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2:13 AM
> Ælc stæf hæfð þreo ðing: nomen, figvra, potestas, þæt is, nama and hiw and miht... Hiw, hu he gesceapen byð.
@Cerberus The OED has just fleshed out its entry on figura as a term used in palaeographic contexts. Do you know it?
 
Hi! I'm really bad at this. Because I noticed some learner never pronounces the endings of verbs in the simple past, I had to realize the ending is not always the same, so I read "...f the base form ends in an unvoiced consonant sound other than /t/ then the ending is pronounced /t/ (as in capped, passed); otherwise the ending is pronounced /d/ (as in buzzed, tangoed)". Therefore is "z" a "voiced consonant"??
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore The sound is, yes.
 
Ok, thank you, these voiced/unvoiced references threw me off.
 
Hm.
 
Thought it meant "not sounded" something.
 
2:19 AM
Le voisement est une qualité (ou propriété) de certains sons de la parole. Un son est voisé si sa production s’accompagne d'une vibration des cordes vocales et sinon, il est non voisé. Tout locuteur peut facilement faire l’expérience de ce phénomène en plaçant sa main sur sa gorge (au niveau de la pomme d'Adam) puis en prononçant successivement « ssssss » (non voisé) et « zzzzzz » (voisé). Dans la tradition francophone, on utilise le terme sonorisation (opposition sourd / sonore), voisement étant un anglicisme. Les voyelles, étant par essence portées par la voix, sont naturellement voisées (même...
In voisé you have a voiced /z/ in the middle there, but in voici, you have an unvoiced /s/ in the middle there.
The English word ice can be used as a verb; it ends in an unvoiced consonant so the past-tense inflection iced also must do so, means the /t/ sound.
In contrast, the English word haze can also be used as a verb, and because its final consonant is already voiced, its past-tense inflection must also be so, meaning hazed ends in the /d/ sound not in the /t/ sound the way iced does.
 
It's easier to understand with the contrast between "s" and "z" sounding things. But "to like", that's unvoiced too.
 
That's right.
 
Anyways, I just realized these differences in the way this is pronounced after 30+ years of speaking the language. And of course I do pronounce these correctly. It's just I was going to suggest the person always add "de" (French) strongly at the end of the verbs then I realized I couldn't advise this.
So thanks!
 
In Spanish we call these sounds that are either consonantes sonoros for what English calls "voiced" vs consonantes sordos for what English calls "unvoiced".
 
2:26 AM
Yes.
 
Which is "deaf", which is odd if you translate to English, but so it is.
 
It makes more intuitive sense to me than "unvoiced".
 
Yes. I first learned my technical phonological terms while studying in Spain, so I had to learn brand new ones in English for their translations afterwards, and these never made as fine sense to me.
I didn't have anything existing in English to map those to, and you don't think that way anyway. There are various subject areas that work like that because I learned them only in a monolingual Spanish cultural context. Let's not talk about architecture in English, I'll just embarrass myself. :)
 
I think I struggle with all of it because these diagrams of these throats somewhat disgust me. It is a marvel though I admit.
 
2:31 AM
Oh thank you! I'm so glad somebody else said that.
 
You're welcome, I'm quite straightforward with the shortcomings of my intellect.
 
It's always bugged me in that very same way.
 
I think maybe I'm slowly learning about these topics but this idea stops me from admitting it, so it's a double handicap.
Anyways, now I can provide better advice to this fellow, some older dude who's quite good at making himself understood but he systematically never pronounces those simple past sounds there.
 
@tchrist Wrote an answer, then saw it was cross-posted on ELL, then voted to close
I refuse to reward such things
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore What do you mean he doesn't pronounce them? At all, or correctly?
 
2:35 AM
At all.
 
@alphabet Sigh.
@Plusjamaisquoiencore What's his first language?
 
French (QC).
 
Right.
 
@tchrist On ELL it was answered twice, first by the person who answers every question before anyone else can get to it, and second by he-who-must-not-be-named.
1
Q: What is the part of speech?

NikhilonlyIn the sentence 'the boy is ten years old,' I can't understand why years is a noun. I can see ten years old as modifying boy, so it's an adjective. Individually, ten modifies years and years modifies old. So is years a noun or an adverb since it modifies the adjective old? Also what is the part o...

