English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Tonepoet hi. Can I say "I just wanted to make sure my problem is dealt with" after a problem has been dealt with or is only was grammatical here?

feel free to reply me anytime you are free.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent "Was" or "has been" are the only variations I recall. The present tense substantive verb would usually be reserved for cases when the resolution is still in progress, as in "my problem is being dealt with as we speak".

M.A.R.

@englishstudent It's not wrong to my ears

Let's make up a grammatical explanation. WE MUST MAKE IT RIGHT

englishstudent

@Tonepoet oh, okay. Thanks for the explanation.

Tonepoet

4:37 PM

@englishstudent Actually now that I think about it I'm not sure if I should have said substantive or copular.

englishstudent

5:28 PM

@Tonepoet Oh it is fine. “Copular” and “Substantive” are linguistic words. Detail is always good but you did solve my query. :)

I would say that is a present tense copular or linking verb.

Cerberus

5:55 PM

Noun

A noun (from Latin nōmen, literally meaning "name") is a word that functions as the name of some specific thing or set of things, such as living creatures, objects, places, actions, qualities, states of existence, or ideas. Linguistically, a noun is a member of a large, open part of speech whose members can occur as the main word in the subject of a clause, the object of a verb, or the object of a preposition. Lexical categories (parts of speech) are defined in terms of the ways in which their members combine with other kinds of expressions. The syntactic rules for nouns differ from language to...

That's what you get when you search for "substantive".

I'd rather not use substantive for anything other than a substantive noun.

Tonepoet

6:40 PM

@Cerberus Substantive verb is a fairly nominal grammatical phrase, as exemplified by Merriam-Webster's 2c definition, used to describe the verbs categorized as inflections of be, with substantive being used because the verbs allegedly indicate the passive state of existing as an action. It's different from use of the word substantive to indicate the thing that does the existing...

Cerberus

Well, I have never heard anyone use that, as opposed to existential.

It may be a little bit confusing.

What do you mean by nominal?

Nominal as it noun-like?

Tonepoet

Normal, I think I meant.

Wrong word altogether there.

Cerberus

Ah!

Freudian?

The word substantive made your subconscious think of nouns too much?

englishstudent

Hi doggy. I mean, sir.

I mean, Cerberus.

Yes. That’s proper.

Tonepoet

I wish I could give myself that much credit but I think it's more of an imitative error. Wiki. states "Sometimes the word 'nominal' is misused in engineering contexts as a synonym for 'normal' or 'expected'; for example, The rotor resistances on all the other operating wheels are nominal." on their Real versus nominal value webpage.

Cerberus

6:56 PM

@englishstudent Woof!

@Tonepoet Good, good.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet Good, food.

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Oh it is fine, you can make mistakes Tonepoet, we all know you are an intelligent and smart lexicophile. :)

"nominal" confuses me too at times.

"nominal" and "face value".

M.A.R.

EVEN I, THE GREAT M.A.R., sometimes get confused.

Diels–Alder rate discussions confuse me.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent I wish I could say I feel the same way. I dislike how today's errors become tomorrow's dictionary entries and I suspect this is quite how it happens.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet dord.

Tonepoet

7:09 PM

@M.A.R. Not really an abbreviation for density. ;-)

M.A.R.

Bah, what did the smiley change confer?

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Well sticking your tongue out is more for ironic humor, whereas a wink is supposed to indicate an in-joke, I suppose?

M.A.R.

Whereas a wink is redundant

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Mar 2 '16 at 11:24, by IͶΔ

The wink is the most redundant emoticon in the emoticon history of emoticons.

Good times good times

I was INDelta then

Tonepoet

Perhaps to the direct recipient of the message, and not much more than a change in vocal inflection to a knowing tone.

Mitch

@M.A.R. A wink is as good as a nod

M.A.R.

7:17 PM

Damkerng in the ELL chat has proven nods are kinda useful.

@Mitch Welcome back

Mitch

nods

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:38 PM

@Tonepoet "today's errors" are only errors if there is some authority to designate them as such.

Tonepoet

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you implying that I am not qualified to tell you what I really meant?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet No. I'm being devil's advocate, but only sorta. Meaning makes usage, but Usage makes meaning.

The problem with disliking how today's errors become tomorrow's acceptable language is in defining what is an error today.

M.A.R.

Thankz datz a good poin

English in 200 years ^

Tonepoet

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's tricky but not impossible. The whole goal of a word is to convey a thought through recollection of a concept. When recipient of a message is confused by a relatively abnormal or unprecedented usage of a word, I think it's safe enough to say that's erroneous. This is especially so when two similar, yet distinct words are interchanged.

Cerberus

That is not the whole goal.

Aesthetics, humour, etc. are also important.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:48 PM

@Tonepoet Sure, but "abnormal" and "unprecedented" are relative terms.

M.A.R.

