English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:18 AM

Hey guys, survey time question, apropos of nothing. What does this line say to you: "I'm not opposed to the idea but we need to clear some elephants from the room first"?

Ah @Pseudohuman, the question in my last comment should be a good one for you.

Pseudohuman

@Jolenealaska I do not understand.

Jolenealaska

This is not a huge surprise. My friend Alexa kind of chokes on it too.

Cerberus

12:55 AM

@Jolenealaska Hello!

Probably inaccurate use of the expression.

But I would probably read it as "first, we need to solve several issues" or something.

Jolenealaska

@Cerberus hi sweetie!

Cerberus

Hi!

Jolenealaska

@Cerberus it is slightly askew (intentionally), but I think it should be obvious to one who has often heard/used the phase. Is "elephant in the room" an idiom you are comfy with?

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Yes.

But, without context, my guess would be that it was used inappropriately in the quotation, though it is impossible to say without knowing what the 'elephants' are in the present situation.

That is, I believe it is often used improperly, or so I seem to remember.

Jolenealaska

How is it an inaccurate use in that (admittedly out of context) sentence?

Cerberus

1:11 AM

Well, it should refer to an issue that people are ignoring because they feel uncomfortable discussing it.

But it is sometimes used for just any big issue.

Jolenealaska

In this case, it is me speaking to a friend, one-to-one

Big issues (2 of them)

That we have avoided speaking of

Cerberus

Because you were uncomfortable discussing them?

Jolenealaska

yes

Cerberus

That sounds like the ordinary use of the expression, then?

Jolenealaska

Yes, just using a very slightly unusual construction.

Cerberus

1:17 AM

Nothing wrong with varying on a commonly known expression!

Jolenealaska

I'm pondering a discussion that I expect to have tonight.

Cerberus

Hmm.

So did this friend challenge your wording?

What will the discussion be about?

Jolenealaska

No. I'm just trying to not be misunderstood. I want to choose my words carefully. Here be landmines

Cerberus

Ah.

Now you have me curious!

I hope the talk will go well.

Jolenealaska

Here's a tiny bit of context (tip of the iceberg):

25

Q: A friend killed my car. What now?

I had a 2001 Oldsmobile Aurora that I paid $1100 for one year ago. It was a very nice car, even though it was 16 years old. I have MS and driving has become kind of scary; I feel I am a danger to myself and everyone else on the road. So, when a new friend's ("Dan's") car broke down (hopelessly) ...

The friend is "Dan"

That question tells of one of the metaphorical elephants.

Cerberus

1:26 AM

I see.

So what happened after that question?

He ignored you for a while, and then you talked about it again, or something?

Jolenealaska

I shrugged it off.

Cerberus

So wise!

I'm glad you could afford it somehow.

Jolenealaska

For another, somewhat more complicated reason, he was angry with me a few months after that. I don't care about the car anymore, nor do I think he cares any more about what he was mad about.

Cerberus

And you haven't been in contact since then?

Jolenealaska

A few times in the past month or so.

He's coming over for dinner.

Cerberus

1:32 AM

And you want to address those issues first?

What do you hope to achieve?

Jolenealaska

clearing out the elephants

Cerberus

Because they still irk you?

Jolenealaska

I only realized after inviting him that today is Valentine's day.

No, because they make the relationship weird.

Cerberus

OK.

Were you ever romantic?

Jolenealaska

An underlying question here regards a kiss we once shared. And his offer which I declined at the time.

Cerberus

1:35 AM

Ahh.

I don't know whether he cares about the shopkeeper's holiday, but the date could be taken as a sign regardless.

Jolenealaska

Yeah. I'm sure it has occurred to him and I'm pretty sure he sees the date of the dinner as nothing more than funny coincidence.

He made a pretty strong play for me a few months before the events of that question. I was blown away with surprise.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

This could be an interesting evening.

Jolenealaska

I declined only because he was sharing a home with the mother of his child. I told him that I didn't care that there was no romantic relationship there, I wouldn't be the other woman.

Cerberus

Also wise.

And does he still live with her?

Jolenealaska

nope

so

yeah

potentially interesting

Cerberus

1:49 AM

Quite.

Have you decided on the manner of your poaching—err, broaching the elephants?

Jolenealaska

well, that's the wellspring of my initial question here

Cerberus

Need three more pairs of eyes?

Jolenealaska

:)

@Pseudohuman makes... um... 3

Pseudohuman

@Jolenealaska I do not understand.

Cerberus

We have five heads between us.

Jolenealaska

1:54 AM

6!

Cerberus

Oh?

