:20
I have always had a hard time with French having both a front and a back A, and these being phonemically distinct.
Because in no English dialect do both occur simultaneously.
It was only later that I learned that the front one in French is must closer to the one in English cat, but not quite.
This is also a notational confusion between American and British sources, so it's rough.
@tchrist There are regional variations. The back A is disappearing in France, and never was a thing in Southern France.
Québec French also has quite different vowels.
Because in the UK they transcribe ham with a front vowel as /ham/ which is /hæm/ in America vs harm with a back vowel as /hɑːm/ or in America /hɑɹm/.
French phonology is the sound system of French. This article discusses mainly the phonology of all the varieties of Standard French. Notable phonological features include its uvular r, nasal vowels, and three processes affecting word-final sounds: liaison, a specific instance of sandhi in which word-final consonants are not pronounced unless they are followed by a word beginning with a vowel; elision, in which certain instances of /ə/ (schwa) are elided (such as when final before an initial vowel); enchaînement (resyllabification) in which word-final and word-initial consonants may be moved across...
So when a Brit says /ham/ we "hear" them saying /hæm/ in our minds.
> The phonemic contrast between front /a/ and back /ɑ/ is sometimes not maintained in Standard French, which leads some researchers to reject the idea of two distinct phonemes.[27] However, the distinction is still clearly maintained in other dialects such as Quebec French.[28]

While there is much variation among speakers in France, a number of general tendencies can be observed. First of all, the distinction is most often preserved in word-final stressed syllables such as in these minimal pairs:
I wonder how Chaucer's name was pronounced in his time. Was it more like today's French /au/?
02:27
You mean current French "au"? That's just /o/.
I don't know what it was in his day.
> There are certain environments that prefer one open vowel over the other. For example, /ɑ/ is preferred after /ʁw/ and before /z/:

trois [tʁwɑ] ('three'),
gaz [ɡɑz] ('gas').[29]
The difference in quality is often reinforced by a difference in length (but the difference is contrastive in final closed syllables). The exact distribution of the two vowels varies greatly from speaker to speaker.[30]

Back /ɑ/ is much rarer in unstressed syllables, but it can be encountered in some common words:

