English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

stack

01:33

"that's it" and "just that" are the same?

Færd

02:20

@stack No.

> A: I want a carton of milk. B: That's it? A: Yes.

> A: I want a carton of milk. B: Just that? A: Yes.

But not generally. The first one is a sentence and the second one is not, for one thing.

tchrist

Both are utterances, replies.

Færd

Yes. Can be.

Tonepoet

02:37

@stack "That's it" can mean a variety of things depending on just what the antecedents for each word are. Sometimes it's exclaimed to highlight a realization similar to "Eureka!" for instance. "Just that" has a more specific meaning due to the word "just" and often implies an expectation of something more.

tchrist

02:55

SOS

Eso es.

Færd

03:16

I deliberately avoid the 'Fanatic' badge. So lame to be your only gold badge.

Lawrence

@KitZ.Fox Is Hillary Clinton popular in America? Going by the media, she seems to be more accepted than Trump, but an American I met recently thinks neither is particularly well liked in America. (I'm asking as someone outside the US.)

Tonepoet

@Lawrence It pretty much boils down to this: The party's nominee is the patron saint to everybody in that party and may as well be Hitler to members of the opposite party.

tchrist

@Lawrence Well, she's popular amongst most Democrats and some Independents. She’s tolerated as the only alternative to Trump now by a few Republicans. But many of the more frothing Republicans have still demonized her into an old witch out to do unspeakable evil. Bottom line is that she is not as good a politician as her husband.

Færd

You can wait and see what portion of the whole eligible population votes for her. But that will be those who like her to be the leader plus those who want Trump out at the cost of her leadership.

Lawrence

@tchrist @Tonepoet Interesting. I had the impression that the dislike for both candidates was held by the same people. (There will be many supporters, of course, otherwise neither would be presidential candidates.) Is there (at least a perception of) a broad understanding in the US of their policies, and are the policies of either candidate accepted across the Republican/Democrat divide?

tchrist

03:29

Trump has policies?

Lawrence

@tchrist Oh dear. :)

tchrist

Yes, it really is that bad and worse. And I am no nutter.

Tonepoet

@tchrist He wants to build the Greater Wall Than China's.

Lawrence

@Færd If it's just about the two candidates, it looks like Clinton will trump Trump.

Færd

That doesn't mean she's admired nationwide.

tchrist

03:31

It's a long time till the election. Anything can happen. They don't call it an October Surprise for nothing.

Færd

@Lawrence nytimes.com/2016/09/06/us/politics/…

tchrist

nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/03/us/elections/…

Yours is newer. :)

Lawrence

@Tonepoet @tchrist Yes, I heard about his joke. Reminiscent of stuff that went around about dubyah, only more so.

tchrist

George the Younger was a terrible, terrible president. And Trump makes him look like a saint.

Færd

He had a nice accent.

Lawrence

03:36

@tchrist @Færd Thanks. Looks like there are other candidates for President, not just Trump and H. Clinton.

tchrist

Well, except there aren't.

I have to go to sleep.

Tonepoet

@Lawrence No, Bernie's a democrat and he lost the bid for nomination.

Færd

Goodnight.

Lawrence

@tchrist Freudian slip. :)

@tchrist Have a good rest.

Tonepoet

If Hillary can't win, no other democrat will at this point either.

This is part of what causes the whole "Lesser of two evils" mentality among voters.

Lawrence

03:38

@Tonepoet I was referring to the 'Greens' mentioned in @Færd's link; perhaps there are others. It's difficult to be the US President from a minority party, though. Maybe impossible.

Tonepoet

@Lawrence Yeah, I summarily dismissed it as a possibility when interpreting your statement. =P

Lawrence

@Tonepoet This is America. As tchrist said, October Surprise. :P

But yeah. Unlikely.

Tonepoet

@Lawrence I do wonder why he said that when the vote's almost always in November. I think he's just being liberal with his words again. XP Or maybe not.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet Interesting. This is kind of how semantic drift begins, sometimes.

Tonepoet

@Lawrence It's also why the existence of reference works makes semantic drift less tolerable, esp. as access becomes more readily available though. Even in the early 20th century Huber Grey Buheler mentioned just how significant the advent in the printing press was for retarding lingual change, although to be fair he said it was still subject to change.