IOW, it's more of grey than black in most parts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

for example, it's completely normal and precedented to use the word "tabled" to describe an action taken on a piece of legislation, but I can't read it without being confused about what is meant, because I can't keep track of whether the legislation is being brought forward or pushed backwards.

So confusion doesn't mean error.

Tonepoet

I'd consider that an error of some sort, although perhaps not an accidental one.

Cerberus

You should define "error" first.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet well, for some speakers, you table legislation to discuss it for approval, and for some speakers, you table legislation to set it aside from the current discussion.

It's not an error. That's what they say.

But I can't keep track of who says what, so I have to guess based on context.

Usually there's enough information, but sometimes there isn't.

I just read something where a group was warning about a piece of legislation being proposed in some US state. It says "The bill, (since tabled), calls for X, Y, Z."

I don't know if the (since tabled) means the bill is no longer being considered, or has moved into the consideration stage.

M.A.R.

8:02 PM

@Tonepoet Everyday I read a lot of sentences that are ungrammatical but I understand them. Are they erroneous?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@M.A.R. I'd say, yes, by definition

M.A.R.

Well, ungrammatical by any reference book our there

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but grammar is just convention

and different people use different conventions

so one person's error is another person's normal thing

and for one person to dislike some other person's language is just arbitrary.

Cerberus

Arbitrary?

Or perhaps well-reasoned, in some cases?

Tonepoet

8:26 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes and no. The convention is ultimately arbitrary but it's also what ultimately makes the language what it is. If everybody completely disregarded the conventions, we would have no language. These days, we have well recorded indications of just what the conventions are, so deviation is somewhat less acceptable, especially if you want to have a widespread language. The variations of English share more of the conventions in common than they do not. Once that starts to differ...

... what you get is usually another language.

Scots is somewhere around the border of what can be considered English, and I would essentially disqualify Old English (by which I mean Saxon, and not Early Modern English) as being the same language as what we speak today, even though our language is derived directly from it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:52 PM

Sure. But the point still stands: what's an error is merely an error according to some convention. But different people using different conventions isn't necessarily an error. People using the word nominal to mean acceptable may seem like an error to those who don't recognize that usage, but it's hard to argue that those who do recognize it are committing an error rather than using a different convention.

Cerberus

I think this discussion is not very useful without defining a few essential terms, like error.

Tonepoet

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 One of the more difficult points is that in some way we all at least purport to be using the same convention.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet yeah.

And I agree that some of today's "errors", which are popular among young people, get on my nerves and I cringe that tomorrow's language will use it as standard. But that's just old-man-itis.

Tonepoet

I wonder if that's cognate with obstinateness. =P

@Cerberus Defining it ourselves would require establishment of yet another convention that would in all likelihood be restricted to this particular discussion, so I'd rather not.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you should have your old man removed.

@M.A.R. At night, all cats are gray

Cerberus

9:05 PM

@Tonepoet You need agreement on some conventions in order to be able to conduct a discussion successfully...

I think what Mr Shiny is saying is that a certain linguistic usage can't be "wrong" in the sense "deviant from the truth".

Mitch

@Cerberus We could have an entirely consistent discussion with the same vocabulary, but with the meanings for 'error', 'convention', and 'mazel tov cocktail' replaced by means for 'spittle', 'bar', and 'beer' exchanged respectively.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus That's true but I consider those conventions to be pre-existing by virtue of having a language.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch That's, kinda, like... all of me.

Mitch

or is it 'chair', 'table', and 'beer'?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. then it'll be an easy procedure, outpatient. shoot, sedation probably not even needed

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:09 PM

@Mitch I don't want to be shot.

with or without sedation.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Preëxisting? I'm talking about defining a few terms in a discussion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think this discussion is a good example of the point it is making. People use words but don't always agree on what the meanings of the words even are.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 shit

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hah.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Okay, I inserted a dash.

Cerberus

9:10 PM

Indeed.

@Tonepoet Oh, I didn't mean the hiatus.

Although the trema is conventional in this room...

We write noöne and preëmpt here.

Mitch

@Tonepoet "You're living in your own private language, underground like a wild umbrage"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What? blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah? How dare you.

@Cerberus But the convention is in Rome this term

@Cerberus That's just asking for me to reply "I disagree"

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm sure they'l use the trema.

Mitch

There's gotta be a Kermit the Frog quote that's relevant here.

Cerberus

@Mitch I expected no less!

Mitch

@Cerberus But I didn't, just to be unpresidented

Cerberus

9:16 PM

Haha.

Mitch

wait...is a trema the same as a diaeresis?

Cerberus

I like your new spelling kanvenshan.

@Mitch Yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha. but it's not just new spelling it's new meaning. words mean what Humpty Dumpty wants them to mean.

If only he weren't so fragile.

@Cerberus what are the Hungarian bunny ears called then?

