English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

00:23

Does anybody else wish that the internet permitted paragraph indentation?

tchrist

@Tonepoet I wish I knew what you meant.

Tonepoet

00:50

There's a right way and a left way to do it, and I prefer the right way. =P

Indenting paragraphs, rather than using hard returns is denser, shapelier and allows the additional nuance of making a hard return for further topic segregation than simply starting a new paragraph allows. However, it's also difficult to execute due to the way H.T.M.L. and wraparound works. I know you can make non-breaking spaces, but tabular indentation is typically preferred.

tchrist

01:39

I refuse even to look at something with fake Latin.

2

However.

This is something that needs to be controlled by style sheets on the web.

Realize that the web is still not up to Gutenberg's skills at a setter of type.

It's pretty laughable, really.

But it is getting better.

Most people don't notice, and don't care.

And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls.

And tenement halls.

@Tonepoet Take that!

Tonepoet

02:03

Thank you @tchrist, that's interesting. Perhaps I should learn how to use C.S.S. I vaguely wish H.T.M.L. tag attributes were still standard though. Some websites like Stack Exchange one allow you to use basic H.T.M.L. tags, but I doubt we have much if any control over C.S.S. Maybe I'm wrong though since I haven't looked too deeply into it.

@tchrist Also that's quite true. It is much too true of many things as a matter of fact.

tchrist

No, you cannot do that here, at least not in a way that would allow others to see what you see. The most you could do is have some customizations only you could see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet What do you mean, "html tag attributes were still standard"?

Tonepoet

02:19

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Older versions of H.T.M.L. predate C.S.S., so there had to be another way of formatting text. Previously, you had to code everything in on a tag by tag basis. One example of a tag attribute is the href attribute of the anchor (<a>) tag, which is commonly used to create hyperlinks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh, you mean, like <body bgcolor=#000000 color=#ffffff> ?

yeah those are terrible

The web is so much better now that we have CSS. Although CSS isn't without its flaws, the separation of presentation and content is a huge benefit.

what would you use the attribute-based presentation for?

Tonepoet

In this case I was thinking I'd like to use the paragraph tag (<p>) with an attribute that only indents the first line of a paragraph. I'm not sure if one of those ever existed though, and more importantly, it looks like the paragraph tag forces a hard return here. I think I figured out how to approximate the effect though <br /> &emsp;

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

CSS text-indent property

where is this html you're authoring? your own website, or a site like SE, where you have limited markup available?

Tonepoet

Here specifically.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:35

ah. Well, yeah, here, specifically, markup of any kind has to be allowed or else it is rejected, because HTML/CSS/browsers weren't designed for part of the page's content being potentially hostile to the rest of the page.

So you can't apply random CSS or attributes

even if there was a pre-CSS way to specifying the text-indent property, it probably wouldn't be in the list of allowable html attributes you can specify.

gotta run. ttyl

Tarun

08:44

is this sentence correct "It was I that gave away the prizes".

Andrew Leach

Use that for things and animals. Use who for people.

It was I who gave away the prizes.

But that's either archaic, pretentious, or extremely emphatic.

Normally, "I gave away the prizes" would be sufficient.

Tarun

As per Wren and Martin, We can use "that" to refer to person as well. For .e.g "This is the boy that I told you of"

"He that is not with me is against me"

Andrew Leach

09:00

The second one is Biblical, when English was very different.

The first one is colloquial, it's how people speak. As your sentence isn't generally how people speak, it should be absolutely correct.

Tarun

may be then the rule given in the book is incorrect. "That is used for persons and things. It may refer to a Singular or a Plural Noun"

Andrew Leach

The difficulty is with the "It was I...": people just don't use that construction, unless they are being deliberately archaic, possibly unconsciously pretentious, or extremely emphatic.

That can be used for people, colloquially. Your sentence is not colloquial.

Therefore that jars.

If you made your sentence more colloquial, with "It was me..." then that would fit better. But I'd still write who.

The way people speak English can be different to written English.