I'm not sure how the Internet changes things though.

Lawrence

03:58

@Tonepoet With the Internet, we have large populations that don't speak idiomatic English that nevertheless can have broad exposure. With enough influence, particularly in specialist areas, their size can make their style of speech seem idiomatic. It's a short leap from there to having the alternate phrasing become entrenched. It's the village-dialect phenomenon on a broader scale. How it affects established styles, time will tell.

Tonepoet

04:09

Excuse me while I go to the Anime Stack Exchange chat.

tchrist

newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/…

stack

04:27

@Tonepoet ah thank you .. and thank you @Færd

Is this a correct answer when a person pings me and tells me a point about what I've said already:

> thanks for bring this up

or

> thanks for picking this up

Tonepoet

@stack It is difficult to say without more context. If I can assume you are appreciative for it, "bring" should be bringing or maybe it should be "thanks for reminding me".

stack

@Tonepoet ok what about "picking" ?

Tonepoet

@stack I'm not as sure. Minimally I would say "Thanks for picking this up again" but it does not seem to fit the context very well. Usually it's somebody who wants to bring something up who says something along the lines of "Let's pick this up again."

user227867

04:58

Hey @Tonepoet.

Tonepoet

Hi @JasperLoy

user227867

@Tonepoet What made you join SE initially?

Tonepoet

I don't recall.

user227867

Hmm, I think I will delete my account again at the end of this year.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Then you'll have to bother earning the rep. to join chat again. XP

user227867

05:04

You seem to like anime a lot.

user227867

@Tonepoet Yeah, but this time I think I won't come back again. =P

Tonepoet

Ah, something bothering you?

user227867

But I have said that many times. =P

user227867

Nope.

user227867

Anyway, you have my email, if I am gone.

user227867

05:08

I think I have finally decided to get the ODE, but I want to wait for a new edition. The last one was 2010, 6 years ago.

Tonepoet

You might be waiting another four years on it.

user227867

I hope that the next edition of NOAD drops the N and becomes OAD.

user227867

Just like how NODE dropped the N and became ODE.

user227867

ODE also means ordinary differential equations to me, if you have heard of them.

Tonepoet

I'm no math wiz. unfortunately.

user227867

05:11

Well, if you know what derivatives are in calculus, ODEs are just equations involving derivatives of functions.

user227867

Have you done calculus in school?

Tonepoet

You're grossly overestimating my education. >_>

I don't even want to say by how much exactly.

user227867

Oh OK. You must be really young then. Hehe. Enjoy your life. Mine has not even started yet.

Tonepoet

I didn't say that though.

user227867

Yes, I am just guessing. I have been guessing a lot about you.

user227867

05:14

Anyway, you can just think of derivative as gradient of a curve at a point, something like that, for now.

user227867

Seems that many Americans only study calculus in college, which is not a bad idea at all.

user227867

Some countries do it in like high school.

user227867

@Tonepoet Neither am I, LOL.

tchrist

05:41

@Tonepoet I shall be sad if it turns out that you are only ten years old.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Hmm, I suppose that means you think it's plausible.

user227867

08:05

Good morning @MattE.Эллен!

Matt E. Эллен

hi @JasperLoy

user227867

I learnt some new words: manspreading, dadbod.

user227867

It's quite true that the questions on ELL look better than those on ELU.

Andrew Leach

No-one wants to change the URLs over.

user227867

Perhaps this is because people ask here first.

Andrew Leach

08:14

Indeed. "There must be a Stack for English, right?"

user227867

Do any want to merge the sites? I do.

user227867

IIRC, ELL only existed because of Jeff Atwood.

Andrew Leach

I'm not sure merging would serve any purpose better than getting the differentiation right in the first place.

And no, it wasn't Jeff.

user227867

He made a comment and Robert Cartaino changed his decision.

Andrew Leach

Ah, well, influence is different from sole cause.

user227867

08:16

Ah I see Andrew has inside info, lol.

Andrew Leach

The Area51 proposal didn't come from inside. It came from ELU members wanting a differentiation.

user227867

And some want the reverse, an integration, lol. Calculus!

user227867

@tchrist You should edit your chat profile accordingly now that you are a mod here.

Tarun

08:58

Once again i land in problems with usage of proper pronoun.