Tonepoet

@Mitch Oh I'm underground alright, but more so because I've been living under a rock on another planet for all of these years. That's since the early 19th century to be more precise. =P

Mitch

like for 'Erd?s'?

Cerberus

9:18 PM

@Mitch Did you do it on purpose?

@Mitch Umm Hungarian bunny ears, I would say?

Mitch

of course!

@Cerberus ha...not that literal.

or rather a 'snack'.

Cerberus

I really have no idea.

Mitch

Paul Erdős

it's not an umlaut

a tremolo?

Cerberus

Ah, those.

I don't know.

Mitch

yeah.

oh

dangit

Tonepoet

9:21 PM

@Cerberus Where'd you pick up that definition by the way?

Mitch

Double acute accent

The double acute accent ( ˝ ) is a diacritic mark of the Latin script. It is used primarily in written Hungarian, and consequently is sometimes referred to by typographers as Hungarumlaut. The signs formed with diacritic marks are letters in their own right in the Hungarian alphabet (for instance, they are separate letters for the purpose of collation). == Uses == === Vowel length === ==== History ==== Length marks first appeared in Hungarian orthography in the 15th-century Hussite Bible. Initially, only á and é were marked, since they are different in quality as well as length. Later...

Hungarumlaut

now we know

but that's only a convention

I call it something else, and you better all get used to it

But I'm not going to tell you what I call it

keeps the game interesting

Cerberus

@Tonepoet From his attitude?

Mitch

@Tonepoet That's a hard question to answer since, by our definition, Cerb is not making or using a definition there

Cerberus

> In handwriting in German and Swedish, the umlaut is sometimes written similarly to a double acute.

We learned to write it like that in school.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 a shot with sedation at least I'd be sure of what I was getting.

@Cerberus Oh, really?

it's hard to do simple dots in handwriting

except for periods

or full stops

I think the Hungarian ő is pretty much the same as a German ö, a rounded middle front

Tonepoet

9:31 PM

@Mitch Then allow me to reword that. Where'd Cerberus get the quotations he presumably quoted by virtue of their encompassment in quotation marks? =P

Mitch

@M.A.R. Everyday I read a lot of sentences that are grammatical but I don't understand them. Do you have IKEA where you are? YOu'd know exactly what I'm talking about if you tried to put together a particle board bookshelf.

@Tonepoet ah.. he wasn't using those quotes to signal verbatim copying from something previously said. He was using them as 'scare' quotes to signal that the meanings of the terms inside the quotes may be used ambiguously, ironically, figuratively, or (in this case) possibly under alternate definitions.

So he "got the quotations" (paraphrased quote from you) by interpreting the situation and describing it. "wrong" corresponding (but not necessarily equalling) outside the norm of a convention, and "deviant from the truth" meaning "wearing a flower print chiffon scarf with a black pencil skirt and power shoulders navy blazer on top".

I know it's risky but some can pull it off.

Tonepoet

@Mitch That's not mutually exclusive usage though. Usually scare quotes are from somebody whose use of words you are critiquing or a term of widespread usage.

Mitch

Have I mentioned Beyoncê today?

@Tonepoet By "usually" I understand you to cover the range "hardly ever" to "almost always"

This is all fine and good but what about the human condition?

Tonepoet

@Mitch That is because you and I probably disagree on the degrees of frequency under consideration when selecting the word.

Or something that would influence that.

@Mitch As for the human condition, I think it's pitiable.

Cerberus

11:19 PM

@Mitch I think you have explained me very well.

@Tonepoet I was trying to paraphrase Mr Shiny, using the quotation marks to indicate some distance between me and those words.

Tonepoet

11:31 PM

@Cerberus That's actually quite interesting. Wouldn't you know that Mr. Noah Webster used some of similar words to describe the concept in the main body of his definition, albeit with further explanation and additional sub-senses.

"Error, noun [Latin error from erro, to wander.] A wandering or deviation from the truth; a mistake in judgment, by which men assent to or believe what is not true. error may be voluntary, or involuntary. Voluntary, when men neglect or pervert the proper means to inform the mind; involuntary, when the means of judging correctly are not in their power. An error committed through carelessness or haste is a blunder."

Cerberus

What aspect is it that you find interesting?

Error means wander.

De-via- means off way.

Tonepoet

In latin yes. That would usually be described as an etymology fallacy when describing English, though it seems to have been relatively well preserved by our demonstrated usage. Do you disagree?

Cerberus

I think people who use the term "etymological fallacy" all the time in a condemnatory way often don't fully understand what they're saying.

The repeat what they have heard others say.

They lack certain linguistic knowledge and fail to see the nuances.

Tonepoet

Hmm, I suppose that's agreeable. That's true of much learning though. Imitation is both a simian and feline hobby though.

Cerberus

11:50 PM

Feline, even?

Tonepoet