Johan Larsson

09:34

@AndrewLeach > Message is too long

skype/lync, message was 12 lines of xml

perhaps a setting somewhere but wtf

Andrew Leach

Presumably the chat protocol they use is designed for chatting.

terdon

@AndrewLeach "Terdon? Forget that idiot!", "Which brother, this one or that one?", :P

Johan Larsson

@AndrewLeach Good thing they have you defending them!

Andrew Leach

@terdon Difference between determiners and relative pronouns?

@JohanLarsson Well, that's not to say it could not be better.

But if you try and use software outside its design parameters, it will probably fail.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Also a failure to read the rest of the transcript before getting all excited and going "Oh, oh, oh, I get to nitpick on something Andrew said!"

Andrew Leach

09:46

@JohanLarsson At least the message was informative, which is more than some of Microsoft's are.

Johan Larsson

yeah +1 for that

Still an annoying limit, don't have that with other chatclients.

They probably have different limits

> OO-notation

terdon

10:42

bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37285796

> The order of adjectives, according to the book's author Mark Forsyth, has to be: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose.
"If you mess with that word order in the slightest you'll sound like a maniac, he warns in the extract. "It's an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out. And as size comes before colour, green great dragons can't exist."

user227867

11:13

@terdon I just accepted your answer.

terdon

@JasperLoy 👍

user227867

I have a post where an upvote was lost due to a user being removed. This loss is reflected in some places but not in others, like the network profile. SE needs to work on its code.

user227867

Today is 9/9, on both sides of the Atlantic.

terdon

@JasperLoy That's a caching issue, almost certainly. Give it a few hours, they don't update everything all the time, that would be a huge waste of bandwidth.

SmokeDetector

11:58

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: What to do if my essay in English contains a lot of errors? by Stacy on english.stackexchange.com

Mitch

12:47

@JasperLoy You just missed Square day: 9/4/16, or better in European style 4/9/16

Cerberus

13:16

@Mitch It's not European...

And hello.

Mitch

@Cerberus 4 days ago wasn't 4/9/16 in European style?

Cerberus

There are more places than just Europe.

Mitch

Oh

I guess

Cerberus

I know, shocking!

Like Vanatu.

Mitch

Weren't they all part of Europe though?

Cerberus

13:21

Nope.

Mitch

@Cerberus Colonized

Cerberus

We never quite managed to conquer China or Japan or a host of other places.

Mitch

By the hegemonic polynesians

@Cerberus Doesn't Japan count as an American imperial acquisition from WWII?

Cerberus

They'll come for us eventually.

@Mitch Perhaps, but it's not European with respect to dates.

Mitch

@Cerberus It's unamerican with respect to dates

In every way.

Cerberus

13:23

Everyone is unamerican.

Mitch

looks over shoulder

Shhh...

Cerberus

Perhaps the country will be liked better when it has lost more power.

Mitch

Led zeppelin - Immigrant Song

►

Cerberus

Better than China.

The Devil you know.

Oh, I have to hurry.

Adeus!

Mitch

Everything about that song holds for the Polynesians. Except for the ice and snow part.

@Cerberus later

@Cerberus I think there'll be a lag time. eg Germany has been doing so well for 70 years, but the first thing anybody thinks when you say 'German' is 'Sieg Heil' everything.

It's taken 500 years for the Mongols to change their reputation from murderous continent conquering violators to quiet herdsmen.

And ~700 years for Vikings to become the land of 'prisons are like luxury summer camp you can't leave (except you actually can'

But more importantly:

"The dormice leaving is a sign of the end of times"

tchrist

14:17

@Cerberus The tale of the devil and the cyber.

Helmar

14:33

Tada

0

Q: Suggested tag wiki blueprint

Our taxonomy is a mess. As second part of my two part approach to try changing that to the better this is a suggested blueprint for tag wikis. (Part One: Tagging Guideline) In this post I am suggesting a blueprint for tag wikis. If the feedback is well I'll put the result in a CW answer and acce...

