English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2021-06-26

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1:00 AM

I stayed in a Moscow hotel (The Rossia) decades ago that had cockroaches. The hotel had some 6,000 rooms and had hosted various conferences of delegates from the entire Soviet Union, who brought their own food and cooked in the rooms. I spent a while flying around the room trying to whack the roaches with a newspaper.

I finally gave up. There was nothing I could do, so I just watched them.

Oh, dear.

That does not sound pleasant.

6K rooms is quite a lot.

1:40 AM

@Xanne They demolished that hotel. I liked it because it was right in the center of the city.

@CowperKettle Yes, it was demolished. It was old. And I think that was the only way to get rid of the roaches.

Or...do they reign supreme on the rubble now?

No, there is a very nice park there now

Zaryadye Park (Russian: Парк Зарядье) is a landscape urban park located adjacent to Red Square in Moscow, Russia, on the site of the former Rossiya Hotel. It is the first public park built in Moscow for over 50 years, the previous being the Soviet Friendship Park built for the 1957 Festival of Youth and Students. The park was inaugurated on 9 September 2017 by Russian President Vladimir Putin and Moscow Mayor Sergey Sobyanin. Time magazine puts Zaryadye Park on 2018 list of World's Greatest Places. == Description == The area of the park's facilities is almost 78,000 square meters, of which 25,200...

Local Muscovite oldtimers hate the park, because there were historical buildings there previously, back in the 1950s.

But tourists love it, because it displays vegetation from different climatic zones.

For some reason, cockroaches almost vanished in Russia at about 2000

They have returned only recently.

Nobody knows why they vanished. There are many theories.

Depopulation of cockroaches in post-Soviet states

Depopulation of cockroaches in post-Soviet states refers observations that there has been a quick disappearance of various types of cockroaches since the beginning of the 21st century in Russia and other countries of the former USSR. Various factors have been suggested as causes of the depopulation. == Background == A mass depopulation of cockroaches has been observed since the beginning of the 21st century in Russia and other countries of the former USSR. Observers have noted a quick disappearance of various types of cockroaches from cities and towns in Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine...

> Scientists from Chelyabinsk and Yekaterinburg have suggested that the Oriental cockroach should be added to the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

Haha

2:07 AM

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Took a DNA test to research his past. Landed in jail, because his DNA was in a database because of a rape he committed 14 years previously.

1 hour later…

3:09 AM

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St. Petersburg is the hardest-hit by covid. And this photo was made yesterday during the annual Red Sails festival that attracted thousands of participants.

Hmm that doesn't look great.

@CowperKettle This page has some rather dubious theories...

3 hours later…

5:58 AM

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25 June 2021: patients in a St. Petersburg covid clinic moved into the corridor, because the wards are full.

25 June 2021: forty thousand school graduates in the center of St. Petersburg

6:46 AM

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Mossy frog

3 hours later…

10:05 AM

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Yekaterinburg police caught a man who was selling counterfeit Certificates of Health that allowed people to avoid vaccination from covid.

10:43 AM

Correspondents of E1.ru went to the center of Yekaterinburg and asked 100 persons about the vaccine

e1.ru/text/health/2021/06/26/69992432

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20 said they have a vaccine, and a further 15 said they want to get vaccinated.

That leaves 65% of those who are unwilling to vaccinate.

4 hours later…

2:31 PM

> A while ago, you participated in my study on which speaker group understands Old English the best. With this email, I want to let you know that you had 18 out of the 25 questions correct. The overall results of the study showed that the Dutch and Frisian speaker groups understood Old English the best. It turned out that English speakers understood it the least.

@Mitch

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Oh, my, I'm in the top quartile for my language.

And nobody scored over 20...

Congrats! By welkin, you did well!

Noun: welkin (plural welkins)

(archaic, poetic, literary) The sky, the region of clouds; the upper air; aether; the heavens.
Synonyms: (dialectal) lift, firmamentc. 1388, Geoffrey Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales:
This day in mirth and revel to dispend / Till on the welkin shone the starres bright
c. 1610-11, William Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act I scene ii[1]:
Miranda: […] The sky, it seems, would pour down stinking pitch, / But that the sea, mounting to th' welkin's cheek, / Dashes the fire out.