château [ʃɑ.to] ('castle'),
Complicated.
The Brits use a front vowel for château. It's strange.
I think we may as well.
Ditto plateau, plateaux.
Plato
I was thinking the same.
@tchrist Yes.
Our own /æ/ is high, and sometimes getting higher. It often diphthongizes as well. There's a whole huge page about it. Man A's and mayonnaise and all that rot.
In the sociolinguistics of the English language, /æ/ raising or short-a raising is a phenomenon by which the "short a" vowel (listen), the TRAP/BATH vowel (found in such words as ash, bath, man, lamp, pal, rag, sack, trap, etc.), is pronounced with a raising of the tongue. In most American and many Canadian English accents, /æ/ raising is specifically /æ/ tensing: a combination of greater raising, fronting, lengthening, and gliding that occurs only in certain words or environments. The most common context for tensing /æ/ throughout North American English, regardless of dialect, is when this vowel...
English: Plato /ˈpleɪtoʊ/, French: Plateaux /plato/
02:35
We say /plæˈtow/ here.
For the plateau one.
Not for the Greek one.
Which you have written correctly.
I couldn't be arsed to hunt down a paste for the /ow/ diphthong. :)
@tchrist We say Platon /platɔ̃/
Yup.
It just hurts my brain to distinguish /a/ from /æ/.
But you can't use /æ/ in French or you've gone too far.
I can't speak for the Kaybeckers.
> In some dialects, particularly that of Europe, there is an attested tendency for nasal vowels to shift in a counterclockwise direction: /ɛ̃/ tends to be more open and shifts toward the vowel space of /ɑ̃/ (realised also as [æ̃]), /ɑ̃/ rises and rounds to [ɔ̃] (realised also as [ɒ̃]) and /ɔ̃/ shifts to [õ] or [ũ]. Also, there also is an opposite movement for /ɔ̃/ for which it becomes more open and unrounds to [ɑ̃], resulting in a merger of Standard French /ɔ̃/ and /ɛ̃/ in this case.[32][33]
> According to one source, the typical phonetic realization of the nasal vowels in Paris is [æ̃] for /ɛ̃/, [ɑ̃] for /ɑ̃/ and [õ̞] for /ɔ̃/, suggesting that the first two are unrounded open vowels that contrast by backness (like the oral /a/ and /ɑ/ in some accents), whereas /ɔ̃/ is much closer than /ɛ̃/.
There's an [æ̃] for ya. :)
Hein ?
So they claim.
No, it's true. Nasal vowels pronunciation varies significantly depending on the region and people.
but that doesn't affect understanding each other.
02:45
The ones for bon vin blanc are all easy for me to distinguish, but I think I may do sloppy things on the requisite un which should come at the start of that phrase.
It isn't the same as the Portuguese use.
French /œ̃/ is not easy for me, for whatever reason.
> Northern Catalan sometimes adds two loan rounded vowels, [y] and [ø̞], from French and Occitan (e.g. but [ˈbyt] 'aim', fulles [ˈfø̞jəs] 'leaves').
Yeah sigh.
At least Catalan only has phonetic nasalization like Spanish has, not phonemic nasalization like French and Portuguese.
> Phonetic nasalization occurs for vowels occurring between nasal consonants or when preceding a syllable-final nasal; e.g. diumenge [diwˈmẽɲʒə] (E) / [diwˈmẽɲd͡ʒe] (W) ('Sunday').
@tchrist You are not alone, Parisians can't pronounce it either. Only people from the South have this blessing.
If you're saying them right, the stressed vowels of Spanish words like mente and monte are both nasalized a little bit, at least in Spain.
@jlliagre I remember being taught not to worry about it too much, but most of my French teachers were Parisian speakers.
I don't know if he was serious or just kidding, but I remember that a Parisian said "un peigne??" when I told him I was going to buy un pain :-)
hah
I'm sure he was teasing.
But it shows how much the nasals vary from region to region.
> El mariquita se peina
en su peinador de seda.

Los vecinos se sonríen
en sus ventanas postreras.

El mariquita organiza
los bucles de su cabeza.

Por los patios gritan loros,
surtidores y planetas.

El mariquita se adorna
con un jazmín sinvergüenza.

La tarde se pone extraña
de peines y enredaderas.

El escándalo temblaba
rayado como una cebra.

¡Los mariquitas del Sur,
cantan en las azoteas!
I can't believe that my brain remembered that as "La" not "El" mariquita. :)
The bugs are "la" of course.
Queens, not so much.
Hell, I have no idea what the kids say now. Lorca died long ago.
I can't keep up with the current expectations for gender use amongst even regular kids, let alone que sean mariquitas. :)
03:26
> 1579 E. Spenser Shepheardes Cal. Apr. 155 Ah foolish boy, that is with loue yblent.
> c1386 G. Chaucer Miller's Tale 622 With that strook he was almost i-blent.
04:23
On this day in 1917, the first commercial jazz recording was released.
"Livery Stable Blues" is a jazz composition copyrighted by Ray Lopez (né Raymond Edward Lopez; 1889–1979) and Alcide Nunez in 1917. It was recorded by the Original Dixieland Jass Band on February 26, 1917, and, with the A side "Dixieland Jass Band One-Step" or "Dixie Jass Band One-Step" (a tune later better known as "Original Dixieland One-Step"), became widely acknowledged as the first jazz recording commercially released. It was recorded by the Victor Talking Machine Company in New York City at its studio at 46 West 38th Street on the 12th floor – the top floor. == History == The Origi...
> Alcide Patrick Nunez was born in St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana, United States.[2][3] His parents were Victor Nunez and Elisa Nunez Chalaire and were of Isleño and French Creole descent respectively.
05:03
Wow. The new updated version of the Chrome browser takes unused tabs to sleep, freeing up memory. Thank you, programmers.
05:42
The sight that makes me pinch myself
Is Urals in the Spring:
As if an overzealous elf
Commanded by a King
Or by the President himself
Applied his magic skills
And where the blizzard used to groan
The goldfinch spreads his trills
06:24
> His approaching operation to reattach his skull to his spine in June 1995 "was frightening to contemplate. ... I already knew that I had only a fifty-fifty chance of surviving the surgery. ... Then, at an especially bleak moment, the door flew open and in hurried a squat fellow with a blue scrub hat and a yellow surgical gown and glasses, speaking in a Russian accent."
Somebody should start a Biographordle game server with such bits from Wikipedia, asking users to guess the person.
> The man announced that he was a proctologist and was going to perform a rectal exam on Reeve. It was Robin Williams, reprising his character from the film Nine Months.
 