@Mitch Not sure that has happened yet

tchrist

Helmar

@tchrist Where are the Mongols in there?

tchrist

Cf. Down Syndrome

Helmar

14:50

english.stackexchange.com/tags/single-word-requests/info

The "learn more" does refer to something SE has since renamed?

@tchrist I know the relation between Mongols and the disorder but I still don't get the connection to the picture.

I found the learn more, but it's only in one of several instances where the info is shown, I'll edit it out.

MetaEd

@Mitch "Once, all the Germans were warlike and mean, but that couldn't happen again. We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since then."

Helmar

@MetaEd Well they stationed nuclear weapons on German planes anyways

tchrist

15:07

@Helmar A passing fad.

Helmar

@tchrist We don't want them, you can have them back anytime. ;)

terdon

15:28

@MetaEd Yay for Tom Lehrer!

MetaEd

@terdon Evil sense of humor. Love him.

terdon

One of the funniest humans to ever draw breath in my, no so humble, opinion.

MetaEd

@terdon I think he's funniest when he's exhaling.

Cerberus

@Mitch Mm quite possibly.

But that time varies.

Germany is already almost universally liked, I believe, despite all the jokes?

Helmar

15:45

Guess it always depend on whom you ask.

Just googled country associations

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2471475/…

Cerberus

@Helmar Haha.

Helmar

@Cerberus There are some gems in there :)

user227867

North Korea is carrying out nuclear tests.

Helmar

Supposedly even successful ones

user227867

@terdon It has been a few days actually.

terdon

15:59

Oh. Well, maybe give it a few days then? :P

user227867

@Mitch Which reminds me that this Sunday is 911.

Helmar

I guess the UN will have to send another sharply worded letter to end those nuclear shenanigans. ;)

terdon

I wish they'd also send one to the rest of the nuclear powers. . .

user227867

The power of the UN is an illusion. It has no power at all.

terdon

It has the power to choose the color of the napkins in top level dinners.

user227867

16:02

The power of the SE mods is real though. Just click one button and the user is suspended for a year.

terdon

That's something.

Helmar

Hans Blix.mov

►

@terdon More like the power to argue about that napkin colors :D

terdon

Someone just used (: instead of :) in another chat room and that got me wondering. Is that how people whose native language is written right-to-left write smileys?

Helmar

@terdon Not in general, apparently

unglobalpulse.org/…

But they are on 2nd place

MetaEd

17:02

@terdon ̤︵

terdon

Poor @MetaEd. When he heard he won the election, his face fell.

MetaEd

Not nearly as nice as it looked in Notepad. :D

Mitch

@MetaEd leers menacingly at Swedes, Mongols, and Germans in the room

MetaEd

ha!

Mitch

@Cerberus OK. Except by Greeks.

user233358

17:11

Good evening.

Mitch

hey

user233358

I'm thinking what to answer on the main site. hm seems tough.

user227867

Answer nothing.

user233358

yeah good advice.

Andrew Leach

Arrowfar, you have a Rio avatar :-)

user233358

17:19

Hi Andrew. Yes it is :-)

NVZ

I've googled enough for one lifetime, and yet couldn't find any references to cite here. I'd like to see opinions from senior members regarding my answer.

0

A: How to write two alternative sets of nouns in one sentence, e.g., using parentheses?

Readers who know that Tx and Rx are two different things, will find your proposed sentence okay. Maybe, adding an or would help clarify. "A virtual Tx (or Rx) is an image of the physical Tx (or Rx) at a reflector plane." "If this answer is useful (or not useful), then upvote (or downvote) it."...

terdon

@Mitch Yeah, Germans have never been popular in Greece. Certainly not in my lifetime anyway and, I'd guess, not since before WWII. And their popularity has reached a new low in the past few years, of course.

@Cerberus what makes you think Germans are popular? I've never seen that. The French, Spanish, Greeks and Brits aren't particularly fond of them, for example.

Cerberus

@terdon Well, have you looked at the chart?

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon Neither are Americans.

Cerberus

Germany is the most popular country in that list.

terdon

17:25

@Cerberus Of course not! Why would I let data stand in the way of decent prejudice?

What chart?