(4 more not shown…)

> Compare modern Dutch wolken (“clouds”) and German Wolken (“clouds”).

Well, no wonder you did good.

2:54 PM

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SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant

Delta variant, also known as lineage B.1.617.2, is a variant of lineage B.1.617 of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. It was first detected in India in late 2020. The World Health Organization (WHO) named it the Delta variant on 31 May 2021.It has mutations in the gene encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein causing the substitutions T478K, P681R and L452R, which are known to affect transmissibility of the virus as well as whether it can be neutralised by antibodies for previously circulating variants of the COVID-19 virus. Public Health England (PHE) in May 2021 observed secondary attack...

@CowperKettle Oh, cool.

Without looking it up, which of founder or sunder would you guess to be the elder word in English?

The key is recognizing that foundries and foundlings have deceptively different etyma.

So much so that merely considering their Dutch cognates in your estimation may even do more harm than good.

I would force the use of welkin to revive it. It's a nice word.

3:14 PM

@CowperKettle Makes me think of molluscs. :)

A whelk is: A marine gastropod mollusc of the genus Buccinum, having a turbinate shell, esp. B. undatum, common on the European and North American coasts, much used for food. Also applied, esp. with qualifying word, to molluscs of allied genera, as the hairy or ribbon whelks of the genera Fulgur and Sycotypus, the red whelk (Chrysodomus antiquus), the rough whelk (Urosalpinx cinerea), the dog whelk of the genus Nassa.

Apparently the -in element of your welkin is not a diminutive suffix.

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Implanted an electrode in Substantia Nigra Pars Reticulata, pushed the button, and a woman's hallucinations vanished.

The secondary spike is when they decided to withhold stimulation and look what happens.

And the third small spike is probably despite the stimulation.

Interesting.

SNpr can dampen dopaminergic activity in some pathways. Maybe in that particular pathway the overactivity of which induces hallucinations in schizophrenia.

I'm glad that Musk invests money in neurointerfaces, even if that did not pan out generally, it may at least help some patients.

manikin, napkin, limpkin, welkin, godkin, spratkin, pumpkin, bumpkin, rumkin, merkin, gherkin, firkin, jerkin, bodkin, buskin, calkin, catkin, dodkin, joskin, capkin, ramekin, villakin, tzolkin, Rumpelstiltskin.

@CowperKettle Surprising, a little.

Deep brain stimulation for treating schizophrenia

It's the first attempt at stimulation in that particular region.

Previously attempts were made to implant electrodes in other regions.

It's curious that it worked. But each patient is unique.

This particular patient was severely obese, with a BMI of 54. Gained further 15 kg post-surgery.

3:33 PM

@CowperKettle I would not imagine BMI affected neural patterning, but I know nothing.

> Bodkin, dodkin, godkin.
Calkin, welkin.
Capkin, napkin.
Catkin, spratkin.
Jerkin, firkin, merkin, gherkin.
Ramekin, manikin, villakin.
Rumkin, pumpkin, bumpkin.
Buskin.
Joskin.
Limpkin.
Tzolkin.
Rumpelstiltskin!

Gilligan, begin again.

Finnegan.

He's got whiskers on his chin again.

0

A: Can a souvenir be a non-physical thing?

The OED, which lists a word’s senses in their historical order of appearance in the documented record by year of earliest citation, gives two main senses for souvenir, both attested in the late 18ᵗʰ century by writers from England, emboldening mine: a. A thing or fact remembered; an act or inst...

@M.A.R. You should consider yourself fortunate that you have chanced upon that particular pearl of wisdom long before the customary two score years of life’s exposition had passed you by and you were in your dotage period of reflectance and regret.

4

A: Disambiguating the word "command" in Linux

SUMMARY The type of ambiguity you reference perceiving here is best remedied by using such terms as an executable file or simply executable for the one that has/is a path, versus shell command or command line when you want to reference everything you type into your command interpreter. Historica...

I really didn't think that the question that's an answer to belonged on English Language&Usage instead of on Unix&Linux. I'm glad the denizens yonder accepted my migration thither.

3:59 PM

> ... 13 out of the 25 ...

Better than average for an American!

