English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:15

Calling Trump the F-Word

forest

lol I thought that was about the homophobic slur

Is "fascist" itself a slur that has to be bowdlerized now?

(Regardless, Trump is not a fascist. He's just an idiot.)

I'm pretty sure Trump"ism" does not promote strict government regulation and control of private business. :P

Cerberus

Censorship is usually a pretty bad idea, including self-censorship.

I have no idea what those silly American censored words mean, and I lose interest when I see them.

Robusto

It's not self-censorship, it's a joke on that.

Adam Gopnik is one writer you are safe in assuming is at least as smart as you are.

forest

The fact that it's difficult to tell if it's serious or a joke just shows how bad the situation is.

Robusto

Well, it always helps if one reads what a writer has to say first.

Cerberus

00:27

@forest Agreed.

@Robusto True, but sometimes even titles can be too off putting.

Our Minister of Justice has spoken out against fringe movements, saying that conspiracy theories and political correctness are threats to democracy.

forest

Here in the US, being against political correctness is often considered a "threat" to democracy. :/

Mitch

@forest I don't think those are mutually exclusive

I feel like calling him fascist (and all the people around him) is intellectualizing it.

forest

@Mitch They aren't, but he doesn't promote views which are solidly fascist. Calling anyone on the authoritarian right a fascist is dangerous. Last I checked, he wants less government regulation of corporations, not more.

Cerberus

@forest And that 'consideration' is exactly why p.c. is a threat.

I think it is good to speak out against extremes, and even better to group several very different extremes together.

forest

He's not fascist any more than Biden is communist.

Mitch

00:32

and intellectualizing it sort of, like humor, weakens the reaction.

forest

@Mitch It doesn't even intellectualize it. It desensitizes people. When everyone you disagree with is a Nazi or fascist, it dilutes the meaning.

Robusto

@forest That is as superficial an assessment as one can get.

forest

Of course. It was a single sentence.

Cerberus

People often use terms without defining them at all, even controversial terms.

Robusto

@forest Single sentences can be deep. Not that one, though.

Cerberus

00:34

It's like self-trolling, throwing yourself into a discussion without any desire to actually have a clear discussion.

Robusto

But if this is where the discussion is headed, I withdraw the article from consideration. Obviously nobody is going to read it.

forest

@Robusto I was not intending for it to be deep.

Robusto

@forest Then you nailed it.

forest

(Please mind the Code of Conduct)

Cerberus

People know fascism is a controversial term. Applying it to a person or movement right now, without a clear definition, would seem to be knowingly fruitless.

forest

00:35

Agreed. It's used as an insult, nothing more.

Mitch

@Robusto How long is it? Is it New Yorker humor page or one of those long things that makes you think?

Cerberus

@Robusto Sorry, I didn't mean to trash the article, just the title.

Mitch

Maybe it is 'fucker'?

forest

@Mitch Nope, it says "fascist".

Mitch

No I think it's fucker

Robusto

00:36

sigh

forest

That's when I stopped reading.

Mitch

oh cripes I thought I got you to read it.

Cerberus

Read, an article?

Instead of talking about it?

forest

Nope. I don't read that kind of drivel.

Robusto

Aug 4 at 21:13, by Robusto

This is like getting nibbled to death by ducks.

Cerberus

00:37

I prefer to have opinions on articles over reading them.

It's more efficient.

forest

It's the viewpoint I have an opinion on, not the specific article.

Robusto

@forest Now you're assuming, a priori, that it is bad enough to label as drivel.

Cerberus

As Mitch would say, I prefer to have someone summarise the film for me over reading the book.

forest

And wow chat is being incredibly buggy for me.

@Robusto I've waded through enough of that kind of crap that I can usually characterize it as such correctly.

Not always, but often enough that it's reliable.

Cerberus

Perhaps only some aspect of it is drivel to you, one especially used to attract attention near the beginning. Perhaps the rest is better.

forest

00:40

Oi. Mind your manners.

Cerberus

I'm just hypothesising, of course.

forest

Even a heuristic as simple as if (contains_word("fascist") && !subject("italy")) ignore(); is sufficiently accurate these days.