Jolenealaska

I have 2, @Pseudohuman has 1 and you have 3

Pseudohuman

@Jolenealaska I do not understand.

Cerberus

Congratulations on growing an additional head! How did you do it?

@Pseudohuman These are all jokes.

Jolenealaska

look at my avatar!

Pseudohuman

1:55 AM

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Ahh, right!

I always forget that you're no squirrel.

2

You look like a squirrel from afar.

@Pseudohuman I am a three-headed dog, so I have six eyes.

Jolene is two animals, so she has four eyes.

Pseudohuman

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Jolenealaska

I just had a very nice event.

Cerberus

@Pseudohuman You have two eyes. So all of us together have twelve eyes.

@Jolenealaska Oh?

Pseudohuman

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Jolenealaska

1:58 AM

My cat has been terrified of the little aftershocks we've been getting since the big quate on Nov 30.

Cerberus

I have a mystery and a dilemma, in case you're bored and finished contemplating how you will clear the elephants. Neither of them jolly, though.

Jolenealaska

It's just been heartbreaking.

Cerberus

Aww.

Poor kitty.

@Pseudohuman Never mind! It's not important.

Pseudohuman

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Jolenealaska

We just had one.

Cerberus

1:59 AM

Okay, now we can be sure it's a bot.

Jolenealaska

She reacted by coming to me instead of bolting to under the bed.

Progress!

So what are you pondering?

Cerberus

Cute!

There is this girl I teach.

We are at a separate department, close to school but in a different building.

From December onwards, she failed to show up at our department.

(She would come to us after regular lessors end.)

But she told her mother she was with us.

We didn't know that; we e-mailed the girl and reported her with the school, but we thought she was lazy and went straight home all that time.

So it turns out she has been lying to her mother for two months, and to us as well.

The mystery: where the Hell did she go all that time?

She even told her mother she was with us at times when we're not open at all, like Fridays.

how old is she?

13.

ugh

2:03 AM

Which is far too young to be pulling off stunts like this.

She used to be a very responsible (and nice) girl.

She still lies and refuses to tell us or her mother where she's been.

Her mother and we are afraid.

Jolenealaska

no, just the right age for it if my adolescence is illustrative

Cerberus

Well, the 'right' age, but also the very wrong age.

Jolenealaska

yep

danger Will Robinson

Cerberus

Her mother says she is allowed to hang out with friends, so it is unlikely for her to have been with normal friends or class mates.

So what could be bad enough for her to set up such extensive lies, and still refuse to come clean when found out?

I can only think of one thing.

And it isn't good.

Mitch

@Jolenealaska 1) you work at a zoo. 2) you'll need something like a firehose to clean up that one room.

Cerberus

2:07 AM

Her mother is going to take her to the GP's office.

To get her some independent person she can talk to, like a psychologist.

Jolenealaska

Do you think the mother is equipped to deal with the worst scenarios?

Cerberus

But perhaps also to check whether she's pregnant, obviously something her mother is worried about.

The mother seemed good.

Rational and nice.

Jolenealaska

Good

Cerberus

She is Sri Lankan, but her Dutch is quite good.

Mitch

@Cerberus It does not bode well.

Cerberus

2:08 AM

Indeed not.

Jolenealaska

GP as in General Practioner?

Cerberus

Yes.

Now the dilemma.

Mitch

No appreciation for my poop joke?

That's all I have going for me.

@Cerberus Wait... there's more?

Jolenealaska

@Mitch Blame my crappy typing

Cerberus

I told the mother about the possibility of installing spyware on her daughter's phone, so she could see where she was when she wasn't where she was supposed to be.

I am normally against this sort of thing.

But the occasion seems to warrant it.

Jolenealaska

2:10 AM

@Cerberus very sticky wicket

Cerberus

And it will only work if the girl isn't told.

Mitch

if she finds out, she'll flip

Cerberus

So it's a huge breach of trust and privacy.

Yes.

Jolenealaska

yes to all above

Cerberus

And the mother wants me to install it, because she wouldn't know how to and doesn't know anyone who would.

Mitch

2:10 AM

but mom is responsible

@Cerberus wow that's like spy shit you'd have to do

Cerberus

Would you do it?

@Mitch Yes.

Mitch

"Can you run to the store for me? Yeah you don't need your phone while you do that"

Jolenealaska

I wouldn't do it, Cerby

Cerberus

I have never installed such software except on my own phone, many years ago, so I'm not sure how hard it is.

Mitch

Do you know where you are now?

Cerberus

2:12 AM

@Jolenealaska I'm leaning towards no, too.