 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore I wonder if he's mentally using French "rules" there. Think about how you say second in French. There is never a /d/ at all. It's skipped completely in isolation, but in liaison before a vowel appears as a /t/.
 
2:40 AM
I equate it to lack of phonetic "force", like I lack with "the", or "law" in "lawyer" which I sound like "liar". He may think he sounds it but he doesn't and this is further compounded by videoconferencing and duplex whatever.
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore One note: due to the "alveolar plosive elision" rules, the /d, t/ of the simple past is (in certain circumstances) not pronounced by native speakers either: listen to how people say "noticed someone" or "fined them."
 
I hear you, I wouldn't pronounce those either, although I would pronounce more "noticed" than "fined" here.
 
Yes, there's more of a tongue dance.
 
This happens to /t, d/ between certain consonants: compare phrases like "most people."
I never pronounce those /t/s and /d/s, unless I'm trying very hard to enunciate, though there's probably some variation between speakers on this point.
 
Indeed, like "mos def".
 
2:43 AM
Fine "fine them" and "find them" and "fined them" differ in that you move smoothly across word boundaries in the first instance without an occlusive "stopping" or "affricating" the fricative.
Most deaf? :)
Sordos. :)
 
Yes. Most definitely.
Yes, that "stopping". I understand.
 
For me, "fine them" and "fined/find them" are homophonous; this is surprisingly common.
 
Haha, most deaf.
 
So it's possible your learner is actually imitating native speech, if they're listening for a /t, d/ that doesn't exist in those positions.
 
With my speaker it's like he's always using the present tense, except for irregular verbs.
But as I said, videoconferencing doesn't help either.
 
2:49 AM
Hmm. What's their native language? It's possible that they don't have those consonant clusters and find them hard to make.
 
Same as me, Quebec French.
 
Does he find it hard to pronounce those consonants, or does he just forget to put them in?
 
Most likely both. He's stronger with lexicon than verbs. And him and another colleague rely heavily on English words that also exist in French, leading to Gallicisms.
I don't have specific examples but he said to a group "we have to align". He meant "we have to be on the same page". I find align without a complement is not very usual.
But then again, I'm no native speaker either.
 
[ɑʲˌdɪ̃ːˈθĩ̞qso]
 
2:55 AM
I didn't think so. :)
You don't say that trailing /t/ there before the theta.
Well, you should. But often people don't.
Let alone the /d/.
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore Yeah, that use of align is a bit odd; you'd expect something like "We have to align on priorities" in business-speak.
 
Il faut s'enligner sounds more typical in my type of Quebec French.
 
I can manage if I must, but only by dint of hard work.
And the n's just nasalize their vowels without showing their own faces.
 
It could also be confusion about the simple present rules. I've heard some EFL teachers actually teach the simple past first, since the simple present is so complicated.
 
?
 
2:58 AM
I was taught using 3 colums like - liked - liked.
 
@tchrist The issue is that the simple present can be used to describe things occurring in past, present, or future time, but not things happening simultaneously with the present moment, except under certain circumstances.
 
There are very few English verbs irregular in the present, no more than a handful or two. But in the past? Probably one to two hundred.
@alphabet You're not talking about morphology?
 
@tchrist No, I'm talking about knowing when to use it.
 
@tchrist Oh, nice.
I do not remember seeing it.
How would you translate hiw?
 
Here's a fun question: why can you say "The train departs at 6pm" but not "The train derails at 6pm"? You need "The train will derail at 6pm."
 
3:01 AM
@Cerberus Shape or form?
Not hue.
 
@alphabet Because things that happen on a fixed schedule are treated as facts, which are in the simple present?
@tchrist I don't know the word!
 
@Cerberus It's what gave us hue, but the original sense has been lost to us.
 
@Cerberus Basically yes.
 
OK makes sense.
X2.
 
But there are a whole bunch of rules about where you can use the simple present that don't apply to the simple past.
 
3:03 AM
Can't you say "the train will depart at 6pm" too?
 
@alphabet Yeah my pupils learn many of those.
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore I think it is possible, but probably less common?
 