Cerberus

Now I almost feel like reading it.

Robusto

@forest You're the one who is calling a serious article I linked drivel and crap. Without having read it. You're the one with bad manners.

forest

@Robusto I'm not calling what you said drivel or crap. I'm referring to a 3rd-party inanimate entity.

Cerberus

00:42

It might be considered insensitive to call something someone else cares about drivel, especially in the context of (even jocularly) negative reactions from a chat-room mob.

forest

Calling people unintelligent as an insult is never acceptable. Don't do that.

@Cerberus True. I'll elaborate then: I make the assumption that it's drivel based on just that: assumptions.

Mitch

@Cerberus well played

I'd prefer to overhear from another room someone's views on a review of a movie rather than read it.

while doom scrolling twitter and listening to thrash metal

@forest but as a well-reasoned and insightful factual claim, it's fair game

forest

@Mitch It's a condescending attitude combined with veiled insults that is unacceptable, not the accusation of low intelligence.

Mitch

@Robusto Also, you've broken the rules of ELU chat it is a mixed metaphor that's is not bilingual.

user 726941

WTF!?

forest

00:48

@user726941 ?

Mitch

Unveil your insults, unmix your metafora

Cerberus

@forest I'm sorry, but I think neither your nor I has a right to demand politeness in this conversation.

user 726941

You suspended my pal?

Cerberus

@Mitch Even better! Though you forgot to mention the film was based on the book the actual discussion was about.

forest

@Cerberus The CoC overrides conversational norms.

Mitch

00:49

I'm still unsure about self-censorship. Sometimes there are things you really just don't want to say.

forest

@user726941 I marked one of the messages as rude/offensive, so it comes with an automatic and brief suspension.

Cerberus

I don't think we need to invoke cocs here.

Mitch

@Cerberus Book?

user 726941

Why?

Mitch

cripes

Cerberus

00:50

@forest That was a really bad move.

In my opinion, you were more impolite than Robusto, and his impoliteness was more understandable.

forest

@Cerberus I disagree. It was the second time, after being told to knock it off, that the user maintained an offensive and insulting attitude.

user 726941

> Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by English (or other languages) in the raw. That doesn't mean we want to talk about waste elimination or hemorrhoids or other such topics.

forest

@Cerberus What did I say that was impolite? Feel free to delete any comments I've made which made offensive insinuations about others.

Cerberus

@forest I think you should perhaps tone it down, not involve yourself in something as ugly as this.

And to think we were just talking about censorship.

user 726941

^

^^

Mitch

00:52

@forest Wow dude, come stay a while be cool before you, you know, pick fights

user 726941

^

^^

forest

Fair enough.

Cerberus

You should be able to either accept mild impersonal impoliteness against your own impoliteness, or just walk away: not censor the other person.

forest

@Cerberus If you want to discuss moderator actions, let's do it in the TL.

user 726941

Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by English (or other languages)

Mitch

00:53

@forest Did you really flag someone for ... whatever?

Did it hurt you that bad?

Cerberus

@forest I have undone your suspension. Complain to SE if you think this is important enough. But I think it would be wiser if you took a deep breath and a pause.

forest

@Mitch I would have flagged it no matter who it was directed at.

@Cerberus That's fine. In retrospect, I probably should have used the temporary kick instead, since that doesn't come with a half-hour suspension. I just forgot it was a thing.

Cerberus

@Robusto Suspension undone, I had no idea this would happen.

user 726941

Let's try to cool down

Please

🙏

Cerberus

Good idea.

Mitch

00:56

We could sing a song?

Cerberus

@forest Instead, you should not have used moderator tools against someone you disagreed with in a discussion.

That is only done in case of an emergency.

forest

@Cerberus Enforcing the CoC against a person using insults is always acceptable, especially after them having been told to stop, regardless of who it is directed at.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yeah that's pretty uncool.

user 726941

I shot the sheriff, but I didn't shoot the deputy...

Mitch

Recusal is usually what you should do

Cerberus

00:58

@forest I don't know what you're talking about, but I will no longer participate in this discussion.

Mitch

@user726941 😂

forest

@Cerberus You don't have to. I don't think it'd be wise to continue it, anyway, as it's becoming heated.

user 726941

More heat than light.