2 hours later…
08:12
Wordle 617 4/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
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Came out all right.
08:46
Daily Octordle #398
9️⃣4️⃣
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Score: 67
Better than I usually do.
09:26
China has detected a German spy balloon
 
1 hour later…
11:14
Johnson Bademosi (born July 23, 1990) is an American football cornerback and special teamer who is currently a free agent. He was signed by the Cleveland Browns as an undrafted free agent in 2012. He was a member of the football, rugby, and track and field teams at Gonzaga College High School and went on to play college football for Stanford University. == College career == Bademosi was a three-year starter at cornerback for Stanford. He recorded his first career interception against Washington during the 2010 season. Bademosi went on to be selected to the 2012 NFLPA Collegiate Bowl. He a...
I wonder how this surname is pronounced.
Beid Mosi?
Bad-eh-moshi?
Bad-eh-mosi?
 
3 hours later…
13:52
I got a question for you guys. In Latin, "spectate" is the adverb form of "spectus", which means "watched". Therefore, "spectate" can basically be translated into English as "in a watched manner". "spectatissime" is the superlative form of "spectate". Which would be better to say "in a most watched manner" or "in the most watched manner"? This is rather a formality, but I need to write something down in my Latin notebook.
14:33
@MichaelRybkin You could say either in English. It would depend on the context. If you need to write something down, try "in a/the watched manner."
#Worldle #401 1/6 (100%)
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⭐⭐
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
Polling the question on the flags didn't work today. Oh well ...
@MichaelRybkin * "in a/the most watched manner"
🌎 Feb 26, 2023 🌍
🔥 44 | Avg. Guesses: 4.87
🟥🟥🟩 = 3

globle-game.com
#globle
Wordle 617 3/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛🟨
🟩⬛⬛🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
@Robusto Thank you.
#Worldle #401 5/6 (100%)
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🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨⬆️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨↖️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉

