English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2021-01-13

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12:04 AM

> YYYYYY doesn’t want you. They do want your money though. The Global Investor program in YYYYYY costs around a million bucks for permanent residence. You can then apply for citizenship after eight years of living there. The rub: YYYYYY does not allow dual citizenship. The other rub: YYYYYY is expensive and living here will cost at least $3,000 a month

Firework Hammer

Russian daredevil performs crazy handstands on edge of 23rd floor

Kids At The Zoo: Compilation

12:30 AM

I have a post in need of some love. Can someone give some love?

Can someone give some links?

-7

Q: What methods can a user use to protect themselves?

In the following scenario: posts are harassed by prominent members' comments, and are downvoted, closed and deleted by a group of prominent members after their abuses are exposed flags are ignored meta posts are deleted and threatened contacting community managers receives no response wha...

-9

Q: Let's return to the full meaning of "Unix & Linux"!

Unix/Linux system programming and kernel development are closely related to administration of the OSes. We should take a holistic view instead of separatist one: Explanation of administrative questions often can't be satisfactory without touching the base of system programming and kernel. Syste...

They are currently invisible or nearly so. Need some upvotes.

Thanks, peeps!

12:47 AM

Joint Chiefs Remind U.S. Forces That They Defend The Constitution

1:07 AM

Tucker Carlson Doesn't Understand How Capitalism Works

1:18 AM

@tchrist: We are under 1,000 cases in NM today. Been trending downward for a few days now. Hope it keeps going that way.

Good for you.

We're trending downwards as well, though very slowly.

It is hoped that the trend will accelerate two weeks after Christmas and New Year's Eve, when probably many people were infected.

Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?

2:22 AM

@Robusto I would say it is a railing inside the tunnel towards the light of 70% vaccination.

Or perhaps emergency lighting.

2:42 AM

New revelations about Trump's cruelty demand a bigger response

3:20 AM

This is why Trump's supporters love him. Because of his cruelty.

They like hurting people.

4:00 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, repeating words in answer (174): Comma after "In Section 2", "In what follows", or "In 1999"? by user411296 on english.SE

Bohemian relativist

4:11 AM

I am tired.

Bohemian relativist

4:45 AM

outside is an expanse of white

1 hour later…

6:10 AM

I don't want to belabor the point, but this is an interesting precedent in the history of the US Supreme Court's decisions:

> This Court has made clear, however, that mere advocacy of the use of force or violence does not remove speech from the protection of the First Amendment. In Brandenbrg v. Ohio, 395 U. S. 444, we reversed the conviction of a Ku Klux Klan leader for threatening "revengeance" if the "suppression" of the white race continued; we relied on
Page 458 U. S. 928
"the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing i…

Apparently the case is about the state of Mississippi bringing NAACP to trial for the violent acts of some of its followers.

The accusation was unanimously rejected, of course.

(actually I doubt if it was a precedent. I don't know why I used that word.)

1 hour later…

7:24 AM

@Gigili Lots of people.

I don't understand why people go on and on about Trump as though he's something so special. Yes, he's a loathsome wackjob. There are lots of those around. Often in important positions.

The only unusual thing about the whole episode is how a non-establishment candidate managed to succeed, against all odds. That's very unusual.

The RNC and the DNC have things sewn up pretty tight between them. Usually nobody else gets a look in.

4 hours later…

11:33 AM

user image

Tomorrow it will briefly hit minus 30°C

@RegDwigнt What does that mean, and how does that negate the fact that Putin is poisoning and kiilling innocent people, and that Putin's thugs intimidate people for merely criticizing Putin?

Oh, I forgot, politically motivated murder in order to maintain one's power is "stability" for you.

Matt E. Эллен

@Bohemianrelativist if all you can see is white, it might be that you've gone blind. How many fingers am I holding up?

@RegDwigнt By your arguments I can see how people in every police state have condoned the anti-human oppression. "Don't care if someone is taken to the police, as soon as you are okay".

Your only recourse is cynicism.