Mitch

OK here's a thing "incoherent program of national revenge"... I find that pretty accurate. If that is wha t fascism is, then sure, call it that.

Cerberus

If you can't take heat, then keep your flamethrower in your pocketses, as a certain halfling would say.

Mitch

00:59

Harfoot?

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm that would seem rather generic to me.

@Mitch I forgot what he was?

Mitch

@Cerberus Yeah he was a hobbit

but

I think

in the new series

'The Rings of Power'

they call them harfoot.

harfeet?

Cerberus

@Mitch Or perhaps a slightly different race of halfling, not officially called hobbit according to the international body of pageant regulators?

@Mitch But that's just because they are the forefathers of hobbits, right?

So not hobbits yet.

Mitch

don't know

the Tolkien mythology is hard to date properly with respect to our own ideas of time.

Cerberus

It's probably somewhere in the appendices.

From what I read, the new series uses harfeet because hobbitses had not yet been invented in the second era, but this praecursor race did exist.

Mitch

01:08

@Cerberus there're more desiderata in the article. that was the first one but it nailed it for me.

Cerberus

Oh, was that desideratum, even.

Mitch

@Cerberus I was hoping the series would make the Silmarillion less boring.

My expectations were not met for too reasons

user 726941

Btw, are you a native English speaker @forest?

Mitch

1) it's not that more interesting

forest

@user726941 Yes.

Mitch

01:09

2) it's not about the Silmarillion

user 726941

Just checking, thnx

forest

Why?

Mitch

The silma... lots of r's and l's I can't spell... is all about the 1st age, and the series is about the 2nd age.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm have you seen the series? I have not.

Mitch

I think

user 726941

01:10

Somethings get mistranslated

Cerberus

Was Alkallabeth in the Silmarillion?

Or was it in the appendices dangling beneath the Lord of the Rings? I forget.

Mitch

@Cerberus just the first two episodes.

user 726941

Not to mention intonation etc

Mitch

@Cerberus The series is about the appendices. The S-word is ... yes! Akallabeth is the 4th part of the S word!

tchrist

> Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides.

The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides. The Stoors were broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were larger, and they preferred flat lands and riversides. The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair, and they were taller and slimmer than the others; they were lovers of trees and of woodl…

Cerberus

01:12

@Mitch What was your opinion?

tchrist

> The Harfoots had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the mountains. They moved westward early, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop while the others were still in the Wilderland. They were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous. They were the most inclined to settle in one place, and longest preserved their ancestral habit of living in tunnels and holes.

forest

@user726941 Yes, possibly.

tchrist

Harfoots are Hobbits.

Literally.

Cerberus

@tchrist Crossing the mountains into Eriador?

Mitch

@Cerberus incoherent

tchrist

01:13

@Cerberus That's what it says. They obviously had to do it eventually.

user 726941

You missed the fireworks @tchrist

Mitch

a collection of stories that are interleaved that have absolutely nothing to do with each other than the costuming, and outdoor scenes in New Zealand

tchrist

Not firing on all cylinders.

user 726941

What's wrong?

Cerberus

@tchrist Far without by, interesting.

@Mitch Hmm a pity.

Mitch

01:15

@tchrist nice. thanks.

Cerberus

@Mitch Perhaps because they are introductory to the rest of the series?

Mitch

@Cerberus What do Catholics call it? I feel like it is necessary to watch it, even if it's not the best.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes. "AKALLABÊTH : The Downfall of Númenor" is a chapter there. It is also spelled other ways in various places.

Cerberus

@Mitch Call what?

tchrist

@user726941 Had 3 hours sleep last night, and a covid booster 8 hours ago.

Cerberus

01:16

@tchrist OK and it is not in the appendices?

Mitch

I really didn't care for LotR because it hurt my eyes with the hours long war scenes.

user 726941

@tchrist the third shot?

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh, dear, 3 hours is not much. For some specific reason you'd care to talk about?

@Mitch You should have slapped your visor down in time.