"We were angry" and "The bomb exploded" are both correct. "We are angry" is correct. "The bomb explodes" is wrong.
 
They've kindly provided Latin translations for the confusing Old English. Well, Alfric has.
 
3:04 AM
As I recall, native speakers of some languages have trouble adjusting to the English aspect system.
 
@alphabet We are angry because you're being mean.
 
> Æfter his hiwe [Latin secundum speciem suam].
 
@tchrist Thankfully.
 
No kidding.
 
@alphabet Probably almost all languages, even Dutch...
 
3:06 AM
I just realized my speaker would just say "explode". So it's those d+s, d+id, k+t+ed sounds. Food for thought.
 
Oddly enough, one way in which you can't use the simple present is to describe events that are happening in the immediate present.
 
What's an event?
 
@Plusjamaisquoiencore He could also be having trouble pronouncing [ɪ] (the kit vowel); this of course tends to be tricky for French speakers.
 
Those flowers smell amazing!
 
@tchrist Yes, but you can't say "He cleans the house" while he's cleaning the house. You have to use the progressive there. (Except for the numerous exceptions to these rules.)
 
3:08 AM
@alphabet While Jim cleans the house, you need to take the dog for a walk.
 
@tchrist That's one of the exceptions: in subordinate clauses the rules are different.
 
Then she gets nothing.
 
I need to give it some thought. Trying to help someone like him improve on these is touchy. Anyways, thanks all, insightful as always. I must sleep, another day, another cookie.
Cheers!
 
Of course, "Every day he cleans the house" is fine.
@Cerberus Huh. I'd assume that Germanic languages would be the most similar to English in this respect.
 
I certainly prefer the OE spelling of hiw over the modern spelling of hue though.
@alphabet Huh? Goodness no!
 
3:12 AM
@alphabet Noo English is so weird.
Perhaps Celtic influence?
 
Neither in Dutch, German, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, nor Icelandic. Let alone Gothic.
 
@Cerberus Interesting.
 
@alphabet Do you speak no other languages?
 
I heard about a theory that the ubiquitous use of the progressive aspect was from Celtic.
 
Then there are the words whose meaning changes in the progressive: "Give them the money when he's dying" and "Give them the money when he dies" mean two very different things.
 
3:14 AM
I remember hearing that notion.
 
That may have messed up the rest as well.
 
@tchrist Just English and Raccoon. (I took Latin in school but never got too good at it.)
 
@alphabet Would you use when in the second example? I probably wouldn't notice it, but, when I think about it, I prefer after.
 
@Cerberus Either works. "When" can be used to mean "after."
 
As I said, it wouldn't strike me as a non-native mistake.
Nor do I like it very much.
Perhaps also because it comes after the main clause.
 
3:17 AM
@alphabet Go learn at least one other modern Germanic language, preferably two, and at least two modern Romance languages, and not two that are too similar to each other either. You need to place English in the right context so you need both branches. Then if you have nothing else to do you can learn something from other Indo-European branches, like Celtic or Slavic or even one of the eastern ones.
 
> When she died, they give her money away.
Even less unusual.
 
Maybe Greek.
 
@alphabet "The train derails at 6 pm" is just fine as is, assuming you know someone contrived to make that happen, or did so yourself.
 
@Robusto Correct.
 
I find the past tenses in French also hard to understand, in that the same tense is used differently from Dutch. But no more different from Dutch than are English tenses.
 
3:19 AM
@Cerberus Is the imperfect/perfect that throws you off?
I wouldn't think so.
But I should not assume.
 
Meanwhile "Water will boil faster at higher altitudes" and "Water boils faster at higher altitudes" are both correct and essentially synonymous.
 
Um, that's not a future marker, kid.
It's volitional.
It wants to boil faster there. :)
 
@tchrist I don't have the patience for it, to be honest.
@tchrist According to H&P, you can use the future there because the sentence is implicitly conditional: "If you're at a higher altitude, water will boil faster."
 
@alphabet Is not future.
 
@tchrist Imparfait, passé composé, passé simple.
 
3:23 AM
@tchrist Depends on what you mean by "future."
 
@Cerberus Well, the problem is that in speech the last one doesn't get used any longer so this makes it fuzzier.
 