1 hour later…

12:42 PM

@FaheemMitha Nagging is actually good for your health.

@FaheemMitha Here's the challenge, name one.

Hint: it starts with TRU

Over to you @Mitch

@FaheemMitha if you look at the resume, it's crazy he got that far (old, no elective office). But as a reality show personality and long time public personality he had great name recognition. All about perceived crlebriry

It assumed the idiocy of a large proportion of americans

@MattE.Эллен ooh I know this one!

Eight, because two of them are thumbs

@Gigili done . And back to you!

Matt E. Эллен

1:04 PM

@Mitch close, but I'm a floating orc head. I don't have any fingers.

1:22 PM

@Gigili Huh?

@Gigili One, meaning a loathsome wackjob?

Can I go international?

@Mitch Yes, it's a remarkable achievement.

1:37 PM

Good day! How much water can one drink with empty stomach in the morning, with no harm?

I tried 6L last morning, and started to feel something

I drank another 8L in the rest of the day, but spread it away

1:59 PM

Murder of Bobbie Jo Stinnett

Bobbie Jo Stinnett (December 4, 1981 – December 16, 2004) was a pregnant 23-year-old American woman found murdered in her home in Skidmore, Missouri. The perpetrator, Lisa Marie Montgomery, then aged 36, strangled Stinnett from behind and removed Stinnett's unborn child, eight months into gestation, from her womb. The child was safely recovered by authorities and returned to the father.Montgomery was tried and found guilty in 2007. She was executed by lethal injection on Wednesday, January 13, 2021 shortly after midnight, after exhausting the appeals process. Montgomery was the first female federal...

A horrible story.

But I still think that death penalty should not be used.

> She was raised in an abusive home where she was allegedly raped by her stepfather for many years. She sought escape mentally by drinking alcohol. When Montgomery was 14, her mother discovered the abuse, but reacted by threatening her daughter with a gun.

> Montgomery tried to escape this situation by marrying at the age of 18, but both the first marriage and a second marriage resulted in further abuse.

Her own mother condoned her raping by the stepfather.

Matt E. Эллен

2:15 PM

2:37 PM

@CowperKettle There are few more horrible than that.

Throwing water into the air at -52 below zero in fairbanks Alaska

@CowperKettle ^

That's at -47 °C

Worst I've ever experienced is -27 °F (-32.7 °C). And that was so cold our apartment's heaters (lakefront high-rise with floor-to-ceiling windows) couldn't keep up.

That was 20 Jan 1985. (wind chill reached –60 (-51 °C with sustained winds around 25 mph (40 kph))

@Tim Never do that! You can die from drinking more than 2L of water in one go.

It's very, very dangerous. Read about "water poisoning"

@Robusto In Noyabrsk, we had triple glazing, so even at -45°С it felt okay ))

In Yekaterinburg, it's only double glazing, and it's sometimes chilly when the wind blows directly into the window.

Triple glazing must be really good in terms of energy saving.

My dad used to put little differently-colored stones between the panes, to reduce the frosting of windows.

Later I learned that people used concentrated acid for that. They put glasses of acid in between the panes.

2:53 PM

@CowperKettle I believe they now put certain gases in between the panes.

Not sure what, could be frosting or condensation.

Or insulation.

I read in a book written about the pre-1917 RUssia that people used small glasses with sulfuric acid

I guess that using some kitty litter would also work

It's silica gel

Bohemian relativist

@MattE.Эллен not all I see are white, but a lot of things, like trees, ground, etc. are painted in white, and there are white flakes dropping persistently.

prosody-Gab Vereable Context

@CowperKettle "The War Zone" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141974 / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Zone is the Hollywood version, and even that version crosses all the words you used.

However, using the wording in a question title, that's another story... If I asked about the events using the words n the Hollywood version I would not have karma.

> The town is overcast with snow,
A counterpane of flakes,
Through which the dweller struggles slow
And sunlight slowly breaks;
In which the traffic seems to halt
And traffic lights to drown,
Another winter day, in short,
That covers with a fairy vault
An ordinary town.

