English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

00:59

> Each of the volunteers was also asked to count the number of times they passed gas. The volunteers were also asked to submit to randomized testing that involved measuring the amount of gas that was emitted during episodes of flatulence, using balloons.

Must have been a fun study to take part in.

Robusto

01:11

@tchrist There are only cats in your house, including you.

In other news, our cases in NM are trending downward. This week is 50-60% of the previous recent weeks.

The worst outbreaks ... wait for it ... have been in the Red parts of the state. Who knew?

Cerberus

I'm glad to hear the situation is improving.

There has been no change here whatsoever for two months.

Robusto

@Cerberus Is that good or bad?

Cerberus

Mediocre?

It's just oddly stable.

Hospitalisations.

Robusto

Well, at least it's operating at a much lower level now.

Cerberus

Positive tests.

Yes.

But I find those lines oddly straight.

Robusto

01:19

Yeah. But the health-care system can cope with straight lines if they are low enough.

Cerberus

Yes.

But what happens when autumn comes?

And winter?

Why can't we get back to the levels from early July?

Robusto

From experience, I would have to say that is worrisome.

What are the vax rates like?

Cerberus

Around 73% of all people have been vaccinated now at least once.

Robusto

You'd think it would be more. We're at ~76% for the same standard.

Cerberus

But it seems to be topping off, despite a supposed vaccination acceptance of around 85%.

@Robusto Are you sure that is not 76% of adults?

Robusto

01:23

I think so.

Cerberus

This is not.

Robusto

76% of those currently eligible.

Cerberus

Sep 3 at 21:12, by Cerberus

Of all Corona patients in hospitals, 90% are unvaccinated. This while 85% of adults have been vaccinated by now.

Robusto

Yeah. But then there are still people who refuse to wear seatbelts in cars. Go figure.

Cerberus

It's worst in the Bible Belt.

Luckily, that belt is thin.

But large cities are not doing well either, mainly because of immigrants.

Robusto

01:25

@Cerberus Saving lives goes against their religion, I guess.

Cerberus

And then there are young people, who also have comparatively lower rates.

@Robusto Yes, it always has. Although the acceptance of the Corona vaccine is said to be higher than expected, based on acceptance of other vaccines in the Bible Belt.

Robusto

What is worse is that these dedicated anti-vaxxers are now looking to ivermectin—a dewormer for animals—as a cure/prophylaxis for Covid-19.

tchrist

@Cerberus For some.

Cerberus

@Robusto I read about that, most unfortunate.

Robusto

They won't take a tested, proven vaccine, but they will take a poison not intended for humans in general and Covid-19 in particular.

Cerberus

01:29

@tchrist For Rob's state, I meant.

@Robusto Humans are an odd species.

Robusto

@Cerberus Humans are a terrifying species, in almost every respect.

Cerberus

More terrifying than algae?

Robusto

What other species could end life on earth in a fit of pique?

tchrist

Algae, but they don't pique.

Robusto

Don't be a nit-piquer.

tchrist

01:31

Nationally we may be trending over a hump.

Sketchy data because of the short week.

CowperKettle

Vitamin D and lumisterol emerge as cheap and easily accessible potential treatments for COVID-19 - It's curious how vitamin D keeps bubbing up in research. What if someday, some derivative does result in being effective? It would be curious.

At least the positive thing is that some research money is poured into it, and the metabolism will be disentangled in more detail.

tchrist

Seems like everybody I know is deficient in Vitamin D.

Cerberus

Hmm that might explain why there is less flu in summer...

CowperKettle

That's because scientists still argue what vitamin D level is normal

Robusto

If you get enough sun you don't need Vitamin D supplements.

CowperKettle

01:34

Some say that above 30 is normal; some say that above 20

tchrist

@Robusto That's right: but have to live under 40 degrees all your life.

CowperKettle

Vitamin D is also needed to transport folate throught the choroid plexus into the brain. Well, not exactly needed, but it helps.

In the brain, the level of folate is higher than in the blood.

tchrist

People who live above 40 degrees just cannot get enough vitamin D.

The sun just isn't good enough above 40 degrees.

Well, "above".

Robusto

@tchrist I'm at 35° N.

tchrist

At latitudes that are numerically lower than 40 degrees in their respective hemisphere.

@Robusto I know. I'm at 40. That assumes sea-level though.

Which we are very notably not at.

Robusto

01:37

A doctor from Thailand told me nobody in my country gets enough sun for proper vitamin D supply. Mainly because people stay indoors all the time.

CowperKettle

I once spent 3 weeks at 39.5° latitude. That was the only part of my life when I was below 40 degrees.

tchrist

@Robusto Yes, that's true.

@CowperKettle What's your latitude? I can't imagine you get much sun there.

CowperKettle

@tchrist 56 degrees

tchrist

Well, I'm saying above and below confusingly. I'm sorry.

I meant "north" of 40 degrees is not enough sun.