What's funny is the the wording of the site made it seem like it was -only intended for native English speakers (ie 'please other Germanic speakers stay away') if memory serves, and it often doesn't, but the results make it look like they wanted any native Germanic speaker.

Remember the "How well do different language speakers understand Old English" test? I got the results today.

@Robusto see @Cerberus's and my results above.

> A while ago, you participated in my study on which speaker group understands Old English the best. With this email, I want to let you know that you had 17 out of the 25 questions correct. The overall results of the study showed that the Dutch and Frisian speaker groups understood Old English the best. It turned out that English speakers understood it the least. However, the scores are quite divided between the speaker groups. You can see a more extensive overview in the boxplot graph below.

So @Cerb, being Dutch, edged me out.

@Mitch I see his, not yours.

Oh, it was much nearer. Never mind.

I guess I was at the top of the range for English speakers.

But I don't understand what the little circles mean in the graph.

@Robusto that's classic box plot. the cirlce dots are 'outliers' (which while it sound vague, has a particular numerical calculation behind them)

@Mitch I thought they might be outliers.

But then why wasn't Cerberus's score an outlier?

4:10 PM

the thick bar is the mean, the edges of the boxes above and below the mean are the 3rd and 1st quartile respectively

Ah, OK.

And the terminated dotted lines?

@Robusto all depends on the calculations.

Why I never cared much for statistics.

oh those are called 'whiskers' (so its often also called a box and whiskers plot). Sometimes those are the max and min (but then you wouldn't bother with outliers). So I think they are the 90th and 10th percentiles.

@Robusto it's all rule based, it's just annoying when they don't say what the rules are (or it's not obvious what the rules are)

One thing they really should have said is how many total, and how many in each group. That would go along way towards trusting the values more. Note that they said that they pooled the scandinavians together because they didn't have enough of each.

Oh, and why is the Y-axis of the plot labeled "Native Language"? That makes no sense.

The X-axis labels the languages.

I'm confused.

4:19 PM

omg

we know what the axes are, they just tripped there

but still

Box plots are an OK default for giving a good idea for a univariate distribution. But we have these things called 'computers' nowadays that make more easily understandable vizualizations

It's all about standard deviations, apparently.

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the defaults (or the first choices) in software are just stuck in the past

That makes sense now.

@Robusto to be more precise, that what a box plot looks like -if- you have normal curves. Most box plots don't assume a normal curve (like in the OE language chart, the top and bottom can have different lengths).

OK

4:30 PM

So the Interquartile range (IQR) doesn't have to be symmetric about the mean (in the image you gave there's an assumption of symmetry which is usually not the case)

4:42 PM

@Mitch Everything should be symmetrical. I'm fussy about that.

Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

5:29 PM

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6:29 PM

@tchrist self-deprecating humor is good and all, but I am pretty full of myself most of the time

@M.A.R. That usually sets in as a teenager, at which point you know everything and make sure everybody around you is aware of your self-opinion. It then takes many long decades to disabuse yourself of that notion, and may not ever happen depending on how good you are at introspection and self-honesty.

2 hours later…

8:28 PM

@tchrist I prefer the superscripts.

@tchrist Sunder because founder sounds as though it could be from Latin-French, but I have no idea.

I dislike the slashed zero except in a font used for coding.

Then it is essential.

@Robusto Those are all hand-selected from the set of superiors that comes with each of the two typefaces. You can't get them with dumb <sup>...</sup> stuff. If you try, it looks like carp.

@tchrist I would never have expected those two to be related.

I would say founder and foundry are from Latin fundo, whereas foundling is from find.

@Cerberus Yes, foundries and foundering are from Latin via French.

8:32 PM

Sunder I have no idea about, which suggests it might be Germanic.

@Cerberus That's right.

@Cerberus Funny how that works, eh? :)

Latin is just easy.

Probably Fond du Lac, Wisconsin comes from the same origins.

Founder is probably from Latin fundum?

Sondern did pop up in my head but that's something else.

8:33 PM

Hmm yeah I didn't think of that.

Dutch zonder "without": it's just too different from the English, in the wrong way.

> < Old French fondrer to plunge to the bottom, submerge; also intransitive, to collapse, fall in ruins < Latin fundus bottom.