@Robusto I never tried that! I should try it a minus 30°C

3:13 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected (78): Something simple and yet complex... by skootie on english.SE

@CowperKettle Just make sure you don't through it into the wind!

> Insulating glass refers to glass that is made to prevent significant heat transfer into or out of a home or building. It consists of multiple pieces of glass separated by spacers made of either metal, such as aluminum, or structural foam. The space between the glass is sometimes filled with a noble gas, such as argon or krypton. Insulating glass is often abbreviated IG and is sometimes called double-glazed or double-pane glass.
As technology evolves, triple-paned or quadruple-paned glass is now available as well.

> Your IG unit windows will typically be made with low-E glass, which has a coating that reduces the ultraviolet and infrared light that passes through a window. It helps regulate temperature (and energy consumption) within a home by redirecting heat back in the direction from which it is coming.

3:37 PM

> The researchers found that the volunteers being interviewed tended to mimic the physical actions of their interviewer when they were lying. And the more complex or difficult the lie, the more closely they mimicked their interviewer. The researchers suggest this indicates that lying requires so much mental work that the body responds by simply mimicking the behavior of another person rather than generating actions on its own.

phys.org/news/2021-01-liars-body-movements-person-lying.html

@MattE.Эллен Would you mind deleting/editing that line (#56733103?) for me?

I just typed through when I meant throw. Damn.

Matt E. Эллен

@Gigili sure. I can edit it

yesterday, by Johan Larsson

thank you my friend

Matt E. Эллен

@Gigili what should it say?

4:03 PM

Doesn't matter, it must be grammatically correct

4:58 PM

@MattE.Эллен It see no edits yet, just delete it please

user image

5:12 PM

user image

Don't they have bedrolls handY?

Matt E. Эллен

5:45 PM

@Gigili i didn't know what you wanted changed. I have deleted it

user image

This is about leaving out the conjunction, not the object pronoun, right?

Am I mistaken or is there a mistake here?

The object pronoun is left out in all those examples. The conjunction is left out only in identifying relative clauses.

6:03 PM

@Færd Those are all relative pronouns, not conjunctions.

A conjunction does not refer back to an antecedent, nor is it a constituent inside the subordinate clause.

The first examples distinguish between subject and object relative pronouns.

The second set of examples is about defining/restricting/identifying relative clauses versus not.

@Cerberus That's right. I confused the two.

OK.

So a subject relative pronoun would be something like who in "The man who came to the door was my father".

Thanks.

@Færd Yes, that is confusingly labeled. anyway it should just be 'when you can drop 'that', and that would be that.

6:18 PM

@Færd Yes, or I hate the people that attacked me. You cannot omit that.

A relative pronoun is only a constituent of the subordinate clause, not of the main clause.

So this is about whether the pronoun is the subject of the relative clause or not.

@Mitch But it's not just about that.

@Cerberus Got it.

Yay.

7:22 PM

The 1st Amendment doesn't mean what you think it does.

7:34 PM

The 1st Amendment has meant various things in practice during the course of its history.

8:06 PM

Still, the words have not changed.

@Robusto Sounds all very reasonable.

But

in the list of things -not- covered by 1st amendment it lists:

> Fighting Words
True Threats

Those two seem to be quite at odds. with previous statements about 'hyperbole' being OK

what are 'fighting words'?

22 hours ago, by Robusto

Incitement: Is the President Guilty of Inciting the Riot?

He covers a lot of these things.

Does he cover the "I was just kidding" defense?

Watch it and see.

1 hour later…

9:26 PM

@Robusto Who cares about an amendment?

Voting is underway to impeach Trump cnbc.com/2021/01/13/…

He did not say "let's go and take over Capitol" outright, so it's hard to tell whether he incided a riot.

9:56 PM

@Cerberus Americans do. Those whose governments don't rely on our Constitution don't have to.

@Robusto This is not about Americans nor constitutions.

@Cerberus What isn't about that?