That is what people are told.
 
@alphabet There's no hope for him. He simply will not hold still long enough to study.
 
It is the kind of thing some people would say about many things we use.
But my French friend told me the passé simple is in fact used in educated speech.
 
Again, no future there. He won't do that because he does not want to do it, he refuses to do it.
And there certainly is no conditional either.
 
3:25 AM
@tchrist The door won't open. You will do as I say.
 
@Cerberus Yes, I've heard it in scholarly lectures.
@alphabet Deontic, not epistemic.
Both of those, in the customary senses, are in the deontic mode of permissions, not in the epistemic mode of possible futures.
 
@tchrist I would say future will and epistemic will are cousins.
 
@Cerberus Those two are the same thing.
 
This is why H&P argue that will is actually a modal auxiliary that happens to also be used to express futurity.
"She'll be in the office by now."
 
@tchrist OK whatever you call them.
 
3:27 AM
The deontic will isn't about a possibility, and therefore is not about "the future".
 
I meant the one denoting frequency.
 
@Cerberus Oh yes, there's that one, too. I had forgotten it. It's the one whose past tense is would.
 
> He will text his wife at odd hours.
> He will text his wife tomorrow.
I think these two are related.
 
The first is frequentive.
 
Can usually be distinguished, but I think the former was born of the latter.
 
3:29 AM
Of course, strictly speaking "He will text his wife at odd hours" is ambiguous.
 
Something one does in the future ~~~ something one is bound to do again.
@alphabet My strictly is not so good.
 
When they lived on the coast but he worked in the city late at nice, he would often text his wife at odd hours.
 
Yes.
I see no different between present and past will.
 
Here's another fun question. "He cleaned the house for an hour" and "he cleaned the house in an hour" are both fine. "He's cleaning the house for an hour" is fine. "He's cleaning the house in an hour" is, at best, quite awkward.
 
Well, past will is would. :)
 
3:31 AM
> He will text her again.
He will text her again and again.
@tchrist Exactly.
Isn't it funny how an extra again suggests a different kind of will?
At least it does to me.
And I think it's easily explained.
 
Depends on context. "If she breaks up with him, he will text her again and again."
 
People are so intoxicated by conditional frames that they stop being able to see how common modal uses outside those really are.
 
@alphabet Yes, but that is again not the most obvious context. The first and the second have different interpretations prima facie, wouldn't you say?
 
@Cerberus I would actually see "He will text her again and again" as ambiguous without further context.
 
But the first sentence is not ambiguous, is it?
 
3:36 AM
My problem is girls—they won't go out with me.
 
@Cerberus "He will text her again" isn't ambiguous (generally).
 
The extra again clearly changes things.
 
Some of the must-have things, I will admit, only make sense to the people who must have them.
 
@tchrist That could be voluntary will.
 
Will you please stop parroting on about breakfast?
Black bears will generally be more vulnerable to valley-bottom disturbance than brown bears.
Julius will have it that she has made a bargain with Sir Anthony.
I can, and I will, pass all of my AP tests.
He will have left by now.
Nothing future there.
The prefect means I'm quite certain about a past event.
No futures.
Obsessing over will as a future marker by willfully seeing its every use through future-colored classes will simply not do.
Most of you will have seen a pollen-collector making for home with her legs coated with pollen, looking as if she wore plus-fours.
Shite! I'm late and that'll be her on the mobie now so I'm just letting it run on to answer.
If a taverna has only one barrel of wine it will be white, and it may be retsina.
To distinguish Bentham's interpretation of the term, I will call it experienced utility.
Use an ovenproof frying pan which will hold all the potatoes in a single layer.
These lack temporal function.
There came now this questioning time. There could be about four people, at times six people. At times I would stand, at times I would sit, and these people would take turns
 
3:45 AM
"If he would have bought it earlier, he would have been rich by now."
 
If only he had been willing to buy it earlier, ...
Is more elegant.
Parents would usually live with their children until they either got married and left.., or there was no more room left due to the number of grandchildren.
> In August 2017, Trump announced that he would reverse a policy that enabled transgender individuals to serve openly in the military.
The Elizabethan's chief concern was that the present would soon merge in the past and be gone.
 