https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
@CowperKettle Have you been doing the Africa quiz game?
14:49
No, I was doing.. Twitter browsing, reading neuroscience news.. running ParkRun with pancakes
With Maslenitsa pancakes and tea after the run.
It was the season's last cold morning, minus 14°C
@CowperKettle It takes five minutes.
Only they renamed ParkRun to 5verst, with versta being an old Russian length measurement
@Robusto And I wrote a blog item about a new discovery in Parkinson's disease genetics
How long was a versta?
I don't know :)
A verst (Russian: верста, versta) is an obsolete Russian unit of length defined as 500 sazhen. This makes a verst equal to 1.0668 kilometres (3,500 feet). == Plurals and variants == In the English language, verst is singular with the normal plural versts. In Russian, the nominative singular is versta, but the form usually used with numbers is the genitive plural verst – 10 verst, 25 verst, etc. – whence the English form. A mezhevaya versta (Russian: межевая верста, literally 'border verst') is twice as long as a verst. "The verst of the 17th century was 700 sazhens or 1.49 km as against the 500...
Oh, it's almost equal to a kilometer
> "The verst of the 17th century was 700 sazhens or 1.49 km as against the 500 sazhens or 1.067 km it became at the time of Peter the Great."
Peter the Great luckily shifted it close to 1 km.
Old Russian units of measurement, with a Vitruvian muzhik to scale.
Looks kinda well dressed for a muzhik, ne?
14:57
Ah! Yes, looks like a strelets
Streltsy (Russian: стрельцы́, IPA: [strʲɪlʲˈt͡sɨ], lit. 'shooters/riflemen'; sg. стреле́ц IPA: [strʲɪˈlʲet͡s]) were the units of Russian firearm infantry from the 16th to the early 18th centuries and also a social stratum, from which personnel for streltsy troops were traditionally recruited. They are also collectively known as streletskoye voysko (стрелецкое войско, riflemen army). These infantry troops reinforced feudal levy horsemen or pomestnoye voysko (поместное войско). == Origins and organization == The first streltsy units were created by Ivan the Terrible sometime between 1545 and 1550...
17th century riflemen
Or musketeers, since rifles were probably very rare.
> The streltsy became something of a "praetorian element" in Muscovite politics in the late 17th century.[2] In 1682 they attempted to prevent Peter the Great from coming to the throne in favor of his half-brother, Ivan.
I unknowingly cut the tail of a house lizard. It was near door and when I opened the door I heard something unusual and I realized it. Too bad.
And so Peter the Great executed a lot of them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morning_of_the_Streltsy_Execution
They usually keep roaming around doors.
@Vikas Sorry to hear that!
Will it grow back?
@CowperKettle I think I've seen tails growing back on lizards.
Tail kept moving for about two minutes. Lizard ran away for safety.
15:02
@Vikas Some lizards drop their tails as a defense mechanism.
> Most species of skinks have long, tapering tails they can shed if predators grab onto them. Such species generally can regenerate the lost part of a tail, though imperfectly. A lost tail can grow back within around three to four months.[5] Species with stumpy tails have no special regenerative abilities.
@Vikas I had a dream last night, in which I was in India, and dogs there considered it fashionable to walks with their small lizard on a leash.
14 hours ago, by CowperKettle
In that dream, dogs in India walked along with tiny green lizards on a leash. It was the latest fad among that city's dogs. To have your own tiny pet lizard on a leash.
> Skinks are characterized by their smaller legs in comparison to typical lizards and are found in different habitats except arctic and subarctic regions.
Cool. So they are everywhere.
Italian three-toed skink
@Robusto House lizard is call Gecko I think? I just read they can grow back tails.
Daily Quordle 398
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quordle.com
Crap.
@Vikas I don't know what you call a house lizard in India.
We don't have "house" lizards here.
Chhipkali is a Hindi word we use here.
@CowperKettle I quite didn't get it. Did dogs have their own pet lizards?
Google translates છિપકલી from Gujarati as, simply, lizard.
15:13
The common house gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus) is a gecko native to South and Southeast Asia. It is also known as the Asian house gecko, Pacific house gecko, wall gecko, house lizard, tayoto, chipkali or moon lizard. Most geckos are nocturnal, hiding during the day and foraging for insects at night. They can be seen climbing walls of houses and other buildings in search of insects attracted to porch lights, and are immediately recognisable by their characteristic chirping. They grow to a length of between 7.5–15 cm (3–6 in), and live for about 7 years. These small geckos are non-venomous and not...
@Robusto here is precise details.
So I think they grow tails back.
I vaguely remember I've seen some imperfect tails on lizards. Most probably they lost it and it was growing back.
@Vikas Yes
Word of the hour: chumming
@CowperKettle Very funny
@Vikas It felt like something normal, in the dream :)
And then I was attacked by an Indian female sect that hates men.
They just went along the street, slapping and throwing tiny pebbles and dust at men.
15:16
@CowperKettle I must say that in dreams everything seems very normal no matter what happens. Only when we wake up we realize it was fantasy.
I gave them all the coins I had in my pockets, but they only laughed.
They asked for my business card, to call later for a big sum of money, but I pretended not to understand.
female sect?
Yes. Some religious sect of women who walk the streets and attack men.
I dunno why, maybe to honor some minor goddess
Oh. Sect is a word.
Maybe they do it only on some religious holiday? I don't know, I didn't ask :)
15:19
@CowperKettle Haha.
@CowperKettle I think I'm unaware of it.
In Greek mythology, maenads (; Ancient Greek: μαινάδες [maiˈnades]) were the female followers of Dionysus and the most significant members of the Thiasus, the god's retinue. Their name literally translates as "raving ones". Maenads were known as Bassarids, Bacchae , or Bacchantes in Roman mythology after the penchant of the equivalent Roman god, Bacchus, to wear a bassaris or fox skin. Often the maenads were portrayed as inspired by Dionysus into a state of ecstatic frenzy through a combination of dancing and intoxication. During these rites, the maenads would dress in fawn skins and carry a thyrsus...
These women were similar, apparently.
Probably
There are no spirals in the picture. Only circles.
So don't get yblent into seeing spirals here.
16:00
Daily Octordle #398
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Score: 66
 