It is about whether the power to shut people out from very important channels of communication should lie with huge private companies, or with the state.

@Cerberus Again, you're not defining your terms: this and it are prepositions, not subjects.

You seem to want me to be addressing something I'm not.

It = the central problem.

10:02 PM

I merely linked that article as an interesting discussion of the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. You seem to think I am arguing about something I'm not.

OK.

You seemed to be arguing earlier.

@Cerberus Again, the central problem is a placeholder for something specific.

The reason why Faerd and I find it problematic that Twitter etc. can shut people out is about ^.

There are many currents going on in this chat. I never mean to address all of them in any post I make.

Fair enough.

10:06 PM

Maybe there should be a legal definition of "high-impact network users", and social networks will have to comply with special procedures when curbing high-impact users?

For instance, users with more than x thousand active subscribers

@CowperKettle Good idea. All you have to do is come to the US, become a citizen, run for Congress, get elected, and by using your persuasive skills get a law passed that will do what you want and resist legal challenges. Absent that, get your country to ban Twitter until it gets their favorite mole (Trump) reinstated.

That sounds sarcastic, perhaps, and I don't really mean it that way.

It's not about Trump.

Those are the options you have. Seriously.

What if this will be used as pretext by Putin to ban all opposition in Russian networks?

Putin doesn't need any such pretext, and you know it.

10:10 PM

No, he uses pretexts. Like "in the USA, they would have just shot these protesters". Implying that it's good to suppress street protests.

Even if you got what you wanted from Twitter, he could still simply ban whatever he likes.

Placing the onus on America for troubles in Russia is rather misguided.

All the world is inter-related.

Why don't you rise up and get rid of Putin? That would be a more direct way to solve your Putin problem.

If I make a call for rising-up, would not I be the same as Trump?

I don't know. But I'm not asking you to do that. I'm saying that is one option for you.

This conversation seems to want me to solve all the world's problems. I will confess up front that I cannot.

Sorry. I'm just not that talented.

10:18 PM

user image

10:31 PM

@Cerberus I realize that a bunch of big companies shutting off access to a specific group of people is problematic. But in this instance the desirability of free speech may be outweighed by the inadvisability of incitement to violence of one branch of government against another (or being associated with the inciters).

It's problematic. from both sides.

It's the Voltairean idea to allow people you disagree with to have their say.

But

@CowperKettle So two black eyes not one.

I can't think of a good reason to -force- a media company to be a distributor of -all- content (especially calls to violence)

@tchrist snake eyes

Noun: snake eyes

plural of snake eye (“the eye of a snake”); Used other than figuratively or idiomatically: see snake,‎ eyes.
snake eyes pl (plural only)
(gambling, dice games, idiomatic) two ones, after rolling two dice.

come up with snake eyes

Verb: come up with snake eyes (third-person singular simple present comes up with snake eyes, present participle coming up with snake eyes, simple past came up with snake eyes, past participle come up with snake eyes)

(slang) To fail to come up with anything; to get nowhere.

@tchrist An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. Except that last guy...he'll have one good eye left because nobody can see it to poke it out.

@CowperKettle "You knew I was a snake before you took me in."

10:38 PM

Is there an Aesop fable for everything?

Googling the line, I came across this video

@CowperKettle In craps, snake eyes is a losing roll when "coming out"

Yes, that's why I recalled it. I stashed it into my Anki dictionary, and it worked. I mean it came up in my memory.

Often people will say "snake eyes" to describe something that has failed.

user image

10:44 PM

> The Scorpion and the Frog is sometimes attributed to Aesop, but it does not appear in any collection of his fables prior to the 20th century. However, there are earlier fables attributed to Aesop.... These include The Farmer and the Viper, which warns that kindness will not stop a scoundrel from hurting its benefactor, and The Frog and the Mouse, which warns that treacherous friends often hurt themselves in the process.

user image

Turns out I added "snake eyes" back in May 2019

The Farmer and the Viper

The Farmer and the Viper is one of Aesop's Fables, numbered 176 in the Perry Index. It has the moral that kindness to evil will be met by betrayal and is the source of the idiom "to nourish a viper in one's bosom". The fable is not to be confused with The Snake and the Farmer, which looks back to a situation when friendship was possible between the two. == The story == The story concerns a farmer who finds a viper freezing in the snow. Taking pity on it, he picks it up and places it within his coat. The viper, revived by the warmth, bites his rescuer, who dies realizing that it is his own fault...