Mitch

@tchrist Oh yeah I was using the Sindarin variety spoken in the lower end of .. um .. that forest

Cerberus

By that one tribe of harfeetses.

Who still preserved the old pronunciation from behind that old tree across the mountains.

Mitch

01:18

@Cerberus Oh. What do they call doing something because you feel like you have to rather than because it really interests you

tchrist

@Cerberus It was very warm, and I didn't turn on the AC. I also didn't let the cats out, so they were bouncing on me. And after a short hike (3.5 miles at 86F) I guzzled down way, way too much ice tea, and I think that kept me awake in various fashions.

Cerberus

@Mitch Social obligation?

Mitch

@Cerberus something a little more obscure.

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh, sounds like a bad combination.

Mitch

penance?

Cerberus

01:19

Can you go to bed early tonight?

Mitch

a venal sin?

Cerberus

@Mitch Internalised snobbery?

Subconscious filmic conditioning?

Tookery?

Mitch

@Cerberus I've heard that's actually a thing

among some religious types

Cerberus

Tooks would do that.

Mitch

pride in being so humble

Cerberus

01:21

Sounds like fun.

I'm humble enough to admit my pride.

Look how modest I am.

tchrist

@Cerberus I probably cannot help but do so.

Cerberus

@tchrist That is good, no?

tchrist

Yes.

Night falls.

Cerberus

I hope not the darkness from Mordor.

tchrist

@Cerberus There are perhaps 4 pages at the start of the Appendices covering Númenor.

Cerberus

01:23

Ah, OK.

Alkallabeth (imagine correct spelling here) was my favourite story from the Silmarillion.

From the Lord of the Rings, I liked the story of Denethor best, including the background part of his story from the appendices.

So I do like the period in which this new series is set.

tchrist

@Cerberus Mostly the Akallabeth is covered in a couple of the volumes of CJRT's History of Middle Earth, namely Peoples of Middle Earth whose chapter 5 is "The History of the Akallabeth". It's also in Sauron Defeated and in The Lost Road and Other Writings. These are all tracing the textual history of the chapter from the published Silmarillion.

Remember that the published Sil contains 5 "Books".

> AINULINDALË : The Music of the Ainur

VALAQUENTA : Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar

QUENTA SILMARILLION : The History of the Silmarils

AKALLABÊTH : The Downfall of Númenor

OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE in which these tales come to their end

"The Downfallen"

> Akallabêth 'The Downfallen', Adûnaic (Númenórean) word equivalent in meaning to Quenya Atalantë. 347 Also the title of the account of the Downfall of Númenor. 359,360

An index entry.

From the Silmarillion.

Cerberus

@tchrist Those all predate the Silmarillion?

I'm a bit confused.

tchrist

@Cerberus Those are his son's writings, in which he traces the textual history.

Well, not exactly his son's.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

tchrist

He son published his father's drafts, with notes.

Cerberus

01:36

I thought the son had also published the Silmarillion itself?

tchrist

He did.

His dodecasomething was published after that.

In twelve volumes.

Cerberus

So which of those works you mentioned was published last?

Still confused.

tchrist

The Silmarillion was published four years after its author's death.

Cerberus

From the way you said it, I should think all of those other works contained praecursors to Alkallabeth as published in the Silmarillion?

tchrist

Yes, they contain earlier versions of it. He worked on it a long time. He worked on all of this a very, very, very long time.

Cerberus

01:39

Or is the chronology of publication different from that of writing?

OK.

I know he was like that!

tchrist

The History of Middle-earth

The History of Middle-earth is a 12-volume series of books published between 1983 and 1996 that collect and analyse much of Tolkien's legendarium, compiled and edited by his son, Christopher Tolkien. The series shows the development over time of Tolkien's conception of Middle-earth as a fictional place with its own peoples, languages, and history, from his earliest notions of a "mythology for England" through to the development of the stories that make up The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings. It is not a "history of Middle-earth" in the sense of being a chronicle of events in Middle-earth...

Cerberus

The story about the fall of Gondolin in the Silmarillion was based on one of his oldest stories, wasn't it?

Oh, by the way, the story of Gondolin is also one of my favourites.