Cerberus

Even though they lack a sense of humour or irony.

Kit Z. Fox

Positive influence != popular.

Cerberus

2 hours ago, by Cerberus

@terdon Wise.

They killed many of our people, but Germans are now generally liked here—both German tourists and Germany's foreign politics. And also the way the country looks and functions when you go there.

I can't say the same about all countries.

terdon

@Cerberus Oh, yes I'd seen that one. But that's only a measure of perceived influence of each country. That doesn't necessarily correlate with how popular the country's people are.

Cerberus

Germans are a paragon of benign mockability.

@terdon Depends on your definition.

But in any case I do believe there is a substantial correlation.

Matt E. Эллен

17:28

China is the most populous... kinda the same thing

terdon

The stereotype I am familiar with (and have seen in many countries) is that of stodgy, officious, fun-hating bureaucrats on the one hand and drunken, rowdy louts on the other.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен ?

terdon

Not saying it's true, mind you,.

Matt E. Эллен

popular is similar to populous

Mitch

@terdon Sadly I think the country is respected, but maybe not individuals.

terdon

17:29

@Mitch Yeah, that sounds about right.

Cerberus

@terdon The former stereotype is alive and well here. The latter is not really common.

The top 5 of worst tourists certainly does not include Germans here.

@MattE.Эллен Hah!

terdon

Point is that while Germany might be respected and considered benign, the Germans aren't particularly well liked in my experience.

Matt E. Эллен

the stereotype of "fun loving" Germans I think it comes from Berlin

with the raves and sexual promiscuity

terdon

Or just of their association with beer, perhaps.

Cerberus

@terdon I think they are much less liked in Greece than in most countries!

terdon

17:30

It doesn't take much to build a stereotype.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon oh, yes. I always forget that for some reason

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Right, but even they lack humour.

Mitch

@terdon There's a saying (in the South (of the US)). Southerners hate blacks as a race but like them as individuals. Northerners like blacks as a race, but hate them as individuals.

(I think that's mostly true except that Southerner's probably also hate them as individuals)

terdon

@Cerberus Sure, but that's because of the crisis. As I said, my experience in the UK, France and Spain was the same. Nobody was particularly fond of Germans. Germany is respected, Germans less so.

And don't ask me how that makes any sense.

Cerberus

Okay, well, my impression is different.

terdon

17:32

@Mitch :)

Cerberus

But of course it depends on what question you ask.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think in Spain and Greece the drunken rowdy louts as tourists is a common view

Cerberus

As a friend, perhaps Germans score lower.

terdon

@Cerberus Well, maybe because you guys are closer geographically so you might have had your prejudices diluted by actual (gasp!) experience.

@Mitch Yeah. Although the English are by far at the top of that list.

Matt E. Эллен

experience? I'll take media induced biases over real life understanding any day. much less effort

Cerberus

17:33

@Mitch Aren't all northern and eastern-European tourists seen that way there?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен and the rapping and the jiving and the...

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Damn straight!

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch pokemons

Cerberus

@terdon Possibly. But we do dislike some other tourists from nearby countries...

terdon

@Cerberus The English are a special case in Spain. For some reason, there seem to be plane loads of really sad people who descend upon Barcelona and then proceed to get pissed off their heads in poor imitation English pubs serving worse beer than they get at home and at higher prices. I don't know who those people are and where thew travel companies dig them up, but there seems to be a wealth of them in England. Apparently.

Mitch

17:36

@MattE.Эллен "You see, the kids, they listen to the rap music, which gives them the brain damage, with their hippin' and the hoppin' and the bippin' and the boppin' – so they don't know what the jazz is all about!"

Cerberus

@terdon British tourists are seen as the worst by far here.

From other countries I also hear lots of complaints about British and Russian tourists with respect to rowdiness and noise.

terdon

Well, the worst for me are Greek tourists. But then homegrown assholes are always the most annoying. You know their breed of assholery all too well and getting away from them is one of the major reasons you left the country in the first place. And then the bastards follow you to wherever you are!

Cerberus

East-Asians get in your way the most (they travel in large groups and are totally oblivious).