Who will help me? if not __ (he or him )

Matt E. Эллен

him

Tarun

@MattE.Эллен Could you please explain why?

Matt E. Эллен

you want an object, him is an object, he is a subject

Tarun

Do you mean here "him" is object of "help" ?

Matt E. Эллен

yes

answers to "who" questions are usually objects if it's just one word

so, "who is at the door?" "him/me/them"

when you turn it into a full verb phrase you use the subject: "he is [at the door]"

"Who will help me, if he will not [help me]?"

Tarun

09:15

@MattE.Эллен "if not him" does not sound like answer to "Who will help me". Sorry i have hard time to understand that.

Matt E. Эллен

well, no, it's not. "if not he" isn't an answer either

putting the question mark where you have doesn't make sense

Who will help me, if not him?

Who will help me? Him.

Tarun

@MattE.Эллен Thanks. I understand your explanation for Objects standing for answer to "Who".

Matt E. Эллен

you're welcome!

RegDwigнt

10:00

@MattE.Эллен sorry to break the news to you, but in the great scheme of things, nobody at all listens to the Queen. Only a couple Brits do, and only when they feel like it.

Tonepoet

10:15

@RegDwigнt What do you suppose would happen if she tried to refuse royal assent to a law?

Matt E. Эллен

@RegDwigнt I've seen you listen to the Queen

RegDwigнt

10:40

@MattE.Эллен The Who?

Matt E. Эллен

@RegDwigнt No, the Queen.

Andrew Leach

Not The Prodigy then.

RegDwigнt

@Tonepoet the universe would explode and the dinosaurs would come back to life and eat Jesus. OR nothing at all would happen and everything would go on as usual.

And then a couple decades later, you would die.

@MattE.Эллен the Queen of the Stone Age?

Matt E. Эллен

@RegDwigнt The Queen

RegDwigнt

Of the Rolling Stone Age.

Matt E. Эллен

10:44

Gathers no moss

RegDwigнt

Kate Moss gathers no middlestone.

Matt E. Эллен

but maybe the middlekilogram

RegDwigнt

♫ I see a question and I want it voted closed ♫

Matt E. Эллен

have I heard that song before? it seems familiar

RegDwigнt

Lol wtf my font is wrong. Or my browser. Or my Linux. Or all of the above.

I copied and pasted this:

And got this:

@tchrist will faint.

Tonepoet

10:54

@RegDwigнt That song and dance routine is a little too common here.

Matt E. Эллен

♫

the up notes are going down!

or vice versa

RegDwigнt

More to the point, my dear Beethoven, the eighths are sixteenths now.

I knew you were deaf, but I thought it was Bach who was blind.

Matt E. Эллен

mathmagical!

it's just more proof that we live in a universe where you can create matter and energy from nothing

RegDwigнt

@Tonepoet that song might be common here, but I am not, so I guess we're even.

@MattE.Эллен it's just more proof that we live in a generation of retards that can't get the most basic things right.

Like look at them people can't even hold a phone correctly.

Like WTF is this.

Matt E. Эллен

you misspelt species

RegDwigнt

11:00

Nonono, my nun could hold a phone alright, and she was not from Volcan.

Matt E. Эллен

everyone gets things wrong, but some people get enough things right that we haven't gone extinct yet. but soon...

Tonepoet

@RegDwigнt Steve Jobs lives!

RegDwigнt

Steve Jobs dies!

Actually, sorry. The actual headline is Steve Job dies.

My bad.

Good jobs, Chicago Tribune. Good jobs.

Tonepoet

What's wrong with the one in the middle?

RegDwigнt

I don't think you've had enough coffee.

Three out of the four are fine. Which is what makes the fourth all the more ridiculous.

Matt E. Эллен

11:06

The Trials of Job

►

RegDwigнt

We're gonna be reading from Jawb?

Is that the latest Steven Spielberg movie?

Now featuring a whale instead of a shark?

Matt E. Эллен

maybe featuring the Prince of Whales

RegDwigнt

I fast forwarded through the video, and at no point did Serena Williams start playing table tennis. I am disappoint.

Matt E. Эллен

purple baleen, purble baleen

Tonepoet

@RegDwigнt Actually I'm just half blind, apparently. When I judged from the thumbnail I thought the last one was a lowercase j for a proper noun. No, it's uppercase.