Mitch

Then your app works.

Cerberus

I have e-mailed a few people at school about it.

I thinking about telling the mother to go to a phone shop and have them do it.

@Mitch Well, it was on my previous phone, but it worked there.

But I had root access.

Mitch

@Jolenealaska I assume you got over your 'rebellious' period as a youth?

Cerberus

And of course the app would need to be hidden.

Mitch

You're not chatting from a correctional facility, are you?

Jolenealaska

2:13 AM

I might do it myself if I was in the mom's shoes. I'd show Mom a YouTube video.

Cerberus

Hmm a Youtube video would be an option.

Mitch

Isn't there a 'track phone' feature (not an app)?

Jolenealaska

@Mitch nope. I'm 51 and still trying to figure shit out.

Mitch

haha.

I hope

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, I was hoping there might be, so it would be a matter of turning it on rather than installing something.

Mitch

2:14 AM

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out things

Cerberus

Her new phone is going to be a Huawei.

Mitch

will I become a rock star?

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Aren't we all!

Mitch

Or a successful brain surgeon?

Jolenealaska

@Mitch I'd make a crack about white privilege here, but I'm a bit low on time and typing ability.

Mitch

2:16 AM

@Jolenealaska Maybe you work there?

By the way, if you work there, maybe you should slow down on the chatting and check out monitor 4a east wing corridor.

Jolenealaska

Ha. If I told you where I used to work, you'd probably think I was full of shit.

Mitch

Like that room with the elephants?

Jolenealaska

Nice one!

Mitch

Woo hoo!

Poop Joke Success!

Next are puns.

Cerberus

But only you can see the poop!

Mitch

2:19 AM

That's why you gotta first get those elephants out

This metaphor is really crappy

Jolenealaska

Seriously, Cerby, my advice is to show mom how to violate her daughter's trust and then walk away.

Mitch

That girl though.

Cripes

She has no idea

Other than all these so-called adults are ruining everything

so uptight

wait, huawei? I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple 'surveillance' features easily available on those.

because China

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Yes, I will do that.

It seems you can just activate Find My Device on any Android phone.

Mitch

@Cerberus There you go.

Cerberus

I will tell her mother to go to a phone shop and have them turn it on, and give her the password.

Mitch

2:25 AM

except...

Cerberus

Although I'm not entirely sure whether her mother will know the girl's Google password...

Mitch

you have to get the kid's phone and have it unlocked. and then activate FMD.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, unfortunately.

Mitch

and then hope the kid doesn't see that setting.

Cerberus

The mother has the girl's pin code and can take her phone away when she sees fit.

Mitch

2:27 AM

and then the first time the girl doesn't show up and the police are sent out to find her smoking behind the doner kebab place, she'll know that she's being followed.

Cerberus

Heh.

Yes.

But the mother will presumably not be so foolish.

Mitch

There's a Black Mirror episode that's sorta in this direction.

Cerberus

But if she goes far away from school and from home, at a time when she says she is somewhere else, then mother can decide what to do.

Mitch

But the kid is not rebellious, just overbearing parent

Cerberus

And she basically doesn't care what happens, as long as she can find out where her daughter has been all that time.

The mother didn't seem overbearing.

Mitch

2:29 AM

@Cerberus a child psychologist... does that ... help?

Cerberus

The girl is allowed to go to the cinema with friends, without parents present.

@Mitch I hope so. We hope her GP will send her to one.

Mitch

from my own non-personal experience during childhood (I knew of similar situations), I'm not sure it works.

Cerberus

I don't know.

Mitch

(but then you don't know if things would have been way worse without it)

Cerberus

For the time being, the mother is not letting the girl go anywhere except to school, to us, and presumably to trusted friends.

Mitch

2:31 AM

@Cerberus There's lying to go shopping instead or there's lying to smoke/drink/etc

Cerberus

But she would have admitted to such things after being found out.

So it must be something more serious.

Mitch

closes eyes

Cerberus

Her mother told her, in my presence, if people have naked pictured of you, please tell me, we will get through this, we will make things right.

Please be honest with me.

But she kept lying.

Mitch

yep

Cerberus

Is the term 'loverboy' used in your parts?

Mitch

2:33 AM

the mom has no idea what's really gong on, but the girl has no idea where it could go.

Jolenealaska

That she is smoking behind the school with a similarly aged boy would be a huge relief.

Mitch

@Cerberus only comically

@Jolenealaska well...

at 13?

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Of course. And her mother told her something like that.