Another fun simple present usage: "Let me know who wins."
 
People in this region would have seen an entire black disc in front of the sun, blocking out 95 per cent of the sun's light—an unforgettable sight.
 
"I bet it rains tomorrow."
(These are from H&P.)
 
My challenge was to design an algorithm that would distinguish window shoppers from buyers.
Why would you delay so long?
 
3:49 AM
"The match now starts next Monday, not next Tuesday."
 
Mar 27, 2013 at 13:08, by Mitch
Also I came here to say something important and you're all distracting me with this nonsense.
 
You may all leave us now. I would speak with the Squire.
 
"I was playing chess and this guy comes along and challenges me to a game."
 
The newspapers and the television reports would have her believe that non-nationals in the country are alike.
 
"Here comes the bus!"
 
3:50 AM
I would suggest that Hollywood is not the only culprit in softening public opinion towards torture.
I would have thought governments might have learned from the poll tax not to use Scotland as a test bed for anything.
 
And sometimes you can use the present tense to describe events happening in the instantaneous present: "I promise I'll help you tomorrow."
 
You wouldn't happen to have a joint on you, would you?
 
This is awesome
 
I would have loved to win this thing one more time, but it just wasn't in the cards.
 
151
257
I'm throwing down primes to see if you're impressed by them
 
3:52 AM
That would be—let me see—five times three hundred and sixty-five is—um.
 
Just like you're throwing down sentences in the future that are not about the future
1003
 
Would you let me know if you pencil anything in for any Sunday in March 2026 so that I can let him know?
 
"Will you help me move these boxes?" vs "Would you help me move these boxes?"
 
(I can really only do 3 digits and even then I'm just hoping)
 
That one is only about the future for a few years yet. Then it will have been about the past.
How would I have blest you if you would have suffered me!
 
3:55 AM
2047
Was that a good one?
 
If it would only have rained, how welcome it would have been.
Would you mind my asking you what part of the country you come from?
I wish summer would hurry up. My bones are cold.
It was intended that the station would provide a park and ride facility for the whole of the Vale.
 
Dang it
 
It is objected that the Will contains an extravagant genealogy; the very thing a medieval Will would contain.
 
2047 = 23*87
That's hard
 
Media critics have long argued that networks should not call races until all polls have closed to avoid affecting turnout. It's a moot argument: information will out.
You may bring me a small glass too, if you will.
 
3:59 AM
"I wouldn't buy you lunch, but him I will."
 
Think what you will of her—I know she's not well-liked among the girls.
You'll have to go on being a millionairess, whether you will or no.
 
Argh - I should have seen it
 
Two wills, no contest. No commonality.
Create a disturbance as a ruse, then effect an entrance will they or nill they.
 
2047 + 23= 2070 and that + 230 = 2300
 
He that may and will not, when he would he shall not.
 
4:02 AM
Where there's a will there's a way
 
"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will."
An archaic adage invented in 1964.
 
Oft evil will shall evil mar.
 
I should learn witchcraft.
 
Like the poor cat i'the adage, letting I dare not come before I would
 
4:08 AM
wildebeests
vill de beests best ye?
Chuckwalla.
Wallawalla.
Pattawalla.
Potawatomi.
Watopotami.
Mishawaka.
 
4:48 AM
@alphabet Pronouncing the kit vowel is easy for French speakers if they are taught the secret about how to do it. Reciprocally, English speakers can also easily pronounce the French word café if they are given that secret too. Unfortunately, the secret is so unbelievable that it is commonly rejected and French speakers keep on saying keet for kit and English speakers cafay for café.
 
5:09 AM
Medical student from India decided to stay in Archangelsk as a doctor 29.ru/text/world/2023/11/30/72967640
Arkhangelsk is higher north than my native town in Siberia, but the climate is much milder due to the influence of the ocean
Arkhangelsk (UK: , US: ; Russian: Арха́нгельск, IPA: [ɐrˈxanɡʲɪlʲsk]), also known as Archangel and Archangelsk, is a city and the administrative center of Arkhangelsk Oblast, Russia. It lies on both banks of the Northern Dvina near its mouth into the White Sea. The city spreads for over 40 kilometres (25 mi) along the banks of the river and numerous islands of its delta. Arkhangelsk was the chief seaport of medieval and early modern Russia until 1703, when it was replaced by the newly-founded Saint Petersburg. A 1,133-kilometer-long (704 mi) railway runs from Arkhangelsk to Moscow via Vologda and...
> So will I pray that thou mayst have thy “Will,”
If thou turn back and my loud crying still.
 