Matt E. Эллен

11:09

@RegDwigнt that's a risk you take with all youtube videos

RegDwigнt

QI: Welsh racism with comedian Rob Brydon - BBC comedy

►

Matt E. Эллен

so I'm a bell ringer. who knew?

RegDwigнt

Purble baleen, oh I swear what he means
At this moment, you mean everything.
With you in that dress my thoughts I confess
Verge on dirty, ah come on baleen.

@MattE.Эллен you're a bellend.

At best.

Matt E. Эллен

an ellen with both thumbs raised? not right at this moment

RegDwigнt

It's okay I got time I'll wait.

Matt E. Эллен

11:13

oh, now I am

RegDwigнt

Great Scott.

Matt E. Эллен

Lesser Scott

RegDwigнt

Gotthold Ephraim Lesser Scott.

Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (German: [ˈlɛsɪŋ]; 22 January 1729 – 15 February 1781) was a German writer, philosopher, dramatist, publicist and art critic, and one of the most outstanding representatives of the Enlightenment era. His plays and theoretical writings substantially influenced the development of German literature. He is widely considered by theatre historians to be the first dramaturg in his role at Abel Seyler's Hamburg National Theatre. == Life == Lessing was born in Kamenz, a small town in Saxony, to Johann Gottfried Lessing and Justine Salome Feller. His father was a Lutheran minister...

He spent his entire life lessing everything.

What a dick.

His mom was a nice feller tho.

His father, on the other hand, a tyrannosaurus monster.

Matt E. Эллен

Luther and Ross. is that an episode of friends?

RegDwigнt

No, of Superman vs. Ross Noble.

Apparently DC have been milking the franchise quite a bit.

Matt E. Эллен

11:18

lol

Mitch

11:45

@RegDwigнt it's a cash cow

And that's no bull

Matt E. Эллен

not even a little bullock?

user227867

Lots of online news articles have lots of typos. The world is ending.

user227867

Do they have a spelling class in journalism school?

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy the world isn't editing, more to the point

Tonepoet

@RegDwigнt How many decades has it been since they weren't?

user227867

11:58

@Tonepoet The current AHD is the most beautiful physical book I have seen,

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy The Fifth edition?

user227867

@Tonepoet Yes, so much that I am now thinking of getting it to admire it every day.

Tonepoet

How does it pass on the definition tests you set out for it?

user227867

I really like the usage notes.

user227867

The website is also beautifully designed.

Tonepoet

12:02

Yeah, they put quite a bit of work into it.

The first edition isn't much to laugh at either. There were some good writers working on that. It's probably smaller though.

user227867

Also, I have never gotten an American dictionary in my life. Perhaps I should try new things, since I am feeling particular American these days.

Tonepoet

It couldn't hurt.

user227867

It gives full pronunciation in the print form.

Tonepoet

I didn't know that.

user227867

But it is not IPA.

Tonepoet

12:10

I don't think any of the American dictionaries are, except maybe the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary.

user227867

@Tonepoet MW Advanced Learner's uses IPA!

Tonepoet

That makes sense.

user227867

It doesn't seem very popular though, now only first edition.

user227867

I really hate circles, so I hate the MW Logo, LOL.

user227867

I much prefer rectangles.

Tonepoet

12:14

Well most people would prefer O.A.L.D. for a learner's dictionary anyway. I don't think Merriam-Webster will go too far with any new product lines. Did you know they have a Thesaurus?

user227867

Yes, I really hate thesauruses.

Tonepoet

The only reason I dislike them is that people use them instead of dictionaries, rather than with them. XP

user227867

I checked out the font in the Compact edition of OED. It is really not readable without the magnifier.

user227867

The Wikipedia page on the OED has a demonstration of the size.

user227867

But in case you want to get it, bookdepository.com currently has a very good price.

user227867

12:19

It still costs several hundred dollars though.

Tonepoet

I'd buy it used off of ebay for a third of that price, if not less if I really wanted it badly.

user227867

Unboxing the American Heritage Dictionary

►

Tonepoet

What do you think about the page margins on each side though?

user227867

Hmm, it's not too bad, considering there are pictures on almost every page.

user227867

It is time for the British to make a British Heritage Dictionary that is equally beautiful.

user227867

12:28

I am going to eat dinner, bye.