The simple verb fondrer appears to be rare in Old French; the compounds esfondrer , enfondrer , are common, and occur in most of the senses below; compare afoundered adj., enfounder v., of which founder in some uses may be an aphetic form. The r in the Old French verb is variously accounted for: see Hatzfeld & Darmesteter s.v. effondrer, Körting Lat.-Rom.-Wb. s vv. exfundulare, infundulare; a popular Latin type *fundorāre may have existed, < fundora (see Du Cange) …

Oh, yes, it's fundus.

It's a new word. Entered English in the late middle ages.

After the plague of frogs.

Sonder is ancient, being found mutatis mutandis in the very earliest of Old English writings.

> Origin: Probably of multiple origins. Probably partly a word inherited from Germanic. Partly a variant or alteration of another lexical item.

Etymology: Probably partly (i) cognate with or formed similarly to West Frisian sonderje , sunderje , Middle Dutch sonderen , sunderen (Dutch zonderen ), Middle Low German sunderen , Old High German suntarōn (Middle High German sundern , sündern , German sondern ), Old Icelandic sundra , Old Swedish syndra (Swedish söndra ), Danish søndre < the Germanic base of sunder adv., sunder adj.,

To sunder a connection with something is to go without it, no?

They mention zonderen there.

The obsolete, modifier version has a longer tale.

> Origin: A word inherited from Germanic.

Etymology: Cognate with Old Frisian sunder , sonder (preposition) without (West Frisian sunder , preposition), Old Dutch sunder (preposition) without (Middle Dutch sonder (adverb) especially, particularly, (preposition) without, Dutch zonder (adverb) unusually, exceptionally, (preposition) without), Old Saxon sundar (adverb) separately, alone, apart (Middle Low German sunder , sonder (adverb) especially, particularly, (preposition) without, except), Old High German suntar (adverb) separated from, apart, alone, (preposition) without (Middle High Ger…

@Mitch It was intended for all Germanic speakers!

There's far more than that, too.

> Compare in sunder adv., asunder adv.
Use of this word as an adverb (and as a derived preposition) is well attested in Germanic; it is also used in various Germanic languages (e.g. West Frisian, Old Dutch, Middle Low German, Old High German) as a conjunction in the sense ‘but, however, nevertheless’, apparently arising as a secondary development from the preposition.

Evidence for use as adjective in Germanic is less secure. With use as the first element of compounds in the sense ‘special’ (see sense B. 1) compare similar use of Old Saxon sundar- , Middle Low German sunder- , sonder- , Ger…

8:40 PM

I would not have thought it was related!

I too discounted sondern from my mind.

Sundron just sounds like some Southerling. :)

@Robusto I have always performed far better than I should on multiple-choice questions.

@tchrist Is Sauron in the list?

@Cerberus Quoth Narcissus to Goldmund, per Hesse.

@Robusto I was firmly inside the 4th quartile. I was nowhere near the top.

@Cerberus No. :) He's just a liar by name.

8:43 PM

@tchrist Uhh.

I need an interpreter or a hermeneutic.

I've not read Hesse.

One was an ivory-towered academic portrayed as an ascetic, the other a lusty man of the world with great appetites.

@Mitch Those dotted lines should be the first and fourth quartiles in a standard box plot.

Academics always do well on multiple guess quizzes. That's why they're still in Academe. :)

Those who are poor at answering such tests flee to the world.

One of Hesse's main themes is the dichotomy between the world as we imagine it to be and the world as we experience it.

Ah, I see.

@Cerberus I was considered at the top of the English range, but not an outlier.

@tchrist Narziß und Goldmund, ja sicher.

8:49 PM

Narcissus and Goldmund

Narcissus and Goldmund (German: Narziß und Goldmund; also published as Death and the Lover) is a novel written by the German–Swiss author Hermann Hesse which was first published in 1930. At its publication, Narcissus and Goldmund was considered Hesse's literary triumph; chronologically, it follows Steppenwolf. == Synopsis == Narcissus and Goldmund is the story of a young man, Goldmund (pronounced [ˈɡɔlt.mʊnt]), who wanders aimlessly throughout Medieval Germany after leaving a Catholic monastery school in search of what could be described as "the meaning of life". Narcissus (German: "Narziss or...