Jolenealaska

@Mitch Big time

Mitch

at 16-17 yeah it'd be a relief (but send her to a gynecologist for birth control info)

Cerberus

2:35 AM

@Mitch Here it designates a (youngish) man who gets a very young girl infatuated with him, then ultimately prostitutes her.

Mitch

@Jolenealaska big time still a relief or big time oh that's bad?

@Cerberus ew

Cerberus

So what her mother is most worried about is prostitution, pregnancy, hard drugs, child porn.

It's so frustrating that she won't talk.

Jolenealaska

Sex isn't assumed in my scenario, but it would be way, way low on the list of things to fear.

Mitch

@Cerberus here it doesn't have that meaning at all.

if ever used it sounds more like a taunt to some guy who might extremely be interested in someone else.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Sex with a classmate would not worry the mother that much, I think, as long as they practise safe sex.

@Mitch I figured.

So it's probably something far less worrying. But we can't be sure.

Jolenealaska

2:38 AM

If the "boy" is 26, then...

Mitch

@Jolenealaska For me, it's like that stuff would just be the tip of the iceberg if she's lying about it. Fear of so many other worse things she's not saying

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Exactly: that would be worrying, and crying out 'loverboy' (as explained above).

She used to be such a responsible girl.

She's very smart and critical, and also very friendly.

Jolenealaska

@Mitch That statement is actually very close to something I'm currently studying.

Cerberus

She got the maximum score on her primary-school 'exam' a year and a half ago.

Mitch

@Jolenealaska academically?

Jolenealaska

2:41 AM

Self-study of a scholarly nature.

Mitch

@Jolenealaska that counts

Cerberus

@Mitch What do you mean, exactly?

Mitch

wait...just the metaphor, or the family difficulty?

Cerberus

Sex would be just the tip of the iceberg?

Mitch

@Cerberus No, the smoking secretively would be.

Cerberus

2:43 AM

Ahh, yes.

So it would indeed.

Even though a tobacco addiction is probably deadlier than anything else that might realistically happen to her.

Mitch

in the long long term

Jolenealaska

Since we're speaking hypothetically of a girl in the Netherlands, perhaps pot is a better illustration of relatively harmless rebellion than tobacco.

Cerby, is the girl cute in a way that would likely interest heterosexual boys of her age?

I wonder that because I was decidedly not.

Cerberus

Well, she is not 'ugly' or anything, but she comes across as a bit geeky.

And she has a slight lisp.

Mitch

siblings?

Cerberus

So I suspect she's not 'popular' like that.

She has a brother, who I believe has serious mental issues.

Mitch

2:51 AM

Once we solve this problem, I think we'll be able to tackle brexit.

Cerberus

Heh.

@Jolenealaska Pot would indeed be fine.

As long as it isn't this huge addiction.

Mitch

@Cerberus mh. maybe a psychologist might help. just somebody to talk to.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, I hope so.

Jolenealaska

That geeky quality might put her at greater risk from older people who would cause her harm. I was certainly stupid that way.

Mitch

what are/were you teaching her?

Cerberus

2:53 AM

Perhaps. On the other hand, she is an independent thinker; she never came across as naïve to us.

But she could feel insecure.

@Mitch Various subjects.

We did optics today.

And English.

Mitch

like extra beyond class, or help with the classes she's taking

Cerberus

The latter.

Jolenealaska

I was not what anybody would call naive. But, I was always looking for adventure.

Cerberus

But my colleague spent more time with her today, as I was talking to her mother.

@Jolenealaska But did you seem like a nice, well behaved, shy-ish girl to your teachers?

Mitch

You're giving us a lot of vicarious things to worry about. But you have to deal with a paying customer who's asking for things a bit ... outside of your expected abilities.

Cerberus

2:56 AM

She's no customer.

Mitch

the mom is

Cerberus

We work for the state; we don't owe her anything.

Jolenealaska

@Cerberus Not shy as I was very outspoken in class. But quite socially awkward.

Mitch

oh

Cerberus

Well, we work for the school, but the school is the state.

Mitch

2:57 AM

ok but there's some sort of personal feeling of obligation somehow?

Cerberus

Certainly.

@Jolenealaska Hmm what was the worst thing you did?

Jolenealaska

@Cerberus All my teachers knew that I had been arrested at 14, but that's just what was known

Cerberus

Hmm that is young.

Mitch

oh shit!

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska What for?

Mitch

2:59 AM

for what Jolene said

Cerberus

My line was to her as well!

Mitch

oh. haha.

Cerberus

@Mitch So I could send the mother away. I could even send the girl away and never see her again, if I wanted to, which we don't, of course.