RegDwigнt

12:40

0

Q: How can I rewrite the sentence correctly?

I have a beautiful sentence from another guy as Recently, several joint first and second schemes have been proposed to strike a good balance between throughput and complexity. It describes the benefit of a joint between this two schemes. Inspired by the above sentence. I want to rewrite it ...

WHAT

Færd

> ... several joint first and second schemes ...

= ... several joint schemes of the first and second kind ...

RegDwigнt

Not necessarily so.

Færd

True. Because we don't know what first and second refers to.

RegDwigнt

Actually, probably necessarily not so.

Færd

I wouldn't go so far.

RegDwigнt

12:48

For your meaning, the order would have to be different.

For your meaning, it must be "several first and second joint schemes".

At any rate, it's a horrible sentence that means nothing.

Færd

Maybe it's first and second schemes that are joined. Then the order is correct.

But maybe something else is wrong.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I hate alphabetical thesauruses

RegDwigнt

It doesn't matter. The sentence does not matter. It is but an inspiration. For another sentence that the author is looking for.

Færd

The OP should be prompted to provide context and clarify what they mean.

RegDwigнt

The question is, "I feel inspired by the Bible. How can I rewrite it using another word".

Mitch

12:51

That's a lofty goal

RegDwigнt

If the inspired bit weren't there, I would have guessed what they are really after is "what is the meaning of this sentence, expressed in other words".

But since they are already inspired by the meaning of the sentence, that can't be it.

@Mitch I submit that my proposed rewording still works in that case as well.

I.e. to rewrite the Bible using another word, try "bollocks".

Mitch

To do it in one word would be showing off.

RegDwigнt

That's what I'm here for.

Færd

Maybe they're ashamed to confess they don't know what it means. Because how that sentence can be perceived as "beautiful"?

RegDwigнt

Well yes. Someone who actually understands the sentence would never call it beautiful.

But that's a tangent. In that case the question is off-topic as gen-ref. Take a dictionary and look up the words. And if you want to reword it using other words, use the words from the dictionary definitions, or consult a thesaurus.

Mitch

12:56

@RegDwigнt Holy crap, you're also plagiarising. Portrait of an artist as a young joint scheme proposer.

Færd

Or explain why the meaning of the sentence is curious and worthy of discussion.

RegDwigнt

@Mitch Good writers steal.

Excellent writers steal portraits.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt You forgot to steal that quote

RegDwigнt

I didn't. You forgot to look in my safe.

Mitch

It's closed. It's writing advice.

The discussion might be if we should offer writing advice...who cares about having definitive answers.

RegDwigнt

12:58

My advice is not to write. If you ever need writing advice, then what you actually need is reading advice.

2

Do not write a word until you've read all the words written by others. That should be sufficient training.

It should also be a requirement for participating in the internet.

Aug 4 '15 at 11:14, by RegDwigнt

We should really have the close reason "If you have to ask this, you must not be writing, you must be reading. Do not write a word until you've read enough to answer this question yourself".

Mitch

@RegDwigнt I did not forget. I never had that idea to begin with.

RegDwigнt

Not your fault. That's just how safe my safe is.

Mitch

A picture is worth a thousand words. 1001 words is worth more than a picture. That's math

If a picture is not worth a thousand words, then it is not worth it.

RegDwigнt

A picture is only worth a thousand words if you're a woman. A man could describe it in one sentence.

Mitch

That's how dumb sentences are

A poem shows a words worth.

How to work Byron and Shelley into there I don't know.

RegDwigнt

13:08

Go to Amazon and buy a poem. Very soon after you'll shelley experience byron's remorse.

user227867

I just ate some noodles.

user227867

Hello @xxxxxx! Hope you return to the site soon!

Matt E. Эллен

13:29

@Mitch I care

RegDwigнt

@MattE.Эллен oh we have you covered alright. Here's a definite answer for you: use a pen and some paper.

Matt E. Эллен

some paper? could you define you much paper?

@JasperLoy me too! different noodles, though

RegDwigнt

Yes. Use important documents. I can't stress that enough.

Would I Lie to You Important Documents

►

Matt E. Эллен

do you do all your writing with a ouija board?

RegDwigнt

Magic 8 ball says, no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