It was an odd test anyway.

I made a ton of 50/50 guesses.

@tchrist I read that when I was a young man, which is when one reads Hesse.

@Robusto As did we all. Although apparently Steppenwolf he wrote for one's fifties. But it is read by youth.

Yes.

Also Das Glasperlenspiel.

That was considered his greatest work. It is...complex.

Demian is an easier read for a teen. I'm not sure teenagers have enough of the world in them for Siddhartha though.

8:53 PM

Yes. Der Steppenwolf was the first novel I essayed in German after reading it in English, IIRC.

@Cerberus I emailed back asking why the label for the graph's Y-axis was Native Language. Perhaps I'll receive a reply.

@Robusto Ah, she mixed up the y and x labels.

Y axis should be number of correct words, x native language.

@Cerberus Well, she has the languages correctly along the X-axis.

I'm very slightly surprised that Cerb didn't read Hesse when the former was young.

@Robusto Yes, but not the label.

@tchrist I don't know, perhaps the latter just isn't as popular here?

@Cerberus He was required reading for me in high school.

9:05 PM

That's good, probably.

I know the name but that is all, I'm afraid.

Same with Thomas Mann.

I think he is read more widely here.

I have read Buddenbrooks.

And Tod in Venedig is quite well known, also because of the film.

Oh we had to read it.

The Bayerish was quite incomprehensible, though.

This is hardly new. :)

9:07 PM

I just couldn't understand what the annoying—what was he, a son in law?—was saying.

We read it in translation. I didn't take German in high school.

I dropped German as soon as I could, but I read it later.

@Cerberus IIRC, he enjoyed those games. The Magic Mountain had a chapter in French, IIRC.

Oh, that's cool.

I should read that.

I had intended to, but our English and Speech and German and Latin teachers both died the same night of my sophomore year.

9:09 PM

Car crash?

And they didn't again offer either German or Latin at my school following that tragedy.

No, separate heart attacks.

What were the odds of that, I wonder.

Oh, dear.

How terrible.

How many people was that?

Four?

Two.

Oh, you said both.

A teacher who taught both German and Latin, impressive.

9:12 PM

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That's what a hot air balloon looks like when it's going down hard.

That looks unfortunate.

That happened today in Albuquerque, I just read.

How many deaths?

Four, and one lingering.

I'll never go up in one of those.

Yikes.

9:14 PM

> The gondola of the balloon, which was carrying the five people, crashed into power lines, caught fire and fell into the street. The balloon then detached and floated away, Mr. Gallegos said.

The gondola fell about 100 feet, Mr. Ruiz said.

“My understanding is it skirted the top of the line and crashed into the top of the intersection,” Mr. Gallegos said.

I don't have a problem with small airplanes and gliders, but those give you the feeling that you can control your fate, sort of. You can't really in a balloon.

How are the statistics?

I don't know. I just know I wouldn't feel safe in a balloon.

@tchrist Apparently it crashed near Central and Unser, on the West Side.

> A bystander who intervened in the shooting of a police officer in Colorado on Monday by shooting the gunman was himself fatally shot by a responding police officer, the authorities said on Friday.

The police department in Arvada, Colo., just outside Denver, shared a timeline on Friday that outlined what the police chief, Link Strate, described as a tragic sequence of events that resulted in the deaths of a good Samaritan and a police officer.

Moral of the story?

@tchrist Yeah, I saw that. So much for the "good guy with a gun" as being the solution to gun violence.

9:18 PM

Don't be a good samaritan.

@Robusto It has always been a lie, like everything else they say.

@tchrist One can understand how such a thing happens, can one not?

It is difficult for the police to see who is the criminal and who isn't.

Although of course many smart criminals dress up as policemen...