→ 1 message moved to Trash for EL&U

@tchrist Spasibo

The Frog and the Mouse

The Frog and the Mouse is one of Aesop's Fables and exists in several versions. It is numbered 384 in the Perry Index. There are also Eastern versions of uncertain origin which are classified as Aarne-Thompson type 278, concerning unnatural relationships. The stories make the point that the treacherous are destroyed by their own actions. == The Greek fable and mediaeval variations == The basic story is of a mouse that asks a frog to take her to the other side of a stream and is secured to the frog's back. Midway across, the frog submerges and drowns the mouse, which floats to the surface. A passing...

Apropos of Aesop

@Mitch Nevertheless, why should not the state make this decision, rather than some private company?

10:52 PM

What state?

@Cerberus how does it matter to society whether or not your supermarket allows you to stand in the middle of aisle five and shout off the top of your lungs "murder all whores!"?

It matters because it is illegal?

Well. So?

Note that I'm not saying it should be illegal. All I'm asking is how does it matter whether or not it is legal for you to do it in aisle five of all places. There are still plenty of other places where you can do it.

I don't know?

If half the country is isle five, then it matters.

Precisely. But all of country is not aisle five.

10:55 PM

All?

It doesn't need to be all.

As long as it is important enough as a place where people speak, it matters.

Sorry, misread. Same point though. Half of country is not aisle five, either.

I don't need to be on Facebook to deny the Holocaust, or the women the right to vote. And Trump does not need to be on Twitter to fuck up America.

There are plenty of other venues.

I don't agree.

Those venues are too big not to be regulated.

Those venues are only big in the eyes of the people using them.

Neither you nor I are on Twitter.

@RegDwigнt *am

@tchrist no.

10:58 PM

But you'll just confuse people if I use that.

Speak for yourself. I never confuse people.

@RegDwigнt True.

@RegDwigнt Ask yourself this question: are you glad Trump is gone from Twitter, and why?

@Cerberus did you hear of that Russian woman the other day whose house was on fire and rather than calling the fire brigade she kept posting on Twitter that her house was on fire?

I know why I am glad, because it has removed him from his most important audience.

@Cerberus honest answer? I do not give a flying fuck about either Trump or Twitter. So I really do not care.

11:02 PM

@RegDwigнt I might actually believe that. But this video is nicer:

NoBillag Nein - Feuerwehr

You probably already know it.

@Cerberus no, his most important audience will follow him around wherever he is.

@RegDwigнt Wrong!

@RegDwigнt Anybody you knew happened to have died because of him yet?

Removing him from Twitter is a nuisance to journalists and other idle onlookers who are only there for the entertainment value.

@RegDwigнt If only that were the case.

11:03 PM

@tchrist well, Cerberus's friend died because of Putin and I still don't give a fuck about Putin or whether he has Twitter access.

Unfortunately, Twitter is a large factor in shaping public opinion in America.

@RegDwigнt Wow, you remembered.

@Cerberus I was vaccinated against social media long, long ago now.

@Cerberus well simply look who's complaining now. The journalists, that's who. His followers simply immediately switched platforms. Within a day. Then Google took that app off their App Store, and they just switched to Telegram within the next day.

@tchrist And I.

@RegDwigнt Probably only a small percentage switched, and they may eventually uninstall those apps again.

@RegDwigнt To prove your point, we could have you banned from Stack Exchange. You could switch to Quora. How would you feel about that?

@Cerberus perfectly fine.

11:10 PM

Oh yeah, then how about Reddit?

Rebecca is fine. Jeff Atwood is fine. Joel Spolsky has moved on. Why am I special. I am not. This chat is a platform.