Gondolin, Denethor, Numenor: so much fun.

tchrist

Yes, there were three "core" stories of the Elder Days.

Beren and Luthien, Idril and Tuor, and the Children of Hurin.

Tuor and Turin were cousins.

Gondolin is the middle tale in my list.

Doriath is the first, and third, actually.

Nargothrond is in the first and third.

Cerberus

Doriath was an OK story: I liked the concept, but it was not done in a way as interesting as the others I mentioned.

tchrist

The Akallabeth was from the Second Age, not the First Age.

Cerberus

01:44

As to the love stories, those rather bored me, sorry Beren and Luthien.

I think I only read that one once, when I was maybe 13.

I skipped it the other times, I think.

Or just scanned through it.

tchrist

You didn't enjoy the love story of Túrin who unwittingly married his own sister, Nienor? They where the Children of Húrin, remember. It was also called The Tale of Grief. Not all love stories live happily ever after.

Cerberus

I'm sorry, not really.

I don't even remember the story.

I can't remember any love stories from Tolkien that I liked.

But perhaps I am overlooking some, it's been so long.

I liked Dido and Aeneas.

Though Aeneas is a little bit too much of a rascal.

But it's still good.

Penelope and Odysseus is all right, but not stunning.

Pyramus et Thisbe, same.

tchrist

@Cerberus I think reading Túrin as a love story is going to be a problem. It's a tragedy.

Cerberus

I...don't even remember much of it.

Mitch

I vaguely remember when reading LotR that after all the battles and Sauron defeated and everybody walking home I thought gosh there's been no romance and then Tolkien just plopped in Aragorn and Arwen

Cerberus

01:51

Not even the main motif nor events.

tchrist

The Children of Húrin

The Children of Húrin is an epic fantasy novel which forms the completion of a tale by J. R. R. Tolkien. He wrote the original version of the story in the late 1910s, revised it several times later, but did not complete it before his death in 1973. His son, Christopher Tolkien, edited the manuscripts to form a consistent narrative, and published it in 2007 as an independent work. The book contains 33 illustrations by Alan Lee, eight of which are full-page and in colour. The story is one of three "great tales" set in the First Age of Tolkien's Middle-earth, the other two being Beren and Lúthien...

Mitch

or was it Aragorn and Eowyn?

Cerberus

@Mitch Aragorn and Arwen were fine at that time and place in the story, but not super interesting to me.

Mitch

it seemed very...

Cerberus

@Mitch Alas, no. That would have been more fun.

Mitch

01:52

by the numbers?

Cerberus

Yeah.

Which is not necessarily bad.

Mitch

no but usually not interesting

it's a very .. male story

macho?

Cerberus

Macho stories can still be fun.

Mitch

I guess macho can also still be about getting the girl

tchrist

> As Glaurung is dying on the bank of the ravine, Turambar pulls his sword from the dragon's belly, and blood spurts onto his hand and burns him. Overwhelmed with pain and fatigue, he faints. Niënor finds him and mistakes his swoon for death. In a last effort of malice Glaurung opens his eyes and informs her that she and Turambar are brother and sister. Glaurung then dies, and his spell of forgetfulness passes from Niënor. Remembering her entire life and knowing that her unborn child was begotten in incest, she throws herself from the nearby cliff into the river Taeglin and is washed away.

Mitch

01:53

but now that I think about it

Cerberus

Though, yeah, the story between Aragorn and Eowyn was more interesting, if I remember correct, short though it was.

@tchrist Yeah, I remember not liking that story.

It was also too fairytale-like.

Mitch

@tchrist Wow. Family dinners must be awkward

I kinda feel like Brandir, while not deserving that end, probably should have self-censored

tchrist

@Cerberus "It has elements of revenge tragedies such as revenge (avenging Glaurung), madness (Túrin's madness after finding out who Níniel was), multiple deaths (Saeros, Beleg, Gwindor, Finduilas, Brodda, Niënor, Brandir) and disguise (Túrin's adopting new identities)."

Cerberus

> Aragorn sadly answers "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek". Heartbroken, Eowyn silently watches him go.

tchrist

Too much Finnish tragedies or something.

Cerberus

01:59

(From a summary.)

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…