Mitch

@terdon the binge drinking, the ugly styling of khaki shorts and sunburn.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch makes me nostalgic for the 90s

terdon

17:38

@Mitch And the little head bands with illuminated devil horns. Don't forget those.

Cerberus

@terdon You are mistaken. Dutch tourists are the worst. When abroad, we switch to English or French or German immediately as soon as we spot "Yetis".

(Tall and pale.)

terdon

@Cerberus Yep. As I said, homegrown assholes are always the worst.

Cerberus

Yes, and...they might want to talk to you. shivers

Mitch

@Cerberus My general impression of other general USans impressions of tourists is... The place is so big, you ony get tourists in NYC, Boston, DC, LA and Disney World. So Americans impressions of particular countries is almost never guided by personal experience but exactly what Matt said. Fictional media.

Matt E. Эллен

other people, man

Mitch

17:42

@MattE.Эллен I just wore that last week!

terdon

And then they walk around the city with those ridiculous horn things.

Sigh.

Matt E. Эллен

oh! hen doos

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен The worst!

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Is that what they're called?

Cerberus

@Mitch Right, I believe you get far fewer foreign tourists.

Matt E. Эллен

17:42

in the UK, yes

Cerberus

I was searching for "Nederlandse toerist", but I get this:

I need to go to Croatia.

Mitch

@terdon Rawr!

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Can you, perhaps, explain the reason for their existence? As far as I can tell, they seem to be some sort of substitute for a brain.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon it's the female version of a stag doo (i.e. bachelor party)

terdon

But that might be my prejudice.

Mitch

17:44

@Cerberus #-wise we get comparable to France (I vaguely remember). But percentage wise and geographical coverage much different.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Ah, yes, OK. I thought you were referring to the horn thingie.

Cerberus

@terdon Hah, yes, we have tons of hen and stag parties too.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon oh :D nah, I can't explain that

Mitch

the horn things are just regular evening wear.

a tiara of sorts

terdon

@MattE.Эллен That's the one that gets me. Some of them have little lights in them. They blink at you!

Matt E. Эллен

17:44

tiara of the devil!

@terdon uniform mischievousness perhaps

Mitch

If you're drunk they look really good

But also if you're that drunk to make them look good, you'll vomit all over yourself

Cerberus

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен And where then does the stereotype of "fun loving" Dutchmen come from?

Cerberus

@Mitch Right, pretty tiny as a percentage.

terdon

@tchrist cough pot cough

Matt E. Эллен

17:46

@tchrist @Cerberus, no doubt. singlehandedly making the Dutch cool since 1981

tchrist

@terdon Use a smaller bong.

Johan Larsson

why do people go to france?

Matt E. Эллен

LOL

terdon

@tchrist :)

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh, no, I'm boring. I've never even smoked weed.

@JohanLarsson Yo!

Because France is great?

Mitch

17:47

@Cerberus I find some of those hard to believe... so many for China yet so few for Japan? Japan is so much more accessible.

Cerberus

Although I'd love to visit Sweden some day.

terdon

@Cerberus Let's not get too excited here. But yeah, France is gorgeous and has great food.

tchrist

@JohanLarsson To defeat dictators?

Matt E. Эллен

@JohanLarsson perhaps good wine and food? also, Paris

Johan Larsson

I don't think I have been to france

Cerberus

17:48

@Mitch I don't know: I think I know about as many people who have visited either country. China is quite accessible?

Matt E. Эллен

I don't like wine or food, so I can't say for sure

terdon

France would be absolutely perfect if it weren't infested by Frenchmen.

Cerberus

It's also much larger.

terdon

Then again, same goes for Greece and Greeks.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

Cerberus

17:48

@terdon Greece is great too.

I like Frenchmen.

terdon

@Cerberus Yeah. If only it weren't infested by Greeks. Sigh.

Cerberus

Even Parisiens are always nice to me.

Mitch

@Cerberus well, I'm spitballing, but I think Japan has a better tourism infrastructure

Cerberus

I like Greeks too.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist don't understand, as usual :)

tchrist

17:49

@Cerberus It's your accent.