5 hours later…
20:50
Word of the day: shirk. Not the usual meaning, but this one, as defined by Wiktionary:
> (Islam) The unforgivable sin of idolatry.
Islamic law typically recognizes a further distinction between "major shirk" and "minor shirk."
Curiously, the etymology of this term appears unrelated to the etymology of the ordinary sense of "shirk"; it's just a direct transliteration of the Arabic word.
@alphabet what's the Arabic word for forgiveable sins of idolatry
A number of other transliterated Arabic words are commonly used by Muslim people to refer to Islamic concepts in English, e.g. mustahabb, zina, etc.
Seems reasonable
(Of course, the line between "English loanword from Arabic" and "Arabic word used within an English text" is rather porous.)
It took me forever to realize that a 'wrap' was the English word choice chosen to replace 'burrito'.
I kept thinking that when you ordered a wrap you got something that practically identical to a burrito.
Everytime
Like I would have preferred a burrito but all they had was wraps so I'd get that
21:05
@Mitch The two are somewhat different. A "burrito" is generally vaguely Mexican, whereas a "wrap" is often just a sandwich but wrapped in a tortilla.
I suppose calling it a little donkey would sound a little off in English
(At least in AmE)
The absolute worst is people who pronounce "taco" as /'tæ.koʊ/, with the vowel sound from "tack."
@alphabet The Brits do that because they don't see an R in the world.
21:12
@tchrist I thought it was because its the trap side of the bath-trap split
@Mitch Nope.
@Mitch There's a trap in my bath? Glad I take showers instead.
@Robusto within the world could stand to have some more of that
It's arsinign.
21:14
@Mitch In the US, that pronunciation of "taco" is often associated with areas like the Midwest that have very few Spanish speakers, thus causing the pronunciation to drift further from the original Spanish.
Then again, Mamma Mia the movie exists
Beware of what you wish for
@alphabet I've never heard taco pronounced with an ash. At least in the US.
@alphabet the Spanish 'a' is not very natural/common for AmE speakers
I think all those Taco Bell commercials have had an impact on the language.
@Mitch Nonsense!
FATHER
21:16
Maharajah!
In Non-borrowings?
FATHER is neither FADE nor FAD.
There are infinitely many English words with that vowel in it.
@tchrist oh haha yeah
@Robusto Family Guy made a joke about this (very real) pronunciation, though I don't think anyone says "tortilla" the way these people do: m.youtube.com/watch?v=PD-7WA7AHww
Even Tony Curtis pronounced it fodder.
@alphabet That could be the writers looking for a joke.
21:19
I just find when I hear a jarring /æ/ used instead of an /a/ that it is often a foreign word.where /a/ is expected
Honestly, I've been all over this country and I've never heard taco pronounced tacko. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it must be some remote corner of Appalachia, one that can't even afford a Waffle House.
Of course these kinds of statements of mine would make more sense if I had examples (other than taco)
@Robusto Same here. It sounds British to me
See, I won't go to locales in Appalachia that don't have a Waffle House. I mean, come on.
Wæffles just don't taste as good
@Mitch Yes. And honestly, Brits mispronounce everything. They act like all foreign words must be translated through their Pronunciation Receivers before they can be spoken.
21:22
Waeppolis.
@Robusto That's correct. They believe that you can and should pronounce any sequence of Latin letters using only British rules, no matter their provenance.
I swear to God ...
Stuck o’fuckades included.
It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so godawful smug about it.
They think we've been misundereducated about how to spicky Inglidge.