CowperKettle

> 56° 50′ 8″ N, 60° 36′ 46″ E

tchrist

01:39

Which are higher numbers.

CowperKettle

And I once spent 2 weeks of my life at 41.5 degrees. Basically, my total time close to 40 degrees is 5 weeks through the whole of my life.

tchrist

> Except during the summer months, the skin makes little if any vitamin D from the sun at latitudes above 37 degrees north (in the United States, the shaded region in the map) or below 37 degrees south of the equator. People who live in these areas are at relatively greater risk for vitamin D deficiency.

CowperKettle

Tashkent

Tashkent (, US also ), or Toshkent (; Uzbek: Toshkent/Тошкент/تاشکند‎, IPA: [tɒʃˈkent]), and also historically known as Chach (Persian: چاچ‎), is the capital and largest city of Uzbekistan, as well as the most populous city in Central Asia, with a population in 2018 of 2,485,900. It is in northeastern Uzbekistan, near the border with Kazakhstan. Before Islamic influence started in the mid 8th century AD, Tashkent was influenced by the Sogdian and Turkic cultures. After Genghis Khan destroyed it in 1219, it was rebuilt and profited from the Silk Road. From the 18th to the 19th century, the city...

It was in Tashkent, and it was so sunny and hot.

And there was so much food. Food everywhere.

Robusto

@CowperKettle You live north of almost everyone in North America.

tchrist

Damn, it's 37 not 40.

But again, that's sea level. Still.

Robusto

01:41

So the trade-off is you can have robust Vitamin D or skin cancer.

CowperKettle

@Robusto I live about 60 km north of Edinburgh, Britain

Cerberus

> Except during the summer months, the skin makes little if any vitamin D

This is much worse than what I have read.

tchrist

Yeah. Denver elevation = +2 chest x-rays a year.

So at 1 mile.

Cerberus

If this were true, there should be little difference between Muslimas who stay inside all the time and the average person.

CowperKettle

Cerberus

01:44

And yet they suffer from D deficiency more often here.

tchrist

What are Muslimas?

CowperKettle

The sunny Edinburgh.

Cerberus

Female Muslims.

Robusto

@CowperKettle Yes. Which is way far north. You also live 3° north of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Which is north of probably 99% of Canadians.

CowperKettle

@Robusto Up to age 16, I lived at 63.1 degrees N

tchrist

01:45

@Cerberus Hm.

SRC: health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/time-for-more-vitamin-d

Robusto

@CowperKettle Which is almost as far north as Fairbanks, Alaska.

Cerberus

From what I have read, some/many people suffer from deficiency, but mainly in winter, or in other seasons if they don't go outside much.

I.e. getting some sun does help a lot in spring or even winter.

Robusto

My dermatologist says I need sun protection here even in winter when it's snowing.

Cerberus

Consider also that showing more skin should produce more vitamin D: the intensity of the sun is only one factor.

Robusto

Well, a tee shirt only has an SPF of about 50, so ...

Cerberus

01:49

That is quite a lot.

> Taking vitamin D supplements may help combat this problem. Because the metabolism of vitamin D is complex and excess amounts can be stored in fat and other tissues, it is difficult to determine how long a daily dose of vitamin D would stay in the body, but it appears that large doses will last for approximately two months.

So spring should be worse than autumn.

Although I'm not 100% sure whether vitamin D from sunlight is stored for an equally long/short time.

Robusto

@Cerberus The point is, people think clothing is opaque. But it ain't necessarily so.

Cerberus

> Excessive vitamin D supplementation can cause weight loss, abnormal heart rhythms and increased urination. It can also cause an increase in calcium levels, which can damage your heart, kidneys and blood vessels.

@Robusto Right!

> foods like milk, cereal and some orange juices are vitamin D2- and D3-fortified. (Since the 1930s, manufacturers have voluntarily enriched these foods with vitamin D to help reduce the incidence of nutritional rickets.)

I wonder whether that is also done here.

> it doesn’t matter if you’re getting D2 or D3, and the sunlight-generated kind isn’t better than the nutritional variety. “The body can use each perfectly fine,” says Dr. Insogna.

> As a doctor who treats patients who have melanomas, I want the general public to be advised that under no circumstances can use of a tanning bed or tanning in general be justified on the basis of vitamin D. Take a supplement instead.

tchrist

@Robusto That's interesting. It's not just you, right? You aren't fighting melanoma or anything?

Cerberus

Snow can reflect a lot of light.

In a valley, it could multiply your exposure, perhaps?

Or perhaps she simply meant that no amount of UV-B exposure is harmless, just as with alcohol?