Anders Behring Breivik

Anders Behring Breivik (Norwegian pronunciation: [ˈɑ̂nːəʂ ˈbêːrɪŋ ˈbræ̂ɪviːk] (listen); born 13 February 1979, legally known since 2017 as Fjotolf Hansen, and also known by his Andrew Berwick pseudonym, is a Norwegian terrorist and right-wing extremist who committed the 2011 Norway attacks. On 22 July 2011, he killed eight people by detonating a van bomb amid Regjeringskvartalet in Oslo, then killed 69 participants of a Workers' Youth League (AUF) summer camp in a mass shooting on the island of Utøya. In July 2012, he was convicted of mass murder, causing a fatal explosion, and terrorism.At the...

That's how the shooting started.

He was a helpful policeman who had called the children to a meeting in order to tell them something about a criminal threat.

I think it was something like that.

sheesh

I remember that. What a horror.

Or maybe he just stood on the stage next to the organisers to protect everyone.

> When Breivik arrived on the island, he presented himself as a police officer who had come over for a routine check following the bombing in Oslo. He was met by Monica Bøsei, the camp leader and island hostess. Bøsei probably became suspicious and contacted Trond Berntsen, the security officer on the island, before Breivik killed them both.[80]
He then signalled and asked people to gather around him[81] before pulling weapons and ammunition from a bag and firing indiscriminately,[82][83][84] killing and wounding numerous people. He first shot people on the island and later started shooting…

His youngest victim was 14 years old.

This was perhaps the only time private citizens wearing guns could have improved the situation, although I believe he did wear a bullet-proof vest.

On a small island without any policemen.

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> The massacre at Utøya remains the deadliest mass shooting worldwide committed by a single gunman.

9:51 PM

@Cerberus Oh. I read what I expect rather than what's written.

Maybe also remember things that way

Who knows!

You'd think one would know better about oneself than anybody. but I've forgotten more about myself than anyone else will ever know.

I know nothing.

@Robusto You could also ask for the number of test takers.

@Cerberus Self-knowledge is overrated

10:17 PM

@Mitch If you say so.

10:40 PM

@Cerberus I don't know

What were we talking about?

11:06 PM

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11:30 PM

@Robusto No drought here. We've just had more than our average monthly rainfall for the month over the past 24 hours. And some of that fell in destructive hail. It's only about 55 out right now.

How are the fires?

> The first team diagnosed Breivik with paranoid schizophrenia[28] but after this initial finding was criticized,[29] a second evaluation concluded that he was not psychotic during the attacks but did have narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.

So much for "precision" of diagnosis in psychiatry.

@tchrist Looks like we're starting the monsoon tomorrow.

I'm going to ride anyway.

11:46 PM

@Cerberus My former pro-Stalin girlfriend said "maybe Breivik was right in some aspects". This was weird to hear.

@CowperKettle Yeah that is an issue.

@CowperKettle Quite. Did she tell you which aspects?

@Cerberus I can't imagine there would be any redeeming aspects to that.

@Cerberus The thing about the LGBT and feminism and stuff

She was very anti-LGBT.

Christ.

I think because she was a lesbian in her youth

11:52 PM

Maybe she tried it in her youth. I doubt if she was actually a lesbian and then it just ... went away.

I really don't understand people who want to find people whose lives are already hard and then punish them for that.

In her school years, she insisted that they put her into the boy's class for arts and crafts, not the girls' one. This is extra-rare, unheard of. I think that she is at least a bisexual, but probably a homosexual.

@Robusto Perhaps not redeeming, but it is always interesting to understand why people say apparently absurd things.

@CowperKettle How did she connect those with Breivik?

@Cerberus She thought that Breivik was against "liberalism" and against allowing migrants. She was against "black-assed migrants" from Central Asia in Russia.

So she thought that he was like a brave knight fighting the wave of dirty migrants.

All right, so she agrees with him on certain issues.

But did she agree with him on any of the actions he is notorious for?

I mean, vegetarians agree with Hitler on vegetarianism.

I did not go deep into that. She was not expressly celebrating the killings. She just said something along the lines that "his ideas were compatible" with her ideas

11:58 PM

OK.

Then she probably meant his broader political ideas, rather than his ideas about killing centre-left children.

I think that 99% of nationalists would not agree with Breivik's killing spree

I gather she liked being somewhat provocative.

Hitler's associates only wanted to exile the Jews to Madagascar, not to kill them.

@CowperKettle Probably more like 99.999%.

@CowperKettle That depends on the associate...

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Jun '2126

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