@tchrist IIRC English (particularly AmE) is one of the only languages that tends (or tries) to preserve both pronunciation and orthography in loanwords.
21:27
@alphabet The opposite of that is ... wait for it ... yes, Japanese!
I suppose English pronunciation is already so disconnected from orthography that people are OK adding new exceptions.
@Mitch Which American states lack Taco Bells?
May 23, 2015 at 13:23, by Robusto
Hence word processor -> waapuro
Japanese.
@alphabet Yes, in part. The problem is that Americans strip off the dispositive diacritics signalling alternate pronunciations, rendering them unpronounceable without those marks which were SPECIFICALLY placed there to indicate the pronunciation. Cure a cow (the blue kind) and all that jizz.
They practice some form of tesselation of phonemes so that they will fit in the five accepted vowel sounds. And they just shear off everything else.
21:37
Alas for Čapek, Hafþór, Ceaușescu, Gonçalves, François, Íñigo, Dalí, and Noël Coward.
@tchrist Also the coexistence of multiple different transliteration systems for the same language, giving us "the city of Beijing" but "Peking duck."
This is particularly bad with Ukrainian city names. Took me a while to realize the "kh" in "Kharkiv" is not the /k/ sound as in "khaki."
@alphabet Because we don't have /ɕ/ or /ʐ/ or /ʈʂ/ as a phoneme in English, amongst other things.
@alphabet It's just /x/.
Also: the Ukrainian pronunciation of "Kyiv" involves a sound (for "v") that I can't figure out how to get my mouth to make.
@alphabet I believe they use an approximant that falls between English /b/ and /v/ there. Several European language groups have that, but not English.
The voiced labiodental approximant is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. It is something between an English /w/ and /v/, pronounced with the teeth and lips held in the position used to articulate the letter V. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨ʋ⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is P or v\. With an advanced diacritic, ⟨ʋ̟⟩, this letter also indicates a bilabial approximant, though the diacritic is frequently omitted because no contrast is likely.The labiodental approximant is the typical realization of /v/ in the Indian South...
But I'm not completely certain. I don't know Slavic phonology.
The b/v split is rather arbitrary and honored differently in just about every dialect of every language everywhere.
21:49
It might also be the sound heard in Spanish lobo (wolf) or cueva (cave), which is also a labial approximant.
@Robusto Not in Spanish. :)
Yes.
@tchrist Well, there it is ignored.
The voiced bilabial fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨β⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is B. The official symbol ⟨β⟩ is the Greek letter beta. This letter is also often used to represent the bilabial approximant, though that is more precisely written with a lowering diacritic, that is ⟨β̞⟩. That sound may also be transcribed as an advanced labiodental approximant ⟨ʋ̟⟩, in which case the diacritic is again frequently omitted, since no contrast is likely. It has been proposed...
Both those two sounds are said to occur in Ukrainian.
But the fricative and the approximant versions aren't quite the same. The approximants are always harder for us to "hear" in our minds.
Yes. They drop into the slot marked B or V.
Someday I will be able to figure out how IPA symbols correspond to actual mouth movements. Tricky, of course, because of the difference between phonemics and phonetics.
I don't think there are enough IPA symbols to produce all the sounds. There just aren't.
21:55
Wordle 617 4/6

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Daily Quordle 398
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quordle.com
Daily Octordle #398
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Score: 60
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