A platform is not the world.

But some platforms are very important in certain contexts.

@user85795 I am essentially banned from Reddit because they leaked all their user data a couple years ago and in a braindead attempt to fix that they forced everyone to jump through hoops I was neither willing nor able to jump through. I lost access to my account. And I've never looked back.

Mind you, I was among the first 3000 users to register with Reddit.

And I'm user no. 300 here on ELU.

Wow. TIL

Oh yeah, forgot to put Shog9 on the list. And Monica.

11:16 PM

Jordan Peterson gained most of his fame on Reddit.

You must have been there to watch it.

That was long after I had left. I just watched all his videos on YouTube instead, as did most people.

Why?

Anyway. If you need to stay in touch with people, you will stay in touch with them. If you can't be arsed to install a new app to stay in touch with Trump, then you don't need Trump.

@Cerberus why what?

Are you going to read his new book coming out March 2?

No. Didn't read any of his other books, either.

11:21 PM

Yet, you watched all his videos?

I watch everything. I've even watched Titanic.

lol

@RegDwigнt Nobody needs Trump.

I like to build an informed opinion of my own, rather than parakeeting something I read on Twitter.

@RegDwigнt Why did you watch the videos?

11:22 PM

You're too slow. Because see above.

Aug 11 '20 at 16:43, by RegDwigнt

Remember that I've watched every single video on YouTube. And created some of them.

Crazy.

You could have watched other videos during that time.

But, no, you decided Peterson was worth your time.

I've watched Justin Bieber and I've watched the Kardashians. And every single episode of Friends, The Nanny, Married with Children. And the Presidential Debate, live here with you in this room.

And so now I know what to think of all these things. Now my opinion not only exists, but is founded.

Peterson has a lot of videos.

@Cerberus yes but that is true of everything. You could have learned a new language instead of having this chat. And I could have learned a new instrument.

You only get to spend each second once.

Which tells you what?

That I picked this chat over other places to be.

11:28 PM

No, it tells me you are a slacker that can't even be arsed to learn more than 92 useless languages.

@user85795 he does, but Pewdiepie has more.

And Peterson's are not quite as much of a pain to watch as Logan Paul's.

Or Trump's, for that matter.

@RegDwigнt That, too.

But I could be slacking anywhere.

Or did you want to hear it was because of your lovely presence?

No you couldn't. You refuse to slack on Facebook or Twitter.

Because I like SE much better.

Reinstate Monica.

Yes.

11:31 PM

Haha.

You can tell me many fairytales, mythical dog.

But you're telling the wrong dog.

I never.

Are you calling me a fairy??

Who can just grant your wishes magically?

No, I'm from Manchester, that's how I pronounce "furry".

Pretty close.

11:32 PM

Did you guys see the new top dog on academia.se?

There's academia.se?

Do they have a YouTube channel?

nope

Too bad. Pass.

But by the name alone I would have guessed the top and only dog on there can only possibly be our very own dog right here.

Because whenever he's procrastinating, it is always from studying.

Oh, no, it could be anything, these days.

Why, has Covid changed that from studying?

11:38 PM

@MattE.Эллен to be fair, YouTube has not been demonitising LBGT+ channels for no reason. They have been demonitising LBGT+ channels for the reason that they are LBGT+ channels. That is a reason right there, and indeed the reason.

@MattE.Эллен yeah that.

Like, Trump said he could stand in Fifth Ave and shoot someone in the face and nothing would happen to him four years ago. And tonight @tchrist is still somehow surprised that I am not surprised he actually went on to do just that, three hundred thousand times over.

None of this is new. People only ever reap what they sew.

He knows how and why the system works.

We all know how the system works. We're just not always willing to admit that until we're left with no other choice.

That's a matter of standards.

11:56 PM

These days we don't accept standards anymore. Whenever we need a standard, we invent a new one from scratch.

This is your one and only chance to post the relevant XKCD.

This one time I will allow it.

Thanks, but I humbly decline sir.

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