@Mitch Cf. Saturnian verse:

> Ancient grammarians sought to derive the verse from a Greek model, in which syllable weight or the arrangement of light and heavy syllables was the governing principle. Scholars today remain divided between two approaches:

1. The meter was quantitative (but not borrowed from Greek).
2. The meter was accentual or based on accented and unaccented syllables.

tchrist

02:36

@Cerberus I think this may be true.

tchrist

02:47

> After absorbing UVB radiation previtamin D2 is produced. Its absorption spectrum with a wavelength maximum at 260 nm overlaps the UV absorption spectrum for both DNA and RNA and thus would be able to protect DNA and RNA from photodamage.

I don't mean to claim anything. I just thought that that paper has interesting data.

> For example in Boston at 42° North essentially no vitamin D3 can be produced in the skin from November through February. Inhabitants living in Edmonton Canada at 52° North, Bergen Norway at 60° North, or Ushuaia Argentina at 55° South are unable to produce any significant vitamin D3 for about 6 mo of the year.

Robusto

@tchrist No. He was speaking to me but using the general "you" ... meaning everyone.

tchrist

@Robusto Glad to hear that.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, I believe it is true. But what is also true is that we are exposed to things carcinogenic every day, so a minimal level op UV-B exposure may be negligible. Or not. I do not know.

Robusto

Thanks. People I ride with aren't all so fortunate, however.

Cerberus

I'm sorry to hear it.

tchrist

02:54

I got one "mild" sunburn this summer, and I was angry with myself for it. It was due to an unexpected long detour on foot during high summer and high sun that I hadn't planned for.

Cerberus

Such things happen.

Robusto

One guy, ex-Navy captain, has had multiple melanomas. Too much time spent in submarines, I guess.

tchrist

My next door neighbor is being treated for melanoma right now. So are immediate family.

Cerberus

I know some young people.

I must go now, adieu!

Robusto

Later

@tchrist I use sun sleeves while riding or, if it's too hot, Blue Lizard sunscreen. Da best.

Sunscreen on all exposed surfaces.

tchrist

03:05

@CowperKettle @CowperKettle Regarding how vitamin D keeps "bubbling up" in various kinds of research, there's a lot of detailed, retrospective/review data about vitamin D in this long paper I think you may find interesting.

@Robusto Good. I really have to think of it like that. Too often you duck out for something and end up spending more time outside than you ever think you would. Like fetching the mailbox contents and chatting with the postman or neighbor for a long time in the sun.

Robusto

Yeah, and it doesn't take long at this elevation.

Even with sunscreen I tan so deep the pigment lasts most of the winter here.

tchrist

03:41

You must spend a lot of time outside.

2

CowperKettle

@tchrist One of the two authors of the article is the notorious Michael Holick

Michael F. Holick

Michael F. Holick ( HOLL-ik; born 1946) is an American adult endocrinologist, specializing in the field of vitamin D, such as the identification of both calcidiol, the major circulating form of vitamin D, and calcitriol, the active form of vitamin D. His work has been the basis for diagnostic tests and therapies for vitamin D-related diseases. He is a professor of medicine at the Boston University Medical Center and editor-in-chief of the journal Clinical Laboratory. == Professional activities == After earning a Ph.D. degree in biochemistry, a medical degree, and completing a research ...

Who lined his pockets quite a lot from sales of vitamin D products

> Holick received nearly $163,000 from 2013 to 2017 from pharmaceutical companies, according to Medicare’s Open Payments database, which tracks payments from drug and device manufacturers. The companies paying him included Sanofi-Aventis, which markets vitamin D supplements

Robusto

04:02

@tchrist I do. A two- to three-hour ride most days.

tchrist

04:45

@CowperKettle Wow! Thanks for that.

CowperKettle

05:10

To get some LULZ, google "Marquee tag"

CowperKettle

05:27

M.A.R.

Crap. I went outside to buy fresh barbari and my arm is covered in mosquito bites

@CowperKettle That doesn't sound like a good or bad thing, but I'm out of the loop. Why is he notorious? If his research methods are rigorous and he loves telling people how great Vit D is, what is wrong with that? Or is there more to the story?

@Cerberus here I think they blame our diets for vit D insufficiencies

CowperKettle

Barbari bread

Barbari bread (Persian: نان بربری‎, romanized: nân-e barbari) is a type of yeast leavened Iranian flatbread. It is one of the thickest flat breads and is commonly topped with sesame or black caraway seeds. A notable characteristic of the bread is its top skin that is similar to pretzels or lye roll's skin due Maillard reaction that occurs during baking as it is glazed with a mixture of baking soda, flour and water prior to baking. It is widely known as Persian flatbread in United States and Canada. == Etymology == Barbari is an obsolete Persian term for the Hazara people living in Khorasan, Iran...

> commonly topped with sesame or black caraway seeds

sesame seeds are good for health

@M.A.R. Yes, a couple of years ago I read some articles denouncing him as a scientist who got too much enamored with vitamin D, which sometimes happens.

We shall see in 10 years time what comes out of it.

For instance, vitamin E was touted as a good thing, and sales grew, until larger studies showed that it increased all-cause mortality, after which sales slumped.

CowperKettle