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
8:19 AM
 
8:39 AM
 
9:02 AM
Russian meme comparing 2013 with 2023
At the very end of 2013, Zelensky took part in the annual televized New Year Concert in Moscow. He was a comic actor back then.
And the man in square 1 is Prigozhin, who is a musical producer but happens to have the same surname with the other Prigozhin.
In the spring of 2023, the musical producer had to close his Telegram posts to comments, because people were flooding them with proposals to deliver more artillery shells to him.
And in square 3 is the now-dead Prigozhin in his famous video where he used swear words towards the Minister of Defense, asking where the f*ing artillery shells were.
> When you have artillery rounds / When you've run out of artillery rounds
 
9:45 AM
> Nature. - Scientists have developed tiny robots made of human cells that are able to repair damaged neural tissue1. The ‘anthrobots’ were made using human tracheal cells and might, in future, be used in personalized medicine.
> Lanah Burkhardt claims that the “single kiss” she encountered in a book when she was 11 years old made her a depressed, suicidal porn addict at 13.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:56 AM
> The Pope! How many divisions has he got?
 
 
3 hours later…
1:48 PM
Infinitely many divisions.
 
 
1 hour later…
@CowperKettle I don't think I understand the joke. And it's not the French that defeats me here.
 
Jun 8, 2021 at 13:51, by Robusto
Take some LSD and we'll talk.
> Griffiths’s study found that, two months after taking psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, two-thirds out of 30 volunteers rated their subsequent trip as one of the five most meaningful experiences of their lives.
Further studies that ask the same question have pushed that number to as high as 87 percent of participants, confirming the curious fact that a group of molecules can reliably deliver on demand what the psychiatrist Viktor Frankl called the central human motivation: the search for meaning.
Jun 8, 2021 at 13:56, by Robusto
LSD is a door you go through, and once on the other side you don't need to go through that door again.
> ... studying psychedelics to learn more about the biological underpinnings of meaningful experiences could hold any number of fascinating lessons. Instead of providing conclusive answers, psychedelic meaning may reveal profound questions that change the course of action we take in the world.
 
3:29 PM
@tchrist A couple moves into a village and builds a house that breaks the whole charm, by being a cube.
 
@CowperKettle That's interesting. The cadences of speech prime the fetus for the language to come.
 
3:52 PM
@tchrist Don't worry, you aren't alone :-)
That one is better.
 
4:14 PM
 
4:27 PM
@jlliagre Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
 
@Robusto P'tit à p'tit, l'oiseau fait son nid
 
@Mitch Pfft. Birds don't eat pita. Greeks do that.
 
5:33 PM
Dangote Refinery, the most powerful in the world.
 
6:13 PM
@CowperKettle then there's not much hope left for the participants of this chat
@CowperKettle reminds me of a hairbrush
 
6:43 PM
That pretty much describes most of the chat denizens everywhere.
 
 
4 hours later…
10:46 PM
To be honest, if it were up to me we'd just abolish school libraries, at least for anything other than picture books for the very young. Even when I was in school, almost nobody used them. Now everything's online anyway.
 
11:15 PM
@alphabet Eh, some school libraries are used. Most even. Tho there was one school I was at (doing IT stuff, not as a student) where the library wasn't used. All the books were decades old and there was a dead mouse that we found somewhere, in addition to something else disgusting that we found on one of the shelves (I've repressed my memory of what it was)
While this was before the kids came back to school, it was stuff like that that showed just the sheer neglect that the place suffered. We ended up using it as storage space for a bunch of chromebooks
 
11:48 PM
@Laurel Whatever could be wrong with a school library having books that are "decades old"? They get infested with bookworms? Never trust a book older than you are? Breaks the first commandment of consumerism that you have to keep the publishers in business? Shakespeare updated his plays?
 

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