But I want to help in whatever way I can.

Mitch

@Cerberus Brexit, I expect, will be easier to solve.

Cerberus

And it will be solved by someone else!

Her mother won't let her go places unsupervised for the time being, and teachers will probably watch her, too, so I hope she will at least be unable to go wherever she used to go.

Next week's vacation anyway.

Jolenealaska

3:02 AM

@Cerberus Four friends and I had a bottle of wine and a six-pack of beer in a park on the night that the cops arrested all minors in possession of alcohol in the Des Moines parks. It was really lame. I was grounded for the whole summer between my freshman and sophomore years of high school.

Cerberus

Aww.

That is a rather severe punishment!

Naughty, naughty kids! But booze, come on.

That's just what kids do.

We had some kids busted for drinking in primary school.

Mitch

sounds like a 'teach em a lesson' tactic, scare them out of continuing.

works for some I suppose.

Cerberus

It was a bit of a scandal, and they were punished, but it was ultimately not a big deal.

Jolenealaska

1/5 of a bottle of wine and 1-1/5 beer per hardened criminal.

Cerberus

Oh, dear!

I think our parents let us drink one very little glass of wine when we were 14 at dinner parties.

And we just drank normal glasses from 16 onwards, then the drinking age.

But times have changed somewhat.

Mitch

3:07 AM

in which direction?

Cerberus

The drinking age is now 18.

And schools and parents have generally become stricter.

We used to be allowed to order beers at school parties.

Not any more.

Mitch

yeah that's a weird decision to make. does it make things better or does it make things worse.

Cerberus

It seems the number of drunk kids arriving in hospitals has not decreased since the drinking age was raised.

So I don't know whether it has the desired effect.

Mitch

in the US, all the ages limits have been raised over the past decades to 21. seems really uptight, college age (below and above 21) have a tendency to abuse, but on the whole use of alcohol across the board is dropping.

Cerberus

I am sceptical, especially with respect to naughty kids: those who are prone to binge-drinking are exactly the kind that will get their booze anyway.

@Mitch What limits are those, besides drinking?

Mitch

3:12 AM

I think even buying cigarettes only 21 and above. (these are state laws, so every state could presumably have a slightly different one, but all the states seem to have gone in the some way)

Cerberus

Ah.

Yes, I think our smoking age was also raised from 16 to 18.

Mitch

oh and with the handful of states legalizing marijuana... hm... I'm not sure.

should be 21 also, but I don't know.

Cerberus

But driving has always been at 18, I believe.

Mitch

16 here.

18 to join army and kill people

Jolenealaska

In Alaska, where pot is legal, the age is 21.

Cerberus

3:14 AM

It has always seemed dangerous to me, kids' having a driver's licence at the time when they start drinking. Now they are allowed to begin doing both at the same time here...

Jolenealaska

Tobacco is 19

Cerberus

What are those ages?

Driving and drinking?

I can't imagine 13-year-olds driving cars!

Ah.

Jolenealaska

sorry, weird typo

Cerberus

Heh.

Mitch

in some more agricultural states here I've heard that you can drive at age 12 (to drive farm equipment)

Jolenealaska

3:16 AM

I can't seem to even typo like a normal person.

Cerberus

As long as it's on proprietary land?

Mitch

@Cerberus probably (don't know the details)

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Well, that's the first serious typo I have seen today!

@Mitch I don't think we have any ages on private land.

Children are allowed to practice driving in their parents' driveway, as long as it's safe.

Mitch

oh sure

parking lots

Jolenealaska

My grandparents lived on a farm. I drove cars, trucks, tractors and horses quite regularly by 12ish.

Mitch

3:19 AM

That sounds like fun.

except chores

Jolenealaska

It was.

Cerberus

Nice.

Jolenealaska

And I loved my grandmother most of all people on earth.

Cerberus

Good.

Jolenealaska

I need to start making dinner. I'll pop back by in a bit.

Cerberus

3:24 AM

Good luck!

Mitch

later all

Adrenaxus

7:39 AM

Good Morning to everyone

Hello, I need your help briefly. We are designing a new logo for our company (we make websites and sell computer/IT stuff). Currently there is the following slogan under the logo "links the digital world". I was telling my boss that I find it a bit strange, and that to me "linking digital worlds" sounds somewhat better. What do you guys say? Does "links the digital world" make any sense to you as a slogan for an IT company? Thank for your input, cheers :)

Jason Yu

8:53 AM

Hello, anyone here?

SmokeDetector

9:13 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (260): How to answer "how's it going man?" by Cindy Anthony on english.SE

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…