@Cerberus Well.

Mitch

and so likely more accessible to foreigners.

Cerberus

All of southern Europe is so much more relaxed than northern or eastern Europe.

terdon

@Cerberus OK, that must be some kind of weird gay culture thing because nobody and I mean nobody has ever accused Parisians of being nice.

Damn, you must be hot.

Cerberus

@tchrist Not so much my accent as my lack of vocabulary...

Mitch

also China has only recently (past 20 years) invested in its... hm...I wonder if the Olympics skewed that considerably.

Cerberus

17:50

@terdon I've only been to a gay bar once in Paris. I don't think I've ever spoken to any gays there.

tchrist

Thanks, Donald.

terdon

Huh. In my experience they tend to be rude, pretentious and aloof.

Hell, even Parisians don't like Parisians.

Cerberus

I know Parisiens have a bad reputation, but that has not been substantiated in my presence.

Mitch

@terdon Yes, parisians are universally considered jerks. the rest of the country is very amiable though.

terdon

That it is.

Cerberus

17:51

They always speak English with me when they hear me struggle.

terdon

But that's true of most of the Mediterranean: likeable and inefficient.

tchrist

French? Speak English??

Mitch

But back to the issue of Iran...

Cerberus

Another cliché busted (that they refuse to speak English).

tchrist

Incroydonable.

Johan Larsson

17:52

they speak homo

Mitch

Why is Iran at the top of that list?

terdon

@Cerberus OK, you've only been there once and that was while dreaming, right?

Cerberus

No, 3+ times.

Mitch

Iran is one of the few civilized places in the middle east.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch maybe the survey was only answered by US Americans?

Mitch

17:53

And people (individually) are the nicest ever

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Huh? You're American?

Cerberus

And I've been to many other French cities, always quite nice.

Matt E. Эллен

or not answered at all by people in the Middle East

@terdon no

Mitch

My data is purely from the media where Iranians themselves are present

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен No, they asked people from 22 countries.

From all continents.

Matt E. Эллен

17:53

@terdon United States Americans

terdon

@MattE.Эллен I know. But pun about us Americans

Cerberus

Especially Antarctica.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus oh

@terdon oh!

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I' not sure who hates who more of those within the middle east

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus highly popular

Cerberus

17:54

I meant the respondents.

Mitch

@Cerberus Antarctica? Those guys are total jerks.

Cerberus

But, yes, very few people had a negative opinion of Antarctica.

NVZ

I feel invisible.

Mitch

@Cerberus Probably because they haven't been there

Cerberus

@Mitch Which ones? The polar bears?

waits

@Mitch How likely is that?

Mitch

17:55

@NVZ I feel full.

today is going to be a good food day

not that other days are bad.

user233358

so Dutch sound good when they speak English? I have never heard them speak English, um, maybe I have. can't remember.

user233358

@Mitch I can't see that in the list.

Mitch

I don't want other days to get jealous

Cerberus

Mitch

@Cerberus If you restrict your pool to extreme weather geologists/biologist, nearly 100% of those who haven't been there think it is great.

Cerberus

17:57

Do you ever call them ice bears?

@Mitch There you go.

Mitch

the other percent won't say, their lips are sealed.

NVZ

Ice Ice Bearby

Cerberus

Or, rather, frozen tight?

Mitch

@Arrowfar different list

32 mins ago, by Cerberus

2 hours ago, by Cerberus

user233358

oh that one.

user233358

17:58

I missed that.

Mitch

@Arrowfar Almost universally, the Dutch and the Scandinavians have near unnoticeable accents when speaking English.

terdon

How much influence has N. Korea had in the world FFS?

Mitch

@Cerberus Never

user233358

Ouch! Pakistan is third.

Mitch

because they're not called that

NVZ

17:59

@Mitch that is so unbelievable.

terdon

@Mitch And very often speak it better than the natives. Curse their linguistically capable blond heads.

Cerberus

@Mitch *highly noticeable

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…